Windlass Wiring Question
 

I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the
windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage
drop of only 2%.

With 50 amps on a 72' run #4 is the absolute minimum size you should use.
Even then including the windlass leads you will be close to 10% voltage
drop. Using #8 you would loose more than 20%.

How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Don Mahony" wrote in message
...
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Don Mahony wrote:
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

We got round this by using the engine starter battery and positioning it so
that it was as close to the windlass as possible (up forward) but still had
enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know
about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery).

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Dennis Pogson wrote:
Don Mahony wrote:
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

We got round this by using the engine starter battery and positioning it so
that it was as close to the windlass as possible (up forward) but still had
enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know
about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery).



As a variation on Dennis' approach, some
folks will place a relatively small,
dedicated battery near the windlass. A
battery that will supply 50 A for a
minute or two need not be very large.

Voltage drop is all but eliminated. This
battery can be connected to your regular
(starter or preferably, house) battery
using wire as small as number 16, since
it will generally carry only small
currents needed to restore energy lost
by use of the windlass. Routing is
certainly easier.

May not make sense in a particular
installation, but can be less expensive
in others.

Good luck.

Chuck

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Windlass Wiring Question
 

Don Mahony wrote in
:

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.



Precisely why the wire is #4 for the long run. #10 is fine for very short
distances, like inside the windlass.

Shhh....don't tell anyone I told you this....#4 wire from the car stereo
shop, or even #2, is LOTS cheaper and works just great!

400% profit doesn't make it work better....(c;

Also try welding cables, which come in these smaller sizes #2 and #4.

Tell your yachtie friends you only used the most expensive "marine grade"
wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on
the dock.

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Thanks for the reply Glenn.

The batteries are on the port side down in the engine compartment. To
come from there to where the breaker and control relay is located is
15 feet. From the breaker I have to go back down to the bottom of the
boat and gradually up to the bow where the windlass is located. :-(

I wonder if it is possible to run the chain from the bow through the
cabin and mount the windlass at the battery? Just Kidding! :-)

Don

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:52:31 -0400, "Glenn Ashmore"
wrote:

Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the
windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage
drop of only 2%.

With 50 amps on a 72' run #4 is the absolute minimum size you should use.
Even then including the windlass leads you will be close to 10% voltage
drop. Using #8 you would loose more than 20%.

How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat?

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Sorry, but this option is not possible with our configuration.

Don

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:10:54 GMT, "Dennis Pogson"
wrote:

Don Mahony wrote:
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

We got round this by using the engine starter battery and positioning it so
that it was as close to the windlass as possible (up forward) but still had
enough power to operate the starter. Easy on a 50-footer, but I don't know
about your 27-footer (storage space for the battery).

Windlass Wiring Question
 

I was considering this option as the price is a lot lower than marine
grade and my son is in the car sudio business. Have you or anyone else
actually used this wire in this application?

Don

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:54:38 -0400, Larry wrote:

Don Mahony wrote in
:

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.



Precisely why the wire is #4 for the long run. #10 is fine for very short
distances, like inside the windlass.

Shhh....don't tell anyone I told you this....#4 wire from the car stereo
shop, or even #2, is LOTS cheaper and works just great!

400% profit doesn't make it work better....(c;

Also try welding cables, which come in these smaller sizes #2 and #4.

Tell your yachtie friends you only used the most expensive "marine grade"
wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on
the dock.

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Don Mahony wrote:
I was considering this option as the price is a lot lower than marine
grade and my son is in the car sudio business. Have you or anyone else
actually used this wire in this application?

Don

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:54:38 -0400, Larry wrote:

Don Mahony wrote in
:

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.


Precisely why the wire is #4 for the long run. #10 is fine for very short
distances, like inside the windlass.

Shhh....don't tell anyone I told you this....#4 wire from the car stereo
shop, or even #2, is LOTS cheaper and works just great!

400% profit doesn't make it work better....(c;

Also try welding cables, which come in these smaller sizes #2 and #4.

Tell your yachtie friends you only used the most expensive "marine grade"
wire from the finest chandlers on the planet....so they don't snub you on
the dock.

As conductors, marine grade and
non-marine grade wires are generally
indistinguishable. Some of the
differences are temperature rating,
flexibility (i.e., number of strands),
type of insulation (e.g., imperviousness
to chemicals such as gasoline and diesel
fuels), and most importantly, tin
plating. Marine wire is tin plated
because it is widely thought that it is
less corrosive in a marine environment
than unplated copper wire.

I have not yet encountered a judgment
that unplated wire is better. You might
want to do a search on Google Groups on
the subject. The issue has been
discussed before.

Can't say anything about speaker cable,
but I believe some automotive cables are
tin plated. They still don't match
marine wire specs but some boaters have
been satisfied with them.

Chuck

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Windlass Wiring Question
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Wire size is a function of amp load and distance. The #10 leads on the
windlass are only about 2' long so they can carry 50 amps with a voltage
drop of only 2%.

With 50 amps on a 72' run #4 is the absolute minimum size you should use.
Even then including the windlass leads you will be close to 10% voltage
drop. Using #8 you would loose more than 20%.

How are you routing the wire to use up 72' on a 27' boat?


It may be useful to put some reference
points into the analysis.

With a 20% reduction in voltage, a DC
motor would probably see a 20% reduction
in torque, a 20% reduction in rotational
speed, and a 44% reduction in power.

If the expected load is still met with
these reductions, there should be no
problem. The motor will not be damaged
by running at a 20% reduction in
voltage, but the wires may not be too happy.

It is also worth keeping in mind that 50
amperes is only going to be drawn when
the motor is producing its maximum power
output. This should be a relatively
short-duration situation, particularly
since must of us use swells to break an
anchor loose rather than windlasses.

Just stirring the coals.

Chuck

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Windlass Wiring Question
 

Larry wrote:
Don Mahony wrote in
:

Have you or anyone else
actually used this wire in this application?


Shhhh! Geez, don't tell 'em! I'll never hear the end of it!





......er, ah......well, yes.......



Radio Shack has the nicest #8 "speaker wire", a parallel pair giant
zipcord of clear plastic (so you can SEE if the damned conductors inside
are turning GREEN from the water intrusion eating them or not) with
finely stranded, very flexible conductors I've never been able to break
by flexing. $1/foot out of the box at the Shack....One of the conductors
has a red line down one of the conductors. That one's positive, here.


Shhhh....after replacing the "marine grade" cables for the 2nd time going
to the bilge pumps, I used this bigger wire because it was so cheap and I
was in a hurry. Sealed the ends, including the ring terminals with a
little blob of grease to keep the bilge humidity out. The conductors
inside the clear plastic still look NEW!....(c;


Shhh....my whole STEPVAN is rewired with car stereo speaker wire, even
the diesel starter cable! That stiff battery cable crap breaks the #14
solid strands after a while...but not car stereo cable you can fold in
half with no damage. Famous last words, "It'll crank a truck!"...(c;

If it'll conduct 10KW of bass audio at 8 ohms...it'll run the windlass!


You can get genuine marine battery cable
with UL, USCG, ABYC, etc. compliances
for $1.48/foot he

http://stores.channeladvisor.com/gen...GIM-WUL4RD-/FT
Genuinedealz.com - The Internet Bazaar
GIM-WUL4RD-/FT: 4 AWG Marine Tinned
Battery Cable Boat Wire RED /ft

If you're going to go with #8 duplex,
that's $1.45/foot.

I've never dealt with them so caveat emptor.

Chuck

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Windlass Wiring Question
 

Thanks Chuck.

This looks like a good deal to check out.

Don



On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:32:13 -0400, chuck wrote:

Larry wrote:
Don Mahony wrote in
:

Have you or anyone else
actually used this wire in this application?


Shhhh! Geez, don't tell 'em! I'll never hear the end of it!





......er, ah......well, yes.......



Radio Shack has the nicest #8 "speaker wire", a parallel pair giant
zipcord of clear plastic (so you can SEE if the damned conductors inside
are turning GREEN from the water intrusion eating them or not) with
finely stranded, very flexible conductors I've never been able to break
by flexing. $1/foot out of the box at the Shack....One of the conductors
has a red line down one of the conductors. That one's positive, here.


Shhhh....after replacing the "marine grade" cables for the 2nd time going
to the bilge pumps, I used this bigger wire because it was so cheap and I
was in a hurry. Sealed the ends, including the ring terminals with a
little blob of grease to keep the bilge humidity out. The conductors
inside the clear plastic still look NEW!....(c;


Shhh....my whole STEPVAN is rewired with car stereo speaker wire, even
the diesel starter cable! That stiff battery cable crap breaks the #14
solid strands after a while...but not car stereo cable you can fold in
half with no damage. Famous last words, "It'll crank a truck!"...(c;

If it'll conduct 10KW of bass audio at 8 ohms...it'll run the windlass!


You can get genuine marine battery cable
with UL, USCG, ABYC, etc. compliances
for $1.48/foot he

http://stores.channeladvisor.com/gen...GIM-WUL4RD-/FT
Genuinedealz.com - The Internet Bazaar
GIM-WUL4RD-/FT: 4 AWG Marine Tinned
Battery Cable Boat Wire RED /ft

If you're going to go with #8 duplex,
that's $1.45/foot.

I've never dealt with them so caveat emptor.

Chuck

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Windlass Wiring Question
 

Don Mahony wrote:
The batteries are on the port side down in the engine compartment. To
come from there to where the breaker and control relay is located is
15 feet. From the breaker I have to go back down to the bottom of the
boat and gradually up to the bow where the windlass is located. :-(

Have you thought about running just a relay control cable between the
control panel and the windlass power cable near the battery? So you'd
have the controls up and the actual relay would be down there in the
path of the windlass power cable. The relay control cables would carry a
current of under one amp, so they can be something like 18 AWG. But in
this case you should have a circuit breaker "down there" for the
windlass as it bypasses the circuit breaker you mentioned. Maybe this
arrangement is not worth the trouble.

Btw, there's a nice voltage drop calculator for figuring out what cable
size to use at http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , below the
cable size table.

Tapio

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Tapio Sokura wrote in news:nTqmg.7846$9l4.4042
@reader1.news.jippii.net:

Have you thought about running just a relay control cable between the
control panel and the windlass power cable near the battery? So you'd
have the controls up and the actual relay would be down there in the
path of the windlass power cable. The relay control cables would carry
a
current of under one amp, so they can be something like 18 AWG. But in
this case you should have a circuit breaker "down there" for the
windlass as it bypasses the circuit breaker you mentioned. Maybe this
arrangement is not worth the trouble.


I wholeheartedly agree with Tapio. You can buy 12V contactors, starter
solenoids from any auto parts store. They are completely sealed and
explosion proof as they are used in engine compartments of Ford
Exploders. S/V Lionheart uses one, rated at 200A I think, for the master
electronics power bus contactor. A continuous-duty contactor switches
off a separate power bus that all our electronics is connected to, except
the emergency secondary Icom M59 VHF, because my captain can't remember
to shut everything down. Now he doesn't have to, just push in the push-
pull switch next to the big red light staring him in the face. That
works great!

"Lionheart" had electric roller furling for its headsail when it was new,
but the sea, of course, soon consumed the furler in the spray. Up in the
portside cabinet in the V-berth were 3 contactors like this hooked to a
12V bus back to the main breaker panel. Her anchor winch only went one
way. You released the clutch to pay out the all-chain rode. During
taking it apart for maintenance, I noticed the local footswitch, SPST,
had extra wires to the drive motor that went nowhere. Experimenting with
them, I found the motor had forward and reverse windings! So, I wired
the motor to the furler's existing contactors, and left the original one-
way up switch on the winch's case hooked up, too. Now, you can pay out
more rode or wind it in by moving the old furler's control switch on-off-
on back in the center cockpit (half naked in the middle of the night when
a storm unexpectedly rears its ugly head, for instance...(c;) No more
clamoring around in the dark in your underwear cursing the clutch release
toggle that's stuck because of the rode's pressure jerking on it in the
waves. Just press the button...(c;

Don't route the windlass' heavy cable to your control point. Those
starter contactors are all sealed and will last your lifetime doing it
remotely with a tiny switch switching the coils.

Windlass Wiring Question
 

On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:40:55 -0400, Larry wrote:

Now, you can pay out
more rode or wind it in by moving the old furler's control switch on-off-
on back in the center cockpit (half naked in the middle of the night when
a storm unexpectedly rears its ugly head, for instance.

That's convenient for sure, but you should *really* use a hook line on
the anchor chain to off load the strain on the windlass when anchored.
The windlass bearings and seals are not designed to withstand cyclic
and/or shock loads, and will fail prematurely if exposed to that kind
of wear and tear.

Don't ask me how I know. :-)

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

That's convenient for sure, but you should *really* use a hook line on
the anchor chain to off load the strain on the windlass when anchored.
The windlass bearings and seals are not designed to withstand cyclic
and/or shock loads, and will fail prematurely if exposed to that kind
of wear and tear.

You're absolutely right, of course. It depends on the anchorage. If it's
just tide flow up a creek, naw. This anchor windlass is a monster on the
Amel. I think it could tow the boat out of the mud if there were something
to hook the chain to..


Don't ask me how I know. :-)


Everyone here has experiences you'll never hear a word about....(c;

Windlass Wiring Question
 

Don Mahony wrote:
I am installing a Lewmar Horizon 600/900 horizontal windlass on a 27
foot power boat. The users manual says to use #4 AWG marine grade wire
from the battery to the solenoid to the breaker to the windlass and
back to the battery. The wire leads on the windlass are #10 AWG.

I know the concern here is with voltage drop to the motor but the cost
of the #4 wire is huge. Rather than following the general guidlines in
the manual does anyone have a better way of calculating exactly what
gauge wire would be needed for this installation?

The total run from the battery to the windlass and return is 72 feet.

Don

Don,

The #4 sounds like over kill, and you wire run is not back and forth,
it's from point A to point B. My old boat was 27 feet, my power winch
called for #6, much cheaper than #4. It worked perfect, that winch is
being used occasionally, not constantly. If it were being used for
extended periods of time the larger wire would be justified.

Windlass Wiring Question
 

"Capt John" wrote

The #4 sounds like over kill, and you wire run is not back and forth,
it's from point A to point B. My old boat was 27 feet, my power winch
called for #6, much cheaper than #4. It worked perfect, that winch is
being used occasionally, not constantly. If it were being used for
extended periods of time the larger wire would be justified.

I beg to differ. When calculating wire size from amperage it is ALWAYS the
total run out and back to the source to get the total resistance.

A 600 watt windlass is going to draw 50 amps at full rated load. #4 wire
has a resistance of .000253 ohms/foot so 72' will have a resistance of
about .01822 ohms. By Ohms law A*R=V so 50*.01822 = .93 volt. or about 8%
loss. About the most you want to loose.

#6 has a resistance of .000403ohms/foot or .029 ohms over 72' which will
drop the voltage by about 1.5 volts. Net result is you don't get all the
power that the winch needs and the motor will overheat and possibly burn out
a winding.

The only way to use smaller wire is to use less of it. Cut the run to 30'
out and back and you can use #6. Best thing to do is mount the solenoid
right by the windlass and run the wire directly from the battery to the
solenoid. Then put the control switch where ever you want. The control
lines don't carry much current.


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com