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Wet-n-Wild Bill
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

Planning to install a 3000watt inverter (not inverter/charger) on a boat
with twin outboards. The House batteries are maxed out with the
electronics. I thinking of installing a dedicated battery bank for the
inverter or utilize one of the starting batteries on the outboard. What do
you think

Bill


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posted to rec.boats.electronics
Larry
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

"Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in
m:

Planning to install a 3000watt inverter (not inverter/charger) on a
boat with twin outboards. The House batteries are maxed out with the
electronics. I thinking of installing a dedicated battery bank for
the inverter or utilize one of the starting batteries on the outboard.
What do you think

Bill




Let's do a little arithmetic, first....

3000 watts divided by 12V = 250 amps, if the inverter were 100%
efficient, which it's not. How long do you think those house batteries
can provide 250 amps? 5 minutes? 1 minute? Hmm...it's a point.....

Now, how much is the combined DC output current of the two outboard gas
hogs hangin' off the back? 30A? 20? Some of them put out 7 or 12A to
recharge their starting batteries, but are NOT power sources at all to
save costs and to make that case as small as the customers demand it be.
Obviously, we got no 250 amps to power the inverter when the motor is
running...not at all.

Ok, so the house batteries are out....the outboard powering it just won't
happen...let's say we're going to put in a separate bank to run it and
recharge it when we get back to the dock. Those big, honkin' golf cart
batteries, the big tall ones, 6V, two in series to get 12V, they weigh a
ton, are 330AH at a 20A rate. At a 250A rate, they're only 150AH, maybe
even less. The chemical reaction to make electrons, unfortunately, takes
a lot of time. It's slow. So, if we're going to pull hard on them, and
250A is VERY hard, we'll say, just for argument and flaming on usenet,
150AH. You can use about that much, if they don't melt down at this
awful current level. So, 150AH divided by 250A = 6/10th of an hour at
full power...36 minutes...if the inverter were 100% efficient, which it's
not.

As you can see, this isn't going to happen unless we find room for some
6000AH submarine batteries. Each 2V cell weighs nearly a ton. We need 6
of them in series for 12V. Can we float it? They're 6' tall. Can we
get around 6 of them to get to the head if we mount them in the main
cabin?

What brand of generator was that you were thinking about??.....(c;
Diesel is best, but outboards use gas so we're probably stuck with gas.

I used to have a tagline that said:
"Nothing is funnier than watching a boater with a new 4KW inverter
carrying his electric heater down the dock with a big smile on his face."

Smoke came pouring out of this guy's boat at the dock, one day. Everyone
came rushing with their fire extinguishers to his aid, as it was a
Saturday morning. After the smoke cleared, the curious got looking at
what happened. He had a new inverter, 4KW I think it was. Big money!
He'd installed it, the best he could, and had plugged in a toaster (800
watts) and his coffee pot (1200 watts) to it. It was only half its
capacity, right? Should run great! Unfortunately, for him, it was
pulling 170+ amps off his big house batteries......through #8 red wires
he got from the marine store....which melted and caught the cheap plastic
insulation on fire....

Noone did any arithmetic before he installed it, obviously....(c;

Sure glad he wasn't anchored out in some cove by himself. He would have
jumped overboard as he did on the dock, and probably would have drown in
panic.

What brand of generator was that you were thinking about??.....(c;

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posted to rec.boats.electronics
Dennis Pogson
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

Wet-n-Wild Bill wrote:
Planning to install a 3000watt inverter (not inverter/charger) on a
boat with twin outboards. The House batteries are maxed out with the
electronics. I thinking of installing a dedicated battery bank for
the inverter or utilize one of the starting batteries on the
outboard. What do you think

Bill


I would have divided the 3000watts (AC) by 120 Volts (AC), not 12 volts.

That size of inverter at 12 volts will need a nominal 25amps when drawing
max power. Add on say 15% for loss on conversion and you would be looking at
near enough 30amps.

Personally, for that sort of current draw I would be looking for about
500A/H batteries and massive section cabling dependant on how close to the
inverter you can locate the batteries.

You need to properly work out the likely maximum draw before working the
figures for required battery power.

Deep-cycle truck batteries are worth a look. Don't buy starter batteries for
this type of application.


Dennis.


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Lynn Coffelt
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!


"Dennis Pogson"

(big snip here)
I would have divided the 3000watts (AC) by 120 Volts (AC), not 12 volts.

That size of inverter at 12 volts will need a nominal 25amps when drawing
max power. Add on say 15% for loss on conversion and you would be looking

at
near enough 30amps.

Personally, for that sort of current draw I would be looking for about
500A/H batteries and massive section cabling dependant on how close to the
inverter you can locate the batteries.


Dennis, Dennis, Dennis!
Please rethink your formula. We all make slight tactical errors. You
may not believe this, but even I have made mistakes!
Old Chief Lynn


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posted to rec.boats.electronics
Wet-n-Wild Bill
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

I do understand the math P=IE! Another concern is recharging the battery
bank for the Inverter. I heard that my outboards have dual 70 Amp alternator
outputs, if so i should be able to utilize the second output for the
inverter battery bank?

My wire size requirement for a 3000w inverter is 4/0 with a 450amp fuse.
The distance of the outboards to the I-Battery Bank will be about 15-20
feet. I'm not sure what the size wire for the alternator output possible 12
ga. Should i increase the size of the wire for this run?

IF i donot have a dual outputs on the alternators what other options would i
have to re-charge the batteries underway?

Bill


"John Weston" wrote in message
. ..
Dennis Pogson, in article 5fbYf.4574$ic1.1629@newsfe5-
win.ntli.net, says...

I would have divided the 3000watts (AC) by 120 Volts (AC), not 12 volts.

That size of inverter at 12 volts will need a nominal 25amps when drawing
max power. Add on say 15% for loss on conversion and you would be looking
at
near enough 30amps.

Personally, for that sort of current draw I would be looking for about
500A/H batteries and massive section cabling dependant on how close to the
inverter you can locate the batteries.

You need to properly work out the likely maximum draw before working the
figures for required battery power.

Deep-cycle truck batteries are worth a look. Don't buy starter batteries
for
this type of application.


Dennis. Watts = Volts x Amps

Watts is power so you need the same power out as into the
inverter plus any losses in the inverters circuits. You can't
get more power out than you put in.

So 3000W = 12V x 250A or 120V x 25A I make it you'll need
250A (plus) at 12V into the inverter to get 3000W out

--
John





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posted to rec.boats.electronics
Bruce in Alaska
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

In article ,
"Dennis Pogson" wrote:

Wet-n-Wild Bill wrote:
Planning to install a 3000watt inverter (not inverter/charger) on a
boat with twin outboards. The House batteries are maxed out with the
electronics. I thinking of installing a dedicated battery bank for
the inverter or utilize one of the starting batteries on the
outboard. What do you think

Bill


I would have divided the 3000watts (AC) by 120 Volts (AC), not 12 volts.

That size of inverter at 12 volts will need a nominal 25amps when drawing
max power. Add on say 15% for loss on conversion and you would be looking at
near enough 30amps.

Personally, for that sort of current draw I would be looking for about
500A/H batteries and massive section cabling dependant on how close to the
inverter you can locate the batteries.

You need to properly work out the likely maximum draw before working the
figures for required battery power.

Deep-cycle truck batteries are worth a look. Don't buy starter batteries for
this type of application.


Dennis.



Dennis, you need to go back and check your MATH....3Kw from 12Vdc
requires 250 AMPs, that is not including any efficency factors....
250 Amps is Welding Cable REQUIRED for battery to Inverter connections.
3Kw means you need BIG batteries with lots of AMP/Hour capacity
if your going to run much.......

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @
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Electricky Dicky
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 00:49:24 -0700, "Wet-n-Wild Bill"
wrote:

Planning to install a 3000watt inverter (not inverter/charger) on a boat
with twin outboards. The House batteries are maxed out with the
electronics. I thinking of installing a dedicated battery bank for the
inverter or utilize one of the starting batteries on the outboard. What do
you think

Bill

Personally I think that you should sit down and analyse what you need
an inverter for? Do you really, really need 3kw.
3000w is 300A after efficiency. a 300A load is 573A Peukert corrected
and will flatten a 450AH bank in .78hrs..
Recharging time with your setup ..... enjoy the boating!
First asses your maximum needs then do the calcs.
Pound to a penny (Sorry Dollar to a doughnut) that you need XXXWatts
for short periods of time. Work out the times and the loads. Do not
even contemplate Air Con, moving to England would be cheaper and
easier!!!!

Richard

Nb "Pound Eater" Parkend G+S UK
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Rusty
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

Bill,

3000 watts is a lot of of AC power for a small to medium sized boat. Most of
the time you will be using only a fraction of the output. But, that doesn't
mean you can undersize the wires. 4/0 cable should be fine. I'm using 4/0
cable for my 4Kw inverter/charger but it's 24 volt on the DC side so the
current is half that of a 12 volt unit.

If the alternator in your outboard is indeed a 70 amp model, the 12 gauge
wire is way undersized. For the distance you listed you should use #1 AWG
for the positive and negative cables between the alternator and battery. You
should fuse the positive wire near the battery. I would suggest an 80 amp
ANL fuse and block. If you use the proper sized wire you won't need a fuse
at the alternator.

Rusty

"Wet-n-Wild Bill" wrote in message
m...
I do understand the math P=IE! Another concern is recharging the battery
bank for the Inverter. I heard that my outboards have dual 70 Amp
alternator outputs, if so i should be able to utilize the second output for
the inverter battery bank?

My wire size requirement for a 3000w inverter is 4/0 with a 450amp fuse.
The distance of the outboards to the I-Battery Bank will be about 15-20
feet. I'm not sure what the size wire for the alternator output possible
12 ga. Should i increase the size of the wire for this run?

IF i donot have a dual outputs on the alternators what other options would
i have to re-charge the batteries underway?

Bill



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posted to rec.boats.electronics
b393capt
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

Bill,

What are you going to use that inverter power for? Big difference if
your trying to drive a 2000watt microwave for 10 minutes once a day,
vs. some other use.

The 2000watt inverter option on my Beneteau 393 is powered by (2)
200Amp Hr Deep Cycle 12V, total 400AmpHr. I figure if I run the
Microwave for just 6 minutes, I barely have enough juice for the rest
of my energy budget for the day. That's assuming I can charge the
whole thing each day from dock power. Therefore, I am thinking of
removing the microwave and turning that area into storage.

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Dennis Pogson
 
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Default Inverters DC to AC Battery help!

John Weston wrote:
Dennis Pogson, in article 5fbYf.4574$ic1.1629@newsfe5-
win.ntli.net, says...

I would have divided the 3000watts (AC) by 120 Volts (AC), not 12
volts.

That size of inverter at 12 volts will need a nominal 25amps when
drawing max power. Add on say 15% for loss on conversion and you
would be looking at near enough 30amps.

Personally, for that sort of current draw I would be looking for
about 500A/H batteries and massive section cabling dependant on how
close to the inverter you can locate the batteries.

You need to properly work out the likely maximum draw before working
the figures for required battery power.

Deep-cycle truck batteries are worth a look. Don't buy starter
batteries for this type of application.


Dennis. Watts = Volts x Amps

Watts is power so you need the same power out as into the
inverter plus any losses in the inverters circuits. You can't
get more power out than you put in.

So 3000W = 12V x 250A or 120V x 25A I make it you'll need
250A (plus) at 12V into the inverter to get 3000W out


Does that mean that the 300-watt inverter I use to (occasionally) power 2
laptops is taking 25 amps out of my batteries? Must check that cigar-lighter
fuse!


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