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Jacklines for power boats
In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use
jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. |
Jacklines for power boats
"Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote:
"Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. |
Jacklines for power boats
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :) |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 3, 10:44 pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :) On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on. A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the time. HK, what do you think of the jackline idea?. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:57:02 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote: On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on. A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the time. Used to find thin "disposable" hooded ponchos pretty cheap. Better than a garbage bag. --Vic |
Jacklines for power boats
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 10:44 pm, HK wrote: Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :) On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on. A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the time. HK, what do you think of the jackline idea?. I've been using what you call "jacklines" for years. Maybe 50 years. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 3, 11:07 pm, HK wrote:
Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 10:44 pm, HK wrote: Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :) On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on. A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the time. HK, what do you think of the jackline idea?. I've been using what you call "jacklines" for years. Maybe 50 years. Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:08:15 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. Once a boat like that is full of water and in big seas, the chances of successfully righting it are just about zero. It would take either a crane or divers with air bags to have any chance of success. |
Jacklines for power boats
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:07 pm, HK wrote: Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 10:44 pm, HK wrote: Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 3, 9:24 pm, "Don White" wrote: "Frogwatch" wrote in message ... In bad weather and sometimes just to simply be safe sailors use jacklines. These lines run from the bow down either side of the mast to a cleat on the stern and he clips himself into this line whenever he leaves the cockpit. Maybe powerboats need jacklines in case the boat turns over. The boater would not clip himself to said lines but would stand on them when he overturns to mostly get himself up onto the hull. Ought to be easy to rig when weather gets bad. What y'all think of this? Another easy piece of survival gear might be a big trash bag in your pocket. Once you turn over and are wet, being in the water makes you lose heat far colder than being in the cold air simply due to thermal conduction in the water vs air. You feel colder in the air but you lose heat faster in the water. So, once you hoist yourself onto your "Jacklines", pull out your trashbag, poke arms and head holes and you have something to trap body heat and protect yourself from wind. Yes, this really does work, it once saved my life when trapped in a cave at the bottom of a waterfall for 6 hours. That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Well, it works. I'll bet you use recycled trash bags... :) On a caving trip another time, it was drizzling cold rain and I forgot my rain coat so I pulled the trash bag outa my helmet and put it on. A friend took a pic of me standing there wearing a trash bag with a cup of coffee in hand looking ridiculous. My kids look at the pic now and nearly die laughing but I still think it made perfect sense at the time. HK, what do you think of the jackline idea?. I've been using what you call "jacklines" for years. Maybe 50 years. Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? 1. No. Not in a 21' boat. 2. No. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. Some of "any" boats are self righting. They don't stay capsized. |
Jacklines for power boats
Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage? |
Jacklines for power boats
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:47:20 -0500, gfretwell wrote:
The trick would be to not get hit once it passed the tipping point. I still doubt they could have bailed it out but it would have been easier to stay with if they could get in it. But could they have gotten in it? Maybe I'm out of date, but I have seen a couple of "positive flotation" boats filled with water (sunk), and the only think above water was the bow, with the motor 20' below the surface. I saw some pictures of this boat upside down, and it did look relatively level. Perhaps, they are using better flotation these days. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote:
That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 06:37:16 -0500, HK wrote:
I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage? Hanging on ropes over the hull tied to the opposite gunnel, with feet braced against the bottom. Get it rocking until you can pull it over. Probably impossible with this type boat, but sailboaters do it. Of course they have a centerboard to stand on, but also a mast working against them. I googled a bit about it, and the best I could find was a guy who had singlehandedly righted his 13' Boston Whaler when it turned turtle. No mention of what motor was hanging on it. Coast Guard has a procedure with a bridle tied to the off gunnel and then pull under power. Boat "naturally" rights. What made me think about it was the amount of boat shown above water in the Coast Guard video. Looked like maybe 10% of the boat. For that boat maybe 400 lbs. So it might seem you only need that much force to right, since the boat was almost neutrally buoyant. On reflection though, as the opposite side rises from the water and sheds it, it will increase the weight that has to be overcome. Like I said elsewhere, it was just a thought. Mostly because there were 4 exceptionally strong and heavy guys. --Vic |
Jacklines for power boats
thunder wrote:
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote: That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way. It's all your fault. |
Jacklines for power boats
Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 06:37:16 -0500, HK wrote: I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage? Hanging on ropes over the hull tied to the opposite gunnel, with feet braced against the bottom. Get it rocking until you can pull it over. Probably impossible with this type boat, but sailboaters do it. Of course they have a centerboard to stand on, but also a mast working against them. I googled a bit about it, and the best I could find was a guy who had singlehandedly righted his 13' Boston Whaler when it turned turtle. No mention of what motor was hanging on it. Coast Guard has a procedure with a bridle tied to the off gunnel and then pull under power. Boat "naturally" rights. What made me think about it was the amount of boat shown above water in the Coast Guard video. Looked like maybe 10% of the boat. For that boat maybe 400 lbs. So it might seem you only need that much force to right, since the boat was almost neutrally buoyant. On reflection though, as the opposite side rises from the water and sheds it, it will increase the weight that has to be overcome. Like I said elsewhere, it was just a thought. Mostly because there were 4 exceptionally strong and heavy guys. --Vic And they were in the water amidst 14' waves. In the good old days in the 1950s, we used to flip a buddy's 14' Amesbury dory after removing the motor and gear to wash out the schmutz after a day of fishing for stripers and porgies. We could easily flip it, fill it with water and then turn it over and empty it. But this was in LI Sound, not in the ocean, in warm water, sans 14-foot waves. |
Jacklines for power boats
"thunder" wrote in message t... On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote: That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way. I was an assistant cub master when my two boys worked their way through the program. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 4, 6:37*am, HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? *Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. * There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. * Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. * In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. * The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. *They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. *No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. * All Monday morning quarterbacking now. *What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 4, 10:13 am, wrote:
On Mar 4, 6:37 am, HK wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. My 20' Tolman weighs roughly 1200 lbs, righting her might be possible in calm water. Stand on lines attached from the bow to middle to stern cleat to sink one side more. Run a line over the hull to the middle cleat and have somebody hold onto that standing against the hull leaning backwards and I bet she'd flip over. However, I agree, righting is a poor survival strategy because of the poor likelyhood of doing it and keeping her upright until she is bailed. So, what we need are better survival strategies assuming she stays bottom up. I think the jackline idea so they can at least get partly out of the water along with the trash bag idea would help a lot. What amazes me is that it seemed that none of the jackets had strobes. A strobe for a jacket costs maybe $12.00,, cheap compared to anything else. |
Jacklines for power boats
Frogwatch wrote:
On Mar 4, 10:13 am, wrote: On Mar 4, 6:37 am, HK wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. My 20' Tolman weighs roughly 1200 lbs, righting her might be possible in calm water. Stand on lines attached from the bow to middle to stern cleat to sink one side more. Run a line over the hull to the middle cleat and have somebody hold onto that standing against the hull leaning backwards and I bet she'd flip over. However, I agree, righting is a poor survival strategy because of the poor likelyhood of doing it and keeping her upright until she is bailed. So, what we need are better survival strategies assuming she stays bottom up. I think the jackline idea so they can at least get partly out of the water along with the trash bag idea would help a lot. What amazes me is that it seemed that none of the jackets had strobes. A strobe for a jacket costs maybe $12.00,, cheap compared to anything else. I think it would be fun to dump Loogy in the water with a heavy 21' center console boat and engine and gear, turned turtle, and a rope, and in deep water with significant waves. It would be a worthy demonstration of Loogy's boating abilities and his understanding of vector mechanics. |
Jacklines for power boats
"HK" wrote in message ... Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 4, 10:13 am, wrote: On Mar 4, 6:37 am, HK wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. My 20' Tolman weighs roughly 1200 lbs, righting her might be possible in calm water. Stand on lines attached from the bow to middle to stern cleat to sink one side more. Run a line over the hull to the middle cleat and have somebody hold onto that standing against the hull leaning backwards and I bet she'd flip over. However, I agree, righting is a poor survival strategy because of the poor likelyhood of doing it and keeping her upright until she is bailed. So, what we need are better survival strategies assuming she stays bottom up. I think the jackline idea so they can at least get partly out of the water along with the trash bag idea would help a lot. What amazes me is that it seemed that none of the jackets had strobes. A strobe for a jacket costs maybe $12.00,, cheap compared to anything else. I think it would be fun to dump Loogy in the water with a heavy 21' center console boat and engine and gear, turned turtle, and a rope, and in deep water with significant waves. It would be a worthy demonstration of Loogy's boating abilities and his understanding of vector mechanics. He'd simply katate chop the boat up into managable bits and then re-assemble after righting each individually. |
Jacklines for power boats
On Mar 4, 12:25 pm, "Don White" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message ... Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 4, 10:13 am, wrote: On Mar 4, 6:37 am, HK wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. My 20' Tolman weighs roughly 1200 lbs, righting her might be possible in calm water. Stand on lines attached from the bow to middle to stern cleat to sink one side more. Run a line over the hull to the middle cleat and have somebody hold onto that standing against the hull leaning backwards and I bet she'd flip over. However, I agree, righting is a poor survival strategy because of the poor likelyhood of doing it and keeping her upright until she is bailed. So, what we need are better survival strategies assuming she stays bottom up. I think the jackline idea so they can at least get partly out of the water along with the trash bag idea would help a lot. What amazes me is that it seemed that none of the jackets had strobes. A strobe for a jacket costs maybe $12.00,, cheap compared to anything else. I think it would be fun to dump Loogy in the water with a heavy 21' center console boat and engine and gear, turned turtle, and a rope, and in deep water with significant waves. It would be a worthy demonstration of Loogy's boating abilities and his understanding of vector mechanics. He'd simply katate chop the boat up into managable bits and then re-assemble after righting each individually. As someone here pointed out, in a situation like this, you either cannot think or do not have time to do so. This means you have to seriously consider the possibility before it happens and wear your jacket which should have a strobe and going offshore consider that you may overturn. Iadmit that over the past couple years I have loaned my family jackets out till now only two have strobes. I also need to fasten batteries down so they cannot fall out if she goes over and rig the jacklines to be ready to use. |
Jacklines for power boats
Don White wrote:
"thunder" wrote in message t... On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 22:24:34 -0400, Don White wrote: That garbage bag 'raincoat' is an old cub scout trick. believe it was in the manuals. Geeze, I must be old. When I was a cub scout you couldn't even buy a plastic garbage bag. They are a Canadian invention by the way. I was an assistant cub master when my two boys worked their way through the program. Didn't help much, 'eh? |
Jacklines for power boats
Don White wrote:
"HK" wrote in message ... Frogwatch wrote: On Mar 4, 10:13 am, wrote: On Mar 4, 6:37 am, HK wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:46:42 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:18:50 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch wrote: Any reasonable thoughts on strategies for such conditions to avoid turning over? Any thoughts on design of a boat to minimize such? Naval architects have theorized, confirmed by testing, that *any* boat can be capsized by a wave of the right size and shape. There are screening formulas that you can search for, but as an approximation, a steep breaking wave with a height of slightly more than half a boat's maximum width (beam), can cause a capsize. Large Bertram sportfishing boats have been capsized, 120 ft Alaskan fishing boats have been capsized, heavily ballasted keel boats have been capsized, and many, many others. In other words no boat can be considered totally safe in extreme conditions, and small boats become unsafe very quickly. The coast guard has rescue boats that are designed to survive capsize by virtue of rugged water tight design, heavy ballasting, and carefully designed mechanical systems. They can survive capsize but can not totally prevent it. There was actually the possibility of righting that Everglades if they had been prepared for that. No reason they should be, but with 4 strong heavy guys and the right technique and gear it was a possibility. Then they'd face the issue of bailing without rolling it again in heavy seas. I read once of a guy who got pretty good at righting his bigger racing multi-hull with a little powerboat assistance. All Monday morning quarterbacking now. What a shame they couldn't all stay with that boat. --Vic I don't see how it would be possible. A 21' boat like that upside weighs more than the strength of four guys NOT standing on solid ground to turn it over. How could you get leverage?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Wow, for someone who claimed to have a degree in Mechanical Engineering, you sure don't understand vector mechanics very well. My 20' Tolman weighs roughly 1200 lbs, righting her might be possible in calm water. Stand on lines attached from the bow to middle to stern cleat to sink one side more. Run a line over the hull to the middle cleat and have somebody hold onto that standing against the hull leaning backwards and I bet she'd flip over. However, I agree, righting is a poor survival strategy because of the poor likelyhood of doing it and keeping her upright until she is bailed. So, what we need are better survival strategies assuming she stays bottom up. I think the jackline idea so they can at least get partly out of the water along with the trash bag idea would help a lot. What amazes me is that it seemed that none of the jackets had strobes. A strobe for a jacket costs maybe $12.00,, cheap compared to anything else. I think it would be fun to dump Loogy in the water with a heavy 21' center console boat and engine and gear, turned turtle, and a rope, and in deep water with significant waves. It would be a worthy demonstration of Loogy's boating abilities and his understanding of vector mechanics. He'd simply katate chop the boat up into managable bits and then re-assemble after righting each individually. You are dumber than ever, lemming. |
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