On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:16:04 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:


We were at Everglades Park ranger station at Flamingo (southern tip) a
few years ago and they were telling us that there was a large sportfish
stuck somewhere in Florida Bay that had been there for months. The park
service would not allow it to be salvaged unless there was a guarantee
of no sea grass damage and no one wanted to take the risk.

Sometimes the park service comes across as Nazis. It's not like leaving
that boat there isn't going to cause any damage. The early settlers of
Flamingo must have been a hardy lot. I can't imagine living there before
the invention of Deet. ;-)

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:56:20 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:20:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Wayne boats in the keys, and he could shed some light on it.
I'd bet that if was grounded he would get kedge off or get towed off
instead of tearing up the bed with his props.

If you run aground in the Keys you really do not want to call for help
if you can possibly avoid it. It will invite a lot of unwanted and
expensive attention.

Well, the guy who powered off got $240k worth of attention.
And he was there for 2 days trying to get off, so it's no secret the
park service would be looking at the damage,
Doesn't sound fiscally responsible. Maybe he's a mortgage broker.
But I was hoping you would shed some light on what you would do if you
were grounded.
For instance if you couldn't back off, and it was near high tide,
would you try to kedge off?
I'm totally inexperienced with these grass fields.

--Vic

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:26:22 -0600, thunder
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:16:04 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:


We were at Everglades Park ranger station at Flamingo (southern tip) a
few years ago and they were telling us that there was a large sportfish
stuck somewhere in Florida Bay that had been there for months. The park
service would not allow it to be salvaged unless there was a guarantee
of no sea grass damage and no one wanted to take the risk.

Sometimes the park service comes across as Nazis. It's not like leaving
that boat there isn't going to cause any damage. The early settlers of
Flamingo must have been a hardy lot. I can't imagine living there before
the invention of Deet. ;-)

If the bugs don't get you the crocs will. We only go in the winter
months. There are some beautiful wilderness areas going north from
there.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:58:27 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

For instance if you couldn't back off, and it was near high tide,
would you try to kedge off?

It's difficult enough to kedge off a 5,000 lb boat, almost impossible
with 70,000 lbs. We try to avoid marginal water depths at high tide,
it being much more preferable to go exploring on half tide and rising.
If you are going slow and nudge the bottom it is usually easy to back
off. Otherwise the best strategy is to try and turn the boat towards
deep water and power it off. A dinghy with a large outboard can be
used as a mini tug boat to turn the boat in some cases. I know one
guy who is a full time cruiser on a boat with an 8 ft draft. He has
a 35 horse on his dinghy just for that purpose. It can be tempting to
try and power through a shallow spot but that can lead to big trouble
if it doesn't work out.

On Feb 24, 1:38*pm, HK wrote:
Boat dealer sued over damage to sea grass

By Todd Ruger
Sarasota Herald Tribune

Published: Monday, February 23, 2009 at 1:00 a.m.
Last Modified: Sunday, February 22, 2009 at 11:05 p.m.

MANATEE COUNTY - A 72-foot yacht from Marlow Marine Sales in Palmetto
departed for a Miami boat show in 2006, but strayed from a deep channel
in Everglades National Park and ran aground on Arsenic Bank.
Related Links:

* * ** Federal lawsuit over seagrass damage in Keys map | Graphics

After several days of trying to float the "Rebel Yell" off the sandbar,
crew members powered the yacht over it, plowing a channel through the
shoal and tearing up sea grass in the sensitive preservation area,
government officials say.

The National Park Service filed a federal lawsuit against Marlow Marine
this month, saying the cost of the damage totals $240,000 -- and
counting -- as the service works to repair the area and monitor its
progress.

The lawsuit is the second filed in Florida's federal courts in the past
year seeking hefty damages against boat owners accused of tearing up sea
grass. In the other case, the government is seeking $600,000 in damages
from a boat owner who ran aground near Key West in 2003.

Sea grass acts as nurseries and feeding grounds for fish, shrimp, stone
crab, lobster and a variety of other aquatic life, including endangered
species like sea turtles and manatees. Both of the federal lawsuits were
filed over damage done to national preserves.

The owner of the "Rebel Yell," boat dealer David Marlow, is contesting
the $240,000 in damages. In court paperwork, he argues that the yacht's
crew was acting with care when it ran aground, and navigational aids in
the waterway were deficient and negligently maintained.

Shallow waters and sandbars are the main features of Florida Bay, the
shallow lagoon at the southern tip of the Florida Peninsula. The number
of boaters using the bay has more than doubled over the past 20 years,
and at some points, the average low tide can be just 1 foot deep.

The government's lawsuit states that repairing the damage from the Rebel
Yell meant replanting two types of sea grass in a 2,270 square foot
area, and required about a tractor-trailer full of sediment to refill
and stabilize the hole the propeller left in the sandbar.

Several attempts were made to refloat the yacht before the crew used its
engine to power off of the shoal, according to the Department of Justice
lawsuit.

The Justice Department declined to comment about how damages were
calculated or how many of these claims it pursues each year.

Similar propeller scarring of sea grass beds is widespread and
increasing in Florida Bay, according to a study from the National Park
Service released last month.

The densest scarring occurred in shallow areas, near navigational
channels, and around areas most heavily used by boaters, the study found.

I'm glad we have none of that ( Sea Grass) up here.... Now, if we
could only catch and fine the Lake Freighter dorks dumping their dam
sea ballast; we'd be fine.
All we got from that is Gobies, Zebra Mussels, and Rusty Crawfish.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:27:40 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

We try to avoid marginal water depths at high tide,
it being much more preferable to go exploring on half tide and rising.

How do you "localize" tides when cruising?
I use local tide tables sometimes when fishing in Florida, and find
them reliable for that spot, but considerably off a few miles away.
Of course that's normally in estuary waters.
Is open water in the Keys consistent with one tide table?

--Vic

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:24:10 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Is open water in the Keys consistent with one tide table?

No, there are many different tide stations in the Keys. Most modern
chart plotters have that all built in but you could still do it the
old fashioned way with tide tables, station list, offsets, etc.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:24:10 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

How do you "localize" tides when cruising?

Read the mangroves and barnacles on poles to get current stage and
analyse flow to decide trend.
The tides are really strange back in the mangroves when wind and water
flowing in from upland will make a foot of difference and the
astronomical prediction is only a guideline.

That's what I do when fishing a canal back a couple miles from
Charlotte Harbor. The tide table for the harbor can be off at least
an hour from there.
I was thinking about open water in the Keys and Florida bay.
As Wayne said a rising/high tide can be useful to keep you off grass
beds/sandbars.
Didn't know that chart plotters had a local tide reading.
Probably want a forward looking sounder too, if there is such a thing.
And a go-slow attitude where appropriate.

--Vic

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:09:59 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Probably want a forward looking sounder too, if there is such a thing.

Forward looking sounders exist but mostly for big boats, and the
reviews are mixed even there.

And a go-slow attitude where appropriate.

That's the real answer. When you go agound at speed you can end up
high and dry.

For an inexpensive chartplotter with tide information, check out a
used Garmin 182 or 182C on EBAY. I have a 182 at the lower helm that
came with the boat and it's a decent unit. One of my neighbors bought
a 182C (color) and he likes it. For a small boat try to get one
with the built in antenna.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:30:16 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:09:59 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Probably want a forward looking sounder too, if there is such a thing.

Forward looking sounders exist but mostly for big boats, and the
reviews are mixed even there.

And a go-slow attitude where appropriate.

That's the real answer. When you go agound at speed you can end up
high and dry.

For an inexpensive chartplotter with tide information, check out a
used Garmin 182 or 182C on EBAY. I have a 182 at the lower helm that
came with the boat and it's a decent unit. One of my neighbors bought
a 182C (color) and he likes it. For a small boat try to get one
with the built in antenna.

Thanks for that advice.
Used units are pretty high on ebay, but new low-end models aren't too
bad retail on the net.
Used electronics scares me.
Probably get a new unit when I get my boat.

--Vic