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#1
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean
cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg |
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#2
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
Wayne,
I think you are on the right track but those kind of currents indicate your ship voltage should be 24 volts not 12. I really like your golf battery solution. I hope your inverter is sinusoidal and not square wave, as the latter will play havoc with most electronics not to mention its RF generation. Just as a note, some of the popular computer UPS systems use 24V internal batteries. They are easy to modify for external power and they produce a clean sinusoidal output. Steve "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg |
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#3
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:57:42 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote: I think you are on the right track but those kind of currents indicate your ship voltage should be 24 volts not 12. I really like your golf battery solution. I hope your inverter is sinusoidal and not square wave, as the latter will play havoc with most electronics not to mention its RF generation. Just as a note, some of the popular computer UPS systems use 24V internal batteries. They are easy to modify for external power and they produce a clean sinusoidal output. Yes, the inverter is sine wave output, and we have a smaller one for backup. I previously installled a modified sine wave inverter on our old boat and we had a number of issues with it. There's no longer a reason to go non-sine wave in my opinion since prices keep dropping on the electronics. I also agree that 24 volts would be desirable but that would have required a lot of modifications or setting up some sort of dual voltage system since everything on the boat is set up for 12 volts. It is much simpler having everything at one voltage even if not entirely optimal. I even considered a 48 volt inverter at one point with a totally isolated house bank to feed it. As it is the golf cart batts are less than 4 feet from the inverter and alternator, and everything is interconnected with 2/0 and 4/0 cables which minimizes IR losses. |
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#4
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg Did you know about these? http://www.balmar.net/Page13-98seriesalts.html |
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#5
posted to rec.boats
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: Those of you who followed along with the updates from our Caribbean cruise earlier this year, may remember that we experienced some alternator issues along the way. This was disappointing for a number of reasons because we had already spent a fair amount of time, effort and boat bucks trying to find a high output alternator that was also durable. Our goal is to not run the generator at all when under way, and to minimize generator time when anchored. The potential savings on generator fuel and maintenance add up to a big number. To that end we've installed a 2,000 watt inverter and a bank of 8 golf cart batteries with a total capacity of about 1,000 amp-hours. The inverter and battery bank work well together but the batteries eventually need to be recharged, and when underway, the alternator needs to supply inverter amps, recharge amps and onboard house loads like navigation equipment, lights, auto pilot, engine room blowers, etc. Peak alternator loads can easily approach 250 amps and average well over half of that. To make a long story short, no automotive alternator that we've tried has been capable of these loads over a long period of time, even those that have been beefed up with heavy duty components. We burned out a total of 4 over the course of 6 months in the islands. Repair and replacement was problematic to say the least. After consulting with Tim, our cheerful, ever helpful, resident alternator expert on "rec.boats", and a number of other sources, I decided that a fresh approach was needed. Enter a company called Leece-Neville, a division of Prestolite, that has been making heavy duty alternators for a long time. LNs are used all over the world on fire trucks, ambulances, busses, big trucks, heavy duty construction machinery, etc. Their big alternators make everything else look like a toy, weigh over 35 pounds and are priced accordingly. Many of the really big ones are north of $2K at full retail. Thanks to the internet and EBAY however, they are now becoming available at more reasonable prices. I was recently able to buy a unit that had been remanufactured to like new condition for about $400, a bargain compared to some of our previous repair/replace experiences. It is rated at 270 amps continuously at high temperatures, and is designed for fire trucks, ambulances and busses. http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/specs.php?item_detail_id=951&item=A0014867JB&produ ct=ALTERNATOR There are some downside issues however: It is designed for a so called J180 mounting bracket; requires multiple drive belts since it can use as much as 6 or 7 horsepower; and is not ignition protected for gasoline engines. Ignition protection is not an issue for our diesels, and fortunately the front pulley on a Detroit 6-71 can accomodate up to three belts. The mounting bracket was problematic however since the existing mount was for a Delco 2 inch foot. In exchange for a sizable boat buck fraction, a local machine shop fabricated a custom made J180 bracket from 1/2 inch cold rolled steel. In combination with some Grade 8 steel mounting hardware and a new adjusting arm, everything is now solidly attached, lined up and looking good with 3 brand new Gates Green Stripe belts installed. In testing it has put out well over 200 amps while maintaining reasonable temperatures. Stay tuned for the long term durability reports... :-) New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg After installation, with new HD belts and adjusting arm. The black detritus in the background is left over from the many previous alternators and belts which gave up their lives in that spot: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1462/installedimg0573.jpg Boat, with new alternator well hidden, docked last weekend on the Caloosahatchie River in southwestern Florida: http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6797/img0567i.jpg I really like the dog retriever you've rigged there. Nice photos and interesting post. Thanks. -- Hope you're having a great day! John H |
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#6
posted to rec.boats
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On 11/12/10 7:33 AM, W1TEF wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:05:25 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: New alternator and bracket prior to installation with a beverage can for size reference: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg Damn - that is a monster. Hopefully, it will work out. Nice pepsi wrapper on that beer can. :) |
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#7
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 00:26:56 -0800, jps wrote:
Did you know about these? http://www.balmar.net/Page13-98seriesalts.html Yes. I installed a Balmar high output alternator on one of my old sail boats. That boat had an Atomic 4 gasoline engine and needed to have ignition protection which Balmar offered. I believe the 4000 series Leece-Nevilles are a better unit and I can buy 4 or 5 of them for the price of one Balmar. |
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#8
posted to rec.boats
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 07:45:32 -0500, HarryK wrote:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3557/preinstallwithnewbracke.jpg Damn - that is a monster. Yes it is. It's just about all you can lift when you're working in a cramped location, but would you want anything less on your fire truck or ambulance? |
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#10
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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The Ultimate Alternator Project
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:45:28 -0800, Mark Borgerson
wrote: It looks like the right piece of equipment for the job----however, I find the washer stack and bolt on the belt-tensioning arm a bit troublesome. There's an inch or so of lever arm and it looks like about half an inch of thread into the alternator front plate. If that front plate is cast aluminum, how long will it be before that bolt loosens with thermal cycling and vibration? Good eye, was wondering if anyone would comment on that. It's not just a washer stack however. At this point it is more of a custom spacer since the SS washers are firmly stuck to each other with JB weld. I understand your point regarding long term stress on the adjusment tab and bolt. It would certainly be easy enough to get a longer bolt and put another washer/lock washer/lock nut combo on the other side of the tab. Good idea. For a few more boat bucks, you could replace the washer stack with steel block of the appropriate thickness---perhaps with some filed 'tooth' on each side. Spend a few more bucks and get a bolt a half inch longer. You might also have clearance for a thin nut on the front to act as a lock nut. When you're cranking out 200 amps, there's going to be substantial load on that bracket. TINS: Back in the 70's I drove a Chevy Vega with an aluminum block. That never gave me problems, but I did have an alternator problem. I was careful with belt tension and kept that bolt tight. However, the belt kept getting looser. I finally disassembled the system and found that the bottom of the alternator was pivoted on a 4" long steel pin through the alternator housing. The housing had worn away so that the 3/8" hole through the housing was now a slot about 3/8" wide and over 1/2" long. I had a similar issue with the alternator mount on our generator (40 hp Yanmar diesel), after about 3,000 hours. The mounting hole went egg shaped and was virtually impossible to replace since it was part of a casting on the front of the engine block. My local alternator shop came up with some SS circular shim stock just the right size for the mounting bolt. I cleaned up everything with acetone and bedded the shim stock into the mounting bracket with JB Weld. It has been working fine now for over 600 hours of run time. |
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