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Too cold for boating but ok for caves
mgg wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. Most caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: http://www.mercercaverns.com/ which is limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
On Jan 5, 10:08*am, Jim wrote:
mgg wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message .... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. *Most *caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: *http://www.mercercaverns.com/which is limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. You would think that in 2010, there would be Hi Tech ways to navigate in caves but there are not. Neither GPS nor LORAN nor any radio communications work in most caves due to the large amount of water in the overlying rock. it is like communicating with a submerged submarine but even worse because SONAR does not work well through discontinuous rock either. Consequently, mapping is still done the old hard way, with compass, clinometer and tape measure. There are also no good ways to find caves. Ground Penetrating Radar rarely works in such an environment because of insufficient range and because the ground is always too uneven. So, the best ways to find caves is to be very familiar with terrain. One gets a subconcious sense of terrain noting odd ridges and areas where water flows in but not out. Being obsessed with Topo maps is also good. Still, one has to go look for them not knowing if they exist which means walking for miles through "cavish" terrain. I have noticed around here certain types of vegetation that grows near caves such as "Oak Leaf Hydrangea". One friend of mine says he can smell caves and his record of finding them is good. Cave maps are normally difficult to use because they are two dimensional whereas caves are three dimensional. Often maps give side views but not often enough. The maps are also drawn mostly based on simple sketches made by the mapper under really bad conditions so interpretation is difficult. Maps can be used to tell where the cave passage is under the surface but you have to realize the extent of the errors due to the difficult conditions. Try reading a compass while your face is buried in the mud and the compass itself is covered with mud and you have to let the air out of your lungs to squeeze through and you might see why there are errors. Communication underground is basically impossible. Radio does not work and neither do cell phones. A device called "Cave Radio" does exist using extremely low frequency but it cannot be used for much because it's data rate is very low and it requires a very large underground antenna. Its spatial resolution is also very poor. Consequently, once underground, you are on your own with no way to communicate with the outside world. You might be only 100' below ground but you might as well be on the back side of the moon. Even if you do have GPS coords of a cave entrance, finding it can still be very difficult. First, you have to get there which is often bizarro difficult. Many entrances are REALLY SMALL and non-obvious. The GPS might say you are within 60' of it and you cannot find it. Once you find it, you have to consider what is living in the entrance. Around here it will be snakes or buzzards. Buzzards protect their nests by barfing on you, I know, experience, truly disgusting. In spite of all of this, it is probably the most adventure you can have for the least amount of money. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
Frogwatch wrote:
On Jan 5, 10:08 am, Jim wrote: mgg wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. Most caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: http://www.mercercaverns.com/which is limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. You would think that in 2010, there would be Hi Tech ways to navigate in caves but there are not. Neither GPS nor LORAN nor any radio communications work in most caves due to the large amount of water in the overlying rock. it is like communicating with a submerged submarine but even worse because SONAR does not work well through discontinuous rock either. Consequently, mapping is still done the old hard way, with compass, clinometer and tape measure. There are also no good ways to find caves. Ground Penetrating Radar rarely works in such an environment because of insufficient range and because the ground is always too uneven. So, the best ways to find caves is to be very familiar with terrain. One gets a subconcious sense of terrain noting odd ridges and areas where water flows in but not out. Being obsessed with Topo maps is also good. Still, one has to go look for them not knowing if they exist which means walking for miles through "cavish" terrain. I have noticed around here certain types of vegetation that grows near caves such as "Oak Leaf Hydrangea". One friend of mine says he can smell caves and his record of finding them is good. Cave maps are normally difficult to use because they are two dimensional whereas caves are three dimensional. Often maps give side views but not often enough. The maps are also drawn mostly based on simple sketches made by the mapper under really bad conditions so interpretation is difficult. Maps can be used to tell where the cave passage is under the surface but you have to realize the extent of the errors due to the difficult conditions. Try reading a compass while your face is buried in the mud and the compass itself is covered with mud and you have to let the air out of your lungs to squeeze through and you might see why there are errors. Communication underground is basically impossible. Radio does not work and neither do cell phones. A device called "Cave Radio" does exist using extremely low frequency but it cannot be used for much because it's data rate is very low and it requires a very large underground antenna. Its spatial resolution is also very poor. Consequently, once underground, you are on your own with no way to communicate with the outside world. You might be only 100' below ground but you might as well be on the back side of the moon. Even if you do have GPS coords of a cave entrance, finding it can still be very difficult. First, you have to get there which is often bizarro difficult. Many entrances are REALLY SMALL and non-obvious. The GPS might say you are within 60' of it and you cannot find it. Once you find it, you have to consider what is living in the entrance. Around here it will be snakes or buzzards. Buzzards protect their nests by barfing on you, I know, experience, truly disgusting. In spite of all of this, it is probably the most adventure you can have for the least amount of money. I'm convinced. I wouldn't do Froggy style caving for all the tea in China. I apreciate the hand rails, pavers, piped in air and lighting found in improved caves. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
On Jan 5, 2:37*pm, Jim wrote:
Frogwatch wrote: On Jan 5, 10:08 am, Jim wrote: mgg wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message .... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well.. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. *Most *caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: *http://www.mercercaverns.com/whichis limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. You would think that in 2010, there would be Hi Tech ways to navigate in caves but there are not. *Neither GPS nor LORAN nor any radio communications work in most caves due to the large amount of water in the overlying rock. *it is like communicating with a submerged submarine but even worse because SONAR does not work well through discontinuous rock either. Consequently, mapping is still done the old hard way, with compass, clinometer and tape measure. *There are also no good ways to find caves. *Ground Penetrating Radar rarely works in such an environment because of insufficient range and because the ground is always too uneven. *So, the best ways to find caves is to be very familiar with terrain. *One gets a subconcious sense of terrain noting odd ridges and areas where water flows in but not out. *Being obsessed with Topo maps is also good. *Still, one has to go look for them not knowing if they exist which means walking for miles through "cavish" terrain. *I have noticed around here certain types of vegetation that grows near caves such as "Oak Leaf Hydrangea". *One friend of mine says he can smell caves and his record of finding them is good. * Cave maps are normally difficult to use because they are two dimensional whereas caves are three dimensional. *Often maps give side views but not often enough. *The maps are also drawn mostly based on simple sketches made by the mapper under really bad conditions so interpretation is difficult. *Maps can be used to tell where the cave passage is under the surface but you have to realize the extent of the errors due to the difficult conditions. *Try reading a compass while your face is buried in the mud and the compass itself is covered with mud and you have to let the air out of your lungs to squeeze through and you might see why there are errors. Communication underground is basically impossible. *Radio does not work and neither do cell phones. *A device called "Cave Radio" does exist using extremely low frequency but it cannot be used for much because it's data rate is very low and it requires a very large underground antenna. *Its spatial resolution is also very poor. Consequently, once underground, you are on your own with no way to communicate with the outside world. *You might be only 100' below ground but you might as well be on the back side of the moon. Even if you do have GPS coords of a cave entrance, finding it can still be very difficult. *First, you have to get there which is often bizarro difficult. *Many entrances are REALLY SMALL and non-obvious. The GPS might say you are within 60' of it and you cannot find it. Once you find it, you have to consider what is living in the entrance. *Around here it will be snakes or buzzards. *Buzzards protect their nests by barfing on you, I know, experience, truly disgusting. In spite of all of this, it is probably the most adventure you can have for the least amount of money. I'm convinced. I wouldn't do Froggy style caving for all the tea in China. I apreciate the hand rails, pavers, piped in air and lighting found in improved caves. Well, I admit to being terrified by sailing weather most people would consider reasonable. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
In article ,
says... Frogwatch wrote: On Jan 5, 10:08 am, Jim wrote: mgg wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. Most caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: http://www.mercercaverns.com/which is limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. You would think that in 2010, there would be Hi Tech ways to navigate in caves but there are not. Neither GPS nor LORAN nor any radio communications work in most caves due to the large amount of water in the overlying rock. it is like communicating with a submerged submarine but even worse because SONAR does not work well through discontinuous rock either. Consequently, mapping is still done the old hard way, with compass, clinometer and tape measure. There are also no good ways to find caves. Ground Penetrating Radar rarely works in such an environment because of insufficient range and because the ground is always too uneven. So, the best ways to find caves is to be very familiar with terrain. One gets a subconcious sense of terrain noting odd ridges and areas where water flows in but not out. Being obsessed with Topo maps is also good. Still, one has to go look for them not knowing if they exist which means walking for miles through "cavish" terrain. I have noticed around here certain types of vegetation that grows near caves such as "Oak Leaf Hydrangea". One friend of mine says he can smell caves and his record of finding them is good. Cave maps are normally difficult to use because they are two dimensional whereas caves are three dimensional. Often maps give side views but not often enough. The maps are also drawn mostly based on simple sketches made by the mapper under really bad conditions so interpretation is difficult. Maps can be used to tell where the cave passage is under the surface but you have to realize the extent of the errors due to the difficult conditions. Try reading a compass while your face is buried in the mud and the compass itself is covered with mud and you have to let the air out of your lungs to squeeze through and you might see why there are errors. Communication underground is basically impossible. Radio does not work and neither do cell phones. A device called "Cave Radio" does exist using extremely low frequency but it cannot be used for much because it's data rate is very low and it requires a very large underground antenna. Its spatial resolution is also very poor. Consequently, once underground, you are on your own with no way to communicate with the outside world. You might be only 100' below ground but you might as well be on the back side of the moon. Even if you do have GPS coords of a cave entrance, finding it can still be very difficult. First, you have to get there which is often bizarro difficult. Many entrances are REALLY SMALL and non-obvious. The GPS might say you are within 60' of it and you cannot find it. Once you find it, you have to consider what is living in the entrance. Around here it will be snakes or buzzards. Buzzards protect their nests by barfing on you, I know, experience, truly disgusting. In spite of all of this, it is probably the most adventure you can have for the least amount of money. I'm convinced. I wouldn't do Froggy style caving for all the tea in China. I apreciate the hand rails, pavers, piped in air and lighting found in improved caves. I agree! You know how afraid I am of any kind of adventure or risk taking. Things like riding bikes, motocross, or anything like that just scares me to death. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
On Jan 6, 9:36*am, Harry wrote:
In article , says... Frogwatch wrote: On Jan 5, 10:08 am, Jim wrote: mgg wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 10:27 pm, "mgg" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... On Jan 4, 8:00 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: I resolve to carry a compass even on short trips into the woods from now on. A pocket GPS is even better, and useful in the dinghy also. In deep woods, GPS often has problems and does not work at all in caves. I have to wonder how well a compass would work in some caves as well. Depending on the composition of the rock, it could drive a compass whacky. Here's a thought... carry both! ;-) --Mike My compass has never failed me. *Most *caves are in limestone so compositioin does not change the earths mag field. Limestone.... I did not know that. My only experience with caves is: *http://www.mercercaverns.com/whichis limestone as well. I didn't know it was the norm though. Very cool tour there as well. I doubt it's your cup-o-tea since they built steps. ;-) --Mike We toured Lurray Caverns up in Hairball the paste eater's neighborhood, this summer. Pretty Cool place. They even had a mechanical organ that used ( limestone icicles ) stalactites, i think, instead of pipes. It's worth a look if you are traveling in the vicinity. You would think that in 2010, there would be Hi Tech ways to navigate in caves but there are not. *Neither GPS nor LORAN nor any radio communications work in most caves due to the large amount of water in the overlying rock. *it is like communicating with a submerged submarine but even worse because SONAR does not work well through discontinuous rock either. Consequently, mapping is still done the old hard way, with compass, clinometer and tape measure. *There are also no good ways to find caves. *Ground Penetrating Radar rarely works in such an environment because of insufficient range and because the ground is always too uneven. *So, the best ways to find caves is to be very familiar with terrain. *One gets a subconcious sense of terrain noting odd ridges and areas where water flows in but not out. *Being obsessed with Topo maps is also good. *Still, one has to go look for them not knowing if they exist which means walking for miles through "cavish" terrain. *I have noticed around here certain types of vegetation that grows near caves such as "Oak Leaf Hydrangea". *One friend of mine says he can smell caves and his record of finding them is good. * Cave maps are normally difficult to use because they are two dimensional whereas caves are three dimensional. *Often maps give side views but not often enough. *The maps are also drawn mostly based on simple sketches made by the mapper under really bad conditions so interpretation is difficult. *Maps can be used to tell where the cave passage is under the surface but you have to realize the extent of the errors due to the difficult conditions. *Try reading a compass while your face is buried in the mud and the compass itself is covered with mud and you have to let the air out of your lungs to squeeze through and you might see why there are errors. Communication underground is basically impossible. *Radio does not work and neither do cell phones. *A device called "Cave Radio" does exist using extremely low frequency but it cannot be used for much because it's data rate is very low and it requires a very large underground antenna. *Its spatial resolution is also very poor. Consequently, once underground, you are on your own with no way to communicate with the outside world. *You might be only 100' below ground but you might as well be on the back side of the moon. Even if you do have GPS coords of a cave entrance, finding it can still be very difficult. *First, you have to get there which is often bizarro difficult. *Many entrances are REALLY SMALL and non-obvious.. The GPS might say you are within 60' of it and you cannot find it. Once you find it, you have to consider what is living in the entrance. *Around here it will be snakes or buzzards. *Buzzards protect their nests by barfing on you, I know, experience, truly disgusting. In spite of all of this, it is probably the most adventure you can have for the least amount of money. I'm convinced. I wouldn't do Froggy style caving for all the tea in China. I apreciate the hand rails, pavers, piped in air and lighting found in improved caves. I agree! You know how afraid I am of any kind of adventure or risk taking. Things like riding bikes, motocross, or anything like that just scares me to death. Horizontal caving does not scare me but vertical caving does. I can be completely happy in a tiny passage with no room to move whereas heights scare the crap outta me. Still, heights are part of the deal so you gotta do it. I get so scared and freaked out that I would be unable to handle mechanical ascenders whereas I can tie prusik knots robotically so I used them. You'd think experience would reduce the fear but for me it does not. I finally gave up rock climbing for this reason. I sorta gave up vertical caving for this reason. Being terrified of bad weather, I wonder if I will eventually give up long distance sailing for this reason. A little bit of fear is a good thing but being terrified makes me wonder if it is worth it. Still, it isnt adventure without a twinge of fear. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote: Was seriously cold here in NW Fl yesterday morn and we met some friends to look for caves. I know you are aware that cave diving is seriously nuts. We had three Iowa farm boys, brothers, who schlepped their SCUBA gear to Fl and found themselves a cave to explore. I don't know what they made of the warning sign. They swam into the cave until more than half their air was gone and headed back after it was too late. They found a camera with them grinning at it, after they were already doomed. Evolution in action. Then there was the kid who left a guided tour and wedged himself. They had to cut him out with power tools, but they had plenty of time to do it. Casady |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
Richard Casady wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Was seriously cold here in NW Fl yesterday morn and we met some friends to look for caves. I know you are aware that cave diving is seriously nuts. We had three Iowa farm boys, brothers, who schlepped their SCUBA gear to Fl and found themselves a cave to explore. I don't know what they made of the warning sign. They swam into the cave until more than half their air was gone and headed back after it was too late. They found a camera with them grinning at it, after they were already doomed. Evolution in action. Then there was the kid who left a guided tour and wedged himself. They had to cut him out with power tools, but they had plenty of time to do it. Casady It's ok...froggy drinks a lot of booze and coffee. |
Too cold for boating but ok for caves
On Jan 7, 12:23*pm, Harry wrote:
Richard Casady wrote: On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:39:09 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Was seriously cold here in NW Fl yesterday morn and we met some friends to look for caves. I know you are aware that cave diving is seriously nuts. We had three Iowa farm boys, brothers, who schlepped their SCUBA gear to Fl and found themselves a cave to explore. I don't know what they made of the warning sign. They swam into the cave until more than half their air was gone and headed back after it was too late. They found a camera with them grinning at it, after they were already doomed. Evolution in action. Then there was the kid who left a guided tour and wedged himself. They had to cut him out with power tools, but they had plenty of time to do it. Casady It's ok...froggy drinks a lot of booze and coffee.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Harry, where did Frog say he drank a lot of booze, liar? |
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