AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

My boat has non-standard color coding on the AC wiring, typically all
3 wires red instead of the US standard of black, white, green.

Identifying the hot wire is easy but I'm not sure how to positively
identify the neutral wire vs the safety ground. Measuring voltage
from the hot wire yields 110 to either one. This is looking from the
load end not the panel end of course.

Anyone have suggestions?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B wrote:
:My boat has non-standard color coding on the AC wiring, typically all
:3 wires red instead of the US standard of black, white, green.

:Identifying the hot wire is easy but I'm not sure how to positively
:identify the neutral wire vs the safety ground. Measuring voltage
:from the hot wire yields 110 to either one. This is looking from the
:load end not the panel end of course.

:Anyone have suggestions?

Besides replace the wiring with something sane? Get a tone generator
and receiver. You put the tone generator at a known end of the wire.
It puts an RF signal on the wire, which you detect with the receiver.
You should be able to find one locally for about $50 or so.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

David Scheidt wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
:My boat has non-standard color coding on the AC wiring, typically all
:3 wires red instead of the US standard of black, white, green.

:Identifying the hot wire is easy but I'm not sure how to positively
:identify the neutral wire vs the safety ground. Measuring voltage
:from the hot wire yields 110 to either one. This is looking from the
:load end not the panel end of course.

:Anyone have suggestions?

Besides replace the wiring with something sane? Get a tone generator
and receiver. You put the tone generator at a known end of the wire.
It puts an RF signal on the wire, which you detect with the receiver.
You should be able to find one locally for about $50 or so.

Well, the tone generator is one
approach. I assume you don't have an
isolation transformer. If you did, then
the neutral and ground wires would be
bonded at the transformer secondary and
you'd never figure out which is which.

Goes without saying that you should
disconnect the shore power cable before
feeling about. Sanely wired boats do not
have the neutral and ground bonded
onboard the boat. They are connected
back at the marina's entrance panel.

So you can use an ohmmeter, continuity
tester, battery and light bulb, etc., or
a tone generator to determine which red
wire goes to the ground pin on the shore
power connector. Or if you harbor a
proclivity for neutrality, you could
track down the neutral instead.

Another technique (assuming your boat is
actually wired for AC with receptacles,
etc., is to use one of the "polarity
testers" that plug into the outlets.
They cost a few dollars and will tell
you if the receptacle is miswired and if
so, how.

Short of rewiring, which certainly has
its merits, buy a roll of green tape and
white tape and as you identify ground
and neutral, place a dab of tape on the
wire.

Good luck.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

My boat has non-standard color coding on the AC wiring, typically all
3 wires red instead of the US standard of black, white, green.

Identifying the hot wire is easy but I'm not sure how to positively
identify the neutral wire vs the safety ground. Measuring voltage
from the hot wire yields 110 to either one. This is looking from the
load end not the panel end of course.

Anyone have suggestions?

Turn on some loads and measure the return current in each conductor at 0
volts. The neutral should have the same current as the hot. The ground
should carry no current.

But, I'm willing to bet that the ground/neutrals have been mixed up
between junctions and you will see some current on each.

The only way to know for sure is to disconnect each run of wiring
between junction boxes or splices and use a continuity tester.

P.S. Mark everything with appropriate colored tape as you identify it.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust the computer industry to shorten the term "Year 2000" to Y2K.
It was this kind of thinking that got us in trouble in the first place.
-- Adrian Tyvand

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Mon, 21 May 2007 14:44:10 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

My boat has non-standard color coding on the AC wiring, typically all
3 wires red instead of the US standard of black, white, green.

Identifying the hot wire is easy but I'm not sure how to positively
identify the neutral wire vs the safety ground. Measuring voltage
from the hot wire yields 110 to either one. This is looking from the
load end not the panel end of course.

Anyone have suggestions?

Neutral and Ground should not be connected on-board. (although if the
boat is wired with all red wires, there's no telling what strange
things may be going on...)

Disconnect the boat from shore power, and use an ohmmeter to check for
continuity between the Ground pin on the shore power cable and the
unknown wires. (If the boat has an inverter, make certain that it is
disabled while doing _any_ work on the 120VAC system!)


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Mon, 21 May 2007 18:16:26 -0700, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Disconnect the boat from shore power, and use an ohmmeter to check for
continuity between the Ground pin on the shore power cable and the
unknown wires. (If the boat has an inverter, make certain that it is
disabled while doing _any_ work on the 120VAC system!)

Thanks.

I think you meant to say the shore power connector (as opposed to the
cord) if I'm understanding your advice correctly.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Anyone have suggestions?


We could unplug the dock end and drag it into the boat's power panel. The
ground pin on the dock plug is plainly marked. It's L shaped. Just use an
ohmmeter or even a continuity light that's battery powered to find the
right one.



Larry
--
Grade School Physics Factoid:
A building cannot freefall into its own footprint without
skilled demolition.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Tue, 22 May 2007 02:54:15 +0000, Larry wrote:

We could unplug the dock end and drag it into the boat's power panel. The
ground pin on the dock plug is plainly marked. It's L shaped. Just use an
ohmmeter or even a continuity light that's battery powered to find the
right one.

I like that suggestion. The shore power cable is long enough to
easily reach to where I need to do the testing. Let's hope that
neutral and ground are not tied together somewhere.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Tue, 22 May 2007 02:54:15 +0000, Larry wrote:

The
ground pin on the dock plug is plainly marked. It's L shaped.

It turns out that the L shaped pin is ground only on the 20 and 30 amp
connectors. On a 50 amp connector it is neutral:

http://www.marinco.com/docs/guides/Boater'sGuidetoACElectrical.pdf

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:40:34 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 21 May 2007 18:16:26 -0700, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Disconnect the boat from shore power, and use an ohmmeter to check for
continuity between the Ground pin on the shore power cable and the
unknown wires. (If the boat has an inverter, make certain that it is
disabled while doing _any_ work on the 120VAC system!)

Thanks.

I think you meant to say the shore power connector (as opposed to the
cord) if I'm understanding your advice correctly.

Either one - it is probably easier to get the shore end of the cord
near your mystery wires than to stretch the meter leads between the
mystery wires and the shore power connector.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Mon, 21 May 2007 23:08:46 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Let's hope that
neutral and ground are not tied together somewhere.

Well, it seems that neutral and ground are tied together somewhere on
the boat. It's not entirely clear to me what the consequences are but
in the short run it is making it really difficult to identify the
wiring.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B brought forth on stone tablets:
On Mon, 21 May 2007 23:08:46 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:


Let's hope that
neutral and ground are not tied together somewhere.


Well, it seems that neutral and ground are tied together somewhere on
the boat. It's not entirely clear to me what the consequences are but
in the short run it is making it really difficult to identify the
wiring.


Please make sure that you have all your AC appliances unplugged when you
are checking...

bob
s/v Eolian
Seattle

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

RW Salnick wrote:


Please make sure that you have all your AC appliances unplugged when you
are checking...



Also, recall Paul's point that if the
neutral and ground are switched at just
a single receptacle, then the two will
be indistinguishable everywhere.

It is difficult to offer relevant advice
since we really don't know what you are
trying to do. Is it your plan to
correctly wire all the outlets and
appliances? Are there three of these or
thirty? We still don't know if you have
an isolation transformer on board. That
kind of stuff.

Chuck


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Tue, 22 May 2007 15:10:54 -0700, RW Salnick
wrote:

Please make sure that you have all your AC appliances unplugged when you
are checking...

I had all circuit breakers off.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B brought forth on stone tablets:
On Tue, 22 May 2007 15:10:54 -0700, RW Salnick
wrote:


Please make sure that you have all your AC appliances unplugged when you
are checking...


I had all circuit breakers off.


That is not enough - it removes the hot side connection, but the neutral
and ground connections remain. If the appliance has a leakage path
between neutral and ground, opening the breaker will not change
anything. Unplug everything.

bob

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Whatever your original project was that got you asking this question
(I would like to know that answer also), your single minded priority
now should be either

1) finding a qualified electrician to take over the original project,
or who will at the very least evaulate your boat before you next plug
back into shore power. Such an evaluation can only be successful if
you labeled all the wires as recommended in this thread, and such
qualified electrican tests your work with a meter and inspects each
area you stated you modified.

2) if your not going to do #1 above, then identifying and
disconnecting the place in the boat where nuetral and ground are
connected together and undoing must override anything else your
thinking about doing next. You cannot reliable trace the wires, and it
is commonly recognized as bad wiring practice to have them connected.

3) If even better than #2, just stop and don't do anything if you
cannot do #1. If this project does not kill you, it could kill a
future visitor to your boat if the ground protection isn't working,
could kill someone in the water near your boat while it is plugged
into shore power, and can bring with it numerous problems of stray
current to your boat or those nearby.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Wed, 23 May 2007 07:10:11 -0700, RW Salnick
wrote:

That is not enough - it removes the hot side connection, but the neutral
and ground connections remain. If the appliance has a leakage path
between neutral and ground, opening the breaker will not change
anything. Unplug everything.

Thanks, hadn't thought of that issue, interesting. I understand your
point but unfortunately I have a *lot* of hardwired stuff that doesn't
plug in at all, or the plug is inaccessible without major disruption.

I believe that I've finally found the bus bars where all of the
neutrals and grounds terminate. They are behind a panel in the engine
room instead of being near the breaker panel where you would think.
By lifting connections circuit by circuit at the bus bars I think I'll
be able to isolate the cross connect issue, as well as being able to
identify which is ground and which is neutral. Stay tuned!

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 23 May 2007 08:19:00 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Whatever your original project was that got you asking this question
(I would like to know that answer also), your single minded priority
now should be either

The original project was to undo some haywire installed by a previous
owner for a battery charger. I also need to run in a new circuit to
an unused breaker on the AC panel.

Whatever the cause of neutral and ground being tied together
somewhere, I suspect it has been that way for quite awhile.

I'm probably missing something but I don't see too much immediate
danger unless we end up somewhere with the shore power backwards.
That's dangerous in any case.

What are the other risks?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B wrote:


I'm probably missing something but I don't see too much immediate
danger unless we end up somewhere with the shore power backwards.
That's dangerous in any case.

What are the other risks?


First off, I get the impression you
don't know what you're really dealing
with on that boat. I have the impression
from your posts that the wiring is not
properly identified and there is
incorrect wiring of neutral and ground.
These are not indications of a safe
electrical system and "ordinary"
prudence based on the assumption that
the boat is safely wired may not be
appropriate.

To answer your question, the main risk
is that any current in the ground wire
will cause a potential difference
between different ground points. Grab
two appliances with "grounded" cases,
one with each hand, with a potential
difference between their cases and the
risk will reveal itself to you. Do you
know that cannot happen to you on your boat?

Chuck



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Wed, 23 May 2007 12:46:41 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Whatever the cause of neutral and ground being tied together
somewhere, I suspect it has been that way for quite awhile.

The discovery process continues, thanks to everyone who has chipped in
with advice.

Here's the latest:

The AC neutral and safety ground (normally white and green) are
definitely tied together. As I understand it, this is an ABYC
standard although somewhat controversial. The AC safety ground and
the boat DC grounds appear to be totally isolated however.

I was able to buy a non-contact AC current probe at Northern Tool this
afternoon for $16. It is very useful for tracing out circuits and I'm
beginning to make some sense out of the wiring scheme by turning on
one breaker at a time.

The two bus bars that I located earlier are both for safety grounds
not neutral wires. Tomorrow I'll remove some more panels and try to
find the neutral bus. It's got to be hidden away somewhere. Checking
all of the major circuits with a current probe, there appears to be no
detectable return flow to the safety ground bus bars.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne.B wrote:


The AC neutral and safety ground (normally white and green) are
definitely tied together. As I understand it, this is an ABYC
standard although somewhat controversial. The AC safety ground and
the boat DC grounds appear to be totally isolated however.


This seems to say that tying the AC
neutral and grounding wires together is
required by the ABYC standard. The
antecedent to the OP's "this" is ambiguous.

My copy of the ABYC standard is not
ambiguous. It says:

"Neither the shore-grounded (white)
neutral conductor nor ungrounded
current-carrying conductors shall be
grounded on the boat."

In the case of an onboard isolation
transformer, the transformer's secondary
"neutral" is connected to the boat's AC
ground system. But the "shore-grounded
(white) neutral conductor) is NOT
grounded on the boat. This is also an
ABYC standard.

Since it has not been revealed whether
the OP's boat employs an isolation
transformer, it is not clear whether his
boat is in violation of an ABYC standard.

DIY electricians are cautioned to inform
themselves of relevant standards, safety
practices, and electrical fundamentals
before undertaking boat re-wiring tasks.
In addition to potential safety hazards,
any surveys reporting improper wiring
may impose economic costs as well.

Chuck

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne,

You bought a tool ?? I am concerned ... I don't think your taking the
warning provided by both Chuck and I to heart. I didn't here a "thanks
guys your right", I am meeting your concern by doing x,w,z, etc.

Instead your next post contains an incorrect reference to ABYC, and
you will buy a new tool ???

Your just buying a tool, now? No experience using it ? I know it
looks simple to use a tool to trace one wire, but preventing stray
current that can either kill or corrode (then sink your boat), has a
set of best practices behind it that are lengthy and honesty difficult
to impliment fully for a novice. In the trade, new guys spend months
working with and being double checked by experienced electricians on
AC wiring before they handle it on their own, and they still take
short cuts as it is time consuming to do it right even when you know
it all.

Chuck gave a great example of one possible outcome, there are many
more.

You want to continue to enjoy boating don't you ?
Just do the right thing and stop now.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 24 May 2007 12:07:46 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Instead your next post contains an incorrect reference to ABYC, and
you will buy a new tool ???

I appreciate your concern but I'm not really a novice at all this.

Please explain my "incorrect reference to ABYC".

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Wed, 23 May 2007 23:52:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:


The AC neutral and safety ground (normally white and green) are
definitely tied together. As I understand it, this is an ABYC
standard although somewhat controversial. The AC safety ground and
the boat DC grounds appear to be totally isolated however.

NO! ABYC, CSA and probably other standards require that the shore
power neutral (white) and the safety ground (green) MUST NOT be
connected on board. (They will be connected somewhere ashore.)

If you have an on-board power source (generator, inverter, or
isolation transformer), then while using that power source, the
on-board neutral and safety ground must be tied together at the
source.

In any case, the on-board safety ground (green) must be tied to the
vessel ground. The shore-side safety ground must be tied to the
vessel ground either directly, or through a galvanic isolator.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On May 24, 6:10 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On 24 May 2007 12:07:46 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Instead your next post contains an incorrect reference to ABYC, and
you will buy a new tool ???

I appreciate your concern but I'm not really a novice at all this.

Please explain my "incorrect reference to ABYC".

Wayne,

What ever word you want to use for your experience level ... if your
not aware of the dangers (you asked us what they were remember) and
best practices (corrosion avoidance/stray current prevention, use of
ground & nuetral to protect humans on board and potentially in the
water around your boat, mounting and connecting wires to preventing
fires, etc.), your not qualified to do this alone. If your want to
save some money and run and/or mark wires yourself with help from this
board, you clearly need an experienced electrician to at least check
your work when your finished, before hooking up to shore power again.

Marking all the wires yourself will save you easily over 80% of the
cost of having an electrician do everything (but you got to do it
right), but still could involve an expense of over $500-$800 to have
someone carefully check the work. If your not ready to spend that
money, put off the project and go boating instead.

Now read that first paragraph again, because that $500-$800 will get
you someone who:
- Is aware of the dangers that the ABYC standards are attempting to
prevent.
- Might not be an expert, but clearly understands the ABYC standards
and best practices that will prevent stray current (under water).
Stray current hurts your exposed metal parts under your boat, destroys
the zinc anodes on the boats around you, and represents a risk to
people in the water like the local diver who might be cleaning under
the boat next to you.
- Could inspect connections, etc. to spot fire hazards that might not
be apparent or connections that are simply prone to failure.
- In addition to checking your work, will spot hazardous conditions
caused by people before you ... and really, you cannot have any faith
in someone who didn't use color coded wiring.

Dan

p.s. check me out, I post on several boards, the electronics expert on
the beneteau 393 group, contibute to Ben Ellison's marine electronics
blog, and am on a readers advisory board for an offshore sailing
magazine. Not once, has someone posted that I am alarmist, and few
errors have been noted in my postings.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 25 May 2007 06:19:04 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

- In addition to checking your work, will spot hazardous conditions
caused by people before you ... and really, you cannot have any faith
in someone who didn't use color coded wiring.

Thanks, we both agree the wiring leaves a lot to be desired but
redoing the whole thing at one time is too big an undertaking for now.
At the moment I'm just trying to straighten out the worst of the
previous owner(s) haywire and not make anything worse.

The color coding issue is common to most boats built in the far east,
Singapore in my case. Although it's a mystery to us, they did have a
standard that they were following and there are number tags on every
wire that was factory installed. Now it's my job to try and
understand it, and fix the worst of any short comings. This is a 50
ft trawler with a lot of hidden wiring, 2 generators, an inverter and
probably over a mile of circuits. Even with all of the PO's haywire
it has been doing OK for 26 years and many thousands of sea miles.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Thu, 24 May 2007 19:11:33 -0700, Peter Bennett
wrote:

The AC neutral and safety ground (normally white and green) are
definitely tied together. As I understand it, this is an ABYC
standard although somewhat controversial. The AC safety ground and
the boat DC grounds appear to be totally isolated however.

NO! ABYC, CSA and probably other standards require that the shore
power neutral (white) and the safety ground (green) MUST NOT be
connected on board. (They will be connected somewhere ashore.)

OK, Peter and Dan, you are both being very helpful, thanks. Please
bear with me for one or two more iteration levels into my
understanding.

Here's the situation: The boat has two 120 volt, 50 amp AC legs,180
degrees out of phase with a neutral wire circuit in the middle similar
to house wiring. Each 50 amp leg can be isolated with its own double
pole breaker. All three wires (hot-neutral-hot) are easily
accessible.

I went out today and bought a digital clamp on ammeter. My theory is
that if I have leakage through a ground path, it should show up as a
current imbalance between the hot wire and neutral wire, similar to
the logic in a GFI.

So here is my next stupid question, sorry. If one of the loads has
the safety ground and neutral wire inadvertantly reversed, it seems to
me that this should show up as a current imbalance as I previously
outlined. In your opinion, is this a valid test for that condition?

If so, my next plan is to test every circuit and load, one at a time,
to make sure that nothing was haywired in the past, and that nothing
is leaking current to ground.

Stupid question number 2. I believe that if I have two equal
resistive loads, one on each leg, that the net neutral wire current
should read zero. Can you verify if that assumption is correct?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Wayne ?

I half expected to see a post here that you bought yet another tool,
maybe a clamp on ammeter would probably be next, and asking more
questions.

I truly hope after the warnings we gave you, you spent memorial day
weekend out boating instead of working on your A/C

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 29 May 2007 19:09:08 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

I half expected to see a post here that you bought yet another tool,
maybe a clamp on ammeter would probably be next, and asking more
questions.

You guessed it, I did buy a clamp on ammeter, nice little digital unit
at Home Despot for about $50. You really can't have too many tools,
and any excuse will do... :-)

As you already knew or suspected, something in the AC wiring system is
totally FUBAR. There is a significant current imbalance (amps)
between the black wire and neutral on both 50 amp legs indicating
leakage back through the green wire. The same situation exists under
generator power, with shore power totally disconnected. Any ideas on
how to safely test for leakage into the water?

I finished up rewiring the battery charger, confident that I had in
fact located neutral and green correctly, and color coded the wires
with tape for future reference.

I made a few attempts to further isolate the leakage issue but nothing
conclusive yet. One thing that is bothersome is that both 50 amp legs
have the imbalance, even though each leg should in theory be isolated
by its own double pole breaker.

Much more work needs to be done obviously. I will get to the bottom
of it eventually, and with professional help if necessary. If you're
anywhere near SW FL stop by sometime and join in the fun.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

Yikes ... you really are continuing this !! (I missed until now that I
had to advance the thread to the next page)

You bought another tool ? A tool that only works with live power
flowing ?

Hey man, I am going to underline spit on your grave underline if
you kill yourself or someone else, after all these warnings.

Knowing now you have a 50' with a generator and two shore power
cables, my previous estimates of cost to have someone check this out
when your done is admittedly going to be low, my estimate of how badly
you need help has increased 2 fold, and my belief you can control your
total costs of the project by doing some of the work yourself is
quickly diminishing. (you mentioned the wires, even though all red,
are already marked; using an ammeter creates opportunity to cause new
problems and costs)

In answer to your questions:
- Using an ammeter the way you describe is going to fustrate you, not
really help, and is dangerous despite the appearance of the insulated
grips and probe.

DANGEROUS: This tool only works while the power is flowing, and
requires you to get at one lead at at time. Unavoidably your going to
start opening up panels, twisting individual wires out of the way to
get the probe around the other, etc. This will stress physical
connections to get at those leads creating opportunities to cause new
problems, and expose yourself to electricity, burns, or fire.

FUSTRATE: Ammeters don't find problems, so much as they identify
symptoms of a problem, often very far from the source. Short
instruction manual, appears easy to use, but this tool will send you
in circles. Next you will be disconnecting wires to simplify the
circuits your looking at ... you know what I mean, you probably have
done so already. Changing wiring can also appear to have fixed the
problem, but all you have done is prevent the ammeter from seeing the
symptom of a problem elsewhere on the boat. Ammeters read magnetic
fields. A little like ghost hunting, although based on real science,
can be equally as unrewarding as ghost hunting. Wouldn't your rather
be boating ??

NOT REALLY HELPFUL BY ITSELF: Once you get things in balance, it won't
prove anything either. It's a one way street. Being out of balance
indicates a problem, but being in balance dosn't get you in the clear,
you easily can still be lacking ground protection in a specific
circuit that could kill someone.

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year. If you have 20 opportunities to go boating each year
(due to weather, hurricane season, wife needs you to do work around
the house, kids have soccer, etc.), each weekend you loose is worth
$2,500. Why not cut your losses and get it taken care of by a pro?

What marina are you at / slip / name of your boat ?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 30 May 2007 05:48:28 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year. If you have 20 opportunities to go boating each year
(due to weather, hurricane season, wife needs you to do work around
the house, kids have soccer, etc.), each weekend you loose is worth
$2,500. Why not cut your losses and get it taken care of by a pro?

Your overall number of $50K/yr is in the ball park but my situation is
different. Being retired I have a lot of time for both boating, and
working on the boat. It's docked at the house so access is quick and
easy. In order to keep costs under control I try to do as much of the
boat maintenance as I'm capable of. Diesel engines, generators and
hydraulic systems are totally beyond my expertise but electrical
systems and electronics are areas where I have some experience, not
necessarily boat experience, but well grounded in the fundamentals.
Past projects have turned out well and I'm sure this one will also.

If I called in an "expert" at $85/hr for everything that needed to be
done on the boat, my annual maintenance budget would be at least
double. That's why people come to these internet forums, to expand
their knowledge, and help others do the same.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On May 30, 7:55 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On 30 May 2007 05:48:28 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year. If you have 20 opportunities to go boating each year
(due to weather, hurricane season, wife needs you to do work around
the house, kids have soccer, etc.), each weekend you loose is worth
$2,500. Why not cut your losses and get it taken care of by a pro?

Your overall number of $50K/yr is in the ball park but my situation is
different. Being retired I have a lot of time for both boating, and
working on the boat. It's docked at the house so access is quick and
easy. In order to keep costs under control I try to do as much of the
boat maintenance as I'm capable of. Diesel engines, generators and
hydraulic systems are totally beyond my expertise but electrical
systems and electronics are areas where I have some experience, not
necessarily boat experience, but well grounded in the fundamentals.
Past projects have turned out well and I'm sure this one will also.

If I called in an "expert" at $85/hr for everything that needed to be
done on the boat, my annual maintenance budget would be at least
double. That's why people come to these internet forums, to expand
their knowledge, and help others do the same.

I can appreciate that, but if seems like A/C systems should be in that
list too just before or after diesel's.

Unlike shore based systems, in marine you have issues of D/C, A/C,
lightening protection, and corrosion all intertwined and various trade-
off decisions made on a case by case basis with each model boat. Short
of a written description from the boat designer about his decisions,
an accurate schematic, and a list of changes made since production ...
it's going to be pretty difficult to give us the information we need
to assist you.

At least with a diesel or generator, you have thousands of people with
the same engine who can give you sound advice. And, in general, when
it's working correct it's pretty easy to realize that (even for people
without a gift for it). With A/C power, it can appear to work, while
silently corroding metal surfaces under your boat, boats nearby, or
electrically shock occupants or people underwater without tripping
breakers or fuses at all.

Recently I took to looking at my own boat's electrical system, after
having a zinc disinegrate, and having a real hard time finding useful
information about the decisions and tradeoff's beneteau made in my
boats design, and then determining if I have a problem or is the cause
another boat in the marina. There might just not be an answer that
dosn't involve taking measurements of other boats as well. I just
cannot see, in isolation, how your going to know when your "done" with
your project, unlike a diesel engine where you can be pretty sure the
mechanic did the job well.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On 30 May 2007 17:55:06 -0700, b393capt
wrote:

I just
cannot see, in isolation, how your going to know when your "done" with
your project, unlike a diesel engine where you can be pretty sure the
mechanic did the job well.

With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.

2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.

4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.

5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On May 30, 12:48 pm, b393capt wrote:
..

Also ... how about the math. A 50 foot boat has got to cost you,
including depreciation, insurance, yard services, wear and tear
(corrosion) of boat and electronics even when not moving, of upward of
$50,000 a year.
WOW

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.
From what information have you posted that any of us could begin to
post helpful information on this ?


2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

I am not convinced there is an inbalance based on the readings from a
$50 radio shack ammeter, that is subject to picking up magnetic fields
from adjacent wires that are not passing inside the clamp. What did
you read exactly? Did it change as you changed the position of the
ammeter (e.g. rotate 45, then 90 degrees) ?

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.

From what information ?

4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.

From what information ?

5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

This is extremely easy,

6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On May 31, 10:54 pm, b393capt wrote:
With all due respect, you are long on criticism and short on
suggestions.

I'll be happy if I can:

1. Locate the cause or causes of the neutral wire to green wire low
resistance.
From what information have you posted that any of us could begin to

post helpful information on this ?

2. Eliminate the apparent neutral wire leakage/imbalance (hopefully as
a side benefit of #1).

I am not convinced there is an inbalance based on the readings from a
$50 radio shack ammeter, that is subject to picking up magnetic fields
from adjacent wires that are not passing inside the clamp. What did
you read exactly? Did it change as you changed the position of the
ammeter (e.g. rotate 45, then 90 degrees) ?

3. Understand the overall AC wiring scheme including the locations of
the neutral bus and green wire bus and how they relate to the wire
coding scheme.
From what information ?
4. Get the green wire bus properly grounded.
From what information ?
5. Install working GFIs where needed (galley and heads).

This is extremely easy,



6. Verify that all loads and branch circuits are properly connected.

Any other suggestions?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wayne,

I am curious as to what you decided to do.

AC wiring question - identifying neutral wire
 

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:55:19 -0000, b393capt
wrote:

I am curious as to what you decided to do

There are two kinds of unfinished projects on a boat:

Winter projects and summer projects.

Winter projects are those that did not get done in the summer, and
summer projects are those that did not get done in the winter.

Right now we are looking at a winter project.

Next winter.