Socialized medicine.
 

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

Socialized medicine.
 

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut



Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

I have had many occasions to get treatment at the VA hospital in Wash
DC. I have no gripes about the treatment I've recieved. The facility
and the promptness of care both improved greatly under the Bush
administration. But, they weren't bad before. Much of the VA griping
comes from liberals who've not used the facility.
--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

Socialized medicine.
 

wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?


There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.


Interesting that no one pointed out the impossible load of bull****
Herring is trying to sell. The study in the survey compared Canada with
European countries, most of which have much more highly evolved
socialized medicine than does our neighbor to the north.


In 2008 the Health Consumer Powerhouse (HCP) and the Frontier Centre for
Public Policy presented the first Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index.
This marked the induction of Canada into a comprehensive benchmarking
exercise that analyzes the consumer responsiveness among 29 national
European healthcare systems.

The Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index (ECHCI) was an alarm bell, as it
showed that Canada was placed in the bottom quarter of the Index –
though it spent more money to achieve worse results than a large number
of European competitors. In specific:


- - -

• Canadians suffer from a healthcare system officially based on equity
and solidarity – but in reality it is a sub-standard one that ***denies
Canadian healthcare consumers many of the services taken for granted in
Europe***;

• Patient rights, access to information, and choice and services without
delay are underdeveloped in Canada and deliver low value for the money
spent;

• The positive part of the comparison is that the quality of treatment –
when delivered – puts Canada on par with most European countries.


- - -


(In other words, the problems up north are not with socialized medicine
but with Canada's implementation and operation of it)


The authors believe in the power of benchmarks. The lesson from the
HCP’s five years of healthcare benchmarking is that comparisons count.
Weak or excellent performances among the national healthcare systems are
highlighted as good examples. But to serve the intended purpose,
stakeholders must take action when the alarm bell rings.

The 2008 Index caused a stir within Canada. But that is far from enough.
Governments, patients and consumers now have a better foundation for
taking action. This year’s Index will provide additional fuel for that
fire as it confirms the poor cross-Atlantic position of Canada; 2008
evidently was no isolated poor score on Canada’s part.

Canada can ill-afford another lost year without closing the gap and the
question remains: why should Canadians be satisfied with a level of
(poor) care that is becoming outdated in Europe?

Executive Summary

In this second annual Euro-Canada Health Consumer Index (ECHCI), Canada
ends up in 23rd place. This year’s winner, the Netherlands, scores 824
points out of 1,000 edging out runner-up and last year’s winner,
Austria, by a margin of eleven points. Luxembourg and Denmark take third
and fourth place with 795 and 794 points, respectively.

In terms of medical outcomes, Canada compares reasonably well with the
best performing healthcare systems and on the generosity scale Canada
collects an average score. With respect to patient rights, waiting times
and availability of pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom
in the rankings.

Estonia prevails in the value-for-money-adjusted Bang-for-the-Buck
index, while placing 11th overall in the ECHCI Index and competing very
well with countries spending vastly more per capita on healthcare. Taken
together – Canada’s poor overall performance in the Index along with a
high expenditure on healthcare services – leads to Canada’s lastplace
ranking in the Bang-for-the-Buck index.

- - -


Nice try, Herring, but, as usual, you are full of ****.

Socialized medicine.
 

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.

I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! :-)

Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

Socialized medicine.
 

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:

Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?
There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.
I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! :-)
Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....


Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

Socialized medicine.
 

On May 31, 9:37*pm, Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:27:05 -0400, BAR wrote:
Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:11:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" *With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut

Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

There is also Medicare but they are going broke taking 14% of every
wage earned in the country and only covering about 12% of the
population.

I would certainly agree, that math doesn't work.

I am a great believer in "cigar box" economics. I've been called
"ignorant," but the concept has never failed me.

Those, "more educated" have explained to me how wrong I am, the
nuances of the post-industrial economy. I still think they are idiots.

If you know me, either way, I can't lose! * :-)

Get the lawyers and bureaucrats out of medicine and throw the bad
doctors out on their asses. Costs will come down. And make it a pay as
you go system. Everyone needs to pull some money out of their pocket and
pay for their medical care. For those who have sustained service related
injuries it is part of their contract with the government to have those
medical issues covered by the government.

You major error, here, is that many, if not most, lawsuits are
frivolous.....



Right you are, Gene.

Speaking of....

The cartoons in this video may be weird but the words are so true.
Some of the claims this guy sings about I've heard. The American
people will sue for just about everything; even if it was there own
fault for the mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO9J...e=channel_page

Socialized medicine.
 

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:48:03 -0400, BAR wrote:

Balanced by caregivers posting record profits by charging $20 per
aspirin, etc.....

If you seriously want to engage in this one, I have documentary
evidence from my father's death where the hospital charged:

1) Fees for days and weeks after my father's death,
2) absurd costs to the tune of top dollar for prescriptions never
taken,.
3) doctor visits, which never happened, some after his death...
4) months of double billing Medicaid.....

I won't go on, but you get the picture....

Someone at the hospital should be in jail.

Agreed but the jails are not big enough. It has become endemic in the
health care system.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..
The main reason why drugs are slow to be approved and why they are so
expensive here compared to other countries is there are lawyers on TV
every day saying "took this drug?, I can get you some money"

Americans pay for the R&D, most other countries pay fair market value.

You've overlooked the highly specialized nature of medicine these
days. I have recent experience with a close family member being in
the hospital for a couple of weeks. Each set of organs has an
advocate, kidneys, heart and lungs, vascular, etc. Each of those is
broken into those that administer medication and those that cure
through surgery.

Surely the care is better and so are outcomes but the cost of team
medicine is unbelievable.

The procedures themselves are also astoundingly expensive. $7K for a
MRI between session, technician and expert. Maybe a total of an hour
by all invested. That's insane. They're prescribed like candy.

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

It's ****ed up and has to change.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:01:51 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:53:02 -0400, John H
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:45:46 -0400, Gene
wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut



Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?

I have had many occasions to get treatment at the VA hospital in Wash
DC. I have no gripes about the treatment I've recieved. The facility
and the promptness of care both improved greatly under the Bush
administration. But, they weren't bad before. Much of the VA griping
comes from liberals who've not used the facility.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I have 8 folks that report to
me..... and 7 are retired military. Most of them are not
complimentary. Maybe we should go to an all pay system... including
ex-military.

Ask them to show you their VA ID card. See if their are any words
written under the picture. Those can make a big difference in their
entitlements under VA.
--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

Socialized medicine.
 

Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!
There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.
A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.


So...what happened to the fingers? Were they sold on eBay?

Socialized medicine.
 

"Zombie of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.



And people wonder why this country is in the mess it is in. Companies
share the blame as do politicians and lawyers. But the biggest blame goes
to the modern consumer and private citizen like this one who try to abuse
the system and get something for nothing. Thankfully there are still some
judges with a bit of common sense.

Eisboch

Socialized medicine.
 

Eisboch wrote:

"Zombie of Woodstock" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.



And people wonder why this country is in the mess it is in. Companies
share the blame as do politicians and lawyers. But the biggest blame
goes to the modern consumer and private citizen like this one who try to
abuse the system and get something for nothing. Thankfully there are
still some judges with a bit of common sense.

Eisboch



In the criminal justice system, as you know, there are steps that have
to be completed before a trial takes place, and among these is a grand
jury proceeding.

Now, unfortunately, many grand juries are little more than sessions that
rubber stamp whatever a prosecutor wishes, but not all are that way.

In some jurisdictions, parties to a civil suit have to go through some
sort of arbitration before a trial can be scheduled.

Socialized medicine.
 

"HK" wrote in message
m...


In the criminal justice system, as you know, there are steps that have to
be completed before a trial takes place, and among these is a grand jury
proceeding.

Now, unfortunately, many grand juries are little more than sessions that
rubber stamp whatever a prosecutor wishes, but not all are that way.

In some jurisdictions, parties to a civil suit have to go through some
sort of arbitration before a trial can be scheduled.


Whatever. I hope the woman and her lawyer in Tom's case were laughed out of
the courtroom, along with a stern admonishment by the judge.

Eisboch

Socialized medicine.
 

"John H" wrote in message
...
Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient's rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H


Well Johnny..we have a major handicap...living next door to the US.
We have to pay our doctors, specialists, nurses etc. well (by Canadian
standards) or they can easily pull up stakes and take their subsidized
educations and knowledge to the US for more money.
I wonder how the pay rates for Canada and some of the European countries
compare.
Also, when you had Reagan and we had Mulroney running our countries...the
big US drug companies were hounding us about our generic drugs.
At the time we only gave them a 7 year period to gouge the public before
generic companies could manufacture similar products.
After our 'conservative' government bowed to presssure and bribes (promises
to produce more brand name drugs here) our lackey gave in and changed the
protected time period to 15 years. This dramatically raised drug costs up
here....at who's benefit?

Socialized medicine.
 

Don White wrote:
"John H" wrote in message
...
Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient's rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H


Well Johnny..we have a major handicap...living next door to the US.
We have to pay our doctors, specialists, nurses etc. well (by Canadian
standards) or they can easily pull up stakes and take their subsidized
educations and knowledge to the US for more money.
I wonder how the pay rates for Canada and some of the European countries
compare.
Also, when you had Reagan and we had Mulroney running our countries...the
big US drug companies were hounding us about our generic drugs.
At the time we only gave them a 7 year period to gouge the public before
generic companies could manufacture similar products.
After our 'conservative' government bowed to presssure and bribes (promises
to produce more brand name drugs here) our lackey gave in and changed the
protected time period to 15 years. This dramatically raised drug costs up
here....at who's benefit?




Please note the bang for the buck mentioned in Herring's post includes
only European countries and Canada, and not the USA, and most of those
European countries have socialized medicine. Over there, though, the
programs have evolved more than Canada's has. Thus, Herring's post is
specious.

Socialized medicine.
 

On May 31, 8:45*pm, Gene wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 20:18:25 -0400, John H
wrote:

Canada is not a great example of same:

" *With respect to patient’s rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut

Socialized medicine may suck.... I have no personal experience. The US
has only ONE limited experiment in socialized medicine. It
administered by the "Department of Veterans Affairs." Anybody have
experience with this? Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and
England?
--

Forté Agent 5.00 Build 1171

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do.
So, throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor.
Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover." * - Unknown

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepagehttp://pamandgene.tranquilrefuge.net/boating/the_boat/my_boat.htm

Is it as bad as they say it is in Canada and England?

No, Herring is just trolling....again. Powered by rumour. Herring
believes everything he hears.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Jun 1, 8:37*am, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:

I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear......
AMAZING!
There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. *Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.
A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. *He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

So...what happened to the fingers? Were they sold on eBay?

Loogy, and justhate had a Barbeque...... Chicken Fingers....

Socialized medicine.
 

Socialized medicine.
 

On Jun 1, 11:58*am, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 1, 8:37 am, HK wrote:
Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:
I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.
Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear......
AMAZING!
There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. *Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.
System needs a top to bottom overhaul.
A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..
That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.
Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.
Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. *He made it though.
About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.
$25,000,000.
Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.
I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.
So...what happened to the fingers? Were they sold on eBay?

Loogy, and justhate had a Barbeque...... Chicken Fingers....

Oh, gawd...I believe that! *:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then you're dumber than anyone here ever imagined, idiot.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Jun 1, 11:17*am, wrote:
On Jun 1, 8:37*am, HK wrote:





Zombie of Woodstock wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:

I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear......
AMAZING!
There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. *Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.
A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. *He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

So...what happened to the fingers? Were they sold on eBay?

Loogy, and justhate had a Barbeque...... Chicken Fingers....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

slammer the Stalker...........

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

Socialized medicine.
 

Richard Casady wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady


So, you think that projecting your particulars works for everyone, eh?

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:04:19 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

What were you doing with cancer and no insurance, schmuck?

What if your kid's leg was half severed or had a burst appendix and
you were in the same situation?

Would you shop around before taking him to the emergency room?

You think the insurance company would cover his pre-existing
condition?

Not a chance.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:33:12 -0400, Zombie of Woodstock
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:59:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 21:26:40 -0700, jps wrote:

On Sun, 31 May 2009 22:56:14 -0400, Gene
wrote:


I agree, but then, there is that indefinite *YOU* to reckon with.
Since my Dad was long since retired and they were trying to
double-triple-fourple dip with Uncle Sam, I told them he would be in
touch.

Amazing how quickly things can get sorted out and a credit appear.....
AMAZING!

There's a lot of talk about administrative costs and profit but rarely
do we hear how much scamming goes on. Not only double billing but
tons of unnecessary procedures, medicines, treatments, etc.

System needs a top to bottom overhaul.

A lot of that is just the lawyer tax. Doctors will not commit to
anything without a lot of backup tests because if they get it wrong
they get sued.
They might get sued anyway..

That is absoutely true and I can personally attest to it.

Back when I was an active volunteer paramedic, we responded to a auto
accident - eight kids in cars were playing chicken at a four way stop
- heading at each other with their lights off. Head on at about 40 or
so - it was pretty nasty.

Anyway, long story short, we got to the scene and were given one car
that had rolled over. Kid had his hand on the window and when the car
rolled, he lost his right hand index and middle finger in addition to
head trauma and internal injuries - hell of a time keeping him alive
long enough to get to a trauma center. I almost lost him on the way to
the helicopter LZ, then went with the chopper to UMASS working on him
the whole way. He made it though.

About eight months later, I get a notice of intent to sue. The kids
mother had filed a complaint with the State because I didn't take the
time to find his fingers - he had just started to play the drums and
had a career to think of and she was suing me for negligence and loss
of potential income.

$25,000,000.

Fortunately, it never got past-pretrial - the judge threw it out and
read the riot act to the attorney and mother and the State refused to
reconsider even though she tried a couple more times.

I have doctors in the family and they can tell you a few stories.

That's a nice anecdote?

Any idea how much these lawsuits actually cost the industry?

I want to know if this is a real percentage or another welfare mom
driving a cadillac scare tactic.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:47:48 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H" wrote in message
.. .
Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient's rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H


Well Johnny..we have a major handicap...

I know. It's a damn shame.
--
John H

"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money." --Margaret Thatcher

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:08:58 -0400, HK wrote:

Richard Casady wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady


So, you think that projecting your particulars works for everyone, eh?

I believe state law required that someone write the policy. My
particulars apply to millions around these parts. Someone has to write
you car insurance, no matter how bad your record. for example.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:30:15 -0700, jps wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:04:19 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

What were you doing with cancer and no insurance, schmuck?

Self insured with over a mil cash more or less gathering dust in a
money market account. I have been saving my money in case I took a
major uninsured hit, or the Dow went to near zero. Anyone can sue for
anything, and juries are sometimes nuts. I have saved most of my
income for decades.I haven't had a new car since 1975. A Volvo wagon
with the last of the pushrod motors

Treatment seems to be successful, and it wasn't financial disaster. I
would feel lucky, except 7 out of 8 don't get it. I am grateful for a
life expectency. They x-rayed my neck to the point where I can only
turn my head about 45 degrees, and I will never be able to have
swallow solid food. I can drink liquids at least.
I have a tube into my stomach for swill. Smoking and drinking is a bad
combination for causing oral cancer. They told me to quit drinking,
but it is ok to pour the beer into the feeding bag.

I was a schmuck for forty years of Camel no filters. I will admit
that.

What if your kid's leg was half severed or had a burst appendix and
you were in the same situation?

I don't pay bills for my wifes adult kids.

Would you shop around before taking him to the emergency room?

You should know which is the best ER in town.

You think the insurance company would cover his pre-existing
condition?

What are you talking about? It's my insurance, not his. Mine covers
existing conditions after six months.

As I write the TV says an Air France plane disappeared, after
reporting some equipment problems, enroute from Rio to Paris.

Not a chance.

Not a bit of relevance.

Casady

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:40:21 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:30:15 -0700, jps wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:04:19 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

What were you doing with cancer and no insurance, schmuck?

Self insured with over a mil cash more or less gathering dust in a
money market account. I have been saving my money in case I took a
major uninsured hit, or the Dow went to near zero. Anyone can sue for
anything, and juries are sometimes nuts. I have saved most of my
income for decades.I haven't had a new car since 1975. A Volvo wagon
with the last of the pushrod motors

Treatment seems to be successful, and it wasn't financial disaster. I
would feel lucky, except 7 out of 8 don't get it. I am grateful for a
life expectency. They x-rayed my neck to the point where I can only
turn my head about 45 degrees, and I will never be able to have
swallow solid food. I can drink liquids at least.
I have a tube into my stomach for swill. Smoking and drinking is a bad
combination for causing oral cancer. They told me to quit drinking,
but it is ok to pour the beer into the feeding bag.

I was a schmuck for forty years of Camel no filters. I will admit
that.

Holy ****. I'm sorry to hear.


What if your kid's leg was half severed or had a burst appendix and
you were in the same situation?

I don't pay bills for my wifes adult kids.

Renting is always cheaper in the end.

Would you shop around before taking him to the emergency room?

You should know which is the best ER in town.

I do. I have friends who work there. Regional trauma center.

You think the insurance company would cover his pre-existing
condition?

What are you talking about? It's my insurance, not his. Mine covers
existing conditions after six months.

You can burn through a ****load of cash in six months. I just watched
a family member burn through a lot of medicaide money in two weeks.

As I write the TV says an Air France plane disappeared, after
reporting some equipment problems, enroute from Rio to Paris.

Not a chance.

Not a bit of relevance.

Casady

Socialized medicine.
 

Eisboch wrote:

"HK" wrote in message
m...


In the criminal justice system, as you know, there are steps that have
to be completed before a trial takes place, and among these is a grand
jury proceeding.

Now, unfortunately, many grand juries are little more than sessions
that rubber stamp whatever a prosecutor wishes, but not all are that way.

In some jurisdictions, parties to a civil suit have to go through some
sort of arbitration before a trial can be scheduled.


Whatever. I hope the woman and her lawyer in Tom's case were laughed
out of the courtroom, along with a stern admonishment by the judge.

Eisboch

This is why we need Tort reform and "loser pays" put into law.

Socialized medicine.
 

Don White wrote:
"John H" wrote in message
...
Canada is not a great example of same:

" With respect to patient's rights, waiting times and availability of
pharmaceuticals Canada places at the absolute bottom in the rankings.

Canada ranks dead last in the "Bang-for-the-Buck" index (Estonia is
first in the value-for-money-adjusted "Bang-for-the-Buck" index). "

http://tinyurl.com/mxq9ut


--
John H


Well Johnny..we have a major handicap...living next door to the US.
We have to pay our doctors, specialists, nurses etc. well (by Canadian
standards) or they can easily pull up stakes and take their subsidized
educations and knowledge to the US for more money.
I wonder how the pay rates for Canada and some of the European countries
compare.
Also, when you had Reagan and we had Mulroney running our countries...the
big US drug companies were hounding us about our generic drugs.
At the time we only gave them a 7 year period to gouge the public before
generic companies could manufacture similar products.
After our 'conservative' government bowed to presssure and bribes (promises
to produce more brand name drugs here) our lackey gave in and changed the
protected time period to 15 years. This dramatically raised drug costs up
here....at who's benefit?



The patient that needs that drug.

You continue to become increasingly dumber. Do you think new drugs just
appear out of thin air, dummy? What do you think it costs to bring a
new drug to market? Don't think too hard, we all know you are impaired.

Socialized medicine.
 

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:20:09 -0700, jps wrote:

You think the insurance company would cover his pre-existing
condition?

What are you talking about? It's my insurance, not his. Mine covers
existing conditions after six months.

You can burn through a ****load of cash in six months. I just watched
a family member burn through a lot of medicaide money in two weeks.

Yes you can. I was covered before it got super expensive. Many people
burn down their life savings. I need a new heart valve and that costs
a lot.

Casady

Socialized medicine.
 

On Jun 1, 6:40*pm, Richard Casady wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:30:15 -0700, jps wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:04:19 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:01:53 -0700, jps wrote:

The poor schmuck who walks into a hospital with a problem and no
insurance will end up without money or a house in no time.

Considering that I got affordable insurance, about average cost, after
they knew I had cancer, you would have to be a schmuck to get zeroed
out financially.

Casady

What were you doing with cancer and no insurance, schmuck?

Self insured with over a mil cash more or less gathering dust in a
money market account. I have been saving my money in case I took a
major uninsured hit, or the Dow went to near zero. Anyone can sue for
anything, and juries are sometimes nuts. I have saved most of my
income for decades.I haven't had a new car since 1975. A Volvo wagon
with the last of the pushrod motors

Treatment seems to be successful, and it wasn't financial disaster. I
would feel lucky, except 7 out of 8 don't get it. I am grateful for a
life expectency. They x-rayed my neck to the point where I can only
turn my head about 45 degrees, and I will never be able to have
swallow solid food. I can drink liquids at least.
I have a tube into my stomach for swill. Smoking and drinking is a bad
combination for causing oral cancer. They told me to quit drinking,
but it is ok to pour the beer into the feeding bag.

Very sorry to hear about all of that, Richard. Good luck in the
future.