Square stern canoes
 

My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea, any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue

Square stern canoes
 

I have a Coleman plastic canoe and my brother has a Grumman (sp?)
aluminum. He has a nice storebought bracket and both electric (MinnKota
28 lb thrust) and an ancient Neptune 1.5 HP gas. I took a piece of
angle iron and bolted to on to the gunwhales and bolted a piece of
treated 1 by and a matching piece of 1/2" treated ply on. I have a
MinnKota (28 lb thrust) and a Cruise N Carry 2.7 HP gas. We have both
gone out alone and with 1 extra adult or 2 40-60 lb children. The
electric motors have about a 2 hr range at top speed with one battery
onboard... the gas motors are a little longer (about 2.5 hrs at full
speed w/ full tank of 1/3 gal and a small spare gas tank weighs a lot
less than an extra battery.)

In light weather, the MinnKota is OK. It isn't fast... faster than
either of us can sustain paddling but not flying. If there is wind,
sometimes it is an effort to steer and beat the wind. With the gas
motors, both move at a pretty good speed even in moderate wind and steer
easier. I would not want much more than the 2.7 gas motor. The Coleman
seems to ride a bit flatter (i.e. no nose up) when riding solo.

I have not tried any squarebacks but I'd think they should go a bit
better under power but I'm not sure how the square back would affect
paddling performance...

Ed


Ronald Donahue wrote:
My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea, any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue

Square stern canoes
 

I bought an Evergreen Sportsman (square stern) canoe last year with
the intention of mounting a MinnKota electric trolling motor. When
mounted on the transom, the handle is too far back to reach
comfortably and is centred behind my spine - not a practical position.
What I've done is design a mount similar to Old Town's motor mount,
using a 1"x3" wooden bar clamped across the gunwales (just behind the
rear seat) with a 2"x4" block to hold the motor's mounting bracket.
This brings the motor's handle forward and to the side to make for a
more comfortable operating position.

https://www.oldtowncanoe.com/catalog...6&section_id=4

As a safety precaution to avoid damage to the motor or canoe, attach
the 2"x4" block to the cross bar with a hinge (instead of screws or
bolts) so the motor will swing up if an underwater obstruction is
encountered.

ExPatBrit


On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:52:15 GMT, "Ronald Donahue"
wrote:

My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea, any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue

Square stern canoes
 

Here is just another thing to think about. I had a coleman square stern and was
able to do quite well with a pair of oars. With little effort, I could clip
right along, reguardless of weather or load. I hate the loud sound of motors
and I found this very satisfying. Good luck.

Tom,
Tucson

Square stern canoes
 

That is certainly something to think about... my Cruise N Carry is air
cooled. It makes one hell of a racket. The battery motor is nice and
quiet but doesn't have the range.

Ed

TWall10618 wrote:
Here is just another thing to think about. I had a coleman square stern and was
able to do quite well with a pair of oars. With little effort, I could clip
right along, reguardless of weather or load. I hate the loud sound of motors
and I found this very satisfying. Good luck.

Tom,
Tucson

Square stern canoes
 

I've run both a 19' SS Grumman and a 17 Chestnut Prospector with a
side-mount. The Grumman was exceptionally more comfortable, carried a much,
much bigger load, was faster, and did I mention more comfortable? But....
what do you already own? If you have a regular canoe a side-mount 2 1/2 - 4
hp motor does quite well and increases your range considerably. I made mine
from some local birch and had to add a flap of birch bark to stop cavitation
(when the prop can't move any water due to hull stream conflict), but made
many trips on the Yukon with it. It could run upriver a good deal faster
than I could paddle against the current.
One word of advice: if you do decide to get a Grumman SS, avoid the 17'
model; the 19' model is ten-times the boat. You can also go with a Coleman
SS, but it won't stand up over time.
Padeen


"Ronald Donahue" wrote in message
...
My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or
we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard
motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea,
any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue

Square stern canoes
 

We currently have an Old Town Laker 16 purchased in 1976 it has stood up
well and is a good all around canoe. LL Bean has a bracket for $45 so maybe
I'll just buy one and pickup a 2.5 hp motor. I appreciate everyone's input.

Ron Donahue


"padeen" wrote in message
...
I've run both a 19' SS Grumman and a 17 Chestnut Prospector with a
side-mount. The Grumman was exceptionally more comfortable, carried a
much,
much bigger load, was faster, and did I mention more comfortable? But....
what do you already own? If you have a regular canoe a side-mount 2 1/2 -
4
hp motor does quite well and increases your range considerably. I made
mine
from some local birch and had to add a flap of birch bark to stop
cavitation
(when the prop can't move any water due to hull stream conflict), but made
many trips on the Yukon with it. It could run upriver a good deal faster
than I could paddle against the current.
One word of advice: if you do decide to get a Grumman SS, avoid the 17'
model; the 19' model is ten-times the boat. You can also go with a
Coleman
SS, but it won't stand up over time.
Padeen

Square stern canoes
 

"Ronald Donahue" wrote in message
...
We currently have an Old Town Laker 16 purchased in 1976 it has stood up
well and is a good all around canoe. LL Bean has a bracket for $45 so
maybe
I'll just buy one and pickup a 2.5 hp motor. I appreciate everyone's
input.


Ron,

I have one of Bean's wooden canoe motor mounts and have used it with great
success on an old, flat-bottomed White canoe from Old Town. I've used the
mount with a Johnson 2HP outboard and a MinnKota 3HP electric.

Happy motoring,
Bob Scott




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Square stern canoes
 

Bob,

Thank you. Do you find that the 2hp Johnson and MinnKota 3hp electric have
sufficient power against a headwind. One of the trips that brought this idea
of a motor about was a trip to lake Umbagog in New Hampshire/Maine, after
paddling several miles to look at the birds the wind came up and we found
ourselves with several hours of hard paddling into a brutal headwind to get
back to the car. When we were younger this would have been an interesting
challenger but now it's just a pain in the butt followed by several days of
sore muscles.

Ron


"Bob" wrote in message
...
Ron,

I have one of Bean's wooden canoe motor mounts and have used it with great
success on an old, flat-bottomed White canoe from Old Town. I've used the
mount with a Johnson 2HP outboard and a MinnKota 3HP electric.

Happy motoring,
Bob Scott




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Square stern canoes
 

"Ronald Donahue" wrote in message
...
Bob,

Thank you. Do you find that the 2hp Johnson and MinnKota 3hp electric have
sufficient power against a headwind.

Yes. Although, like with manual paddling power, a strong headwind will
certainly reduce the forward speed. If the headwind is REALLY strong, you
can always paddle to augment the engine!

My favorite of the two is the little Johnson gas engine. Even with spare
fuel, it weighs less than the combination of the MinnKota and deep cycle
battery. Although it's called a "2HP," the actual rating is about 1.2HP.
It is water-cooled and has a small built-in tank that will provide enough
fuel for hours of trolling (my use for the motor). I usually bring a 20-oz.
soda bottle of pre-mix along to provide extended running times.

Good paddling (or happy motoring),
Bob




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Square stern canoes
 

I usually bring a 20-oz.
soda bottle of pre-mix along to provide extended running times.



Ouch! Soda bottle is definitely not a Coast Guard approved fuel container, more like a Molatov Cocktail! Pretty sure that if conservation/marine patrol folks ever spotted this, they wouldn't be real happy.

I also have a 2 HP Yamaha (underwater exhaust, 100 to 1 fuel to oil
ratio, very quiet...I love it but usually just paddle unless I need to
cover a lot of distance) and carry a 1 gallon poly fuel can. Enough
for a weekend and little chance of accidental breakage.


Have fun,
doug m

Square stern canoes
 

Ronald Donahue wrote:

My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea, any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue




As others have suggested, the overall size/carrying capacity of your
'final' canoe need to be the first consideration. I've had canoes from
12' - 20'. Have a 20' Old Town XL Tripper and woldn't dream of going
back. There's a sturdy aircraft-aluminum + oak side mount. If I'm using
the outboard, I have a 45# counterweight that straddles the opposite
gunwale; I move it forward or aft as need be for trim depending on
placement of load, passengers, etc. I've never had a problem with this
canoe with motor or sans motor in any water so long as I reconignize the
limits of the given moment & act accordingly. Even though some waters in
northern Maine have a 10 h.p. limit, it's widely known that some river
guides will use 15 h.p. motors on their XLs with a 10 h.p. cover. Far
too much motor for me, but I don't even need the 10; I get great power,
economy & service from an ancient Evinrude 6. I've had up to 3 h.p. on a
16' Lincoln with satisfactory results. So far as square stern is
concerned, I wouldn't do it myself (your mileage may vary) since the
square end instantly obviates one basic attribute of the canoe - it's
hopefully symmetrical below the waterline for whatever load or water you
find yourself in. In fact, in most square-enders the propeller's
backwash against the transom will eat up a good portion of your
outboard's power. Note here that the 20' - 22' square-end Scott &
similar canoes that are designed specifically for heavy loads & heavy
water all have a bit of "clipper ship" (basically this means there is a
keel-like protrusion which maintains much of the underwater symmetry)
effect below the transom to avoid the backwash experienced on smaller
square-end canoes. In addition, if a square-ender is only 18' - 20' the
nature of the beast will give some balance & loading problems
interfering with comfortable and decent control over the motor while
maintaining good trim, even in easy water. All else being equal, they're
clumsy because of the motor placement & the needed boardinghouse reach
required of the operator. I've found that the side-mount properly
counterbalanced (a fairly easy task - even shifting your duffel about
will often suffice) gives superior balance & control.

Bottom line to all my blathering: the canoe is basically symetrical from
end to end. There's a very good reason for that. Maintain that symmetry
for best results in any canoe.

Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pete Hilton (Reg. Me. Guide) aka The Ent

--
If the assumptions are wrong, the
conclusions aren't likely to be very good.
R. E. Machol

Square stern canoes
 

Bob wrote:

I usually bring a 20-oz.
soda bottle of pre-mix along to provide extended running times.




For even moderate gas-oil consumption, a 2-gal heavy duty poly gas can
from Wally World is only coupla-three bucks & is far better suited to
toting flammables. In fact, they're intended basically for carrying
chainsaw & similar mix. Come w/ pouring spout, too. Much safer & less
likely to garner a warning (or citation) from a passing ranger.

Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pet Hilton (Reg. Me. Guide) aka The Ent

--
If the assumptions are wrong, the
conclusions aren't likely to be very good.
R. E. Machol

Square stern canoes
 

An XL Tripper with a side mount; now there's a nice rig, I'm sure. I can
see a 6 HP gas OB making this a very versatile package.

On the other hand, I think much of your information about square-stern drag
is incorrect, the drag being either negligible or nonexistent, except
perhaps for "canoes" with a broad transom, or very poor lines. My
experience is primarily from a 19' Grumman SS, whose stern had, when
correctly loaded and run, virtually no drag (despite its rather crude
lines), stability was not a problem, and even driving from the rear with a
very light load, it needs only a spare 5gal gas can on the forward deck to
keep it running flat.

As to contortionists training, I preferred to run mine from the front seat,
using a pole connected to the end of a Gill's extension handle with a
u-joint consisting of an S link held in place on the Gills handle and a
snap-link locked in place on the pole. This gave both throttle and
direction control from the front seat for about $18. With a 3' board stuck
between the seat and the thwart behind, one could cruise in great comfort.
Add a cuddy over the front bay with either small poles and visqueen or a
tarp and it can be quite cozy as well. This, of course, is no longer what
I'd call a "canoe", but a poor man's riverboat.

Brad


"Peter H" wrote in message
...
Ronald Donahue wrote:

My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or
we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard
motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea,
any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue




As others have suggested, the overall size/carrying capacity of your
'final' canoe need to be the first consideration. I've had canoes from
12' - 20'. Have a 20' Old Town XL Tripper and woldn't dream of going
back. There's a sturdy aircraft-aluminum + oak side mount. If I'm using
the outboard, I have a 45# counterweight that straddles the opposite
gunwale; I move it forward or aft as need be for trim depending on
placement of load, passengers, etc. I've never had a problem with this
canoe with motor or sans motor in any water so long as I reconignize the
limits of the given moment & act accordingly. Even though some waters in
northern Maine have a 10 h.p. limit, it's widely known that some river
guides will use 15 h.p. motors on their XLs with a 10 h.p. cover. Far
too much motor for me, but I don't even need the 10; I get great power,
economy & service from an ancient Evinrude 6. I've had up to 3 h.p. on a
16' Lincoln with satisfactory results. So far as square stern is
concerned, I wouldn't do it myself (your mileage may vary) since the
square end instantly obviates one basic attribute of the canoe - it's
hopefully symmetrical below the waterline for whatever load or water you
find yourself in. In fact, in most square-enders the propeller's
backwash against the transom will eat up a good portion of your
outboard's power. Note here that the 20' - 22' square-end Scott &
similar canoes that are designed specifically for heavy loads & heavy
water all have a bit of "clipper ship" (basically this means there is a
keel-like protrusion which maintains much of the underwater symmetry)
effect below the transom to avoid the backwash experienced on smaller
square-end canoes. In addition, if a square-ender is only 18' - 20' the
nature of the beast will give some balance & loading problems
interfering with comfortable and decent control over the motor while
maintaining good trim, even in easy water. All else being equal, they're
clumsy because of the motor placement & the needed boardinghouse reach
required of the operator. I've found that the side-mount properly
counterbalanced (a fairly easy task - even shifting your duffel about
will often suffice) gives superior balance & control.

Bottom line to all my blathering: the canoe is basically symetrical from
end to end. There's a very good reason for that. Maintain that symmetry
for best results in any canoe.

Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pete Hilton (Reg. Me. Guide) aka The Ent

--
If the assumptions are wrong, the
conclusions aren't likely to be very good.
R. E. Machol

Square stern canoes
 

padeen wrote:

An XL Tripper with a side mount; now there's a nice rig, I'm sure. I can
see a 6 HP gas OB making this a very versatile package.

Of the many canoes & outboards I've owned, this is for me the best
compromise of maneuverability, carrying capacity & reliability.


On the other hand, I think much of your information about square-stern drag
is incorrect, the drag being either negligible or nonexistent,

I'll agree that the loss of symmetry & the presence of a transom would
not have any huge reduction in efficiency. But you might discuss with
the Scott people just why they bother to maintain as narrow a line as
possible below the waterline and keep all of the transom out of the
water - their canoes are famed through Canada & the northeast as true
workhorses for heavy conditions &/or outfitters who need every bit of
"traditional" canoe attributes they can get.

I preferred to run mine from the front seat,
using a pole connected to the end of a Gill's extension handle with a
u-joint consisting of an S link held in place on the Gills handle and a
snap-link locked in place on the pole. This gave both throttle and
direction control from the front seat for about $18.



This would be great on many lakes & wider rivers where one is just "loafing along" regardless of propulsion method. But in white water, bony water, etc. this arrangement would be a handicap rather than an asset.


Pete H

--
If the assumptions are wrong, the
conclusions aren't likely to be very good.
R. E. Machol

Square stern canoes
 

"Peter H" wrote in message
...
padeen wrote:

An XL Tripper with a side mount; now there's a nice rig, I'm sure. I can
see a 6 HP gas OB making this a very versatile package.

Of the many canoes & outboards I've owned, this is for me the best
compromise of maneuverability, carrying capacity & reliability.


On the other hand, I think much of your information about square-stern
drag
is incorrect, the drag being either negligible or nonexistent,

I'll agree that the loss of symmetry & the presence of a transom would
not have any huge reduction in efficiency. But you might discuss with
the Scott people just why they bother to maintain as narrow a line as
possible below the waterline and keep all of the transom out of the
water - their canoes are famed through Canada & the northeast as true
workhorses for heavy conditions &/or outfitters who need every bit of
"traditional" canoe attributes they can get.

I preferred to run mine from the front seat,
using a pole connected to the end of a Gill's extension handle with a
u-joint consisting of an S link held in place on the Gills handle and a
snap-link locked in place on the pole. This gave both throttle and
direction control from the front seat for about $18.



This would be great on many lakes & wider rivers where one is just
"loafing along" regardless of propulsion method. But in white water, bony
water, etc. this arrangement would be a handicap rather than an asset.



Pete's right that this set-up has compromises. Also, he's right about the
drag on the transom in standard square-stern canoes. OTOH, if you ever can
come across a proper Grand Lake Streamer, its a completely symmetric canoe
hull with the end cut off, so the transom is above the waterline. No drag,
and a duffel in the stern will keep the boat trim while you sit in the back
seat. They don't make them, IIRC, but you can find them.

--riverman

Square stern canoes
 

a 3hp outboard will move the canoe at hull speed. any larger motor will
just waste gas as the canoe tries to climb over its bow wave. my father
had a 3hp outboard on a 16 ft canoe which he loaded down with lots of food
and equipment when prospecting.

its true that running a motor on a square stern 16 ft canoe is
uncomfortable due to turning around to hold the handle. stern mounted
motors are better on 20 ft and longer canoes.

I've found a sail a very good solution to strong head winds on the small
boats I've built specifically for paddling and sailing. I can stay out
when other paddlers have given up. Although sailing is a lot of fun it
would not be as practical as a motoring for most people. At one time,
before motors were available, sails for canoes were quite popular.

"Ronald Donahue" ) writes:
My wife and I have been paddling canoes for the past 30 years and kayaks
for the last 3 but sometimes the places we want to go are just too far or we
get tired of fighting the wind so I'm thinking or getting a square stern
canoe or maybe one of those brackets that you can put a small outboard motor
on. Anybody have experience with this type of set up or a better idea, any
suggestions?

Thanks

Ron Donahue




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