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Boat Survey
Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. But, it looks like it will work out. I had lowered the price of the boat significantly in the interest of a sale this spring and the buyer realizes that. We've agreed to split the cost of installing new oil pans on the engines. But, for those with older inboards ... it's worth a check. (my boat is a 1996) The OEM engines typically have painted sheet metal oil pans and the environment they are in (low in the bilges) make 'em prone to rusting out, especially if the bilge collects rain water as it does on my boat. The last thing you want is to have one let go and then have your bilge pump deposit all the oil in the water surrounding your boat. Can you spell "EPA" and "Fine"? Eisboch |
Boat Survey
Eisboch wrote:
Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. But, it looks like it will work out. I had lowered the price of the boat significantly in the interest of a sale this spring and the buyer realizes that. We've agreed to split the cost of installing new oil pans on the engines. But, for those with older inboards ... it's worth a check. (my boat is a 1996) The OEM engines typically have painted sheet metal oil pans and the environment they are in (low in the bilges) make 'em prone to rusting out, especially if the bilge collects rain water as it does on my boat. The last thing you want is to have one let go and then have your bilge pump deposit all the oil in the water surrounding your boat. Can you spell "EPA" and "Fine"? Eisboch Who surveyed your boat, Stevie Wonder? Your share should be 500-1000. See if you can get your surveyor to split the cost with you. |
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Eisboch wrote:
Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. But, it looks like it will work out. I had lowered the price of the boat significantly in the interest of a sale this spring and the buyer realizes that. We've agreed to split the cost of installing new oil pans on the engines. But, for those with older inboards ... it's worth a check. (my boat is a 1996) The OEM engines typically have painted sheet metal oil pans and the environment they are in (low in the bilges) make 'em prone to rusting out, especially if the bilge collects rain water as it does on my boat. The last thing you want is to have one let go and then have your bilge pump deposit all the oil in the water surrounding your boat. Can you spell "EPA" and "Fine"? Eisboch Who surveyed your boat, Stevie Wonder? Your share should be 500-1000. See if you can get your surveyor to split the cost with you. |
Boat Survey
Eisboch wrote:
Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. -- Regards, Dave Brown Brown's Marina Ltd http://brownsmarina.com/ |
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"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 15, 7:11 pm, Dave Brown wrote: Eisboch wrote: Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. -- Regards, Dave Brown Brown's Marina Ltd http://brownsmarina.com/ Dave, I was wondering abou that myself. I've never known of anybody having an oil pan rust though like what Richard is describing. besides, if it was THAT bad, then the bildge would already be filed with oil, I would think. I'm wondering if the gasket[s] or main seals are leaking instead? I boat both salt and fresh. Eisboch's is a sal****er boat. When I pulled the engine to replace it, the pan was close to rusting through. Lots of the head bolts on outside of the valve cover were partly rusted away on the heads. I had scraped the pan of flaking paint and rust at least 2 years before and treated the metal and painted. |
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Tim wrote:
On Apr 15, 7:11 pm, Dave Brown wrote: Eisboch wrote: Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. -- Regards, Dave Brown Brown's Marina Ltd http://brownsmarina.com/ Dave, I was wondering abou that myself. I've never known of anybody having an oil pan rust though like what Richard is describing. besides, if it was THAT bad, then the bildge would already be filed with oil, I would think. I'm wondering if the gasket[s] or main seals are leaking instead? Salt water takes it's toll. This is not uncommon to have a pan rusted out. He's lucky to have caught it before it leaked. The corners of the sump and near the drain plug are usually the problem areas because they are the lowest and wettest parts of the pan. |
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On Apr 15, 10:01*pm, jim78565 wrote:
Tim wrote: On Apr 15, 7:11 pm, Dave Brown wrote: Eisboch wrote: Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. *The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. * I never noticed *(although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) *and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. -- Regards, * * * Dave Brown * * * Brown's Marina Ltd * * *http://brownsmarina.com/ Dave, I was wondering abou that myself. I've never known of anybody having an oil pan rust though like what Richard is describing. besides, if it was THAT bad, then the bildge would already be filed with oil, I would think. I'm wondering if the gasket[s] *or main seals are leaking instead? Salt water takes it's toll. This is not uncommon to have a pan rusted out. He's lucky to have caught it before it leaked. The corners of the sump and near the drain plug are usually the problem areas because they are the lowest and wettest parts of the pan. Thanks guys. I'm not blinded to the fact that it can't happen,but i suppose thats from leading a sheltered life of fresh-water trailer boating..... ?;^ ) |
Boat Survey
"Dave Brown" wrote in message ... Eisboch wrote: Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. Dave, I don't know the answer other than what was reported to me over the telephone. The buyer's surveyor claims that one of the engines appears to have a fiberglass patch on it's oil pan and claims that the other engine pan appears to have a tiny leak in it. Both comments surprised me because, although I never personally inspected them with a mirror or anything, I never had any oil in the bilge or noticed the "patch". As I mentioned, when I bought the boat last May, the surveyor I hired did not notice it either. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, he just didn't notice. Your comments are of interest because in the past I have heard the same thing, meaning the oil pans typically don't rust out normally. I *have* heard that if the pan is damaged, or the paint is scratched badly during an engine hauling event (for whatever reason) that the pan can rust prematurely. I'll find out more in the next couple of days and report back the findings. Eisboch |
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"Dave Brown" wrote in message ... Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. Forgot to mention: Yes, the boat has been used in salt water. I've not noticed any major amount of leakage into the bilge through the rudder or drive shafts however. It does get some fresh water due to heavy rain, but not a gigantic amount. Eisboch |
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"jim78565" wrote in message ... Tim wrote: Dave, I was wondering abou that myself. I've never known of anybody having an oil pan rust though like what Richard is describing. besides, if it was THAT bad, then the bildge would already be filed with oil, I would think. I'm wondering if the gasket[s] or main seals are leaking instead? Salt water takes it's toll. This is not uncommon to have a pan rusted out. He's lucky to have caught it before it leaked. The corners of the sump and near the drain plug are usually the problem areas because they are the lowest and wettest parts of the pan. I've heard the same thing and have been told that you need to be particularly careful not to scratch the paint on the pans with wrenches or when pulling the engine for any repairs. As you know, I've had a bunch of older boats in the past, but this is the first time I've had to deal with this issue. I *do* know that replacement marine oil pans are available in aluminum specifically made to avoid rusting. Remember the old Century with the rotted out engine plug that was ****ing water out the side of the engine? For those people not familiar with this story, it wasn't a "freeze" plug. It was a heavy, threaded plug in the side wall of the raw water cooled (GM) 350 engine that rotted away over time. I noticed it after starting the engine and saw a healthy stream of water coming out of the side of the engine. I've had older cars that got pinhole leaks in the gas tank, but never in the oil pan (that I know of). Eisboch |
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"Tim" wrote in message ... Thanks guys. I'm not blinded to the fact that it can't happen,but i suppose thats from leading a sheltered life of fresh-water trailer boating..... ?;^ ) Fresh water boating and salt water boating are two different animals, that's for sure. Also, boats that stay in the water (at a slip or mooring) for the entire season or year-round, particularly in salt water, lead a rough life compared to a trailered boat that is hauled and kept "dry" most of the time. Eisboch |
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:54:31 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: Remember the old Century with the rotted out engine plug that was ****ing water out the side of the engine? For those people not familiar with this story, it wasn't a "freeze" plug. It was a heavy, threaded plug in the side wall of the raw water cooled (GM) 350 engine that rotted away over time. I noticed it after starting the engine and saw a healthy stream of water coming out of the side of the engine. I also had that happen to the 350 in my old runabout. It was right underneath the exhaust manifold on the port side and a real bear to replace. |
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:54:31 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Remember the old Century with the rotted out engine plug that was ****ing water out the side of the engine? For those people not familiar with this story, it wasn't a "freeze" plug. It was a heavy, threaded plug in the side wall of the raw water cooled (GM) 350 engine that rotted away over time. I noticed it after starting the engine and saw a healthy stream of water coming out of the side of the engine. I also had that happen to the 350 in my old runabout. It was right underneath the exhaust manifold on the port side and a real bear to replace. That's the one. In my case it was temporarily fixed with some Marine Tex to get through the remaining boating season and then the plug was replaced after hauling. The Century's engine access was horrible and the plug was virtually impossible to replace without removing the manifold. Eisboch |
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:54:31 -0400, "Eisboch"
wrote: "jim78565" wrote in message ... Tim wrote: Dave, I was wondering abou that myself. I've never known of anybody having an oil pan rust though like what Richard is describing. besides, if it was THAT bad, then the bildge would already be filed with oil, I would think. I'm wondering if the gasket[s] or main seals are leaking instead? Salt water takes it's toll. This is not uncommon to have a pan rusted out. He's lucky to have caught it before it leaked. The corners of the sump and near the drain plug are usually the problem areas because they are the lowest and wettest parts of the pan. I've heard the same thing and have been told that you need to be particularly careful not to scratch the paint on the pans with wrenches or when pulling the engine for any repairs. As you know, I've had a bunch of older boats in the past, but this is the first time I've had to deal with this issue. I *do* know that replacement marine oil pans are available in aluminum specifically made to avoid rusting. Remember the old Century with the rotted out engine plug that was ****ing water out the side of the engine? For those people not familiar with this story, it wasn't a "freeze" plug. It was a heavy, threaded plug in the side wall of the raw water cooled (GM) 350 engine that rotted away over time. I noticed it after starting the engine and saw a healthy stream of water coming out of the side of the engine. I've had older cars that got pinhole leaks in the gas tank, but never in the oil pan (that I know of). They have made a zillion gas tanks from Terne plate, lead coated steel. Very rust resistant, although not perfect. Casady |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:11:38 -0500, Dave Brown
wrote: Eisboch wrote: Ran into a potential problem with the boat sale. The buyer's surveyor discovered that the oil pans on the engines were in bad shape and need to be replaced. I never noticed (although I never really personally inspected them having owned the boat for less than a year) and the surveyor I had when I bought it missed them completely. Just for my own further education, how did he determine they were not longer fit for service? Has the boat seen salt water? I have only ever had to replace one oil pan in 33 years working on boats (and it was cracked) so this is very interesting to me. |
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wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:59:37 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Thanks guys. I'm not blinded to the fact that it can't happen,but i suppose thats from leading a sheltered life of fresh-water trailer boating..... Can I get an OooRah for outboards over inboards in salt water ? ;-) I never liked that much hardware in a place I couldn't get to. I agree, but outboards aren't really practical on a 40 foot cruiser. Eisboch |
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wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:56:31 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Can I get an OooRah for outboards over inboards in salt water ? ;-) I never liked that much hardware in a place I couldn't get to. I agree, but outboards aren't really practical on a 40 foot cruiser. Eisboch I keep forgetting you guys are not really "boaters" you are "yachtsmen" ;-) On the other hand when I see these guys with three 275s on the back, I wonder why you couldn't have outboards. $$$$$$$$ Three 275hp outboards are mighty expensive, compared to two 454ci inboards. Plus, handling becomes a significant issue. Outboards would radically change the pivot point (or whatever you call it) on a larger boat, I would think. I've watched boats as large as a 36' with outboards (four, big Mercs) maneuver into a slip. It appears much easier to do with inboards where you have two props located further forward. I don't know for a fact, because I've never tried it, but it appears to be more difficult with outboards from watching. BTW, a forty footer is hardly a yacht. I used to think the Navigator we had was a big boat at 52'8" LOA until I took it to Florida. Down there it was a peanut. Eisboch |
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wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:00:54 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: BTW, a forty footer is hardly a yacht. I used to think the Navigator we had was a big boat at 52'8" LOA until I took it to Florida. Down there it was a peanut. Yup, when you take a little cruise down the New River in Ftc Lauderdale you get a hint how the rich people live and that still isn't Palm Beach. I am still chugging around in "The Butt Ugly" and pretty happy with my 1 GPH even if gas is half price now. As Wayne can tell you, I am not getting a 40 footer down my canal. I often think now that we should have kept the Grand Banks. It was slow, but relaxing. The only time I felt any anxiousness was transiting the Cape Cod Canal at the wrong time (meaning against a 5-6 kt current). The speed drop off wasn't a big issue, but the way the current swirls through certain sections it makes the bow want to fall off one way or the other. I suspect if it happened it could be tough trying to come around again. My other fear was going through *with* the current and having them lower the railroad bridge you go under as you approached it. If too close, the procedure would be to turn around (against the current) and throttle up hoping to keep you in place and not up against the bridge. At only 120hp and a single screw, it didn't have much power. Eisboch |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Looks to me like the outboard engines (the ones closest to the gunnels) are mounted 10-12" higher than the four engines in the center. Not likely. I've seen quad setups like that. The two center engines are mounted lower than the two outboard engines. There's a 36' Yellowfin CC down at the marina with quad Mercs on it set up as described. Eisboch Yes, of course, typically 25" and 30" engines. That's 5". |
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Eisboch wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message ... I've seen quad setups like that. The two center engines are mounted lower than the two outboard engines. There's a 36' Yellowfin CC down at the marina with quad Mercs on it set up as described. Eisboch In fact, the picture on the main (index) page of the YellowFin website shows a boat with this configuration. In the picture the two center engines don't look *that* much lower than the outboard engines, but the mounting on the one down at our marina is much more pronounced. http://www.yellowfinyachts.com/ Eisboch Those look like 25" and 30" lower units to me, not 25" and 35". The eight engine boat has its outboard engines mounted at least 10" higher than the center engines. |
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Eisboch wrote:
wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:56:31 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote: Can I get an OooRah for outboards over inboards in salt water ? ;-) I never liked that much hardware in a place I couldn't get to. I agree, but outboards aren't really practical on a 40 foot cruiser. Eisboch I keep forgetting you guys are not really "boaters" you are "yachtsmen" ;-) On the other hand when I see these guys with three 275s on the back, I wonder why you couldn't have outboards. $$$$$$$$ Three 275hp outboards are mighty expensive, compared to two 454ci inboards. Plus, handling becomes a significant issue. Outboards would radically change the pivot point (or whatever you call it) on a larger boat, I would think. I've watched boats as large as a 36' with outboards (four, big Mercs) maneuver into a slip. It appears much easier to do with inboards where you have two props located further forward. I don't know for a fact, because I've never tried it, but it appears to be more difficult with outboards from watching. BTW, a forty footer is hardly ahttp://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 yacht. I used to think the Navigator we had was a big boat at 52'8" LOA until I took it to Florida. Down there it was a peanut. Eisboch Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 |
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"Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch |
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On Apr 16, 6:34*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. |
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"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch |
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Eisboch wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Looks to me like the outboard engines (the ones closest to the gunnels) are mounted 10-12" higher than the four engines in the center. Not likely. |
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"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Looks to me like the outboard engines (the ones closest to the gunnels) are mounted 10-12" higher than the four engines in the center. Not likely. I've seen quad setups like that. The two center engines are mounted lower than the two outboard engines. There's a 36' Yellowfin CC down at the marina with quad Mercs on it set up as described. Eisboch |
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"Eisboch" wrote in message ... I've seen quad setups like that. The two center engines are mounted lower than the two outboard engines. There's a 36' Yellowfin CC down at the marina with quad Mercs on it set up as described. Eisboch In fact, the picture on the main (index) page of the YellowFin website shows a boat with this configuration. In the picture the two center engines don't look *that* much lower than the outboard engines, but the mounting on the one down at our marina is much more pronounced. http://www.yellowfinyachts.com/ Eisboch |
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On Apr 16, 7:35*pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. * I'll buy the four center engines. * I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Here Rich. http://www.snopes.com/photos/boats/drugrunner.asp |
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"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 7:35 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Here Rich. http://www.snopes.com/photos/boats/drugrunner.asp Holy crap! Eisboch |
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:50:39 -0400, wrote:
As Wayne can tell you, I am not getting a 40 footer down my canal. Maybe with a running start. :-) |
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On Apr 16, 5:07*pm, HK wrote:
Yes, of course, typically 25" and 30" engines. That's 5".- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, did you learn to subtract like that in Yale? |
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Eisboch wrote:
"Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch I can't imagine how they would install the steering for all of those. Maybe only the outside motors turn??? |
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Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message m... Eisboch wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... On Apr 16, 6:34 pm, "Eisboch" wrote: "Jim22208" wrote in message ... Horsepower limited by width of transom. Example http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24euqu9&s=5 If that's for real, it's insane. I have to check that out closely for PhotoShop evidence. Eisboch It's real, Richard. There was discussion on here some time ago about it. ------------------------------------------ I don't know. I'll buy the four center engines. I don't see any obvious umbilical cables running to the four outboard engines. Eisboch Looks to me like the outboard engines (the ones closest to the gunnels) are mounted 10-12" higher than the four engines in the center. Not likely. I've seen quad setups like that. The two center engines are mounted lower than the two outboard engines. There's a 36' Yellowfin CC down at the marina with quad Mercs on it set up as described. Eisboch I've seen that, too. It's common on quads. Don't challenge WAFA. He's an expert...on everything. |
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