GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:17:33 -0500, BAR wrote:

No need to rip or beg from taxpayers
like beggars and thieves

No. Rip off the shareholders, especially the widows and orphans.

Casady

I am thinking about time to exit the US market. Any thoughts on good long
term places to be these days? I was thinking South America.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Richard Casady wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:17:33 -0500, BAR wrote:

No need to rip or beg from taxpayers
like beggars and thieves

No. Rip off the shareholders, especially the widows and orphans.

Casady

The share holders bought into the risk. We didn't

For GM, yes. I agree. For bank stock holders I agree. So what if any or
all of them go bankrupt? They are in fact bankrupt!

If the government is serious about getting the economy going they need only
do just 3 things.

1) Ignore bail out whiners. Simply turn them away. No more government
money for banks, GM or anyone else. Only the insured bank accounts and that
is it. People need to look after themselves and read the Three Pigs. Save
for a rainy day. Become more self sufficient and no look to pick the
pockets of others for a living.

2) Whack taxes leaving more in the middle class working persons pocket. The
tax reduction is targets straight to the middle class taxpayers. This
infusion of hard currency is needed so they can pay mortgages and buy stuff
and real long term stimulus. No $300 quick fix here girls and boys.

3) Whack the spending in government and don't print or borrow more money.
Government has to downsize to fit. Start paying down debt not with currency
credit (print money) but with real currency. Yes, this probably means 1/2
the size it is now. 20 years of debt and print now demand payment.

People will have to start paying their debts or this will go further down
the hole than 1929. And I figure if government does not put it's credit
card away long before Christmas, 1929 will look like good times.

By the time this is over being a debtor not paying your bills will revert to
the old ways. Servitude until it is paid.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
...

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company. Proceeds
will be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. The amount is determined by
their compensation. They must own at least 20% of their annual
compensation in common shares of GM. If you are new, you must buy 5% of
your anticipate income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more. This also applies to board members. Board members and executive
not owning at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct
the issue in 20 days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you already
have them. You may own them any way you wish, but must control the
percentage of shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale. If
you are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. Shares
will be accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. You are
not allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested for
3 years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. The cash
will be used to finance the company. No need to rip or beg from
taxpayers like beggars and thieves. Plus, you get to own the company and
vote for your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!
=======================

How about all executive bonuses being only in the form of ten year
deferred stock? This would make them plan 10 years ahead instead of just
as far as their quarterly or yearly bonus. If the company goes bankrupt
before the ten years, then they lose.
Just as pure democracy can have its drawbacks, pure capitalism can too.
-lm





========

The whole bonus system for Corporations indeed Crown Corporations needs to
be abolished, period.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

In message beCUk.1513$o15.959@edtnps83 "Chom Noamsky"
was claimed to have wrote:

How much longer is socialism going to have to support the capitalists and
"free" markets?

Capitalism handles this situation nicely, when a company gets too
inefficient it gets replaced either by more efficient competition and it
modifies it's own behaviour or implodes under it's own weight.

The bail-outs are the problem because they unfairly allow an inefficient
company to continue to operate.

Socialism can be made to work, the problem is controlling greed.
Capitalism can be made to work, the problem is avoiding socialism.

People get hurt in both systems, the trick is to find the middle ground
to avoid too many people getting hurt at once. In this respect certain
things in a capitalist society need to be regulated, banking, insurance,
infrastructure, education, courts, safety and defense (both national
defense and police), and probably a few others.

The type of regulation can vary, for things like health, a crown
corporation is likely to be effective. Private hospitals can't get away
with charging $7,000/day if a crown hospital charges $100/day and you
can bet that private insurance will pay a maximum of crown payouts. You
can solve the problem of needing qualified doctors (and other medical
staff) by having the gov't fund the student loans and then letting
doctors work off their loan in crown hospitals and faculties while
paying them a reasonable wage at the same time.

The only case where you really need to nationalize is infrastructure,
police, courts, and defense. Capitalism isn't capable of managing
natural monopolies, so you generally need to nationalize those. You
need some degree of safety, and you really don't want a private police
or court system as they simply have too much power.

The problem today is that for whatever reason we're not willing to let
capitalism prune the massively inefficient wasteful companies and
instead feel the need to maintain them in their inefficient state.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

In message AJDUk.1538$o15.781@edtnps83 "Chom Noamsky"
was claimed to have wrote:

That's fine if the financial involvement is voluntary. Mandatory investment
by workers is essentially socializing ownership - the same principles as
Marxism.

Is a bail-out not equally socialist?

100% employee-owned businesses generally do well. That is because as
owners, if they want to exploit and mismanage the company, they are only
exploiting and mismanaging themselves.

People still want to exploit and mismanage the company to their own
benefit. What going employee-owned does is put into action the best
feature of capitalism, self-interest.

Not every employee can exploit the company at the same time, there
simply isn't enough company to go around and if you try everyone loses.

Rather then just exploiting "the company" that everyone hates, you're
exploiting your coworkers directly, which means each and every coworker
has an incentive to say "Is 'x' good for the company?"

There is a direct realtionship for
financial reward, such as performing well, rather than getting rewarded
whether the company is failing or succeeding (the norm for today's
executives).

Yeah, this one needs to be fixed in general. Executives pay should be
solely driven by the profit a company generates, just like that of the
owners. Forcing executives to be owners helps.

However, even if employees flocked together to buy some of GM, as a class
they would still be in a minority position. Why would anyone allow a
minority shareholder to call the shots? It just doesn't work that way.

Even if they're ultimately a minority, if the union as a class becomes
the single largest shareholder then they have a ton of voting power.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:45:19 -0800, "sdgreen"
wrote:


"Len McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...
Here is a solution for GM that will work.

Each and every employee of GM is to buy stock in the company. Proceeds
will be used to fund GM financial needs.

Employees must own shares to work at GM. The amount is determined by
their compensation. They must own at least 20% of their annual
compensation in common shares of GM. If you are new, you must buy 5%
of
your anticipate income immediately or you cannot be hired.

Managers need to own at least 25% minimum.

Executives must own the equivalent of last years total compensation or
more. This also applies to board members. Board members and executive
not owning at least 50% today are to be discharged unless they correct
the issue in 20 days or less.

Shares already owned count so you don't have to buy more if you already
have them. You may own them any way you wish, but must control the
percentage of shares required.

If you don't have them then 15% of your wage/salary goes towards share
purchases until topped up to the minimum for your job and pay scale.
If
you are an executive or manager, that amount increases to 25%. Shares
will be accumulated at the months lowest daily average minus 5%. You
are
not allowed to sell shares below your percentage or those not vested
for
3 years.

Shares will be initially issued by GM, later if solvent they will be
purchased off the market but for now new issues to raise cash. The
cash
will be used to finance the company. No need to rip or beg from
taxpayers like beggars and thieves. Plus, you get to own the company
and
vote for your choice of the CEO!

Solves a lot of problems for everyone.

CAW/UAW, put your money where your mouth is!
=======================

How about all executive bonuses being only in the form of ten year
deferred stock? This would make them plan 10 years ahead instead of just
as far as their quarterly or yearly bonus. If the company goes bankrupt
before the ten years, then they lose.
Just as pure democracy can have its drawbacks, pure capitalism can too.
-lm





========

The whole bonus system for Corporations indeed Crown Corporations needs to
be abolished, period.


It's not just Crown Corporations, civil servants who do not work for
C.C. also get bonuses as well as fat severance pay.
=================================

My reference was to the private sector but I certainly agree with a no bonus
policy for civil or crown.
-lm

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

"DevilsPGD" wrote in message
...
In message beCUk.1513$o15.959@edtnps83 "Chom Noamsky"
was claimed to have wrote:

How much longer is socialism going to have to support the capitalists and
"free" markets?

Capitalism handles this situation nicely, when a company gets too
inefficient it gets replaced either by more efficient competition and it
modifies it's own behaviour or implodes under it's own weight.
====================
Where a lot of this logic fails is when you have monopolies so large that
their failure can take much of the economy with them. The biggest enemy of
capitalism or socialism are the "monopolies."
-lm


The bail-outs are the problem because they unfairly allow an inefficient
company to continue to operate.

Socialism can be made to work, the problem is controlling greed.
Capitalism can be made to work, the problem is avoiding socialism.

People get hurt in both systems, the trick is to find the middle ground
to avoid too many people getting hurt at once. In this respect certain
things in a capitalist society need to be regulated, banking, insurance,
infrastructure, education, courts, safety and defense (both national
defense and police), and probably a few others.

The type of regulation can vary, for things like health, a crown
corporation is likely to be effective. Private hospitals can't get away
with charging $7,000/day if a crown hospital charges $100/day and you
can bet that private insurance will pay a maximum of crown payouts. You
can solve the problem of needing qualified doctors (and other medical
staff) by having the gov't fund the student loans and then letting
doctors work off their loan in crown hospitals and faculties while
paying them a reasonable wage at the same time.

The only case where you really need to nationalize is infrastructure,
police, courts, and defense. Capitalism isn't capable of managing
natural monopolies, so you generally need to nationalize those. You
need some degree of safety, and you really don't want a private police
or court system as they simply have too much power.

The problem today is that for whatever reason we're not willing to let
capitalism prune the massively inefficient wasteful companies and
instead feel the need to maintain them in their inefficient state.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

On Nov 19, 3:18*am, DevilsPGD wrote:


The problem today is that for whatever reason we're not willing to let
capitalism prune the massively inefficient wasteful companies and
instead feel the need to maintain them in their inefficient state.

well that depends. if EVERY company is doing the same thing...such as
credit swaps...and EVERY company is at risk how does the market handle
this?

and if a company is much too big to be allowed to fail, how does the
market handle that? as the saying goes, 'if you owe the bank $1000 you
have a problem; if you owe the bank $1M the bank has a problem'.

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP
 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:58:49 -0800, wf3h wrote:


and if a company is much too big to be allowed to fail, how does the
market handle that?

Simple, don't allow them to get to big to fail. Anti-trust, anyone?

GM Solution that will work, send it to your MP