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sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 28-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: there's *nothing* I haven't tried in 6 foot or higher waves. what millponds do you paddle in? 6 foot waves are for children. we get wakes on the canal higher than that. Still bull****ting, huh willy? what it says in the subject line Not to mention the wonderful bucket seat in the Ellesmere. a small concession to comfort. I did like the lower back support on some of the kayaks I tried. few had any above the hips. Long, narrow hulls don't roll in waves the way wide stable kayaks do. That's why deployed sponsons are a bad idea in rough conditions. Not rolling means more stability in rough conditions. hull stability comes from both length and beam. a long fast boat can be just as stable as a short beamy boat. older sailboats were long and narrow but heavy. moderns sailboats are light and beamy. the apddling and sailing boat I built with the sponsons on it is both narrow and short. no sponons, no renetry. Round bottom hulls have _no_ initial stability. If the shape doesn't change with angle of heel, there is no position that is more stable. This makes for a very tippy kayak = not safe. round bottom boats with sponsons above the waterline have both superior wave riding and plenty of reserve bouyancy. If you visit my website but leave off the "/top.htm" you get an indexed list of all the files some of which are in any HTML references. Scroll down to files bluecanuxx.yyy to see text and photos describing a boat I made by sawing completely round 55 gal blue plastic barrels in half and mounting sponsons on the gunwales and read about the stability tests. Hard chined kayaks typically have excellent secondary stability and are rock solid in the roughest conditions. That is what the eastern Canadian and Greenland Inuit used and they could have made their kayaks any way they wanted. you've fallen into the "traditional" trap. there's no indication they even imagined round bottom boats. let alone tried and descarded them. with little in the way of framing material to work with it was materials which shaped the boat as is the case with all native craft. I wasn't there either but I still have the better argument. Waves catch on chines before they catch on sponsons but how much difference that makes to very light displacement hulls like kayak I don't know. However, in longer kayaks the chines are also longer and more subject to wave action. Waves break when the length is 7 times the height. If the wave crests match the length of a 20 ft kayak they'll break at 3 ft approx. If the wave is cresting at one end of a 20 ft kayak and the wave trough is at the other end that's a 40 foot wave and it will break at 6 ft in height approx. In either case you should have got off the water before then. The worst boating situation is waves coming from more than one direction. You can fall right into a hole in the water. It has happened to me somewhat artificially in the 7.5 ft boat I have the sponsons on, caught between 2 ft powerboat wakes on a canal. The sides on the boat are 1 ft with a 4" draft leaving 9" of freeboard. The beam is 24" like a kayak (length 7.5 ft as mentioned). Boat didn't ship a drop. The boat sails in quite stong winds for its size in smaller waves. The key is to lower body weight (centre of gravity) which a kayak paddler cannot do sitting upright in a tiny cockpit. I can't see a kayak paddler riding out a storm sitting bolt upright in a narrow boat without sponsons unless he or she is really into rolling which I imagine would be exhausing. Better, I think to have a large cockpit you can lie down in. There have been kayaks, although homemade by boat desingers and not mass produced, in which one could recline, even sleep in overnight as Herreshoff did on his. V-bottoms track well with less weathercocking than round bottoms and are decently stable if the V is not to sharp. That means less fatigue and hence, more safety. fatigue = safety in boat design? that's a new argument. you rest when you get tired. that's safety no matter what boat you're in. I'm not sure about the V-bottom speed argument as round bottoms have least wetted surface per pound of displacement. That's just theory and I haven't any tank tests or computer simulations to support it. Stop trying to argue with kayakers about kayaks when you don't know anything about them. Stop trying to portray necessarily limited and subjective personal impression as fact. You seem to be arguing from a sea kayaking perspective using production boats (which are marketed on appearance as much as anything else). What's your experince with sponsons? I've used them with good results on two boats I've desinged and built for myself. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
John Fereira ) writes:
I went out on our local lake last year with a couple of friends on a day when there were some strong winds coming down the 40 mile long lake from the north. There were frequent 2-3' breaking waves. All three of us are experienced in and have practiced several different reentry techniques. We paddled about a mile out and decided to practice some re-entries. First we tried the "cowboy" rescue as described above. Even though my Outer Island is narrow (21"), has a very low rear deck, and a cockpit large enough to sit in before putting in my legs, I was unable to sucessfully get back in using a cowboy rescue after four attempts. was the problem, the narrow beam and cockpit? you have to push up right quick because the hull is least stable when you're sitting upright. perhaps its not a good technique for some people on those very narrow boats. I don't think I'd need to use a paddle brace but that's personal. After the fourth time capsizing before *almost* getting back into the cockpit, I grabbed my paddle float and was back in the cockpit in less than 30 seconds. Only one of the three of us managed to reenter his kayak and stay upright using a cowboy rescue that day. On flatter water all of us have sucessfully used a cowboy rescue to reenter many, many times. Usually, however, if we have capsized we just roll up or use and assisted eskimo rescue off a paddling partners bow. That's the way the easter Canadians, Greenlanders, Aluets, and Innuit have been doing it for generations. I guess you've never had any alligator wresting experience, there, sonny. I don't see you listed with the WRWF (World Reptile Wrestling Federation). "Cowboy"? What "cowboy"" What do dry dirty dusty cowboys know about getting back into boats they've fallen out of? Ever done any log rolling? I've never paddled around Iceland, and God only knows why anybody would want to. I'll bet even teh native don't do it any more, unless maybe offered large sums of money by tourists. Climbing in over the rear deck worked for me. It wasn't even a challenge. Maybe its all the swimming and water polo and getting in and out of the pool. I can understand why you'd want to go in a group of like-minded people (???) where you paddle but I'm strictly a solo paddler on the lakes and rivers of Ontario where waves and cold water are not unkown. In one of my less rational moments I did go out in a parka in December to see what it was like. I rely on myself to re-enter any boat I might fall out of. I don't know what experinece you've had with sponsons but I've found them usefull on two narrow boats, both of which had a 24" beam. Sponsons are used to avoid re-entry. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
On 31-Aug-2003, "Michael Daly" wrote:
Then kindly explain why there are plenty of examples of Inuit and Aleut craft that _do_ have round bottoms. The Netsiligmeot kayaks were used on lakes and rivers and were round bottomed. Aleut baidarkas and kayaks like the King Island were round bottomed. However, the Eastern Arctic paddlers, who specialized in sea mammal hunting in rough conditions chose the hard chine. An apology here - I mixed up "round bottom" and "round chine" in these examples. The Baidarkas and such of the western Arctic are round chined, not round bottomed. As such they don't have the stability issues of a round bottomed kayak. However, the point I'm trying to make is that the Inuit and Aleut can and did make a wide variety of boats and were clearly in a position to choose their designs according to their needs, contrary to what Willy-boy contends. Mike |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
Send him over and I'll put him to the test. Considering that you know next to nothing about kayaking, I fail to see how you're in a position to make any claims. as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else who has posted in this thread, and considerably more about sponsons on other boats. you are all talking from no experience at all and no knowledge that I can discern. As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in this thread who has actually used sponsons. and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done. additionaly, OF COURSE THERE ARE NO SIX FOOT WAKES ON THE RIDEAU CANAL. Its amazing how gullible, or more likely so wrapped up in their own self-importance, some people can be not to recognize when someone is pulling their leg. if there were 6 ft wakes they would suck the sunbathers off the beach on Mooney's Bay into deep water and drown them like kittens, and drastically reduce the value of waterfront property. geessh, get a life. I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away. yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle float without question. I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine. The other observation is I don't agree with the other poster that it's most likely that person would fall out of his or her kayak in rough water. Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons and distain paddling in normal conditions. This applies especially to sea kayaking because surveys of ocean sailors have shown that offshore cruisers encounter winds of 12-15 mph most of the time. Its what makes ocean cruising such a popular activity. Nobody enjoys being tossed around riding out storms at sea. If you spend most of your time in good boating conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often, when you least expect it. Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care to admit. I don't drink. Its that momentary lack of attention, the day dreaming from repetition and boredom that has done me in, not rough weather. This summer I saw one kayak paddle right over top of anther and the paddler fall out. There is no way he could have rolled out of that situtation. If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out. And as likely as not if startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry. Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag on wavetops. What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety. Everything to do with appearances. Bah. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
(William R. Watt) writes:
"Michael Daly" ) writes: Send him over and I'll put him to the test. Considering that you know next to nothing about kayaking, I fail to see how you're in a position to make any claims. as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else who has posted in this thread, and considerably more about sponsons on other boats. you are all talking from no experience at all and no knowledge that I can discern. As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in this thread who has actually used sponsons. I've also never attached theatrical risers to the sides of my car, but I don't intend to try that, either. Y'ever hear of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? Or maybe, "Not everybody has to try everything to know it's a bad idea"? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
Mary Malmros wrote in
: John Fereira writes: (William R. Watt) wrote in [snipster] but I'm strictly a solo paddler on the lakes and rivers of Ontario where waves and cold water are not unkown. The lake that I am describing is only about an hour and half south of Lake Ontario. Heh...you'll appreciate this, John, since you're from my same latitude and only a short ways west. Every summer, me and my buds head _north_ to Ontario for the warm-water paddling on the Ottawa River. The section we paddle is controlled by a top-release dam, and it's considerably warmer than the Deerfield, which is bottom-release. It feels like bath-water to us! A friend of mine from Ithaca goes up there quite often as well. Have you met a guy named Matt Stevens? Moral to that story, latitude is just _one_ factor influencing water temperature...and often, not the most important one. There's a similar scenario not far from here. I've gone flyfishing a bunch of times on a couple of rivers in the Catskills. Both the east and west branch of the Delaware river are tailwater rivers (fed from the bottom of a dam). The west branch is fed from Cannonsville reserveroir all summer but the feed into the east branch from Pepacton reservoir is reduced significantly. As a result, the water temperature goes up and many of the fish in the east branch move into the west branch. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
On 2-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: as it happens I know as much about sponson on kayaks as anyone else who has posted in this thread, You know how much I know about sponsons? Really? When did you ever go paddling with me when I was checking out a kayak with sponsons? Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in this long rambling discussion. You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse! I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of different kayak models. You experience may differ and you have no way of knowing what someone else tell about kayaks after trying a number of them. As I wrote earlier, you are writing from compatitively limited experience, It shows in what you contribute to the discussion. You also deomstrate a very competitive obsessive temperment, it that's any use to you. As far as I can tell I am THE ONLY person posting in this thread who has actually used sponsons. Probably because you haven't been paying attention to the others in these threads. You are not the only one and your experience with kayaks is trivial. and I've just as much experience re-entering kayaks. my one re-entry on a demo boat being more than most posting in this thread have done. One re-entry makes you an expert? "Expert" is not a word I would use for myself, and certainly not for you based on what you've written to date. That's your problem, willy-boy, you think you're an expert when you actually know nothing at all. Some of us practice re-entry techniques _frequently_ and even pay for pool time in the winter just to practice. I've practiced _many_ different techniques for re-entry, solo and assisted. That's why I _know_ you're full of ****. I'd like to make two observations. First, you complained that shoving a boat cushion under my hips to raise them and allow me to get them over the gunwale of my boat was inadvisable because the cushion might float away. yet you accept a kayka re-entry technique which depends on using a paddle float without question. No, that was Mary. You obviously don't know paddle float re-entry. In a standard paddle float re-entry, the paddle float is _attached_ to the paddle and the paddle to the kayak, so it isn't going to float away. Look up Sea Seats on the web. There are products sold for kayakers that do exactly what your seat cushion does, except that it's designed for rescue in rough conditions. I know kayakers who use them. I'd advise kayakers who are serious about re-entry to forget about re-entry aids and practice unaided re-entry until they can do it under any conditions with their eyes closed and one hand tied behind their back. That should meet your requirements. It meets mine. Which precludes the use of sponsons. No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid. This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a while. Too bad you don't pay attention. Yes I can re-enter a kayak and roll up with one hand tied behind my back. In fact I know several rolls that allow me to do that (butterfly roll, armpit roll, window shade roll, storm roll variation etc.) Only a few fanatics would paddle in rough conditions and then only occasionally unless they have become obsessed with rough weather conditons and distain paddling in normal conditions. Well this means a lot of us will stay home. The reason you want to paddle in rough conditions is because they happen a lot. Squalls on the Great Lakes come up fast - hell, even Lac des Chenes off Brittania Bay gets some good summer squalls. Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far enougth away to get to shore. At one of the evening demos I attended, in fact the one when I tried re-entering a kayak, the sales rep was concered about some thunder and lightning. She was reluctant to let me go out until I pointe out to her that the clouds were moving upriver, the cold front had passed, and the light and noise show was moving away, not toward us. Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option for sailing like it is for paddling. Any paddler that spends their paddling time in calm water assuming that all will be well is setting themselves up for a disaster. Every paddler should be comfortable in rough conditions. Besides, that's when paddling gets to be fun. And when my hard chine kayak really behaves well. Yep, and you are writing according to personal prefernce, not mine which I see as more wide ranging, or that of the general paddling public. "Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience. If you spend most of your time in good boating conditions then that's when you will fall out of your kayak most often, when you least expect it. Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your comments are based on ignorance. Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue yourself? Its a human thing, not a weather thing. I seldom go boating in rough weather and I've fallen out of boats more than I care to admit. You also brag about never taking lessons. Maybe if you learned something about boating, you'd fall out less. In many years of sailing, canoeing and kayaking, I've suffered no upsets in calm conditions. In fact the only upsets have been canoeing and kayaking in WW. If you were to paddle onto a submerged log or other debris you too could not roll the boat. You'd just fall out. I've paddled onto submerged and semi-submerged stuff (logs, rocks, ice etc) many times and never tipped. Falling out of kayaks is something that rarely happens. It would be straightforward to roll up under these conditions but you'd have to scull or brace in the upright condition until you gain full control. I've actually practiced these things. You, on the other hand, are full of ****. And as likely as not if startled, eg dive bombed by a seagull, the paddler would throw the paddle in the air landing out of reach and unavailable to assist in a re-entry. If birds startle you that much, stay home. Most of us don't let go of the paddle - it's trained into us. Besides, smart paddlers carry spares. Nope, I'd work on that unassisted re-entry and not rely on the paddle. Now sponsons, they stay with the boat. I'd invest my safety dollar in a good set of sponsons and maybe go a bit slower from an occasional bit of drag on wavetops. This is _not_ an unassisted re-entry. This is an assisted re-entry. Sponsons are used to assist paddlers back into the kayak. What people really object to but won't admit is that sponsons don't make their sleek colourful boats look sexy. Sponsons just don't fit their self image as kayakers. Nothing to do with performance or safety. Everything to do with appearances. Bah. You continue to ignore what folks have been saying about sponsons. 1) they don't work as well as some people claim. Other techniques are just as effective. 2) Sponsons are slower to deploy than paddle floats or other techniques. 3) Excess time in the water due to sponsons means greater threat of hypothermia. Paddlers who actually know what they're talking about rate rescue techniques with time-in-water as a critical criteria. 4) Sponsons provide limited stability improvements compared to claims. 5) Increasing the stability of a boat in rough conditions _increases_ the likelyhood of upset. Stability on flat water is instability on waves. 6) If broached on a breaking wave, sponsons _greatly_ increase the likelyhood of capsize. A narrow kayak can be edged into the wave and be more stable with a proper brace. 7) Sponsons, if deployed, significantly increase drag. Kayaks don't have enough freeboard to keep them above water. 8) Sponsons give people a false sense of security, leading them into conditions where they don't belong. Training and practice, not gear, is what is important. Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they don't belong, not safety mindedness. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:
Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in this long rambling discussion. Well, little man, you obviously have not been reading my posts, otherwise you'd know I've been writing from personal experience testing Timmy boy's sponsons on real kayaks. You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse! I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of different kayak models. Bull****! I've spent years sailing (inland lakes and offshore, racing and cruising), canoeing and kayaking on fla****er and WW - in a variety of different craft as well. I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find. One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement. You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those of us who know kayaks are capable of. "Expert" is not a word I would use for myself Opinionated fool yes, but you are certainly not qualified to give a meaningful opinion. As I said - you have no relevant experience in kayaks and have no basis for your wildly exaggerated statements about the efficacy of sponsons on kayaks. You've already proven your ignorance with ridiculous statements about waxing kayaks, round hulls and your fictions about the historical record of Inuit and other traditional kayaks. Which precludes the use of sponsons. No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid. Sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid for kayaks. Get a clue. Just because you think they are not doesn't mean the rest of us should change the way kayaking is approached. Look in any decent sea kayaking book - sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid. They are _not_ part of the kayak, but an add-on that is deployed when needed. And I repeat for the umpteenth time - sponsons reduce the stability of a kayak in rough conditions and will almost certainly lead to a capsize in breaking waves. This is based on the fundamental characteristics of hulls in rough water and on the experience of many people over many years. From John Winters' article on stability of kayaks: http://www.swiftcanoe.com/kayak/arti...sults.asp?ID=4 -Quote For day paddling in benign conditions a more beamy boat will feel more secure and serve nicely for novices. On the other hand, if breaking seas are expected, then the narrower boat is best. Conversely if we spend extended periods of time in open water then a beamier boat is best but with the qualification that it must be ballasted sufficiently to deter capsize and must not be so beamy as to have _excessive_initial_stability_ [my emphasis - as that provided by sponsons MD]. [...] Nevertheless, sea kayaks with high form stability are always more susceptible to capsize by breaking waves than a boat with less form stability. It is myth that increasing beam increases safety... [or adding sponsons or other artificial stability aids MD] -End Quote John Winters has designed a number of canoes and kayaks for both racing, touring and WW. Examples include the Swift Kippawa canoe, the Swift Bering Sea kayak and the QCC kayaks. Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far enougth away to get to shore. Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore. If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if storms come up. If you want to travel by kayak then you are, of necessity, required to be able to deal with storms. Paddling off many ocean coasts and Great Lakes regions, like parts of Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland means paddling for many kilometers with no safe landing along the way. If you can't deal with this then you aren't ready for real sea kayaking. Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option for sailing like it is for paddling. Again your ignorance of kayaking is showing again. I was paddling with a new kayaker last month and spent some time teaching him how to read the wind and explaining why it's important. No good sea kayaker would go out on an extended trip without weather knowledge. That's why many sea kayakers, like myself, are licensed for marine VHF and use radios to get up-to-date weather info. That's also why there are often articles on reading the weather in sea kayaking magazines. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../Summer98.html "Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience. You know nothing of my knowledge and experience. It is certainly wider than yours. Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your comments are based on ignorance. Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue yourself? I never said anything of the kind. You claim that kayaks are unstable and need sponsons. I'm claiming that they are not that unstable and that there are many options for re-entry beyond just sponsons. Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they don't belong, not safety mindedness. In what way? I tell people to make sure they are trained for the conditions that they _will_ encounter (not the nice, benign ones they daydream about). That includes knowing many techniques besides just sponsons. Sponsons have advantages and disadvantages (some of the latter I've listed). Every paddlers should learn about them and other rescue and re-entry aids and techniques. Then they decide which ones they include in their repertoire. Blindly advocating sponsons without a realistic consideration of the drawbacks, as you do, is nonsense. You still know nothing about kayaks and kayaking and still insist you are always right. You have not addressed any of the objections that I have made to your comments, rather you just keep claiming to know more than me. Get a clue. Mike |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" wrote in message le.rogers.com... On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic? Yes, of course I know you know nothing sponsons, because if you did know anything about sponsons it would have been obvious in what you've written in this long rambling discussion. Well, little man, you obviously have not been reading my posts, otherwise you'd know I've been writing from personal experience testing Timmy boy's sponsons on real kayaks. You've spent a few minutes of time in kayaks in your whole life! How much of that with sponsons? Get off yor high horse! I claim experince in a range of small boats makes a person capable of making accurate comparisons after 2-3 hours investigating a number of different kayak models. Bull****! I've spent years sailing (inland lakes and offshore, racing and cruising), canoeing and kayaking on fla****er and WW - in a variety of different craft as well. I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find. One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement. You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those of us who know kayaks are capable of. "Expert" is not a word I would use for myself Opinionated fool yes, but you are certainly not qualified to give a meaningful opinion. As I said - you have no relevant experience in kayaks and have no basis for your wildly exaggerated statements about the efficacy of sponsons on kayaks. You've already proven your ignorance with ridiculous statements about waxing kayaks, round hulls and your fictions about the historical record of Inuit and other traditional kayaks. Which precludes the use of sponsons. No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid. Sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid for kayaks. Get a clue. Just because you think they are not doesn't mean the rest of us should change the way kayaking is approached. Look in any decent sea kayaking book - sponsons _are_ a re-entry aid. They are _not_ part of the kayak, but an add-on that is deployed when needed. And I repeat for the umpteenth time - sponsons reduce the stability of a kayak in rough conditions and will almost certainly lead to a capsize in breaking waves. This is based on the fundamental characteristics of hulls in rough water and on the experience of many people over many years. From John Winters' article on stability of kayaks: http://www.swiftcanoe.com/kayak/arti...sults.asp?ID=4 -Quote For day paddling in benign conditions a more beamy boat will feel more secure and serve nicely for novices. On the other hand, if breaking seas are expected, then the narrower boat is best. Conversely if we spend extended periods of time in open water then a beamier boat is best but with the qualification that it must be ballasted sufficiently to deter capsize and must not be so beamy as to have _excessive_initial_stability_ [my emphasis - as that provided by sponsons MD]. [...] Nevertheless, sea kayaks with high form stability are always more susceptible to capsize by breaking waves than a boat with less form stability. It is myth that increasing beam increases safety... [or adding sponsons or other artificial stability aids MD] -End Quote John Winters has designed a number of canoes and kayaks for both racing, touring and WW. Examples include the Swift Kippawa canoe, the Swift Bering Sea kayak and the QCC kayaks. Yes but anyone with any boating experience can see themn comming from far enougth away to get to shore. Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore. If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if storms come up. If you want to travel by kayak then you are, of necessity, required to be able to deal with storms. Paddling off many ocean coasts and Great Lakes regions, like parts of Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland means paddling for many kilometers with no safe landing along the way. If you can't deal with this then you aren't ready for real sea kayaking. Reading winds and weather patterns is basic to sailing. Its not an option for sailing like it is for paddling. Again your ignorance of kayaking is showing again. I was paddling with a new kayaker last month and spent some time teaching him how to read the wind and explaining why it's important. No good sea kayaker would go out on an extended trip without weather knowledge. That's why many sea kayakers, like myself, are licensed for marine VHF and use radios to get up-to-date weather info. That's also why there are often articles on reading the weather in sea kayaking magazines. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../Summer98.html "Limited" is the word I used to describe your outlook and experience. You know nothing of my knowledge and experience. It is certainly wider than yours. Years of sea kayaking under all conditions on the Great Lakes and oceans and no upsets unless I wanted to. Kayaks are _not_ that unstable. Your comments are based on ignorance. Are you claiming capsize and re-entry is a non-issue? Or just a non-issue yourself? I never said anything of the kind. You claim that kayaks are unstable and need sponsons. I'm claiming that they are not that unstable and that there are many options for re-entry beyond just sponsons. Agressivness like yours is what leads paddlers into coniditions where they don't belong, not safety mindedness. In what way? I tell people to make sure they are trained for the conditions that they _will_ encounter (not the nice, benign ones they daydream about). That includes knowing many techniques besides just sponsons. Sponsons have advantages and disadvantages (some of the latter I've listed). Every paddlers should learn about them and other rescue and re-entry aids and techniques. Then they decide which ones they include in their repertoire. Blindly advocating sponsons without a realistic consideration of the drawbacks, as you do, is nonsense. You still know nothing about kayaks and kayaking and still insist you are always right. You have not addressed any of the objections that I have made to your comments, rather you just keep claiming to know more than me. Get a clue. Mike |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Susanne Jerome" wrote in message ink.net... I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic? Of course it's realistic--but you don't need sponsons to be able to stand up in a sea kayak. Check out http://www.ckf.org/Reports/CKF_PaddleFest-2002.htm and scroll to the bottom of the page. First photo on the left in the last row. IMHO, you are much more stable in a boat without the sponsons any time there is the possibility of having waves. Take a class on bracing and supportive strokes and you won't need sponsons. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Seakayaker" wrote in
m: "Susanne Jerome" wrote in message ink.net... I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic? Of course it's realistic--but you don't need sponsons to be able to stand up in a sea kayak. Check out http://www.ckf.org/Reports/CKF_PaddleFest-2002.htm and scroll to the bottom of the page. First photo on the left in the last row. It looks like he's getting some stability assistance from the guy in the boat next to him. Take a look at this one... http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/pa...tion/marg2.gif As the Swee****er kayak symposium I've seen Nigel Foster stand in his 21" wide Legend on one foot on a day when the winds were blowing so hard that they cancelled most of the on water sessions. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Susanne Jerome" writes:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message le.rogers.com... On 4-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic? Maybe, but I have to say, the whole thing sounds kind of like a kludge. If you want a boat that allows you go get up and march around in it, you really want some other kind of boat, not a kayak. That's not to say that there isn't a lot of variance in kayak shapes and sizes, but compared with other boat designs, kayaks are designed to be relatively close-fitting and narrow. Every type of boat does some things better than others, and the way to choose your boat is based on what you want to do the most. If moving around in your boat is very important to you, a kayak is not the best boat for doing that in, and kludging a kayak to allow for that is IMO not the best solution. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
On 5-Sep-2003, John Fereira wrote:
Take a look at this one... http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/pa...tion/marg2.gif That's Margaret Killen - she's annoying to paddle with because she's so damn good!! :-) :-) I've seen her do stuff that I can only dream of doing. That's a Romany she's standing in - certainly not a wide kayak! Mike |
sponsons really work! (BS)
stuff deleted
No it does not. Sponsons, for those who have been reading this thread with any understanding at all, are intended to prevent capsize and subsequent re-entry. They are not a re-entry aid. Now this could well be the most intelligent thing said on the subject (grin). Rick |
sponsons really work! (BS)
On 5-Sep-2003, "Susanne Jerome" wrote:
I like the idea of using sponsons to make a kayak stable enough to get easily in and out of and to move around on a boat in calm water. I don't know anyone who needs sponsons to get in or out of a kayak. Perhaps you need to learn how to do it right. If you straddle the kayak and drop your backside into the seat and then lift your legs in, you should be plenty stable unless you're in an extremely tippy kayak. If you can't fit your legs in (too tall), then you'll have to resort to using your paddle to brace. Hold the paddle behind the cockpit coaming and place one blade of the paddle on something solid (like the shore, a rock, etc). Sit on the kayak behind the cockpit and place your legs in (do _not_ sit on the paddle!). Then slide into the seat and you're done. In calm water you'd have no need for sponsons. If the kayak is too tippy in calm water, get another kayak. Sponsons should not be used to mask the deficiencies of a kayak. They are a self-rescue aid and should be used as such. I saw a picture of a guy standing up in a sponson equiped kayak is this realistic? You mean Jack on Timmy-boy's or the White Squall web site? Certainly it's realistic, however, as others have pointed out, you can do that without sponsons. I can't see why you'd want to. It purports to prove how stable kayaks are with sponsons, but IMNSHO, it's whitewash. BTW - one of Jack's compadres at White Squall in Nobel ON has been seen doing headstands in kayaks _without_ sponsons. Sorry, I can't find that picture online. Mike |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
I've been taught by a number of the best sailors and paddlers I could find. Would that be lessons? I think I see your problem. Lessons close the mind. The only thing lessons open is the chequebook. The greatest paddlers who made the greatest discoveries never had a lesson. Avoid the "lessons" trap. Paddling a kayak is such a simple exercise nobody needs lessons. I never had a paddling lesson in my life and was able to jump into 20 different kayak models and paddle them like an "expert" instantly. There is nothing to it. All a person needs is a feel for teh water and a brief look through an elementary kayak paddlign bood from the public library to see which side of the blade is up. Sailing IS differnt. It takes a whole lifetime and you never really learn it all. One thing I know is that one _cannot_ determine what a kayak can do with only a short paddle. It takes several day's worth of paddling under widely varying conditions to determine a kayaks true characteristics. As I've said before - you are speaking from ignorance and self-aggrandizement. nonsense. by making out like kayaking is some sort of secret ritual you are the one who is self-agrandizing. its child's play. that's why so may ordinary everyday people are attracted to it and don't get discourageed right off. well, if they paddle nice safe comfortable kayaks that is, not your utlrathin Barbie doll hulls. You have no formal training and have no basis for comparison to what those of us who know kayaks are capable of. nonsense. pure nonsense. "formal trainging" like I need formal training to ride a bicycle or a ice skate or ski or paddle a kayak. I've padded a kayak. Not a challenge. Nothing to it. I wonder what all those Inuit do without "formal training" to not only paddle a akayk but carry a seal or two home on the deck. ... Bull**** - I've experienced those squalls running into Lac des Chenes in sailboat racing when I was a member of BBYC many years ago. They come in so fast that a paddler well into the lake would _not_ have time to get to shore. If you want to stay in little puddles then you can stay off the water if storms come up. shows how little you know about fur tradign routes. taht's professional paddlign at its best. call yrou self a paddler? Bah. Getting timed out. Get a life. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" wrote in news:VYO6b.416119
: On 5-Sep-2003, John Fereira wrote: Take a look at this one... http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/pa...tion/marg2.gif That's Margaret Killen - she's annoying to paddle with because she's so damn good!! :-) :-) I know. I was paddling with Ray and Margaret when I took that picture. I've seen her do stuff that I can only dream of doing. That's a Romany she's standing in - certainly not a wide kayak! I was paddling one of her other boats that day. I don't think even she could stand up in a Foster Rowe Rumour. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" ) writes:
I take lessons all the time. Who says I pay? Not all lessons are from professional instructors. I learn from others who are more experienced. You on the other hand, assume you know everything and can preach about anything. Yet you prove with your ridiculous claims that you know little at all. you are backtracking and nit-picking. you introduced the term "formal instruction" into the discussion, not I. you are just trying to cover your ass. there is so much material on paddling you need go no further than the public library for those "advanced techniques" which mos paddler do nto need because, as I wrote earlier, they are not interested in paddling for pleasure in rough conditions. paddlers who paddle for their livelyhood are also nto interested in paddlign in rought conditions. only a few idots are interested in paddlign in rough conditions for entertainment or to prove themselves or whatever. the rest of us listen to weather reports and stay off the water when conditions are likely to be roungh. being "wind bound" is a paddling traditions. doing a lot og backing and filling and changing direction just to be contrary and win an hopeless argument. The greatest paddlers who made the greatest discoveries never had a lesson. Bull****. The explorers and traders that opened up North America learned about canoes and paddling from the first nations. Many explorers had native guides. The Europeans worked with the first nations to set up the trade they had. Read Adney and Chappelle for starters - information on how the white man aquired canoes for the fur trade from the natives. BS yourself. I'm getting timed out again, just when I'm getting started. Bill Mason and Eric Morse never took a lesson. Neitehr did nayone in my family and some of them paddled for thir livlihood. I never had a paddling lesson. Not needed. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"William R. Watt" wrote in message Bill Mason and Eric Morse never took a lesson. Neitehr did nayone in my family and some of them paddled for thir livlihood. I never had a paddling lesson. Not needed. Bill Mason did take lessons by learning from others. It's just that personal instruction did not exist at his time. If you are ignorant of that please read "Path of the Paddle" by Bill Mason, first edition, 1980, page 4: "The fastest way to learn to canoe is with personal instruction. Another is with the use of book. Film instruction is a third alternative. Probably the best way is a combination of all three". Bill Mason's son and daughter, Paul and Becky, are both very much involved in personal instruction. Paul Mason has also been greatly instrumental in establishing the standards for certifying canoeing instructors in Canada. The reasons these standards were set was because people were being harmed through ignorance. The reason the Ontario Recreational Canoeing Association (http://www.orca.on.ca/About-Us/index.html) was set up was because 12 kids died on Lake Tamiskaming due to ignorance of basic technique and safety. In the very precise sense of the word, in this regard at least, the kindest thing that I can think of is that you appear very ignorant, William. Parham. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ble.rogers.com... On 8-Sep-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote: you are backtracking and nit-picking. You're loosing it there willy-boy. Take a pill, will you! ..........snip Mike, You are arguing with a troll. It is a no win situation. If you ignore him, maybe he'll go away. If you try to debate with him rationally, you'll lose--he isn't rational. We know he's acting like an idiot---but you won't be able to convince him of it. |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ble.rogers.com... An expert is someone who knows how much he doesn't know and what his limits are. "An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually he knows everything about nothing" --Anonymous |
sponsons really work! (BS)
"Eddy Rapid" ) writes:
"William R. Watt" wrote in message Bill Mason and Eric Morse never took a lesson. Neitehr did nayone in my family and some of them paddled for thir livlihood. I never had a paddling lesson. Not needed. Bill Mason did take lessons by learning from others. It's just that personal instruction did not exist at his time. If you are ignorant of that please read "Path of the Paddle" by Bill Mason, first edition, 1980, page 4: "The fastest way to learn to canoe is with personal instruction. Another is with the use of book. Film instruction is a third alternative. Probably the best way is a combination of all three". 1. you are not defining "lesson". if I watched my father adn granfather paddle and learned what people who demand payment for "lessons" call the "cree" stroke or the "Canadina" stoke as the natural way to paddle, did I take a "lesson"? no way. did the cree? no way. no semantic games please. a "lesson" is what somebody get paid to teach. watching somebody at a distance who doesn't even know they are being watched is not a "lesson", "formal instruciton", or "certified". what you are doign is playuing into teh hands of control freaks who set up organizations, rules, regulations, and certification to impose their way of doing things on others. 2. "the FASTEST way". maybe, maybe not. but if so, then still don't need lessons. Mason is not saying you need lessons. Bill Mason's son and daughter, Paul and Becky, are both very much involved in personal instruction. Paul Mason has also been greatly instrumental in establishing the standards for certifying canoeing instructors in Canada. because that's what he does for a living. he gets people to PAY HIM to do that stuff. he has a vested interest in getting peopel to pay him to take lessons. he has a vested interest in the government arresting anyone out paddling without a cedrtified operators permit, renewalbe annyally for a good stiff fee which pays the salairies of a whole lot of government job holders who pay union dues to puble sector monopoly unions. he has a veste interest in armed government partol officers chaning down an shooting paddler who do not hav an operator's permit to paddle their own canoes and kayaks. The reasons these standards were set was because people were being harmed through ignorance. The reason the Ontario Recreational Canoeing Association (http://www.orca.on.ca/About-Us/index.html) was set up was because 12 kids died on Lake Tamiskaming due to ignorance of basic technique and safety. damn they did not!!! they died because some fool camp counselors who were being paid to lead the kids on a trip didn't know their goddamned asses from a hole in the ground. sorry, mac, but its not only the paddler who are misinformed. that incident is well documented. yiou don't need lessons. what you need is maturity, experince, and common sense. what those kids needed was a licenced guide of which there are plenty. not a certified paddling instructor. In the very precise sense of the word, in this regard at least, the kindest thing that I can think of is that you appear very ignorant, William. don't be condecending. perception is in the mind of the perciever. its you who are ignorant my son. you're also having a bit of a problem with language and logic. I blame that on teachers unions. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
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sponsons really work! (BS)
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