Lunar boating
 

We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

Lunar boating
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.


I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 25, 8:08*am, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"



wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
....
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. *Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. *However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. *When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. *So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. *Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space sailing....
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. *In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. *Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. *Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.

Tom:

Being somewhat familiar with lightsails but being too lazy to
calculate right now, something about the" 6 mile wide sail boosting
the moon out of orbit" thing didn't sound right. Here is the flaw.
The moon is already a light sail a couple thousand miles wide and it
does not get boosted out of orbit.

This says nothing about boosting smaller objects with large sails.
However, the thrust/sq km of sail is very low necessitating very small
payloads, really small, in order to get to any substantial fraction of
c (speed of light).

Another similar idea is called Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion
or M2P2. It is a magnetic sail that interacts with the "solar wind"
of charged particles emanating from the sun. It uses a plasma
contained in a magnetic field to interact with solar protons. The
plasma gets "inflated" by injecting it into a mag field so it is miles
wide. Also low thrust.
One can increase the thrust of a lightsail by using high power lasers
pointing at it but even the best laser will diverge enough to have low
power density at astronomical distances. I have proposed to use
plasma lenses based on the M2P2 idea to re-focus said lasers on the
sail. These lenses would be miles in diameter and have extreme focal
lengths.

In my opinion, the 2nd best drive system for a prototype interstellar
probe would be something called Mini-Mag Orion that uses tiny fusion
explosions produced by laser driven inertial confinement. The plasma
from said explosions interacts with a mag field on spacecraft driving
it forward. Spacecraft would encounter fuel packets sent from solar
orbit that match its velocity so the spacecraft does not have to carry
the fuel. The fuel gets its speed from an accelerator in solar
orbit. It is called Orion after Freeman Dysons nuclear bomb driven
spaceship. I say it is second best because we currently cannot get
laser driven fusion done well.

Best near term drive system for an interstellar probe would be
something called a Nuclear Salt water Rocket where salts of uranium
dissolved in water are fed by nozzles to an area behind the rocket
where they reach critical mass forming a continuous nuke explosion
driving the rocket. Again, it gets its fuel from an accelerator in
solar orbit. I think this is more near term than the Mini Mag Orion
because it uses fission and does not rely on unknown technology. At
least this one uses water so is tangentially related to boats.

Lunar boating
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space
sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been
doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes
book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.


Thanks for all the cool references... I was never a fan of Deep Sh*t 9, but
I'll see if I can find the episode.

I don't near enough about DaVinci... just not enough time to read, work, and
stay semi-current with the news. Maybe I should look more favorable to human
cloning. lol

I'm going to try and find the Astounding issue. Asimov is one of my favorite
authors, unless I'm in my trash novel reading cycle... you know Danielle
Steel. I know, I know...

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?


Reflectiveness? Gravity effect of the Earth? No idea... interesting
question.

For that matter, why isn't the Earth being boosted?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 25, 1:34*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message

...

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?

Reflectiveness? Gravity effect of the Earth? No idea... interesting
question.

For that matter, why isn't the Earth being boosted?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Both (earth and moon) are being "boosted" by solar pressure,
effectively reducing the gravity of the sun by a tiny tiny amount.
Put your small payload in circular orbit about the sun WITHOUT the
sail and it goes happily about the sun. Unfurl your sail and suddenly
the orbit is perturbed a tiny amount due to the force on the sail.
Near the sun, assume the force due to sunlight is constant (it really
drops as 1/r^2) so your change in velocity of sail is then: v=t*F/m
where t is time your sail is unfurled, m is mass of sail + payload and
F is force due to sunlight. After some time, furl your sail and you
settle into a new orbit.

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 25, 2:13*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 1:34*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:



"Wayne.B" wrote in message

.. .

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?

Reflectiveness? Gravity effect of the Earth? No idea... interesting
question.

For that matter, why isn't the Earth being boosted?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Both (earth and moon) are being "boosted" by solar pressure,
effectively reducing the gravity of the sun by a tiny tiny amount.
Put your small payload in circular orbit about the sun WITHOUT the
sail and it goes happily about the sun. *Unfurl your sail and suddenly
the orbit is perturbed a tiny amount due to the force on the sail.
Near the sun, assume the force due to sunlight is constant (it really
drops as 1/r^2) so your change in velocity of sail is then: *v=t*F/m
where t is time your sail is unfurled, m is mass of sail + payload and
F is force due to sunlight. *After some time, furl your sail and you
settle into a new orbit.

Whether or not you escape from the sun and then go on to build up more
speed depends on the ratio of the force of the sun to the force due to
gravity and as both of these vary as 1/r^2, then this depends on the
size of the sail. Basically, at any distance you need a sail large
enough to outweigh gravity in order to escape from the sun, otherwise
you just change your orbit but stay in orbit about the sun.

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 25, 2:31*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Sep 25, 2:13*pm, Frogwatch wrote:



On Sep 25, 1:34*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote in message

.. .

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?

Reflectiveness? Gravity effect of the Earth? No idea... interesting
question.

For that matter, why isn't the Earth being boosted?

--
Nom=de=Plume

Both (earth and moon) are being "boosted" by solar pressure,
effectively reducing the gravity of the sun by a tiny tiny amount.
Put your small payload in circular orbit about the sun WITHOUT the
sail and it goes happily about the sun. *Unfurl your sail and suddenly
the orbit is perturbed a tiny amount due to the force on the sail.
Near the sun, assume the force due to sunlight is constant (it really
drops as 1/r^2) so your change in velocity of sail is then: *v=t*F/m
where t is time your sail is unfurled, m is mass of sail + payload and
F is force due to sunlight. *After some time, furl your sail and you
settle into a new orbit.

Whether or not you escape from the sun and then go on to build up more
speed depends on the ratio of the force of the sun to the force due to
gravity and as both of these vary as 1/r^2, then this depends on the
size of the sail. *Basically, at any distance you need a sail large
enough to outweigh gravity in order to escape from the sun, otherwise
you just change your orbit but stay in orbit about the sun.

More "Waaaaay too much information":
It turns out that a perfectly reflective (shiny) surface gets twice
the boost from sunlight that a perfectly absorbing (black) surface
does simply due to conservation of momentum.

Nothing worse than a physicist with time on his hands.

Lunar boating
 

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
Nothing worse than a physicist with time on his hands.


This is an inside joke right? Next time, just mention you wear a watch.
snerk.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:01:11 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:08:57 -0400, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:

He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years.

Not to be argumentative, but since the moon already has a surface area
far larger than 6 miles across, why isn't it being boosted out of
orbit as we speak ?

Heh - I know, counter-intuitive, but the answer is orbital mechanics.
I don't have the exact math on it, but the moon, planets - almost
everything is affected by photon radiation - you're right on the
score.

But the glue that holds it all together is gravity, momentum, etc.,
and it doesn't take much to upset the apple cart - that was the point
of the exercise.

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:32:36 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space
sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been
doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes
book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.

Thanks for all the cool references... I was never a fan of Deep Sh*t 9, but
I'll see if I can find the episode.

DS:9 - Season Three - Episode 22. You might find it on Hulu (doubt
it), but there are other TV episode sites where it could be found.
Netflix for sure.

Please don't ask me how I know that. :)

No - I'm not a Trekkie - hated DS:9 actually and only watched because
of Quark - loved the Ferengi. :) My kind of people.

I don't near enough about DaVinci... just not enough time to read, work, and
stay semi-current with the news. Maybe I should look more favorable to human
cloning. lol

Another scifi staple - clone memories. John Scalzi, in his "Old Mans'
War" trilogy, second book called "Ghost Brigades" really did it up
right - probably one of the best clone scifi stories ever written in
my opinion. If you like non-intensive military scifi (meaning Drake
or Ringo style mil-scifi), Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series is very
good. When I reviewed "Old Man's War" for my friend Ross Ruediger, I
called it the "anti Forever War" which was written by Joe Haldeman.
"Old Man's War" has it darker moments to be sure, but it's written in
a very light breezy style which is very easy to get into. "Forever
War" as about as dark as could be and very much a Vietnam War story
written into the future.

I'm going to try and find the Astounding issue. Asimov is one of my favorite
authors, unless I'm in my trash novel reading cycle... you know Danielle
Steel. I know, I know...

I know where mine is - I'll stop tomorrow and get the Edition number
and issue date off the cover.

Currently, I'm into urban fantasy - Glen Cook, Jim Butcher, Ilona
Andrews, Rachel Caine, Hamilton - yada, yada, yada. If you like
Danielle Steel, you would really like Laura Hamilton, Rachel Caine and
Charlaine Harris. There are quite a few female scifi authors who are
into the semi-romance urban fantasy genre.

Lunar boating
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:32:36 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space
sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been
doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes
book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.

Thanks for all the cool references... I was never a fan of Deep Sh*t 9,
but
I'll see if I can find the episode.

DS:9 - Season Three - Episode 22. You might find it on Hulu (doubt
it), but there are other TV episode sites where it could be found.
Netflix for sure.

Please don't ask me how I know that. :)

No - I'm not a Trekkie - hated DS:9 actually and only watched because
of Quark - loved the Ferengi. :) My kind of people.

I don't near enough about DaVinci... just not enough time to read, work,
and
stay semi-current with the news. Maybe I should look more favorable to
human
cloning. lol

Another scifi staple - clone memories. John Scalzi, in his "Old Mans'
War" trilogy, second book called "Ghost Brigades" really did it up
right - probably one of the best clone scifi stories ever written in
my opinion. If you like non-intensive military scifi (meaning Drake
or Ringo style mil-scifi), Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series is very
good. When I reviewed "Old Man's War" for my friend Ross Ruediger, I
called it the "anti Forever War" which was written by Joe Haldeman.
"Old Man's War" has it darker moments to be sure, but it's written in
a very light breezy style which is very easy to get into. "Forever
War" as about as dark as could be and very much a Vietnam War story
written into the future.

I'm going to try and find the Astounding issue. Asimov is one of my
favorite
authors, unless I'm in my trash novel reading cycle... you know Danielle
Steel. I know, I know...

I know where mine is - I'll stop tomorrow and get the Edition number
and issue date off the cover.

Currently, I'm into urban fantasy - Glen Cook, Jim Butcher, Ilona
Andrews, Rachel Caine, Hamilton - yada, yada, yada. If you like
Danielle Steel, you would really like Laura Hamilton, Rachel Caine and
Charlaine Harris. There are quite a few female scifi authors who are
into the semi-romance urban fantasy genre.


I just rented Watchmen... I really like Rorschach.... his line in prison...
"I'm not in here with you. You're in here with me." Maybe Jim should watch
that movie.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:13:52 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Sep 25, 8:08*am, Tom Francis - SWSports
wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:19:31 -0700, "nom=de=plume"



wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
We officially have "water on the moon" so let's have some lunar
boating ideas. *Only problem, it is basically some ice crystals mixed
with dust, not even good for ice boating. *However, I still think that
lunar lava tubes might have lots of ice and other volatile materials.
Lava contains lots of dissolved water vapor. *When it cools, the water
may come out of solution and freeze in the lava tube where there would
be no air movement to cause it to heat up. *So, maybe kayaking with
runners on the bottom in lunar lava tubes. *Could combine my three
interests, caves, boating and space.

I don't know about sailing on the moon, but how about just space sailing...
using solar sails from the engery of protons bouncing off. Nasa's been doing
some studies, but didn't this concept start with the Planet of the Apes book
published in 1963 (I actually read the book)?

Earlier than that - as early as 1913 ("light sail") and was based on a
"invention" by Leonardo DaVinci - he used a candle and reflected light
to move a paper mobile.

"Star Trek: Deep Space 9" did an episode in Season Three called
"Explorer", call it an homage to Thor Hyderdahl, where Commander Sisko
and his son Jake built a replica Bajoran vessel to prove that the
Bajorans had discovered interstellar travel before the Cadassians
which was powered by light pressure sails.

It's a sci-fi staple - I think every major sci-fi author has written
at least one light sail story. *In the late '50s, "Astounding"
magazine devoted an entire issue to it including a novella by Issac
Asimov - I have a copy, but it's in storage so I can't point you to
the issue number.

The actual concept is called radiation pressure. I've done an
experiment with a wide aperature laser to move a piece of paper about
four feet back in the day. :)

Orders of magnitude in sail size. *Larry Niven, a mathematician and
sci-fi author, developed a design for a light powered vessel in the
mid-70's. He estimated that a single sail, six miles across, could
boost an object the size of our moon out of orbit and complete one
grav of acceleration in ten years. Sails larger than that, the process
becomes quicker. *Doing some simple math, one could accelerate an
object the size of a semi-tractor to light speed in less than a year
with a six mile wide light sail.

It's a fascinating subject that's for sure.

Tom:

Being somewhat familiar with lightsails but being too lazy to
calculate right now, something about the" 6 mile wide sail boosting
the moon out of orbit" thing didn't sound right. Here is the flaw.
The moon is already a light sail a couple thousand miles wide and it
does not get boosted out of orbit.

It does appear to be counter-intuitive as I said to Wayne, but there's
a lot going on in terms of orbital mechanics, gravity, mass
accelleration, etc. Niven spent a couple of years on it when he was
writing "Ringworld" as he was interested in gravitational strains,
etc. I'm not saying he is absoutely correct, but I think at the time
he did the monograph on it, it wasn't rejected out of hand by
physicists.

This says nothing about boosting smaller objects with large sails.
However, the thrust/sq km of sail is very low necessitating very small
payloads, really small, in order to get to any substantial fraction of
c (speed of light).

It's the constant accelleration at one gravity that makes up the
difference. True, in a practical sense, it would be very hard to get
to a significant fraction of the speed of light, but as you very well
know, in the world of physics, reality doesn't always take precedence
over what we think of as common sense. :)

Another similar idea is called Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion
or M2P2. It is a magnetic sail that interacts with the "solar wind"
of charged particles emanating from the sun. It uses a plasma
contained in a magnetic field to interact with solar protons. The
plasma gets "inflated" by injecting it into a mag field so it is miles
wide. Also low thrust.
One can increase the thrust of a lightsail by using high power lasers
pointing at it but even the best laser will diverge enough to have low
power density at astronomical distances. I have proposed to use
plasma lenses based on the M2P2 idea to re-focus said lasers on the
sail. These lenses would be miles in diameter and have extreme focal
lengths.

In my opinion, the 2nd best drive system for a prototype interstellar
probe would be something called Mini-Mag Orion that uses tiny fusion
explosions produced by laser driven inertial confinement. The plasma
from said explosions interacts with a mag field on spacecraft driving
it forward. Spacecraft would encounter fuel packets sent from solar
orbit that match its velocity so the spacecraft does not have to carry
the fuel. The fuel gets its speed from an accelerator in solar
orbit. It is called Orion after Freeman Dysons nuclear bomb driven
spaceship. I say it is second best because we currently cannot get
laser driven fusion done well.

Best near term drive system for an interstellar probe would be
something called a Nuclear Salt water Rocket where salts of uranium
dissolved in water are fed by nozzles to an area behind the rocket
where they reach critical mass forming a continuous nuke explosion
driving the rocket. Again, it gets its fuel from an accelerator in
solar orbit. I think this is more near term than the Mini Mag Orion
because it uses fission and does not rely on unknown technology. At
least this one uses water so is tangentially related to boats.

Heh, heh heh - nice one.

I'm familiar with those proposed techniques, but there's something
about throwing up a couple of hectacres of reflective fabric attached
to a space vessel that appeals to me for some reason.

Because I'm an old fart and having read a lot of scifi over the years,
I can't remember the name, but there was a series done in the late
'70s about sailing ships in space. They were operated exactly in the
same fashion as one would operate a sail vessel today with sail hands
and such like that - extremely detailed - entire families living in
the rigging because the rigs were miles high and wide - villages at
different levels - people never even seeing the deck because of
distance - it was fairly detailed and very interesting. I can't
remember who the author was or the name of the series. You would
probably really enjoy it as it had a lot of science and technology in
it.

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:27:04 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I just rented Watchmen... I really like Rorschach.... his line in prison...
"I'm not in here with you. You're in here with me."

Jackie Earl Haley - a very good and long time foil Ross Ruediger is
best buds with JEH. I met him several times - very interesting guy.
He's actually kind of like Rorschach in a lot of ways - you might say
it was "type casting". :)

I really liked "Watchmen". I honestly don't know what Alan Moore was
****ed off about - it stayed reasonably true to the graphic novel. "V
for Vendetta" on the other hand was an abortion compared to the novel
- he did have a point there even though from a visual standpoint it
was incredible.

Lunar boating
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:27:04 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I just rented Watchmen... I really like Rorschach.... his line in
prison...
"I'm not in here with you. You're in here with me."

Jackie Earl Haley - a very good and long time foil Ross Ruediger is
best buds with JEH. I met him several times - very interesting guy.
He's actually kind of like Rorschach in a lot of ways - you might say
it was "type casting". :)

I really liked "Watchmen". I honestly don't know what Alan Moore was
****ed off about - it stayed reasonably true to the graphic novel. "V
for Vendetta" on the other hand was an abortion compared to the novel
- he did have a point there even though from a visual standpoint it
was incredible.


I need to read the book. I usually do that before the movie, but I got
sucked into watching it with a guy friend. I thought going in.. nearly 3
hours?! But, I didn't want it to end.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 25, 7:19*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:dfdqb5ljn349mhqr64skausilqp3uvv283@4ax .com...



On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:27:04 -0700, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

I just rented Watchmen... I really like Rorschach.... his line in
prison...
"I'm not in here with you. You're in here with me."

Jackie Earl Haley - a very good and long time foil Ross Ruediger is
best buds with JEH. *I met him several times - very interesting guy.
He's actually kind of like Rorschach in a lot of ways - you might say
it was "type casting". *:)

I really liked "Watchmen". *I honestly don't know what Alan Moore was
****ed off about - it stayed reasonably true to the graphic novel. "V
for Vendetta" on the other hand was an abortion compared to the novel
- he did have a point there even though from a visual standpoint it
was incredible.

I need to read the book. I usually do that before the movie, but I got
sucked into watching it with a guy friend. I thought going in.. nearly 3
hours?! But, I didn't want it to end.

--
Nom=de=Plume

I dont watch any sci fi (ok, i have no attention span for tv or movies
at all) and do not read much of it either mostly cuz the writing is
soooooo bad. I picked up a book by a guy with the last name of
"Ringo" to read while doing mindless stuff and had to throw it away
half way thru it was so bad. First Ringworld book was "ok", second
was boring and stupid.
The real thing, reading science blogs is to me far more interesting
although I admit it bores others. Us geeks never change I s'pose.
Years ago when I watched Star Trek I hated it. Every episode ended
with some BS like "I've got it, we can cross phase the neutrino
generator with the proton de-polarizer and reverse the field" or some
other stupid techno-mantra. When they put Whoopui Goldberg on Star
Trek, my skin crawled, touchy feelly drivel, ugh.
Yeah, real science is slow but pay attention to several fields at once
and it gets better.
I truly think amateurs should do science and not leave it to the
corrupt scientific priesthood. When you have 50 authors on a paper
and somebody wins a Nobel for managerial excellence, real science is
dead.

Lunar boating
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:25:52 -0700 (PDT), Katie Ohara
wrote:


I dont watch any sci fi (ok, i have no attention span for tv or movies
at all) and do not read much of it either mostly cuz the writing is
soooooo bad. I picked up a book by a guy with the last name of
"Ringo" to read while doing mindless stuff and had to throw it away
half way thru it was so bad.

I never quite understood the fascination with Ringo's Posleen War
books - the first one was ok, never made it through the second. He has
a very repetitive style that is annoying. David Drake's "Hammer's
Slammers" series is uneven at best and for the rest of his material,
once you've read one, you've read them all.

Keith Laumer wrote a series about sentient heavy tanks that never got
the recognition it deserved - very well written.

First Ringworld book was "ok", second was boring and stupid.

The second was a "contract" book - had to write it. He's admitted
that the second Ringworld book was less than a stellar effort.

The real thing, reading science blogs is to me far more interesting
although I admit it bores others. Us geeks never change I s'pose.

Heh - you must be self-isolating then. Most "geeks" read a lot of
scifi and even write it. Geek based fan fiction is almost a
sub-industry of the scifi genre. Most of it's crap, but occasionally
you run into something half way decent and every once in a while a
novella or treatment that is truly outstanding.

Years ago when I watched Star Trek I hated it. Every episode ended
with some BS like "I've got it, we can cross phase the neutrino
generator with the proton de-polarizer and reverse the field" or some
other stupid techno-mantra.

It became a running joke among scifi fans with "Star Trek: The Next
Generation", "Deep Space Nine" and "Voyager" - reversing the polarity
of the tachyon beam and running it through the deflector dish seemed
to be the solution to everything. Those three series also brought
into the lexicon "FOTW" - Forehead Of The Week or "EOTW" - Ear Of The
Week. Rocky O'Bannon, one of the original writers for the original
series, actually combined the two concepts when he created the
Ferengi. :)

Despite the FOTW/EOTW syndrome, a lot of the Star Trek technology and
"science" is based on real world physics and research. You may or may
not be aware of it, but physicists have a working theory about "warp"
drive and some of the medical stuff, like the diagnostic beds monitors
and such are being developed.

When they put Whoopui Goldberg on Star Trek, my skin crawled,
touchy feelly drivel, ugh.

Voted the worst Star Trek character EVER. :)

And that's saying something because all the Star Treks had some real
doozies for characters.

Yeah, real science is slow but pay attention to several fields at once
and it gets better.

I suppose, but I've done enough dissertations, thesis papers, research
and peer reviewing in my life to have lost a lot of respect for modern
"scientists". Since I've been involved in computer modeling, I've
become more convinced that a lot of the "science" is politically
motivated more than scientifically motivated. The inter-disciplinary
sniping also drives me nuts.

I truly think amateurs should do science and not leave it to the
corrupt scientific priesthood. When you have 50 authors on a paper
and somebody wins a Nobel for managerial excellence, real science is
dead.

Heh - hafl the time the amateurs do a better job of it than the pros.

Lunar boating
 

"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
message ...
When they put Whoopui Goldberg on Star Trek, my skin crawled,
touchy feelly drivel, ugh.

Voted the worst Star Trek character EVER. :)

Nah... Wesley... ugg. They even tried to imply that he was masculine at one
point.

Who's the best character? I like Lt. Broccoli. I mean Barklay.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Lunar boating
 

On Sep 26, 1:53*pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:kfdrb5lpr5eo0ucv37o4b4jj56gq0620hr@4ax .com...

When they put Whoopui Goldberg on Star Trek, my skin crawled,
touchy feelly drivel, ugh.

Voted the worst Star Trek character EVER. *:)

Nah... Wesley... ugg. They even tried to imply that he was masculine at one
point.

Who's the best character? I like Lt. Broccoli. I mean Barklay.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Politically motivated science, NO,say it aint so!

Lunar boating
 

"Katie Ohara" wrote in message
...
On Sep 26, 1:53 pm, "nom=de=plume" wrote:
"Tom Francis - SWSports" wrote in
messagenews:kfdrb5lpr5eo0ucv37o4b4jj56gq0620hr@4ax .com...

When they put Whoopui Goldberg on Star Trek, my skin crawled,
touchy feelly drivel, ugh.

Voted the worst Star Trek character EVER. :)

Nah... Wesley... ugg. They even tried to imply that he was masculine at
one
point.

Who's the best character? I like Lt. Broccoli. I mean Barklay.

--
Nom=de=Plume

Politically motivated science, NO,say it aint so!


Politically motivated? I don't see the connection. I just like him as an
actor.

--
Nom=de=Plume