Whales and Diverter Valves
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:

Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset
water intakes?

--Vic

This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have
seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge
water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling
water
passages and any blockage there means big trouble..
Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in
comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such
an
arrangement.
If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high
capacity low head pump that will really shift some water.

I don't have that but know of others who do. The raw water pump on a
large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more.
Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always
through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. If the boat is
sinking you do what you have to do.



I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea
for a last-resort situation.

If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it,
and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the
engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some
time.


Another point worth mentioning is that you must be very careful to watch
progress.
Should the bypass manage to suck the bilge dry you will be running your
engine without cooling water

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:00:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

http://www.boattest.com/Resources/vi...px?NewsID=3766

Not much to do about the whales, but the diverter valves to the bilge
are sure a good idea.
Never heard of that before and never even thought about it.
Seems I should have, since I was damage control (HT) when I did a USNR
stint.
But even my can in the regular Navy didn't have diverters on the
fireroom steam fire pumps (I knew about every square inch of the
bilges, and all piping runs/valving.) Would make a huge difference in
dewatering.
A strainer and minimal maintenance are a requirement.
Fast access to the diverter valve is another requirement.
Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset
water intakes?

As a secondary device, I could see it, but your not going to get a lot
of pump out power through an engine water pump - what, maybe 20/25
gallons a minute? If that?

If you are going to go to the extent of retrofitting, why not just get
a big honkin' pump and run it off the gear box or engine front end?

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:19:09 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:


As a secondary device, I could see it, but your not going to get a lot
of pump out power through an engine water pump - what, maybe 20/25
gallons a minute? If that?

Sounds about right. Reason I mentioned it is Boatest claims they've
been recommending such diverters for years. And the article indicates
they made a difference when the boat was holed by the whale.

If you are going to go to the extent of retrofitting, why not just get
a big honkin' pump and run it off the gear box or engine front end?

The diverter is basically a Y valve, length of suction hose, and a
strainer on the end. An added real water pump might be hard to do
on some boats.
Anyway, I'm for bare hulls and outboards. Get a hole just break out
the bubble gum, or stick a big cork in it. Or something like that.
Here's the hairy casualty control stuff
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-4f.htm

Looks like the captain of the Hull stepped off the port bridge wing
into the ocean as she went over and survived to write his report.
Dewey (DD 349) has a lot of detail.
As a former snipe I found some of this stuff pretty amazing.
Glad I wasn't there.

--Vic

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea
for a last-resort situation.

With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping
capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something
like this:

http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/iid_261/index.htm

or

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE

That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water
pump.

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Oct 5, 6:05*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea
for a last-resort situation.

With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping
capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something
like this:

http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/i...

or

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE

That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water
pump.

Much better alternative, IMHO ... for one thing, it can be routed to a
float switch & an alarm, so you know it's running, and if it's
running, you need it.

Usually if you have a leak so serious that using the engine raw water
pump to stop flooding, it's progressed too far for any diverters or Y-
suctions to do you any good.

Fresh Breezes- Doug K

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:

Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset
water intakes?

--Vic

This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I
have
seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge
water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling
water
passages and any blockage there means big trouble..
Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in
comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against
such an
arrangement.
If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high
capacity low head pump that will really shift some water.

I don't have that but know of others who do. The raw water pump on a
large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more.
Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always
through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. If the boat is
sinking you do what you have to do.



I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good
idea for a last-resort situation.

If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it,
and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the
engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some
time.


Another point worth mentioning is that you must be very careful to watch
progress.
Should the bypass manage to suck the bilge dry you will be running your
engine without cooling water

Yes, but I think I would be there watching... perhaps from the companion
way, so I could make a hasty retreat. :)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

"it's me" wrote in message
...
On Oct 5, 6:05 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good
idea
for a last-resort situation.

With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping
capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something
like this:

http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/i...

or

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE

That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water
pump.

Much better alternative, IMHO ... for one thing, it can be routed to a
float switch & an alarm, so you know it's running, and if it's
running, you need it.

Usually if you have a leak so serious that using the engine raw water
pump to stop flooding, it's progressed too far for any diverters or Y-
suctions to do you any good.


Perhaps, but a couple of things come to mind... first the Y valve is a lower
price (it's an unlikely possibility, but I suppose it's $200 or the cost of
my deductible)... then there's a place to mount the pump, the lines that
would need to be run, the electical, etc. Whereas, if it's just installing a
stopcock Y... also, the bilge pumps would be working also, so that would
assist the raw water pump in moving water.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:48:53 -0400, "mmc" wrote:

Vic,
I met a guy that had holed the hull on a 22' fishing boat (rebar on new
county ramps), drove the boat out to thier (Central Florida, Atlantic
side)
bottom fishing spot on plane (hull hole above water). It was a calm, flat
day.
Once at the fishing spot, boat drops off plane and water starts coming in.
They (owner +2) had time to get and write down a position fix from the
Loran
(this was late 80s), call the Coasties on VHF, disconnect and pack
electronics and fishing gear in a big cooler and don life jackets before
the
boat sank.
2 of the 3 were sport scuba divers. I'd have jumped in and plugged the
hole
with t-shirts/extra life jacket/neighbors cat/whatever, bailed and kept
bailing while motoring home. But then, I'd hope common sense would have
led
me to putting the boat back on the trailer to see what the heck all the
noise was from when launching and hitting the rebar.
He didn't admit it, but I suspect copius amounts of beer was involoved. I
hoped there was an excuse for this dumbassedness.
I don't think it was for insurance, the owner wanted my shop to recover
the
boat, old hull with a new motor and all the bolt on gear. He offered the
hull in exchange for the offshore salvage.
I told him to go find the boat and mark it with a bouy and then we'd talk
about what it was going to cost but we weren't going to do it for an old
hull with a hole in it.
He never came back. Don't know if he found it or even tried to.

Interesting. Were/are you a diver?
Seems most boaters don't think much about hole patch kits.
Common in the Navy and Merchant Marine.
Reminds me of the captain of the Rocket, an old Cleveland Tankers
oiler I did a few trips on as a watertender.
Think we were in Lake Huron when the captain put us dead in the water,
donned his scuba gear and went overboard with oakum and a fid.
Apparently somebody had spotted some leakage from the hull plates, so
he sealed them up with oakum.
A patch kit for a small boat shouldn't be hard to put together.
Maybe a sheet of visqueen and some glue/gunk that will hold it on
under water.
If I had a boat I'd look into it. Nice being prepared.
Of course when the **** really hits the fan it's a new ball game.
"What?!!"
"What do you mean the patch kit is in the garage?!"

--Vic

I was a Navy EOD Diver and an on and off inshore commercial diver for a few
years afterwards. Too many spoiled - college drop out - dope smoking punks
in that business for me. I decided I needed to do something else when I came
up the ladder one night and found the dive supe and standby diver smoking
pot. Me and another diver were relying on those idiots to help us if we got
into trouble. I knew they'd eventually get someone killed but it wasn't
going to be me.
The commercial schools used to turn out good divers, now they're just like
too many things, as long as daddys check clears, junior is going to get a
certificate.
In 2nd class diving school, we were trained to use tooker patches, and use
soft patches, cut and weld .
A friend told me of an instance where he mixed up a bunch (2-3 cups) of
epoxy glue and put it in a paper plate which was then folded in half. The
target was a 4-5 inch hole in a hull caused by rubbing on a piling. He dove
down, unfolded the plate and jammed it against the hole, holding there for
the 10 minutes or so until the epoxy kicked. Afterwards, they raised the
hull to the gunnels by crane and pumped the water out.
I agree that a simple patch kit would be a darn good idea: a piece of 3/8"
plywood could be stowed under a cushion, the cushion itself, a scrap of sail
cloth and line bundled, tapered wooden plugs and a mallet, and some sort of
plan that the skipper has shared with the crew.
Tapered plugs and a mallet are a definite must have. I believe more boats
are sunk by fixture failures than running into things.
So, why not have a boat Vic? Even just looking at boats is theraputic.

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Oct 5, 1:42*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message

...





On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:

Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset
water intakes?

--Vic

This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have
seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge
water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling water
passages and any blockage there means big trouble..
Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in
comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such
an
arrangement.
If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high
capacity low head pump that will really shift some water.

I don't have that but know of others who do. * The raw water pump on a
large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more.
Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always
through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. * If the boat is
sinking you do what you have to do.

I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't
think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making
this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag.
article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea
for a last-resort situation.

If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it, and
it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the engine,
which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some time.

--
"j" ganz - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your asking for problems jon. You will be more likely to loose an
engine than ever use the system. Y valves fail, plumbing leaks, ect..
overheated engine .. Just have a proper pump and a backup for the
pump. I've never seen any commerical boat set up with a diverter
system. If it were a good ideal they would be on every work boat.

Joe

Whales and Diverter Valves
 

On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:36:10 -0400, "mmc" wrote:



I was a Navy EOD Diver and an on and off inshore commercial diver for a few
years afterwards. Too many spoiled - college drop out - dope smoking punks
in that business for me. I decided I needed to do something else when I came
up the ladder one night and found the dive supe and standby diver smoking
pot. Me and another diver were relying on those idiots to help us if we got
into trouble. I knew they'd eventually get someone killed but it wasn't
going to be me.

Whoa. Not too confidence inspiring.
I was working for a plumber back during the Reagan admin after I got
laid off from my first IT job.
We're laying sewer pipe in a 5 foot ditch in an apartment building
basement when him and a friend of his who dropped by light up joints
and offered me one. I was never really into that, and certainly not
when working, so I passed. Maybe my 6th or 7th job with him.
Didn't bother me that Roy lit up, though it surprised me a bit.
Hardest working guy I ever saw, and a real good plumber.
Besides, unlike your situation, I could keep an eye on him.
And I already had 4 kids to feed.
Funny thing is he never called me back after I turned down that joint.
HE didn't trust ME.
The tokers I've run across were either stupid or paranoid.
Just my experience. Haven't known many.
Roy wasn't stupid.
When I was washing trucks at UPS a trailer sweeper kid who had totaled
his car was asking for a ride to work until he replaced it.
Same start time as me, so I told him I'd pick him up. Cost me maybe
10 minutes. Not even enough to ask for him to kick in for gas.
First day I stop in front of his house, he keeps me waiting 5 minutes,
then gets in my car with a lit joint. I laid down the law about that
real quick, and told him to be ready when I pulled up.
Reading a clock ain't exactly rocket science.
Next day he still keeps me waiting, and just reeks up the car with the
pot smell on his clothes. Told him not to keep me waiting.
Couldn't even talk to this guy during the 20 minute ride.
He was too pot-befuddled.
Third day same thing, and I told him to find another ride.
He was stupid. Too bad. But his folks probably loved him.

The commercial schools used to turn out good divers, now they're just like
too many things, as long as daddys check clears, junior is going to get a
certificate.
In 2nd class diving school, we were trained to use tooker patches, and use
soft patches, cut and weld .
A friend told me of an instance where he mixed up a bunch (2-3 cups) of
epoxy glue and put it in a paper plate which was then folded in half. The
target was a 4-5 inch hole in a hull caused by rubbing on a piling. He dove
down, unfolded the plate and jammed it against the hole, holding there for
the 10 minutes or so until the epoxy kicked. Afterwards, they raised the
hull to the gunnels by crane and pumped the water out.

I looked around for underwater glues and only found 2-part epoxies.
Was looking for a quick stickum to outline a hole, then slap a piece
of heavy visqueen on it. Just an idea. No scuba gear.
A tube of roof tar might work if water action isn't too bad.
Needs experimentation. Just talking about small FRP boats.
Another thought comes to mind. Stick an inflatable PFD in the hole
and pull the cord. Might be useful to carry some for that purpose.
Could be "armored" with something flexible and tough to prevent holing
the PFD.
Here's another idea.
An open plexi box maybe a foot square and 2 inches deep.
Open edges lined with thick soft foam to conform to hull.
Hole in middle of plexi to take nozzle from can of expanding foam.
Slap it against any hole not too big for the box, insert can and
inject foam.
Foam displaces water in the box and mushrooms inside hull, leaving
a 2 inch foam plate on the outside held by the mushroom inside.
Now you've got time to mix some epoxy and glue a sheet of something
stronger over the patch, and even pop open a bottle of beer if you
dare.
Just an idea. Details like what kind of expanding foam, force needed
to hold plexi box against hull, etc., to be determined.
I'll leave that to Froggy.

I agree that a simple patch kit would be a darn good idea: a piece of 3/8"
plywood could be stowed under a cushion, the cushion itself, a scrap of sail
cloth and line bundled, tapered wooden plugs and a mallet, and some sort of
plan that the skipper has shared with the crew.
Tapered plugs and a mallet are a definite must have. I believe more boats
are sunk by fixture failures than running into things.
So, why not have a boat Vic? Even just looking at boats is theraputic.

Can't keep a boat here. Have to wait until I move. Florida.

--Vic