Immigration by the numbers
 

On Jun 29, 8:06*am, "John Gilmer" wrote:

The "modern" problem required a modern economy. * In the 18th Century, for
example, the idea of *masses of "seasonal workers" could not have been made
to work.

If you mean *migratory* seasonal workers, no, that definitely wasn't
allowed in feudal Europe or the British Isles, where the common man
was a serf who wasn't allowed to travel.

The only people who could travel were the nobility, the clergy, and
Jewish merchants, who were identified a such by a *red* star badge.

Any vagrant who wandered freely and lived off the land, as the Norse,
Celts, and Anglo Saxons had lived for centuries was outlawed.

And, the serfs on a feudal estate were also expected to perform as
"infantry" in case of a war, because the feudal lord was unwilling to
pay a large group of professional mercenaries, year in and year out.

In "Old Mortality", Sir Walter Scott described the mandatory "weapons
shows" of 18th century Scottish peasants with their pitchforks and
rakes...

But even in colonial times, folks were suspecious of too many "new" people
who were like themselves. * Xenophobia has been around for a long time and
with good reason.

The English colonies became a dumping ground for convicts in the early
17th century. Tens of thousands of convicts were shipped to the
Bahamas, Caribbean, Antilles islands and to Georgia to work as *white
slaves* until they completed their sentences or, more likely *died* of
overwork or disease.

They were forbidden to return to England upon threat of being
*hanged*.

By 1740, the number of white slaves exceeded the number of African
slaves.

The British/Norman landowners feared the power of the aggregate slave
work force and enacted laws in Virginia to prevent intermarriage
between the races.

The convicts were not necessarily *bad* people, their offenses might
have been something petty, such as annoying a British/Norman nobleman
about being *paid* for their services.

The common people of England weren't allowed to own land, nor were
they allowed to travel freely around the countryside.

The British/Norman nobility originally got their land and titles from
the Norman kings and they gradually began fencing off their feudal
estates for sheep herding.

The peasants became very inconvenient, because their cottages and
subsistence fields were taking up space that could be used for grazing
sheep.

The peasants had to manufacture something they could sell in order to
pay the rent on their cottage. They did these handicrafts during the
winter and were called "crofters."

Sales of handicrafts were uncertain. Sale of *wool* was a sure thing.

My own English ancestors were middle class, between the British/Norman
nobility and the peasantry, because they owned a textile mill in
Dorset.

The house where they lived still stands. Last I heard, it was a bed
and breakfact inn.

My direct ancestor in Dorset made felt out of wool and they made
woolen clothing. Before they got into that, they'd been weavers of
flax in Belgium.

But, back to the English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish convicts in the
colonies.

It didn't much matter what the "common folk" of the colonies thought,
the convicts still weren't welcomed by the established and wealthy
English businessmen in New England.

Benjamin Franklin likened the convicts to rattlesnakes and said that
at least you knew what a rattlesnake was when you met it.

Franklin was opposed to convict labor in the colonies.

When the Founding Fathers got the chance to enact the first
Immigration Act in 1790, they declared their desire for FREE WHITE
MEN, OF GOOD CHARACTER
to come here and become citizens.

After arriving here and declaring their intent to become citizens,
they had to serve a two year waiting period.

This was gradually raised to 14 years, in order to prevent large
numbers of immigrants who were sympathetic to the British cause from
gaining citizenship and voting for a return to British rule.

Immigration by the numbers
 

? wrote:......
The common people of England weren't allowed to own land, nor were
they allowed to travel freely around the countryside.

Are they now? Weapons?

Immigration by the numbers
 

On Jun 29, 2:27*pm, "Vito" wrote:
? wrote:......
The common people of England weren't allowed to own land, nor were
they allowed to travel freely around the countryside.

Are they now? *Weapons?

Well, if Neil Murray is an example of a freely-travelling Englishman
with weapons, he does have a barbed, vicious tongue...

Immigration by the numbers
 

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
net...

"purple" wrote in message
...
On 6/27/2010 10:58 PM, Mike wrote:
you and other proto crypto dimwits ought to check out Reagan on
immigration.

Reagan screwed up more than immigration. If you look closely enough
I don't think you'll find any president who didn't make some
significant bad calls.

Ike's administration understood the problem.

There was a program in place to import seasonal workers from Mexico and
send them back home when the crop was in.

When too many illegals cross the border with Mexico, he instituted
"Project Wetback" to reduce the flow.

The JFK administration decided to open the gates to legals and illegals.

It cut back the programs that provided for seasonal workers (it was
"demeaning" to the Mexicans) and, thus, created a BIG demand for the
illegals.


when do you think all this started?

The "modern" problem required a modern economy. In the 18th Century, for
example, the idea of masses of "seasonal workers" could not have been
made to work.

But even in colonial times, folks were suspecious of too many "new" people
who were like themselves. Xenophobia has been around for a long time and
with good reason.



Was not Ike. Program started in 1942 when lots of people from the farm went
to war as soldiers and the Japanese in the West were interred. Was the
Bracero Program and allowed 3 and 6 month work visas. Were not all for farm
labor. I worked with. some in a lumber mill making pallets. 1857-1960.
Was ended .because the do gooders said the migrant farm workers had to live
in demeaning conditions. Instead of making the farmers that supplied
housing, supply livable housing, they killed the program. We could end
illegal immigration in 30 days by instituting a visiting worker visa for
those without a college degree (H-1 visa allows that now).

Immigration by the numbers
 

On Jun 29, 10:03*pm, "Bill McKee" wrote:

Was the
Bracero Program (snip)
Was ended .because the do gooders said the migrant farm workers had to live
in demeaning conditions.

True. The White farmers of the Western Growers Association had become
spoiled from the availability of very cheap Mexican labor in the San
Joaquin valley
from 1850 until the Great Depression, when the US government and the
Mexican consulate cooperated to repatriate 500,000 Mexicans (who
weren't US citizens, even if they were born here) in order to open
jobs for real Americans.

Hundreds of thousands of American men became "fruit tramps," following
the harvests from Arizona to Washington state.

The federal camp at Weed, CA which was shown in the film version of
John Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" originally was shacks for Mexican
agricultural workers.

Nowadays, Mexicans are often better off than White workers, they live
in better housing (while poor Whites are living in the shanties where
the Mexicans used to live), they dress better, and drive better cars.

It's surprising to drive past a grape vineyard being harvested and see
that the Mexican grape pickers are driving late model customized
pickup trucks with tinted windows and chromed wheels.

The local Mexicans dress better than Whites who've been driven
completely out of
agricultural work at any level by Mexican nepotism.

And bilingual Mexican-American labor contractors who round up Spanish-
only Mexicans to pick crops are living in custom built mansions on
five acre lots, across the street from the Whites who are living in
shacks....

Instead of making the farmers that supplied
housing, supply livable housing, they killed the program.

Well, one of the biggest agribusiness companies in Ventura County, CA
has built a modern housing development for Mexican ag workers in the
Santa Clara river valley so they don't have to commute from
Oxnard...

Immigration by the numbers
 

? wrote:
On Jun 29, 2:27 pm, "Vito" wrote:
? wrote:......
The common people of England weren't allowed to own land, nor were
they allowed to travel freely around the countryside.

Are they now? Weapons?

Well, if Neil Murray is an example of a freely-travelling Englishman
with weapons, he does have a barbed, vicious tongue...

But he's uncommon :)

Immigration by the numbers
 

On Jun 30, 4:24*am, "Vito" wrote:
? wrote:

Well, if Neil Murray is an example of a freely-travelling Englishman
with weapons, he does have a barbed, vicious tongue...

But he's uncommon :)

Fortunately...

Immigration by the numbers
 

On 6/30/2010 12:03 AM, Bill McKee wrote:


Was not Ike.

True.

Program started in 1942 when lots of people from the farm went
to war as soldiers and the Japanese in the West were interred. Was the
Bracero Program and allowed 3 and 6 month work visas. Were not all for farm
labor. I worked with. some in a lumber mill making pallets. 1857-1960.
Was ended .because the do gooders said the migrant farm workers had to live
in demeaning conditions. Instead of making the farmers that supplied
housing, supply livable housing, they killed the program. We could end
illegal immigration in 30 days by instituting a visiting worker visa for
those without a college degree (H-1 visa allows that now).

Your memories/understanding are flawed though the visitor visa
is a good idea.

Growing up in the northeast, we had migrant workers from the
south, mostly Florida, come through every fall. They were poor
black and white with the same base of people each year,
seemingly endlessly.

The smarter farmers followed the laws that required adequate
housing once those laws were in place, and kept their harvesters
on site till the crop was all in, under threat of being fired
if they left the place for any reason. The farmer would take
liquor orders on Friday night, buying the products and delivering
them, and kept the drunken misbehavior local and under control
so they wouldn't lose any harvesters to law enforcement. The
migrant workers had an agent who traveled with them and
maintained order, usually providing transportation (old school
buses) as well.

As recently as the 1990's I saw such migrant worker housing
in Wisconsin with rules posted, painted directly on the wall.
The place was like fraternity rooms I remember from college
days but had only metal bunk beds and no other furniture.
They had a refrigerator, common kitchen, and common bathroom
facilities.

In late fall, as the migrant workers headed south for winter,
they would come through a second time, buying up all old cheap
cars, running or not. Every family or group bought two, one
that drove and one they towed. Fixing the non-runner and selling
it was winter income. It is a good bet that by the time the
buses reached their point of origin they were nearly empty.