On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Oct 15, 12:27*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:07:45 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports



wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:10:44 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Oct 15, 6:09*am, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:32:10 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:11:39 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

An argument here concerning someone shooting a 12 g shotgun at a
sailboat at various distances. *At close range, no argument, 00
buckshot would go right thru the fiberglass. *At what range would it
not penetrate?
What about slugs?

I wouldn't bet against a slug going through just about any boat. We
had a junk car we used to shoot at in the garbage dump/range where we
shot as a kid *If you didn't hit something solid a slug would go in
one door and out the other side of the car. The seat back did a fairly
good job of stopping the slug,after going through the door, until it
came apart.

Standard powder load or load yourself?

I found a website called "The box of truth " or the "Truthbox" or
something like that where they actually did tests like this by firing
into a box that had various stopping materials. *At 30', the 00 shot
penetrated nearly everything. *However, I am talking about 300' where
I assume the shot is going much slower.

100 yards shooting say six feet off the ground you are already losing
half your height due to gravity and that increases exponentially as
the shot loses momentum.

00 might not even make 100 yards unless it's some kind of power load.

Rifled slug the same issue assuming the same weight as the 00 buckshot
- which is why I asked about standard or custom load in the shell.
With less weight, you might get an impact point, but it won't have
much penetrating power.

Fromhttp://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm
Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12
gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or
87 grains) in .410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle
velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps
from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These
are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other
gauges are similar.

The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12
gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but
only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the
slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100
yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better,
and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a
short range proposition.

He goes on to say the Brenneke slug is a lot better

These resemble Foster type slugs with one important difference: the
wad remains attached to the base of the slug. This provides a better
BC and stability in flight, a better shuttlecock, if you will. The
assembly is heavier than a plain rifled slug due to the weight of the
attached wad. The difference in retained energy at 100 yards is
considerable.

The original design of this type, as far as I know, is the German
Brenneke slug, offered by Rottweil. Brenneke rifled slugs still use
felt and fiber wads, and are suitable for use in smooth or rifled
shotgun barrels. Rottweil offers several slug loads in 12, 20, and
.410. Their 2 3/4" 12 gauge slug weighs 1 1/4 ounce, and their 3"
Magnum 20 gauge slug weighs a full 1 ounce.

A MV of 1476 fps and ME of 2538 are claimed for the 12 gauge 2 3/4"
Magnum load. More important is the 100 yard retained energy figure of
1170 ft. lbs.

Sounds like "experiment time" to me. Now, I gotta find an old boat
cut off some panels, take em in the woods and blast away.

It's been some time since I've been involved in the technical aspects
of shooting, but as I remember it, 920 ft. lbs isn't enough to bring
down a deer. 1170 is marginal. Then again, I never took a deer
outside of 60 yards with black powder - much longer than that with my
..308.

There's something called the Taylor Takedown Value or Taylor Knock Out
Factor where you can figure the the impact value of any given bullet,
any given powder load and bullet diameter.

And wouldn't you know it - somebody programmed it and put it on the
web.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/resc...php/taylor.htm

Damn - it's true - you can find anything on the innertubes. :)

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:04:43 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:52:46 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

It's been some time since I've been involved in the technical aspects
of shooting, but as I remember it, 920 ft. lbs isn't enough to bring
down a deer. 1170 is marginal. Then again, I never took a deer
outside of 60 yards with black powder - much longer than that with my
.308.

There's something called the Taylor Takedown Value or Taylor Knock Out
Factor where you can figure the the impact value of any given bullet,
any given powder load and bullet diameter.

And wouldn't you know it - somebody programmed it and put it on the
web.

It depends on where you hit the deer. I knew a game warden who told me
as many deer were killed with .22 rifles and any other single caliber.
(jaclklighters shooting them in the head)
I took one with a .357 pistol once.
The question on the table is whether it would knock a hole in a
fiberglass boat.

Yeah - I was just thinking about ft.lb. loads on live critters.

I'm betting it wouldn't - just because I'm taking a side.

I honestly don't care one way or the other. :) I need to knock a
hole in a boat for any reason I'm not going to be using a shot gun
that's for sure. :)

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:51:07 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:32:10 -0400, wrote:

I wouldn't bet against a slug going through just about any boat.

USCG uses 12 ga rifled slugs to disable fleeing outboards, shooting
directly at the blocks.

A rifled slug is something different. But you'd still have to be
close because of opposing wind resistance. It would do some damage to
the engine controls, injectors, carbs - whatever sit's on it, but I
doubt the slug will go through or penetrate the block enough to stop
it. In particular if the boat is moving at a fairly good clip.

So, what kind of motor is this that would stand up to a 12 ga. slug? I want
one.

Steve

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:28:39 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:51:07 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:32:10 -0400, wrote:

I wouldn't bet against a slug going through just about any boat.

USCG uses 12 ga rifled slugs to disable fleeing outboards, shooting
directly at the blocks.

A rifled slug is something different. But you'd still have to be
close because of opposing wind resistance. It would do some damage to
the engine controls, injectors, carbs - whatever sit's on it, but I
doubt the slug will go through or penetrate the block enough to stop
it. In particular if the boat is moving at a fairly good clip.

So, what kind of motor is this that would stand up to a 12 ga. slug? I want
one.

I'm pretty sure I said block. I'm sure you could stop an engine
running at speed by knocking off some piece of external equipment, but
I don't think a 12 guage shot gun slug will penetrate a block to the
extent that it will penetrate enough to do internal damage.

Maybe they do get that close - I don't know. I'm think more about a
standoff shot from over 50 yards.

Then again, every video I've seen of them blowing up outboards has
been with a .50 cal.

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:28:39 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:51:07 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:32:10 -0400, wrote:

I wouldn't bet against a slug going through just about any boat.

USCG uses 12 ga rifled slugs to disable fleeing outboards, shooting
directly at the blocks.

A rifled slug is something different. But you'd still have to be
close because of opposing wind resistance. It would do some damage to
the engine controls, injectors, carbs - whatever sit's on it, but I
doubt the slug will go through or penetrate the block enough to stop
it. In particular if the boat is moving at a fairly good clip.

So, what kind of motor is this that would stand up to a 12 ga. slug? I
want
one.

I'm pretty sure I said block. I'm sure you could stop an engine
running at speed by knocking off some piece of external equipment, but
I don't think a 12 guage shot gun slug will penetrate a block to the
extent that it will penetrate enough to do internal damage.

Maybe they do get that close - I don't know. I'm think more about a
standoff shot from over 50 yards.

Then again, every video I've seen of them blowing up outboards has
been with a .50 cal.

I'm just thinking of my motor. It's such a birdsnest of wires, gas lines,
carburetors, sensors, etc, etc, etc. I sit and look and look and look. I
look from this angle. I look from that angle. And I have yet to come up
with any angle or location where there is no vital component that would not
get damaged from a shotgun slug. And then, it's all covered with water
jacket panels. The only thing I can think of is to put a cowling made of
armor plate, but then the lower unit would still be exposed, and it would be
a dickens to get to plane out. I've had a couple of blocks apart, and I put
them back together. In some places, the aluminum was 1/8" to 1/4" thick. I
don't think that would stop a slug. There were places where it was thicker,
but then again, critical components were all around that area, and an
incoming or ricocheting round would take out something vital to the
operation of the motor.

I don't know about your motor, but mine gets tempermental after sitting in
my driveway for a couple of months getting hit by sand particles and moths
and tree leaves. I guess I must have a wimpy motor.

Steve

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:57:07 -0400, wrote:

I bet a slug will punch a hole in any fiberglass boat, as far away as
you can hit it from.

Take that to the extreme. If you got WAAAAAAAAY away, and did the luckiest
long shot you could do, you would have to aim so high that on the way down,
the round would be either at 45 degrees or maybe even more.

If you took the farthest distance that round would travel, took off fifty
feet, and use that as your toe line, how many times do you think you could
even hit the boat, and do you think it would penetrate? And are we talking
just hitting the boat, or hitting it so as to sink it? Lots of areas on a
boat are made of thinner fiberglass above the water line, the cosmetic
areas. And consider that most surfaces under the water line are not very
vertical, and would be angled away from you. And may be very thick.

I'll take that bet. It would be a fun day. Remember, the range is the
farthest distance that slug will travel less fifty feet. And holes in
plexiglass and fabric and anything other than fiberglass don't count.

Hell, I wish I knew where there was such a derelict boat. It would be worth
a hundred bucks in shells just for the fun of being a wannabe Mythbuster.
We need to send this to them. They invite such projects. Except, we'd have
beer.

Steve

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:48:53 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

I'm pretty sure I said block. I'm sure you could stop an engine
running at speed by knocking off some piece of external equipment, but
I don't think a 12 guage shot gun slug will penetrate a block to the
extent that it will penetrate enough to do internal damage.

Maybe they do get that close - I don't know. I'm think more about a
standoff shot from over 50 yards.

Then again, every video I've seen of them blowing up outboards has
been with a .50 cal.

Somewhere out on YouTube there is a training video where they
demonstrate shotgun technique with the shooter laying prone in the
front of a RIB, while they chase a target boat with fake outboards on
the back. Can't find it at the moment.

A shotgun is certainly a lot safer than a machine gun in congested
waters.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:30:30 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

Hell, I wish I knew where there was such a derelict boat. It would be worth
a hundred bucks in shells just for the fun of being a wannabe Mythbuster.

There are lots of derelict boats in Florida. They might even pay to
have them removed. You'd have to get enviro permits to sink them of
course.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:30:30 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

Hell, I wish I knew where there was such a derelict boat. It would be worth
a hundred bucks in shells just for the fun of being a wannabe Mythbuster.
We need to send this to them. They invite such projects. Except, we'd have
beer.

Maximun range is about a mile. Chances of even one hit with a
reasonable number of rounds? How big a target? How big a spotting
scope? Ten inch cassegrain?

Casady

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:30:30 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:

Hell, I wish I knew where there was such a derelict boat. It would be worth
a hundred bucks in shells just for the fun of being a wannabe Mythbuster.
We need to send this to them. They invite such projects. Except, we'd have
beer.

Maximun range is about a mile. Chances of even one hit with a
reasonable number of rounds? How big a target? How big a spotting
scope? Ten inch cassegrain?

Casady

I have a 1969 19 foot Colombian in my back yard in Essex if you want
it.. Take it away, please