Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore

Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 04:43:23 AM PDT

I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General
Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made
it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled.

As I sit here in GM's birthplace, Flint, Michigan, I am surrounded by
friends and family who are filled with anxiety about what will happen to
them and to the town. Forty percent of the homes and businesses in the
city have been abandoned. Imagine what it would be like if you lived in
a city where almost every other house is empty. What would be your state
of mind?

It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned
obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after
a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has
now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the
public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they
could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that
wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought
environmental and safety regulations. Its executives arrogantly ignored
the "inferior" Japanese and German cars, cars which would become the
gold standard for automobile buyers. And it was hell-bent on punishing
its unionized workforce, lopping off thousands of workers for no good
reason other than to "improve" the short-term bottom line of the
corporation. Beginning in the 1980s, when GM was posting record profits,
it moved countless jobs to Mexico and elsewhere, thus destroying the
lives of tens of thousands of hard-working Americans. The glaring
stupidity of this policy was that, when they eliminated the income of so
many middle class families, who did they think was going to be able to
afford to buy their cars? History will record this blunder in the same
way it now writes about the French building the Maginot Line or how the
Romans cluelessly poisoned their own water system with lethal lead in
its pipes.

So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company's body not
yet cold, and I find myself filled with -- dare I say it -- joy. It is
not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and
brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental
debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I,
obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be
told that they, too, are without a job.

But you and I and the rest of America now own a car company! I know, I
know -- who on earth wants to run a car company? Who among us wants $50
billion of our tax dollars thrown down the rat hole of still trying to
save GM? Let's be clear about this: The only way to save GM is to kill
GM. Saving our precious industrial infrastructure, though, is another
matter and must be a top priority. If we allow the shutting down and
tearing down of our auto plants, we will sorely wish we still had them
when we realize that those factories could have built the alternative
energy systems we now desperately need. And when we realize that the
best way to transport ourselves is on light rail and bullet trains and
cleaner buses, how will we do this if we've allowed our industrial
capacity and its skilled workforce to disappear?

Thus, as GM is "reorganized" by the federal government and the
bankruptcy court, here is the plan I am asking President Obama to
implement for the good of the workers, the GM communities, and the
nation as a whole. Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to
warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power
structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have
been avoided. Based on my track record, I request an honest and sincere
consideration of the following suggestions:

1. Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor,
the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must
immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass
transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint
in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly
lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no
time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated.

We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have
conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own
corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered
in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler
are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for
global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call
"cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers
into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only
lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet.

The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies
against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can,
and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is
located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it
bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who
didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every
forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling
the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more
decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil
approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill
and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline.

President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to
convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately.

2. Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build
cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most
of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the
new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion
work now.

3. Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this
country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th
anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of
them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30
seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades
-- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already
exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that
we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the
new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less
than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five
and a half. This can be done and done now.

4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all
our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM
factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system.

5. For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the
GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses.

6. For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or
all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people
to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to
have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building
these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years
to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true).

7. Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build
windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We
need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager
and skilled workforce who can build them.

8. Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus
or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative
energy.

9. To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of
gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or
to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have
built for them.

Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a
smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or
Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into
a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to
fill the car.

100 years ago this year, the founders of General Motors convinced the
world to give up their horses and saddles and buggy whips to try a new
form of transportation. Now it is time for us to say goodbye to the
internal combustion engine. It seemed to serve us well for so long. We
enjoyed the car hops at the A&W. We made out in the front -- and the
back -- seat. We watched movies on large outdoor screens, went to the
races at NASCAR tracks across the country, and saw the Pacific Ocean for
the first time through the window down Hwy. 1. And now it's over. It's a
new day and a new century. The President -- and the UAW -- must seize
this moment and create a big batch of lemonade from this very sour and
sad lemon.

Yesterday, the last surviving person from the Titanic disaster passed
away. She escaped certain death that night and went on to live another
97 years.

So can we survive our own Titanic in all the Flint Michigans of this
country. 60% of GM is ours. I think we can do a better job.

Yours,
Michael Moore

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore


(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.
American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

--Vic

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore


(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.
American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

--Vic




It took me years to realize that Wall Street and everything connected to
it was a fraud.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore


(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.
American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

--Vic




It took me years to realize that Wall Street and everything connected to
it was a fraud.

It didn't take nearly that long for me to realize that Harry Krause, of
jingle writing fame, is a fraud.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned
obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after
a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has
now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the
public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they
could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that
wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought
environmental and safety regulations.

I have thought all GM products are **** for thirty years or more.
Don't buy from them unless you want a Corvette, something without any
affordable competition.

Ford is somewhat healthy because that have some good products, like
the most popular ride for decades, the F-150 pickup truck.

I don't know why a gussied up F-150 truck, the Lincoln Navigator,
needs a four cam engine, but it went 170 000 miles before the first
hint of old age. A leaking valve guide. It doesn't need four valves
per hole, either. Most cars will last at least 250 000 miles if you
treat them right. Daughter has a Lumina. Seven grand with under 10 000
on it. We call it the ****box.

The spark plugs on all modern cars have platinum plugs that you are
supposed to change at 100 000 miles. It takes two hours to change
them. The family boat with the flathead six has a lift off doghouse
that ninty percent exposes the motor. You could change the plugs in
two minutes with a Crescent wrench. We put in a Buick V-6 which raised
top speed from 3200 RPM to 3700.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:56:14 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore


(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.

Obi wan kenobi says "look over there, there's nothing here to see..."

American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

Best idea I've heard.

I do think that Moore is on the right track by pointing out that our
underutilized industrial capacity can produce goods other than cars.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:09:26 -0400, jim78 wrote:

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore


(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.
American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

--Vic




It took me years to realize that Wall Street and everything connected to
it was a fraud.

It didn't take nearly that long for me to realize that Harry Krause, of
jingle writing fame, is a fraud.

Another **** on patrol. Are you on a 4 hour watch?

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

jps wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:09:26 -0400, jim78 wrote:

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:56:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Goodbye, GM
by Michael Moore

(snip)

Michael Moore doesn't know how to make GM right.
And neither does GM.
I just saw its CFO in an interview.
He was asked about American jobs.
He bragged that 66% of GM vehicles bought by Americans are made by
Americans.
Then he was asked to allay worries that GM cars will be made in China.
He bragged that 99% of GM cars bought by Chinese are made in China.
He didn't bat an eye. Saw nothing odd about what he had said.
Neither than the interviewer.
American management. American in-depth press.
Of course the DJIA is up 250 points on news of the GM bankruptcy.
Anybody with sense knows that if the southern hemisphere was wiped
out by a meteor, the Dow would surge on news that the northern
hemisphere didn't get hit.
American business is corrupt.
The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

--Vic



It took me years to realize that Wall Street and everything connected to
it was a fraud.
It didn't take nearly that long for me to realize that Harry Krause, of
jingle writing fame, is a fraud.

Another **** on patrol. Are you on a 4 hour watch?


Jingle-writing? I haven't written jingles for advertisers in 35 years.
Oh...GC Boater...you got him pegged. He's another permanent resident of
the bozo bin.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

Well said. But that could also be said about any failing business. Just
turf the budy board room Harvard/yale games and get real tallent.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:56:14 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

You've got to be kidding; they wouldn't know what to do with the mess
left behind. The best bet would be to lease out the best of the
production lines, and sell off the rest for what ever they can get.
There is no hope for GM with a labor friendly government owning half
of the company and the unions owning another big piece.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:16:20 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:56:14 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.

You've got to be kidding; they wouldn't know what to do with the mess
left behind. The best bet would be to lease out the best of the
production lines, and sell off the rest for what ever they can get.
There is no hope for GM with a labor friendly government owning half
of the company and the unions owning another big piece.

I don't think there's much left of GM. @60k employees.
Wages are almost down to that of the non-union imports.
The retirement/health plans are being jettisoned.
But their management is stuck in '50's, 60's type mentality.
Cars are "romantic."
Yeah, well business isn't. It's about profit.
That's something Honda and Toyota know.

--Vic

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:16:20 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:56:14 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.
You've got to be kidding; they wouldn't know what to do with the mess
left behind. The best bet would be to lease out the best of the
production lines, and sell off the rest for what ever they can get.
There is no hope for GM with a labor friendly government owning half
of the company and the unions owning another big piece.

I don't think there's much left of GM. @60k employees.
Wages are almost down to that of the non-union imports.
The retirement/health plans are being jettisoned.
But their management is stuck in '50's, 60's type mentality.
Cars are "romantic."
Yeah, well business isn't. It's about profit.
That's something Honda and Toyota know.

--Vic


I've gotten a few chuckles reading the complaints of the
"corporationists" that a 31-year-old "kid" from the Obama admin is sorta
telling GM what to do. Right, as if the 40 to 65 year old "seasoned"
auto execs that were running GM had a clue.

The U.S. auto industry has failed, and the failure is absolutely,
completely, totally the responsibiity of auto company management, boards
of directors, and shareholders, and the U.S. government and voters who
have and are still resisting the sorts of measures it takes to help our
car companies stay competitive with Asian producers.

The righties would like nothing more than to have disposable employees
who work for crap wages without decent working conditions, without
health care insurance for themselves and their families, and without a
viable retirement program. That, they think, will make us "competitive"
with the rest of the word.

Bull****.

Workers in most modern countries are not dependent upon their employers
for health insurance and many other benefits, and higher education for
their children is either free or highly subsidized by the state.

Perhaps if the U.S. car manufacturers "woke up" a few decades earlier
and discovered the Japanese were just killing them on quality, and that
quality mattered to buyers, they'd be in better shape today. Or perhaps
instead of supporting multiple car lines that were identical but for the
name badge, and the tremendous number of dealers such "duplicity"
required, and worked on customer satisfaction instead...well...

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

"HK" wrote in message
m...
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:16:20 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:56:14 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

The only hope for GM is to pirate Honda and Toyota management
to run it.
You've got to be kidding; they wouldn't know what to do with the mess
left behind. The best bet would be to lease out the best of the
production lines, and sell off the rest for what ever they can get.
There is no hope for GM with a labor friendly government owning half
of the company and the unions owning another big piece.

I don't think there's much left of GM. @60k employees.
Wages are almost down to that of the non-union imports.
The retirement/health plans are being jettisoned.
But their management is stuck in '50's, 60's type mentality.
Cars are "romantic."
Yeah, well business isn't. It's about profit.
That's something Honda and Toyota know.

--Vic


I've gotten a few chuckles reading the complaints of the "corporationists"
that a 31-year-old "kid" from the Obama admin is sorta telling GM what to
do. Right, as if the 40 to 65 year old "seasoned" auto execs that were
running GM had a clue.

The U.S. auto industry has failed, and the failure is absolutely,
completely, totally the responsibiity of auto company management, boards
of directors, and shareholders, and the U.S. government and voters who
have and are still resisting the sorts of measures it takes to help our
car companies stay competitive with Asian producers.

The righties would like nothing more than to have disposable employees who
work for crap wages without decent working conditions, without health care
insurance for themselves and their families, and without a viable
retirement program. That, they think, will make us "competitive" with the
rest of the word.

Bull****.

Workers in most modern countries are not dependent upon their employers
for health insurance and many other benefits, and higher education for
their children is either free or highly subsidized by the state.

Perhaps if the U.S. car manufacturers "woke up" a few decades earlier and
discovered the Japanese were just killing them on quality, and that
quality mattered to buyers, they'd be in better shape today. Or perhaps
instead of supporting multiple car lines that were identical but for the
name badge, and the tremendous number of dealers such "duplicity"
required, and worked on customer satisfaction instead...well...

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.




and corrupt unions.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:50:16 -0400, "Wishingtobefishing"
wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.




and corrupt unions.

That was largely a fault of management also. They were never willing
to take the long term view, suffer through a big strike, move work to
non-union suppliers/low cost venues, and build up the automation and
other production efficiencies that were needed. Meanwhile they
played the consumer for suckers by trying to sell the sizzle without
the steak.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:50:16 -0400, "Wishingtobefishing"
wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.



and corrupt unions.

That was largely a fault of management also. They were never willing
to take the long term view, suffer through a big strike, move work to
non-union suppliers/low cost venues, and build up the automation and
other production efficiencies that were needed. Meanwhile they
played the consumer for suckers by trying to sell the sizzle without
the steak.



Management gets the relationship with employees it deserves.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Jun 2, 10:09*am, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:50:16 -0400, "Wishingtobefishing"

wrote:
There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

and corrupt unions.

That was largely a fault of management also. * They were never willing
to take the long term view, suffer through a big strike, move work to
non-union suppliers/low cost venues, and build up the automation and
other production efficiencies that were needed. * Meanwhile they
played the consumer for suckers by trying to sell the sizzle without
the steak.

I realized something the other night watching the news and the GM
debacle. Whenever you see an auto worker, you always see him with a
union logo on his shirt, etc. Always about the union. Maybe, just
maybe, if they would put the company that pays them first, they
wouldn't be in the mess they're in. It's almost like they are
brainwashed. Union this, union that. The union that TAKES from you.
Never do you hear them say anything like we're going to work harder
for General Motors because we want them to succeed. Making the company
that pays you succeed should be your number one priority if you want
that job. It's not hard to understand that if you aren't making the
company you work for money because you are a slacker, then that
company is going to fail.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:27:22 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

But their management is stuck in '50's, 60's type mentality.
Cars are "romantic."

I believe a CEO of Rolls Royce said that they were in the business or
making the worlds finest autos. They were supposed to be in the
business of making a profit, but they couldn't manage that. The highly
successful aircraft engines were supporting the cars. VW has these
1000 hp cars that sell for over a mil, and cost nearly ten to build.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:27:22 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

But their management is stuck in '50's, 60's type mentality.
Cars are "romantic."

I believe a CEO of Rolls Royce said that they were in the business or
making the worlds finest autos. They were supposed to be in the
business of making a profit, but they couldn't manage that. The highly
successful aircraft engines were supporting the cars. VW has these
1000 hp cars that sell for over a mil, and cost nearly ten to build.

VW's are chick cars. They need a 1000 hp car to get the interest of men.

Rabbit? Passat? Cabriolet?

Tuareg -- What idiot did the market research on that name.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Pluse the guy gets to retire after 30 years on near full pension with
full coverage medical, dental and vision. If only I could have suffered
the boredom.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:46:35 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

--Vic

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Casady


The number you are quoting rolls in the health care and retirement costs
of retired workers. The actual hourly rate for a new hire autoworker is
much, much lower than that.

Possibly you do not understand the role of a labor union. Its job is to
defend its members and negotiate for them the best possible wages,
benefits, hours, and working conditions. In recent years, those
negotiations have been aimed at making it possible for workers and
retirees to have decent family health care and a decent retirement.

Had GM, the other automakers, and the corporate employers of other
workers in manufacturing fields embraced the concept of taxpayer-paid
health care and retirement for workers, as most other modern nations
have, the hourly cost for assembly line workers would not be nearly as
high as it is now.

Most conservatives seem to want blue collar workers and construction
workers to toil for crap wages, without any benefits for health care and
pension. If that is the way this country goes, well, it isn't worth
salvaging.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size. 8000 rpm valve train on a
5000 rpm mill. The motor might look cool, but it so buried under
accessories that you can barely see it. Two hours to change the plugs,
not the two minutes a flathead takes. Luckily they look good after 100
000 miles.

Casady


"...attributable to bad management."

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Jun 2, 12:10*pm, HK wrote:
Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:47:06 -0400, HK wrote:

There are many factors involved in the demise of the Big Three. All of
them are attributable to bad management.

You think the unions are blameless? It cost 75 an hour to have a guy
tighten lug nuts.

Casady

Most conservatives seem to want blue collar workers and construction
workers to toil for crap wages, without any benefits for health care and
pension. If that is the way this country goes, well, it isn't worth
salvaging.

This from the person who almost daily has something to say about
someone who chose a career path that they didn't need a degree to
persue, or didn't have the resources to obtain a degree that they
could use. SO, same with the union workers. If they don't want to toil
for crap wages, then go to school. I don't know of one union worker
who has been forced to take the job he's on.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:56:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

Car geek and Lincoln do not go on the same page.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:56:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Sixteen extra valves. And there is not much chrome.They used the
existing Lincoln mill, not one cooked up to justify the higher cost
than the Ford. The question is why does any Lincoln need that. The
mill would look cool, if you could only see it. Remember the Jags with
the DOHC inline six? They looked cool. The Lincoln is fender to fender
grill to firewall accessories. Like the kitty practical joke laundry
basket with the towels covering up the dog.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:56:27 -0400, BAR wrote:

When you are paying $15,000 more for a Navigator than an Expedition you
have to get something for your money. Eight extra valves and some gaudy
chrome seems a good trade off for $15,000.

Sixteen extra valves. And there is not much chrome.They used the
existing Lincoln mill, not one cooked up to justify the higher cost
than the Ford. The question is why does any Lincoln need that. The
mill would look cool, if you could only see it. Remember the Jags with
the DOHC inline six? They looked cool. The Lincoln is fender to fender
grill to firewall accessories. Like the kitty practical joke laundry
basket with the towels covering up the dog.

Isn't the stanard 5.4L three valves per cylinder now?

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:56:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

Car geek and Lincoln do not go on the same page.

Casady


Work a stain that looks like jesus on them, and then sell 'em on eBay
for $1000 each.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

HK wrote:
Richard Casady wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:56:26 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Main reason for DOHC is car geeks buy them.
That's pretty much it.
You can get into all kinds of arguments about valve train slack,
aspiration, cylinder head combustion gas flow, better 60-70 mph
passing speeds, etc.
But the reason they sell is car geeks buy them.

Car geek and Lincoln do not go on the same page.

Casady


Work a stain that looks like jesus on them, and then sell 'em on eBay
for $1000 each.


Whoops. Wrong message.

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:46:45 -0400, BAR wrote:

sn't the stanard 5.4L three valves per cylinder now?

Maybe they are now, but ours has four. Our Aggrivator is an 02.
Cadillac had the 32 valve Northstar, and Lincoln had to have the same.
The thing has some wood accents, very nice walnut, on the steering
wheel, a bit on the dash and doors. So I call it the Sliverado. It is
a truck, as is another vehicle with a similar name.

Casady

Michael More on GM, Future Autobuilding, Jobs
 

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...

What they did that was guaranteed fatal was offer bad product. Lincoln
offered an SUV based on the Ford F-150 truck. So far so good, although
the Navigator rides like the soft sprung truck it is. My question is
why does it need an expensive four cam 32 valve motor? It is no more
powerful than a pushrod motor the same size.


I don't know about that.

My wife drives an '08 Navigator. I drive an '08 Ford F-250. Both have
the 5.4L engine, but hers is the 32 valve variety and is rated higher in
horsepower. It is very noticeable. Agreed, our transmission are different
..... the Navigator has the regular Ford transmission that is used in the
F-150 series. My truck has the newer "TorqueShift" transmission that are
used in the Super Duties and are designed for towing.

But, her Navigator has a lot more "pick-up" than my truck.

I think I've mentioned this before, but her Navigator is really a very nice
vehicle to drive, unlike the earlier versions that were too sloppy and
underpowered. Her first was a 2001 model (I think) and I used to joke that
it needed a bow thruster to maneuver. Her second was a 2006 and was much
better. The '08 is much, much better than both the others.

She skipped the '04 model and bought one of those Lincoln Mark something
pickup trucks instead.
She liked it, but went back to the Navigator.

Eisboch