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Antenna cable?
I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details
about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit |
Antenna cable?
cavelamb himself wrote:
I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit Use RG-8x or if you have room for the larger diameter use RG-8U krj |
Antenna cable?
cavelamb himself inscribed in red ink for all to know:
I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit Use RG8 or RG8x bob s/v Eolian Seattle |
Antenna cable?
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:02:14 -0800, RW Salnick
wrote: cavelamb himself inscribed in red ink for all to know: I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit Use RG8 or RG8x How long cable? Lower loss cable such as RG8 for masthead installations, but RG58 is quite ok for shorter cables. BTW, make sure to use good quality connectors and be carefull that connections are waterproof. Having boating and ham radio experience for 20 plus years, 99% of problems have something to do with poor corroded connections ... Mika -- ---------------------------------------------------- Haluatko lähettää postia? Vaihda osoitteen eka (vai oliko se toka?) numero vitonen numeroksi kahdeksan... ---------------------------------------------------- |
Antenna cable?
If you are going to the masthead the ultimate in low loss would be LMR-400
or 400UF. Slightly lighter weight than RG-8 with about half the loss at 157mhz. LMR type coax is real popular with the wifi folks but I don't know why it has not been better accepted in marine VHF. It is lighter weight and handles bends with less loss than the regularly used coax. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "cavelamb himself" wrote in message nk.net... I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit |
Antenna cable?
Mika wrote:
On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:02:14 -0800, RW Salnick wrote: cavelamb himself inscribed in red ink for all to know: I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit Use RG8 or RG8x How long cable? Lower loss cable such as RG8 for masthead installations, but RG58 is quite ok for shorter cables. BTW, make sure to use good quality connectors and be carefull that connections are waterproof. Having boating and ham radio experience for 20 plus years, 99% of problems have something to do with poor corroded connections ... Mika God is in the details, so they say. Yes, I'm mounting the antenna on the mast head. the mast is 24 feet long (hey, it's a Capri 18!). Add another 10 or 12 feet for routing the cable out of the way in the cabin... The antenna is a 3db Shakespear that has a built in cable. The mounting instructions say the cable can be shortened but must be at least 3 feet long. I haven't decided whether to coil it up at the mast head or maybe put a bracket a couple of feet lower to attach the connectors. Either way there is a connector at the top of the mast, one at the bottom (it's a trailerable boat) and one at the radio. I thought about putting a deck clam near the mast and just running the cable from the top of the mast to the radio, but for the fact that we drop the mast to travel several times a year. I hear ya about connector problems. The only local source for cable and connectors is Radio Shack(!) (PL-259 is spec) Where do I look (and what am I looking for) in regard to connectors? Richard BTY, pics of my boat at: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavel...rit.htm#spirit |
Antenna cable?
Glenn Ashmore wrote:
If you are going to the masthead the ultimate in low loss would be LMR-400 or 400UF. Slightly lighter weight than RG-8 with about half the loss at 157mhz. LMR type coax is real popular with the wifi folks but I don't know why it has not been better accepted in marine VHF. It is lighter weight and handles bends with less loss than the regularly used coax. What glen said! LMR (Times Microwave) has the LMR series coaxial cable in a range of sizes that will replace RG-58, RG-8, or any other commonly used coax. And it outperforms all of the "old standards" by the specs and in my experience. http://www.timesmicrowave.com/wireless/index.shtml Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA (jackerbes at adelphia dot net) (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine dot com) |
Antenna cable?
Jack Erbes wrote:
Glenn Ashmore wrote: If you are going to the masthead the ultimate in low loss would be LMR-400 or 400UF. Slightly lighter weight than RG-8 with about half the loss at 157mhz. LMR type coax is real popular with the wifi folks but I don't know why it has not been better accepted in marine VHF. It is lighter weight and handles bends with less loss than the regularly used coax. What glen said! LMR (Times Microwave) has the LMR series coaxial cable in a range of sizes that will replace RG-58, RG-8, or any other commonly used coax. And it outperforms all of the "old standards" by the specs and in my experience. http://www.timesmicrowave.com/wireless/index.shtml Jack Will check it out. The recomendation from BoatUS was PVC jacket and tinned internal conductor (ratehr than bare copper). And to avoid foam filled cables. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/antennas.htm So? PVC jacket, tinned stranded internal conductor, and.. What kind of insulation? Air? We do occasionally swim in the salt... Richard |
Antenna cable?
cavelamb himself wrote in news:4hXdh.7885
: RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 "Staggering"? RG-6 would be much better at about the same price. It's only a hair bigger diameter, available at any marine store selling electronics. With a 40' run of RG-6 you still get 75% efficiency. If you must: http://shop.electro-comm.com/ac/Prod...=19707&view=24 LMR-1700-DB, double-shielded, direct burial, waterPROOF will give you 97.9% at 156.8 for 40' but noone will notice it on the air, only in your pocket book at $10/ft plus some pretty impressive connectors. Way overkill. It's 1 1/4" diameter...not good. RG-6 is better. The Icom M802 on Lionheart has about 70' of RG-6 to a Metz Manta 6 at 55'. Savannah is 100 miles from here. I hear them all the time and I know they can hear me because they called me...(c; Larry -- If we eliminate religion, will they stop murdering each other? |
Antenna cable?
OOPS...belay my last!....RG-8X
I been spending way too much time fooling with wifi crap....(c; sorry INCOMING! HEAD FOR THE SHELTER!! It should have read: "Staggering"? RG-8X would be much better at about the same price. It's only a hair bigger diameter, available at any marine store selling electronics. With a 40' run of RG-8X you still get 75% efficiency. If you must: http://shop.electro-comm.com/ac/Prod...=19707&view=24 LMR-1700-DB, double-shielded, direct burial, waterPROOF will give you 97.9% at 156.8 for 40' but noone will notice it on the air, only in your pocket book at $10/ft plus some pretty impressive connectors. Way overkill. It's 1 1/4" diameter...not good. RG-6 is better. The Icom M802 on Lionheart has about 70' of RG-8X to a Metz Manta 6 at 55'. Savannah is 100 miles from here. I hear them all the time and I know they can hear me because they called me...(c; Larry -- If we eliminate religion, will they stop murdering each other? |
Antenna cable?
This table shows results for the 2Meter ham band, which is very close
to the vhf marine band. There are many other options, but most are rare so very much more expensive, and connectors harder to find. This data came from http://www.antennex.com/preview/Fold...4/newstat1.htm Note: 3dB cuts the power [or received signal] in half. Also: mouser.com & graybar.com are places that I frequent for this sort of thing, competative prices and market rate shipping. tom =-== Cable Insertion Loss at 150 MHz, 100-Foot (30.5 m) Length Cable Type Cable Loss Comments RG-58C/U 6.6 dB Very short cable runs, Test Cables RG-58U 6.0 dB Very short cable runs, Test Cables RG-8U 3.2 dB OK up to 30 feet (9.15 m) RG-8U FOAM 2.2 dB OK up to 45 feet (13.7 m) 9913 (Belden) 1.7 dB Recommended for all installations ..5 Inch "Hard Line" 1.0 dB Excellent but may be cost prohibitive cavelamb himself wrote: I'm adding a VHF radio to my sailboat and would like to ask for details about the antenna cable. RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 Spirit |
Antenna cable?
RG8 [not 6] is MUCH bigger in diameter than RG58. RG58 is also much
mor flexable. But I wouldn't recommend it for this length, unless a very sharp bend is absolutely necessary. tom =-== Larry wrote: cavelamb himself wrote in news:4hXdh.7885 : RG-58 is recommended, but the losses in the cable seem staggering! Is there a better cable for antenna connections??? Richard Capri 18 "Staggering"? RG-6 would be much better at about the same price. It's only a hair bigger diameter, available at any marine store selling electronics. With a 40' run of RG-6 you still get 75% efficiency. If you must: http://shop.electro-comm.com/ac/Prod...=19707&view=24 LMR-1700-DB, double-shielded, direct burial, waterPROOF will give you 97.9% at 156.8 for 40' but noone will notice it on the air, only in your pocket book at $10/ft plus some pretty impressive connectors. Way overkill. It's 1 1/4" diameter...not good. RG-6 is better. The Icom M802 on Lionheart has about 70' of RG-6 to a Metz Manta 6 at 55'. Savannah is 100 miles from here. I hear them all the time and I know they can hear me because they called me...(c; Larry -- If we eliminate religion, will they stop murdering each other? |
Antenna cable?
LMR cable has polyethylene outer jacket and foam insulator so you have to be
very careful about sealing up the connectors. The LMR-DB cable is filled with an inert gel to prevent water migration and is guaranteed for 10, years. I used LMR-400DB with SMA connectors which are about the same diameter as the cable and slip a piece of adhesive lined shrink tubing over the joint. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "cavelamb himself" wrote in message ink.net... Jack Erbes wrote: Glenn Ashmore wrote: If you are going to the masthead the ultimate in low loss would be LMR-400 or 400UF. Slightly lighter weight than RG-8 with about half the loss at 157mhz. LMR type coax is real popular with the wifi folks but I don't know why it has not been better accepted in marine VHF. It is lighter weight and handles bends with less loss than the regularly used coax. What glen said! LMR (Times Microwave) has the LMR series coaxial cable in a range of sizes that will replace RG-58, RG-8, or any other commonly used coax. And it outperforms all of the "old standards" by the specs and in my experience. http://www.timesmicrowave.com/wireless/index.shtml Jack Will check it out. The recomendation from BoatUS was PVC jacket and tinned internal conductor (ratehr than bare copper). And to avoid foam filled cables. http://www.boatus.com/boattech/antennas.htm So? PVC jacket, tinned stranded internal conductor, and.. What kind of insulation? Air? We do occasionally swim in the salt... Richard |
Antenna cable?
Well,
It's about time. I was starting to wonder why you had the VHF tied into the broadband. Matt Larry wrote: OOPS...belay my last!....RG-8X I been spending way too much time fooling with wifi crap....(c; sorry INCOMING! HEAD FOR THE SHELTER!! It should have read: "Staggering"? RG-8X would be much better at about the same price. It's only a hair bigger diameter, available at any marine store selling electronics. With a 40' run of RG-8X you still get 75% efficiency. If you must: http://shop.electro-comm.com/ac/Prod...=19707&view=24 LMR-1700-DB, double-shielded, direct burial, waterPROOF will give you 97.9% at 156.8 for 40' but noone will notice it on the air, only in your pocket book at $10/ft plus some pretty impressive connectors. Way overkill. It's 1 1/4" diameter...not good. RG-6 is better. The Icom M802 on Lionheart has about 70' of RG-8X to a Metz Manta 6 at 55'. Savannah is 100 miles from here. I hear them all the time and I know they can hear me because they called me...(c; Larry |
Antenna cable?
"tlindly" wrote RG8 [not 6] is MUCH bigger in diameter than RG58. RG58 is also much mor flexable. But I wouldn't recommend it for this length, unless a very sharp bend is absolutely necessary. tom Besides that, if you ran RG8 on an 18ft Capri, it would likely turn turtle! Always minimise weight aloft on a sailing vessel! GM |
Antenna cable?
Gm1234 wrote:
"tlindly" wrote RG8 [not 6] is MUCH bigger in diameter than RG58. RG58 is also much mor flexable. But I wouldn't recommend it for this length, unless a very sharp bend is absolutely necessary. tom Besides that, if you ran RG8 on an 18ft Capri, it would likely turn turtle! Always minimise weight aloft on a sailing vessel! GM There is a good calculator for coax losses at http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 krj |
Antenna cable?
Matt Colie wrote in :
Well, It's about time. I was starting to wonder why you had the VHF tied into the broadband. Matt RG-6 would work fine. We've run some bigtime 2 meter repeaters using 75 ohm hardline we got for free from the local cable companies. I used to have a storage yard under a paging tower that was overrun with it. I gave it away to anyone who asked for it. Lots of ham radio stations have it buried in their yards, still, 10-20 years later. RG-6 is that cable running to your TV in the living room. The direct burial stuff the cable guys on the trucks have is great. You can lay it anywhere in the bilge and it won't leak like 8X does....even with the fancy white cover. There are even PL-259 UHF crimp-on connectors with sealer built into the crimp for it. "Coax is a terrible thing to waste"....(c;) |
Antenna cable?
krj wrote in news:S6heh.23081$T6.392
@bignews5.bellsouth.net: A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 krj OK, so here's a little reality check...... Stop by any Radio Shack and look closely at the S-meter on any CB radio in the shop. http://www.smeter.net/slc/signal/strengths.php It doesn't matter this is VHF or HF or whatever. 6db is one S-unit..... So, 1 s-unit drop is 1/4 the power (1/2 the voltage) of the field, approximately. This might be important on HF where noise is a factor, but not VHF because it's LINE OF SIGHT. From a 50' 3db sailboat antenna, 25 watts = 50W ERP at 50'. 15 watts = 30W ERP at 50'. In BOTH cases, the signal at the RADIO HORIZON is significantly more than is necessary for solid comms unless you're behind a 60' wall of seawater (in a trough in 30' seas) which puts the other station over your radio horizon every 10 seconds and radio is somewhere down the list of priorities at that moment. The only place on VHF where 1 S-unit might be a factor is around a busy marina city where the marina has a 50' tower he shouldn't and a 25W radio I think should be a violation of his license. It just creates havoc at distance. Marinas need walkie talkie licenses ONLY. If you want to reserve a slip, call them on the cellphone, not Ch16. A few of the old public correspondence channels ought to be converted to marina channels and they should be restricted to it so boaters can listen to 16 WITHOUT all those dock calls, which makes you want to turn the volume down from the constant calling....The 1 S-unit might make a small difference trying to get an emergency declared when some big Hatteras is calling about a slip....at 25 watts, of course. Every marina radio in Charleston is setting on 25 watts. Check yours, unannounced, and take a sample in your area. Ask the teenaged girl behind the desk if she sees an H or L on the little screen. She'll have no idea what it means or how to change it. She's not allowed to do anything like that.... RG-8X or RG-58A/U or RG-8 (3/4") or RG-17A/U (1.5") won't make a hoot's difference on the air......to another boat on the horizon.....It's physics. |
Antenna cable?
krj wrote:
Gm1234 wrote: "tlindly" wrote RG8 [not 6] is MUCH bigger in diameter than RG58. RG58 is also much mor flexable. But I wouldn't recommend it for this length, unless a very sharp bend is absolutely necessary. tom Besides that, if you ran RG8 on an 18ft Capri, it would likely turn turtle! Always minimise weight aloft on a sailing vessel! GM Might make a good mizzen mast? Unstayed??? There is a good calculator for coax losses at http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 krj Well, considering all aspects of this, RG8 foam core - WELL SEALED might be the best choice for me. Now, how to seal up the connectors? Adhesive lined heat shrink may be fine for the top one, but the deck connector? That one has to come apart occasionally. And, it's probably the one most exposed to the spray... |
Antenna cable?
Look up Tommy Tape. It is a self amalgamating plastic tape. You stretch it
as it is applied which frees up the adhesive. Makes a very watertight seal. Just cut it off when you need to disconnect the cable. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "cavelamb himself" wrote in message ink.net... krj wrote: Gm1234 wrote: "tlindly" wrote RG8 [not 6] is MUCH bigger in diameter than RG58. RG58 is also much mor flexable. But I wouldn't recommend it for this length, unless a very sharp bend is absolutely necessary. tom Besides that, if you ran RG8 on an 18ft Capri, it would likely turn turtle! Always minimise weight aloft on a sailing vessel! GM Might make a good mizzen mast? Unstayed??? There is a good calculator for coax losses at http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 krj Well, considering all aspects of this, RG8 foam core - WELL SEALED might be the best choice for me. Now, how to seal up the connectors? Adhesive lined heat shrink may be fine for the top one, but the deck connector? That one has to come apart occasionally. And, it's probably the one most exposed to the spray... |
Antenna cable?
Larry is correct. 40' of rg58 with a matched antenna will have about 2db of loss on the marine band. This is nothing to be concerned about. Nobody can tell, with there ears, the difference between the rg58 vice LMR400. Use the rg58 and use BNC connectors. You can cut the antenna cable as short as you want because you are adding another 40' length of cable. Most laymen just don't understand the relationship between power output and field strength. Eric |
Antenna cable?
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:02:42 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote: krj wrote: Might make a good mizzen mast? Unstayed??? There is a good calculator for coax losses at http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 Like many people have said, 15 or 20 watts and you cannot hear the difference. It is antenna height that matters as far as range is concerned. Masthead installation means antenna us way up, but hard to fix if something goes wrong. And most likely extra connectors, as you would need to detach the antenna when you take your mast down. My VHF antenna is only some 3 meters above deck. Permanent installation and therefore less maintenance problems. Coast guard stations 20-30 nautical miles away come in strong since they have antennas way up in tower, and I can hear and work anything within visible horizon. If you dont go far offshore, this is enough for emergency communcations etc. Well, considering all aspects of this, RG8 foam core - WELL SEALED might be the best choice for me. Foam is great for fixed installations such as your ham radio antenna at home. But I wouldnt use foam for boating installations. Any bends etc, and center could eventually short circut with shield. Now, how to seal up the connectors? Adhesive lined heat shrink may be fine for the top one, but the deck connector? That one has to come apart occasionally. I used just electrican´s tape with masthead antenna installation on my previous boat. Takes is few minutes to seal up in spring and take off in fall. If connectors corrode, you can clean the surface or even replace them every few years. Leave somewhere a few extra inches of cable so you can replace connectors. But make sure you seal cable and connector so that water will not enter cable. Its not a disaster if contact surface corrodes a bit, but any leak and coax will be filled with water. Still OK to your DC meter, but water in cable spells very high losses in HF and VHF, nothing like in line loss calculations when different cable types vere compared. Cable filled with water is better thrown away. Mika -- ---------------------------------------------------- Haluatko lähettää postia? Vaihda osoitteen eka (vai oliko se toka?) numero vitonen numeroksi kahdeksan... ---------------------------------------------------- |
Antenna cable?
Iv'e used NewMar's Thru-dex fittings for years. They are a bit pricey
so also take a look at Blue Sea cable clams for about half the price. http://www.rapidresponsemarine.net/b...-Fittings.html http://www.consumersmarine.com/modpe...&i=920048&aID= Both of these allow you to drill a hole large enough for your connector but still give a good seal. Eric cavelamb wrote: Still have to get it through the deck, but hey - making progress here, boss. I photographed my neighbors deck connections (Catalina 27) and put it at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavel...es/deckpin.jpg Anybody have a source for these things? |
Antenna cable?
Larry wrote:
krj wrote in news:S6heh.23081$T6.392 @bignews5.bellsouth.net: A 25W VHF at 156 mhz with 40 ft of RG-58 will have 15.819W at the antenna. With RG-8X it will be 16.741W. With RG-8U it will be 19.859W. Assuming a VSWR of 1.3 krj OK, so here's a little reality check...... Stop by any Radio Shack and look closely at the S-meter on any CB radio in the shop. http://www.smeter.net/slc/signal/strengths.php It doesn't matter this is VHF or HF or whatever. 6db is one S-unit..... So, 1 s-unit drop is 1/4 the power (1/2 the voltage) of the field, approximately. This might be important on HF where noise is a factor, but not VHF because it's LINE OF SIGHT. From a 50' 3db sailboat antenna, 25 watts = 50W ERP at 50'. 15 watts = 30W ERP at 50'. In BOTH cases, the signal at the RADIO HORIZON is significantly more than is necessary for solid comms unless you're behind a 60' wall of seawater (in a trough in 30' seas) which puts the other station over your radio horizon every 10 seconds and radio is somewhere down the list of priorities at that moment. The only place on VHF where 1 S-unit might be a factor is around a busy marina city where the marina has a 50' tower he shouldn't and a 25W radio I think should be a violation of his license. It just creates havoc at distance. Marinas need walkie talkie licenses ONLY. If you want to reserve a slip, call them on the cellphone, not Ch16. A few of the old public correspondence channels ought to be converted to marina channels and they should be restricted to it so boaters can listen to 16 WITHOUT all those dock calls, which makes you want to turn the volume down from the constant calling....The 1 S-unit might make a small difference trying to get an emergency declared when some big Hatteras is calling about a slip....at 25 watts, of course. Every marina radio in Charleston is setting on 25 watts. Check yours, unannounced, and take a sample in your area. Ask the teenaged girl behind the desk if she sees an H or L on the little screen. She'll have no idea what it means or how to change it. She's not allowed to do anything like that.... RG-8X or RG-58A/U or RG-8 (3/4") or RG-17A/U (1.5") won't make a hoot's difference on the air......to another boat on the horizon.....It's physics. These days, an s-unit may turn out to be as small as 3 or 4 dB. Can't go by the S-meters. The important comparison for coax is the difference in cable losses in dB. If the difference between two alternatives is on the order of 1 or 2 dB, it is not likely to be noticeable. I don't think I saw any comments on foam insulation problems. With sharp bends, the foam compresses and changes the impedance of the cable resulting in higher vswr and losses. For sharp bends (less than 6 inch radius) avoid the foam. Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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