Almost ready
 

As they say, "the best laid plans..."

Frankly, this seems to me like a rather "head in the sand" attitude. What you
"plan" to do and what actually ends up happening can be two entirely different
thngs. A classic example is summer thunderstorms. They can pop up in minutes on an
otherwise benign day and strike with tremendous violence. Offshore storms can
cause huge waves on a calm day. Wind conditions can change dramatically in a short
period of time. Boat wakes are yet another example of an uncontrollable factor.
Even using your best judgement, you will eventually find yourself in conditions
that you didn't plan for, since you cannot control your paddling environment.

Why would you intentionally not teach your kids to roll? Aside from the fact that
it would make them - and you - safer, they would probably get a kick out of it.
I'll bet they'd make a game out of learning and executing rolls. On top of that,
rolling is useful for cooling off on hot days.

Being more skilled than necessary for the conditions in not a liability, but being
less skilled than necessary certainly is.

--
Regards

Brian



Ed Edelenbos wrote:

Seakayaker wrote:


In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA



While I agree that texts can useful tool in learning about kayaking, I'd
also say to think through the conditions you will be going out in. And,
use a little common sense. If it looks too rough, it is. That is to
say, if you are not comfortable with the conditions when you set out,
you should assume they will not improve. There is always tomorrow. I
have never taught my kids to roll... I never plan to. I never plan to
be out in conditions where it will be necessary. I've taught them how
to right and climb back in the boats All of our boats have positive
floatation and they know to get back to the boat. They also know a few
of the signals from my SCUBA days... if you are ok, tap your head, if
not, wave your arm. They know to not worry about even their most
precious possession on the boat... And, (after 30 years of not wearing
a life jacket) I have a rule that everyone on the boat must.

Knowing and "training" for the conditions you plan to see is important.
If you are driving across country, learning to drive in a NASCAR race
is going to be of little help... in the same way, if you are kayaking
across a lake, practicing white water maneuvers is not what you need.

Ed

Almost ready
 

Brian Nystrom writes:

As they say, "the best laid plans..."

Frankly, this seems to me like a rather "head in the sand" attitude. What you
"plan" to do and what actually ends up happening can be two entirely different
thngs. A classic example is summer thunderstorms. They can pop up in minutes on an
otherwise benign day and strike with tremendous violence. Offshore storms can
cause huge waves on a calm day. Wind conditions can change dramatically in a short
period of time. Boat wakes are yet another example of an uncontrollable factor.
Even using your best judgement, you will eventually find yourself in conditions
that you didn't plan for, since you cannot control your paddling environment.

Why would you intentionally not teach your kids to roll? Aside from the fact that
it would make them - and you - safer, they would probably get a kick out of it.
I'll bet they'd make a game out of learning and executing rolls. On top of that,
rolling is useful for cooling off on hot days.

Being more skilled than necessary for the conditions in not a liability, but being
less skilled than necessary certainly is.

Apologies for the long quote, but Brian said it well. I've
encountered this "no need to roll so I shouldn't teach it" attitude
before, and I find it a bit puzzling. There is the IMO rather
convoluted argument that having a skill such as rolling can make you
overconfident and prone to go into risky situations...but this
doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think you can quantify
the effects of attitude like this, so it is just speculation. While
we're speculating, though, it seems more likely to me that if you're
the sort of person who ignores limits and consequences, or is
oblivious to them, it doesn't really matter what skills you have or
don't have, you'll tend to go beyond whatever's safe for you.

It all comes down to the question of judgment. If your judgment is
sound, you ought to be safe, whatever your skill level is -- if only
because your judgment will keep you sitting on shore on days when a
more skilled person could safely go on the water. But no one's
judgment is 100% perfect, all the time. As Brian pointed out,
conditions can change suddenly. His example of the summer
thunderstorm is an excellent one. What's the answer: to refrain
from ever boating on hot summer days? To never venture more than a
hundred feet from shore, so that you won't "have to roll"?
Reentries don't always work either. They're a tool, just like a
roll, and the more tools you have, the better the chance that at
least one of 'em will work.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Almost ready
 

Mary Malmros wrote:


It all comes down to the question of judgment. If your judgment is
sound, you ought to be safe, whatever your skill level is -- if only
because your judgment will keep you sitting on shore on days when a
more skilled person could safely go on the water. But no one's
judgment is 100% perfect, all the time. As Brian pointed out,
conditions can change suddenly. His example of the summer
thunderstorm is an excellent one. What's the answer: to refrain
from ever boating on hot summer days? To never venture more than a
hundred feet from shore, so that you won't "have to roll"?
Reentries don't always work either. They're a tool, just like a
roll, and the more tools you have, the better the chance that at
least one of 'em will work.


I'll still disagree with you and Brian on this...

A prudent boater will be aware of their surroundings, limitations and
abilities and act accordingly. I will never need to roll. Period. I
know my boat and it's limitations and capabilities. Ever try to roll a
Necky Gannet II? You aren't going to do it. I also know me and my
capabilities and limitations. The creek and lake where my boating is
done is no more than a mile wide. Having been out on boats for 40 of my
45 years, I can look up and see a storm coming. If you can't, you have
no business being out on a boat. I know I can get to shore. If the
storm is too close, I'm not going out. PERIOD.

It has nothing to do with more or less skilled boaters.

It boils down to what an individual wants out of the experience. If you
are interested in rolling, and fast water, and all of that... it is
what you should persue. I don't see the fascination... I never have.
I may, but I don't think I ever will. Kayaking is a leisure activity
for me. I get plenty of exercise in other aspects of my life. When the
kids are a little bigger, I'll make sure they know it is available and
if they are interested, I'll get them the appropriate training. For now
we all wear life jackets, we all know how to get in and out of the boat
and that is what we need. For anyone to assume the needs (or wants) of
another is ludicrous.

Besides, I use sponsons.

Ed

Almost ready
 

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
..

Besides, I use sponsons.

Then why bother wearing the PFD's. You'll never need to use them, just
like you'll never need to roll.

Steve

Almost ready
 

"Seakayaker" wrote in message
m...

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
.

Besides, I use sponsons.

Then why bother wearing the PFD's.

Pockets...

Almost ready
 

Just to clarify my hastily written (and perhaps a bit wrecklessly
worded) previous message...

I do get the fascination of the thrill seeking end of kayaking... it
just isn't what I'm into. I don't think there is anything wrong with
it... or any aspect of kayaking. I understand the skills and could
(with lots of practice) do them if I was interested. Lately, I've been
using a power boat to tow several smaller boats to the "lake"...
kayaks, a sailboat, a rowboat, etc. I use the power boat as a "base
camp" and pick and choose what I'm going to do on a given day. Pretty
often I stand watch on the power boat and let the kids do their own
thing... and stay ready to dive in or motor over to anyone who might
need assistance. It is just the experience I want out of it. It is no
more or less valid than what any of y'all want... it is just different,
like all of us. But for any of you to presume what any of the others
need is just (IMO) wrong. It's a big world with lots of possiblities
and we each pick what is right for ourselves.

Ed

Seakayaker wrote:
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
.

Besides, I use sponsons.


Then why bother wearing the PFD's. You'll never need to use them, just
like you'll never need to roll.

Steve

Almost ready
 

Just out of curiosity, for what do you use your sponsons?

Reaming out your car exhaust pipe?

Beating your dog mercifully?

Rolling out your pie shells?

Stirring the stew?

Shooing cattle out of the road?

Flipping cold pancakes into the campfire?

Waving to friends out the car window?

Flipping the bird (or is this too ancient a reference for the newsgroup) ?

Surely not keeping your canoe upright !!!

Sign me,

Puzzled boater in NW WA.

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
Just to clarify my hastily written (and perhaps a bit wrecklessly
worded) previous message...

I do get the fascination of the thrill seeking end of kayaking... it
just isn't what I'm into. I don't think there is anything wrong with
it... or any aspect of kayaking. I understand the skills and could
(with lots of practice) do them if I was interested. Lately, I've been
using a power boat to tow several smaller boats to the "lake"...
kayaks, a sailboat, a rowboat, etc. I use the power boat as a "base
camp" and pick and choose what I'm going to do on a given day. Pretty
often I stand watch on the power boat and let the kids do their own
thing... and stay ready to dive in or motor over to anyone who might
need assistance. It is just the experience I want out of it. It is no
more or less valid than what any of y'all want... it is just different,
like all of us. But for any of you to presume what any of the others
need is just (IMO) wrong. It's a big world with lots of possiblities
and we each pick what is right for ourselves.

Ed

Seakayaker wrote:
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
.

Besides, I use sponsons.


Then why bother wearing the PFD's. You'll never need to use them, just
like you'll never need to roll.

Steve

Almost ready
 

John Q Adams wrote:
Just out of curiosity, for what do you use your sponsons?

Basically, the only intended use is comic relief.

Although, with the right drill bit that bird flipping sounds like a
winner. (grin) (Some of us are old enough...)

Ed



Reaming out your car exhaust pipe?

Beating your dog mercifully?

Rolling out your pie shells?

Stirring the stew?

Shooing cattle out of the road?

Flipping cold pancakes into the campfire?

Waving to friends out the car window?

Flipping the bird (or is this too ancient a reference for the newsgroup) ?

Surely not keeping your canoe upright !!!

Sign me,

Puzzled boater in NW WA.

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...

Just to clarify my hastily written (and perhaps a bit wrecklessly
worded) previous message...

I do get the fascination of the thrill seeking end of kayaking... it
just isn't what I'm into. I don't think there is anything wrong with
it... or any aspect of kayaking. I understand the skills and could
(with lots of practice) do them if I was interested. Lately, I've been
using a power boat to tow several smaller boats to the "lake"...
kayaks, a sailboat, a rowboat, etc. I use the power boat as a "base
camp" and pick and choose what I'm going to do on a given day. Pretty
often I stand watch on the power boat and let the kids do their own
thing... and stay ready to dive in or motor over to anyone who might
need assistance. It is just the experience I want out of it. It is no
more or less valid than what any of y'all want... it is just different,
like all of us. But for any of you to presume what any of the others
need is just (IMO) wrong. It's a big world with lots of possiblities
and we each pick what is right for ourselves.

Ed

Seakayaker wrote:

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote in message
...
.


Besides, I use sponsons.


Then why bother wearing the PFD's. You'll never need to use them, just
like you'll never need to roll.

Steve

Almost ready
 

Ed Edelenbos writes:

Mary Malmros wrote:


It all comes down to the question of judgment. If your judgment is
sound, you ought to be safe, whatever your skill level is -- if only
because your judgment will keep you sitting on shore on days when a
more skilled person could safely go on the water. But no one's
judgment is 100% perfect, all the time. As Brian pointed out,
conditions can change suddenly. His example of the summer
thunderstorm is an excellent one. What's the answer: to refrain
from ever boating on hot summer days? To never venture more than a
hundred feet from shore, so that you won't "have to roll"?
Reentries don't always work either. They're a tool, just like a
roll, and the more tools you have, the better the chance that at
least one of 'em will work.


I'll still disagree with you and Brian on this...

A prudent boater will be aware of their surroundings, limitations and
abilities and act accordingly. I will never need to roll.
Period.

I'm not sure where your disagreement is coming from. I never said
or suggested that everyone needs to roll. The only time that you
need ANY skill is if that skill is the only thing that can save you
from the sort of trouble you really can't afford. There are some
kinds of paddling where you need to roll. There are others where
you don't need to roll, strictly speaking, but where a roll has a
better chance of saving you than other recovery methods. If you
stay away from those kinds of situations, you have no need to
roll.

I
know my boat and it's limitations and capabilities. Ever try to roll a
Necky Gannet II? You aren't going to do it.

Not without some special outfitting, that's for sure!

I also know me and my
capabilities and limitations. The creek and lake where my boating is
done is no more than a mile wide. Having been out on boats for 40 of my
45 years, I can look up and see a storm coming. If you can't, you have
no business being out on a boat.

And you, perhaps, have no business judging other locales by the way
things are in your creek and lake. I do most of my boating in river
gorges where the view of the sky is very limited, and where the
steep-sided gorge walls create some very strange weather patterns.
I've gotten to where I can read 'em pretty well, and have yet to be
caught out, but a lot of non-locals aren't so lucky. When the
weather is getting that look, I let People From Away know. I
_don't_ go paddling up to 'em and announce, "You have no business
being out on a boat!"

[snip]
It boils down to what an individual wants out of the experience. If you
are interested in rolling, and fast water, and all of that... it is
what you should persue. I don't see the fascination... I never have.
I may, but I don't think I ever will. Kayaking is a leisure activity
for me.

It is for me, too. I just like my leisure to raise my pulse a wee
bit ;-)

I get plenty of exercise in other aspects of my life. When the
kids are a little bigger, I'll make sure they know it is available and
if they are interested, I'll get them the appropriate training. For now
we all wear life jackets, we all know how to get in and out of the boat
and that is what we need. For anyone to assume the needs (or wants) of
another is ludicrous.

No one made any such assumption that I could see.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.