Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Back ten days early. Raw water cooled exhaust manifold, pronounced OK not long
ago, not so OK after all. Our well mannered boat always takes care of us.
When the tranny went out a couple of years ago, we were behind the breakwater
and upwind of the fuel dock. Soft landing.

After running perfectly for a week, the engine shut down several seconds after
startup while we were still secured to a dock. Pulling the injectors revealed
water in #1 cylinder, and the engine will not quite rotate 360 when cranked by
hand in either direction. Obviously got water in through the manifold, and the
piston came up on a substance that would not compress. Two potentially
major-nuisance failures, and both occured in lucky circumstances.

Oh well, the old engine had 4000 hours on it, anyway.

We had a spectacular week. A little bit of unfortunate bad luck, but a string
of glorious days preceding.

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

We had a spectacular week. A little bit of unfortunate bad luck, but a
string
of glorious days preceding.

Sorry about the bad timing Chuck. You sure picked the right weeks to pull
it off. I was wishing I had this coming week off. It looks like it's going
to be glorious and there's nobody out there.

Is that it for the engine or can you get away with just replacing the
manifold?

jps

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

On 20 Sep 2003 03:16:54 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Back ten days early. Raw water cooled exhaust manifold, pronounced OK not long
ago, not so OK after all. Our well mannered boat always takes care of us.
When the tranny went out a couple of years ago, we were behind the breakwater
and upwind of the fuel dock. Soft landing.

After running perfectly for a week, the engine shut down several seconds after
startup while we were still secured to a dock. Pulling the injectors revealed
water in #1 cylinder, and the engine will not quite rotate 360 when cranked by
hand in either direction. Obviously got water in through the manifold, and the
piston came up on a substance that would not compress. Two potentially
major-nuisance failures, and both occured in lucky circumstances.

Oh well, the old engine had 4000 hours on it, anyway.

We had a spectacular week. A little bit of unfortunate bad luck, but a string
of glorious days preceding.

Glad the failure didn't happen under worse circumstances.
If she was my boat, it would have happened 100 yards from the
power-plant dam, in a 30 knot wind. :o)

Hope the failure didn't do major damage.
If you can't go boating, I get no stories! :o(

Good luck with it,
noah

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Is that it for the engine or can you get away with just replacing the
manifold?

jps

It's beyond the manifold.

Bent or broke a rod in #1, most likely.
Could have damaged the crank in the bargain. One risk in a single cylinder
rebuild is that *if* the crank is damaged, it may not show up until the new
rod, etc, is installed and the engine fired up again.

A new manifold would be $3k.

New manifold and rebuilding #1, probably
$5-6k. No absolute guarantee that there wouldn't be a crank problem.

Pacific Detroit used to rebuild these 6354's, but hasn't for a while now. I've
got a line on a decent core, (with a manifold just a few years old) and a
strong lobbying effort from an individual with certain influence to get the
rebuilder to do "just one more". Looked promising at close of business today.

Hope to be back up in running in a couple of weeks, and hopefully no more than
maybe $10-12k including r&r. We'll see.
Two important rules about boat repairs:
1) It will take longer than you expect. 2) It will cost more than you could
possibly imagine. :-)

This is a good opportunity to consider replacing the tanks, anyway. No problem
so far, but twenty-year-old black iron fuel tanks are just ticking time bombs.
The cleanest swap is to bring them out through the engine hatch- and removing
the engine is the biggest portion of the expense.

It's screwed indeed, but that's the breaks.
Nobody said boating would always be easy or cheap.

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Hope the failure didn't do major damage.
If you can't go boating, I get no stories! :o(

Good luck with it,
noah

I got three "keepers". Share them soon. :-)

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

It's screwed indeed, but that's the breaks.
Nobody said boating would always be easy or cheap.

Yeah, but most of us don't get that nice tax break when we write the big
check!!!

I just had the folks from Pacific Diesel out to service the exhaust manifold
on my Kohler genset (a recall of a cast iron version they had been
installing for 25 years!). They seemed like a well run outfit stocked with
journeyman talent. Nice to see these days. The gent who serviced my genset
said that they're not real excited about servicing boats because most of the
time it's so damn cramped. The Tolly engine room layout made his work easy
and there was not even a trace of irritability in his professional demeanor
as the job was complete.

Sounds like you're well on your way to a cure. Replacing your old tanks
will bring some peace of mind as will having a fresh motor. Think of how
your confidence and pride will be restored as you start her up and make the
trip back to your slip. You'll be giddy and anxious to take her out for a
cruise!

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
Back ten days early. Raw water cooled exhaust manifold, pronounced OK not long
ago, not so OK after all. Our well mannered boat always takes care of us.
When the tranny went out a couple of years ago, we were behind the breakwater
and upwind of the fuel dock. Soft landing.

After running perfectly for a week, the engine shut down several seconds after
startup while we were still secured to a dock. Pulling the injectors revealed
water in #1 cylinder, and the engine will not quite rotate 360 when cranked by
hand in either direction. Obviously got water in through the manifold, and the
piston came up on a substance that would not compress. Two potentially
major-nuisance failures, and both occured in lucky circumstances.

Oh well, the old engine had 4000 hours on it, anyway.

We had a spectacular week. A little bit of unfortunate bad luck, but a string
of glorious days preceding.


Bad luck Chuck & sorry about it. Hope when you settle you share some of
the trip you did manage to do with the NG.

Old faithfully wasn't really to blame, water in the cyls is a big ask
even for a Perkins:-)

I noted below some indicative numbers you gave, wow!! & they're real
yanky dollars!! Hooly dooly.

For that sort of hooch can you consider different power?? As you say
you didn't really use the power the turboed perkins had anyway & these
days Cummins etc have some lovely units at what seem like good prices.
HP for HP you'll have plenty of room for su-) & "everything" will be
new & warranted.

Regardless I hope the repair goes well & your attitude is good so far
:-) but there will be tests:-)

K

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

For that sort of hooch can you consider different power?? As you say
you didn't really use the power the turboed perkins had anyway & these
days Cummins etc have some lovely units at what seem like good prices.

My impression is that a new Cummins would run just under twice what it will
likely cost to install another (reman) Perkins.

One consideration is a certain blasphemy being entertained by the Mrs. She toys
more frequently these days with selling our perfectly perfect boat and
replacing it with another that would have a larger berth, a different galley
config, etc etc etc. I guess it seems natural that she has developed a list of
perceived deficiencies after a decade or so with this boat......the scary thing
is that we've been together a *lot* longer than that..(I mean, our oldest kid
is 30!)...and I wonder what sort of "list" she's developed concerning me? :-)

If she makes good on her threat to force the new (or newer) boat issue in the
next few years I'll get no more for the boat with a 4-5 year old Cummins in it
than with a
Perkins with 800 hours on the rebuild.

The newly reconfigured 40-foot Willard pilothouse could be a temptation, but
there are only two of those in existence. And there is a small problem with the
associated price tag. Wowzers- at least for me.

Besides, if anything goes wrong with one of these new diesels, it's much harder
to diagnose or repair. My old Perkins is easy to understand. I can look at
every part and piece on the exterior of that engine and know what it is, how it
works, and how to take care of it. It will even run with a stone dead battery-
like to see a new Cummins duplicate that. :-)

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
For that sort of hooch can you consider different power?? As you say
you didn't really use the power the turboed perkins had anyway & these
days Cummins etc have some lovely units at what seem like good prices.


My impression is that a new Cummins would run just under twice what it will
likely cost to install another (reman) Perkins.



Well, you could always hang an outdoor motor off the transom...



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

The newly reconfigured 40-foot Willard pilothouse could be a temptation, but
there are only two of those in existence. And there is a small problem with the
associated price tag. Wowzers- at least for me.

Besides, if anything goes wrong with one of these new diesels, it's much harder
to diagnose or repair. My old Perkins is easy to understand. I can look at
every part and piece on the exterior of that engine and know what it is, how it
works, and how to take care of it. It will even run with a stone dead battery-
like to see a new Cummins duplicate that. :-)

Hi Chuck,
I've been looking at the older 30ft Willards w/o the flybridge. They
look like a solid basic cruiser. What's your opinion on them?
Mark (Gimpy Wannabe) Williams

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
For that sort of hooch can you consider different power?? As you say
you didn't really use the power the turboed perkins had anyway & these
days Cummins etc have some lovely units at what seem like good prices.


My impression is that a new Cummins would run just under twice what it will
likely cost to install another (reman) Perkins.

One consideration is a certain blasphemy being entertained by the Mrs. She toys
more frequently these days with selling our perfectly perfect boat and
replacing it with another that would have a larger berth, a different galley
config, etc etc etc. I guess it seems natural that she has developed a list of
perceived deficiencies after a decade or so with this boat......the scary thing
is that we've been together a *lot* longer than that..(I mean, our oldest kid
is 30!)...and I wonder what sort of "list" she's developed concerning me? :-)

Well we all know there are issues with you Chuck but you are as good as
any ex boat broker can be;-) besides I can absolutely assure you even
the thought of another berth, bigger or no, is out of the question:-)


If she makes good on her threat to force the new (or newer) boat issue in the
next few years I'll get no more for the boat with a 4-5 year old Cummins in it
than with a
Perkins with 800 hours on the rebuild.

As you say, I'm actually surprise the new engine is that expensive, but
as well as the cost there would also be some issues fitting it which
would use more money, so yes as you say.


The newly reconfigured 40-foot Willard pilothouse could be a temptation, but
there are only two of those in existence. And there is a small problem with the
associated price tag. Wowzers- at least for me.

Besides, if anything goes wrong with one of these new diesels, it's much harder
to diagnose or repair. My old Perkins is easy to understand. I can look at
every part and piece on the exterior of that engine and know what it is, how it
works, and how to take care of it.

Even that lump on the side of the rotary injection pump?? the injection
timing advance mechanism?? delete delete it's just me:-)

It will even run with a stone dead battery-
like to see a new Cummins duplicate that. :-)

Hmmm they both need to get started?? so save you have lots of kitchen
knives to put uner the exhaust valve tappets, room the get something
onto the crankshaft & you're built like a gorilla; they'll both sit
there silent. If you have enough power to start either, assuming the alt
is still there then they'll run. The electronics all have safe modes
which while not as reliable as your old cav or bosch pump, do give the
system some options.


Best Regards,

K

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

I can recommend a good repair shop. They can put in a new 7.4 long block
for about 4k. Sorry about your bad luck.

Capt. Frank

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks

Gould 0738 wrote:

Back ten days early. Raw water cooled exhaust manifold, pronounced OK not long
ago, not so OK after all. Our well mannered boat always takes care of us.
When the tranny went out a couple of years ago, we were behind the breakwater
and upwind of the fuel dock. Soft landing.

After running perfectly for a week, the engine shut down several seconds after
startup while we were still secured to a dock. Pulling the injectors revealed
water in #1 cylinder, and the engine will not quite rotate 360 when cranked by
hand in either direction. Obviously got water in through the manifold, and the
piston came up on a substance that would not compress. Two potentially
major-nuisance failures, and both occured in lucky circumstances.

Oh well, the old engine had 4000 hours on it, anyway.

We had a spectacular week. A little bit of unfortunate bad luck, but a string
of glorious days preceding.

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Harry Krause wrote:
Gould 0738 wrote:

For that sort of hooch can you consider different power?? As you say
you didn't really use the power the turboed perkins had anyway & these
days Cummins etc have some lovely units at what seem like good prices.


My impression is that a new Cummins would run just under twice what it will
likely cost to install another (reman) Perkins.




Well, you could always hang an outdoor motor off the transom...




Hurts me to admit this but, there's an idea Chuck. I wonder why nobody
has ever thought of much less actually done that before???

I mean it's outside, no noise, no small,rubber mounted, easy to
service, totally self contained but there would probably be down sides;
like the crowds of people who would gather everywhere the boat went,
just so they could say they know something of it or that they'd met you,
or as you work up a coast you'd find people awaiting your arrival at the
next port to have a look at it.

Upon reflection some ideas are just too ahead of their time, but all
kudos to Harry he actually said something that was boating related &
even more amazing; true!!


K

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Hi Chuck,
I've been looking at the older 30ft Willards w/o the flybridge. They
look like a solid basic cruiser. What's your opinion on them?
Mark (Gimpy Wannabe) Williams

Willard builds one heck of a boat.
They build a lot of motor lifeboats for the armed forces. As a result, much of
what they build for pleasure boating is put together to mil specs.

Their hulls are laid up in a continuous shift, "wet" process.

Willards are exclusively or almost exclusively full displacement hulls, rather
than the semi-displacement design that most similar size vessels would employ.
There is no finer sea boat than a well found displacement hull when things get
seriously snotty, and I always say you pick a boat for the *worst* (not the
average) conditions you will encounter.

The downside to a displacement hull is that it is "busier" in a calm to
moderate sea than a semi-displacement hull.
We spent one night at Friday Harbor last week, and the WA State ferry is, for
some reason, really hot-footing it into the adjoining ferry dock these days. We
were berthed next to a Krogen, 4 feet longer and quite a bit heavier than our
boat. The full displacement Krogen rocked violently in the broadside ferry
wake, while immediately next door our semi-displacement hull stayed relatively
level as it just rode up and over the swell.

However, if I were halfway across the Strait of Georgia and it started blowing
40-knots I'd much rather be aboard that Krogen.

A lot of the full displacement boats use outriggers and stabilizers. WESMAR
makes some very good electronically controlled active fin stabilizers, and some
other companies might as well. I think that
I'd reserve a few bucks in the budget to add stabilizers after a season or so
if we didn't acclimate comfortably to the busier ride.

But at last check, that 40-foot Willard pilothouse is about 1/2 a million
bucks.
Assuming for a moment that we had the option to rearrange priorities enough to
invest (no, make that spend) that much money for a boat I'm not sure I'd want
to.

Boating fun does *not* increase proportionately to the amount spent for a boat-
once one gets to the point where a safe and functional boat is attainable.

Example: Is the family in the $100k boat having 5 times as much fun as the
family in in a $20k boat? Of course not. Is the family in the $2mm boat having
20 times as much fun as the family in the $100k boat? No, again. Sometimes, the
great big boats are *less* fun than just a knock-around 30-40 foot family
cruiser that is easily operated by a couple.

If you want a slow, economically operated, seaworthy boat, a Willard would
certainly be among your options.

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Example: Is the family in the $100k boat having 5 times as much fun as the
family in in a $20k boat? Of course not. Is the family in the $2mm boat having
20 times as much fun as the family in the $100k boat? No, again. Sometimes, the
great big boats are *less* fun than just a knock-around 30-40 foot family
cruiser that is easily operated by a couple.

If you want a slow, economically operated, seaworthy boat, a Willard would
certainly be among your options.




The older Willard 30s are going for $30 - $40 thousand. Much less
than your $150,000 new 40 footer.
Mark

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

The older Willard 30s are going for $30 - $40 thousand. Much less
than your $150,000 new 40 footer.
Mark

Know where I can get a new 40-footer for $150k? :-)

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

Chuck, I'm curious to know how old was the raw water cooled manifold,
and how many hours were on it. Is there any rule of thumb for
replacement of these things?



AFAIK, the manifold was original.

I had it removed and inspected a couple of years ago, and specifically inquired
whether I should consider replacing it. I was told, "No, it looks fine. I
wouldn't worry about this manifold at all."

Had I to do over again, I would have simply replaced the manifold at the time I
was concerned about it due to age, when it was about 15 years old. These
manifolds are $$BIG and I went the cheapie route. Paying for it now. :-(

Rule of thumb? Replace *before* failure. :-)

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(
 

On 23 Sep 2003 16:41:58 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

The older Willard 30s are going for $30 - $40 thousand. Much less
than your $150,000 new 40 footer.
Mark

Know where I can get a new 40-footer for $150k? :-)


Lol, I see what you mean. TYPO!!!
Mark Williams

Manifold failure, hydrolock :-(