|
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a 1/2/Both at the engine. The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated. I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded. The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring. Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to a switch? -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in
news:aNbJf.163191$WH.30518@dukeread01: Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to a switch? Nope....It's grounded to the case of the alternator. Sorry.... BTW, if you switch off the alternator's DC connection it may NOT turn off the alternator, which may run on its own starting magnetism, anyway. Lionheart has two 1-2-BOTH switches. The left switch switches the two big L-16 bank house batteries, but does NOT switch the house 180A alternator, which is separately connected directly to the batteries by a huge diode isolator so the alternator cannot be connected to the house (and of course a zillion dollars in electronics) without being connected to the batteries. The second switch is the battery switch for the Perkins 4-108 starter. Position 2 connects the Perkins starter to its independent starting battery. Position 1 has a very short jumper that connects the house battery switch common to the starting switch position 1, so I can start the engine off either house battery bank...or both house battery banks...or the normally-connected starting battery...or everything-all- connected-in-parallel-if-we-have-to.... The starting system's little 80A alternator is connected directly to the starting battery, but should the house monster alternator fail, flipping the battery switches to everything-all-connected-in-parallel-if-we-have- to will charge all the banks from the 80A starting alternator, anyways. Just set both battery switches to "BOTH" and it'll all charge together....redundantly...(c; Battery switches are located on the lip of the engine compartment cover in the center cockpit of the Amel Sharki ketch, keeping all these heavy cables really short. Power-R-Us.... |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Bin the changeover switches and diodes and get a Smartbank. Then any
number of charging devices can run at the same time. http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/diodes2.html |
Hi Glen;
Of course if you add a relay you can switch just about anything. You could open the yanmar and redirect either of the field wires through the relay. Warranties are for wusses anyway. I would connect both alternators directly to their battery / battery banks. I realize most authorities don’t like that. So; Presumably if your start battery is switched off, the engine can’t be started and your Yanmar is therefore safe without field coil intervention. The big alternator is more of a problem; being [I presume] battery sensed, if it’s run while disconnected from the battery it will destroy itself. I just had a rotor melt down from that myself... luckily where I am right now I could get it rewound [right on spec too] for $15. Why not switch them the other way; Yanmar on the simple switch [since it won’t start when off] and use the clever switch with field cutout on the house side where you can set it up to protect the Leece-Nevile. If connected to “Both”, your house battery bank will still start the engine. Anyway, just wanted to say to be sure you wire you alternators so they can’t power up when disconnected. Regards, Mark Holden My adjustable alternator regulator; www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl\voltage_regulator.htm |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
While I will go along with what that site says about diodes, the article on
charge controllers lost credibility with me very quickly. First of all modern stock alternators are not set at 14.4V as he contends. My brother's new gas guzzling SUV is set at 13.8V as is my wife's 2006 Honda. He also contends that modern batteries do not require 3 stage regulators for the most efficient charging. Virtually every deep cycle battery maker recommends 3 stage charging. Regardless diodes would not apply to my situation running separate systems for house and start banks. The two systems are isolated except for the ground and the 1/2/both switch which will only be used for emergency starts. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com wrote in message ups.com... Bin the changeover switches and diodes and get a Smartbank. Then any number of charging devices can run at the same time. http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/diodes2.html |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Glenn, I seem to have missed the reason you want to use a different
regulator on the Yanmar alternator. Are you having problems with the stock regulator/battery combination? If you use the staring battery only for starting, it should last a very long time with the stock regulator. Except for being able to perhaps control the float voltage, a multi-stage regulator is not likely to add much life or reliability to your starting battery. The multi-stage regulator's real benefit is that it can restore a lot of energy more quickly than the stock regulator. That is never a requirement for a starting battery in normal use since the starting function draws very little energy from the battery. It ought to stay at very close to full charge under normal running conditions. Unfortunately, the same cannot usually be said for house batteries that are often discharged to 50% or less of capacity. Hundreds of millions of starting batteries live very happily with stock regulators in cars, trucks, buses, boats, etc. Chuck Glenn Ashmore wrote: Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a 1/2/Both at the engine. The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated. I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded. The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring. Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to a switch? |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Glenn,
I too have two alternators, stock that I use for the starter battery and a large LN for the house battery. But in my configuration I do not use any 1/2/all switches on the alternator feeds. Just keep it simple: The stock alt goes to the Starter battery, and the LN goes to the house battery... Where I do use master switches is in the feeds to the sub-pannels. On the House DC Sub Pannel I have an on/off switch to the House battery. This is a master disconnect and does tie into the LN field ckt. For the Nav sub DC pannel I use an A/B/All switch so I can select to feed it from the house battery (Normal), or put it over to the Starter battery (backup). Wired this way it also give me a way to connect the two systems together if needed (very unusual situation). I do not have a cut-off switch on the starter batter. I did it this way to keep the two systems 100% Issolated and simple. Buy putting the A/B switch on the DC Sub Pannel feeds (instead of the alternator outputs) I can gain reliability without making the charging system complex. -al- On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:53:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" wrote: Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a 1/2/Both at the engine. The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated. I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded. The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring. Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to a switch? |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
The problem I have with your set up is that I have a surveyor coming by
every 6 months during construction and reporting back to my insurance company. Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I will get a nasty letter. I have found two solutions though. The stock Hitachi/Yanmar alternator is an N type and the negative side of the regulator comes out of the case on a terminal that is tied to the ground terminal. The other is that banks under 800 CCA don't have to be isolated. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Al Thomason" wrote in message ... Glenn, I too have two alternators, stock that I use for the starter battery and a large LN for the house battery. But in my configuration I do not use any 1/2/all switches on the alternator feeds. Just keep it simple: The stock alt goes to the Starter battery, and the LN goes to the house battery... Where I do use master switches is in the feeds to the sub-pannels. On the House DC Sub Pannel I have an on/off switch to the House battery. This is a master disconnect and does tie into the LN field ckt. For the Nav sub DC pannel I use an A/B/All switch so I can select to feed it from the house battery (Normal), or put it over to the Starter battery (backup). Wired this way it also give me a way to connect the two systems together if needed (very unusual situation). I do not have a cut-off switch on the starter batter. I did it this way to keep the two systems 100% Issolated and simple. Buy putting the A/B switch on the DC Sub Pannel feeds (instead of the alternator outputs) I can gain reliability without making the charging system complex. -al- On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:53:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" wrote: Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a 1/2/Both at the engine. The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated. I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded. The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring. Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to a switch? |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a
master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the 'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to the House Battery with separate wiring) On the Starter Battery I have no switch on it, so no need to worry about the field on the stock motor alt. 11.7.1.2.1. calls out that no isolation switch is needed for batteries under 800 CCA. Note also that exception 2B allows 'battery Charging equipment' to be directly connected to the batteries, even those over 800 CCA. Note also that exception 2B allows for direct connect of the bilge pumps. So, all is OK with ABYC specs. I do feed the LN field through the House Battery master switch. That is easy as I have converted it to an external regulator (as you said you did also). But in practice I never touch this master switch. It truly is there only for emergency and maintenance use. When leaving the boat I turn things off by the Sub Panels. BTW: These LN alternators are tuff things... Real 'large frame', can get them for around $250 or so on eBay, and my alt puts out 145A at idle (Hot and measured). And if you need more current, just run two in parallel Also, have really enjoyed watching your progress and your web site. -al- On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:58:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" wrote: SNIP Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I will get a nasty letter. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Err,
Brain Fade.. Starter battery is larger then 800 CCA (it is an 8D), but exception 2C allows the motor alternator to be directly connected. There is nothing else connected to the starter batter (only motor operation and starter). I do feed one side of the A/B/All 'nav' sub-pannel to the starter battery, but that is through a switch so again am OK there as well. -al- On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:26:31 -0800, Al Thomason wrote: I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the 'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to the House Battery with separate wiring) On the Starter Battery I have no switch on it, so no need to worry about the field on the stock motor alt. 11.7.1.2.1. calls out that no isolation switch is needed for batteries under 800 CCA. Note also that exception 2C allows 'battery Charging equipment' to be directly connected to the batteries, even those over 800 CCA. Note also that exception 2B allows for direct connect of the bilge pumps. So, all is OK with ABYC specs. I do feed the LN field through the House Battery master switch. That is easy as I have converted it to an external regulator (as you said you did also). But in practice I never touch this master switch. It truly is there only for emergency and maintenance use. When leaving the boat I turn things off by the Sub Panels. BTW: These LN alternators are tuff things... Real 'large frame', can get them for around $250 or so on eBay, and my alt puts out 145A at idle (Hot and measured). And if you need more current, just run two in parallel Also, have really enjoyed watching your progress and your web site. -al- On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:58:36 -0500, "Glenn Ashmore" wrote: SNIP Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I will get a nasty letter. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Al Thomason wrote in
: I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the 'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to the House Battery with separate wiring) Even moving the master switch, inadvertently or not, will guarantee the running alternator will blow every piece of electronics running on the now- open-circuited alternator(s) permanently connected to them. Even a little terminal corrosion on the switch will make it happen, bigtime.... Why don't people connect the alternator through a suitable fuse, directly to the battery, and switch only the field or external regulator power with the engine switch, like it's supposed to be, so this doesn't happen and cause some very expensive service???.... If the alternator shorts a diode, it blows the alternator fuse...no harm done. How many of you connected to the master switch like this have an alternator fused at 50% over its generating capacity?....Fess up! |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Good point. I will have to think about that.... Reason I did it this
way was to allow for the bat switch to cut off all power, usefull when I need to work around the alternator as well as the DC generator. But I like your point. -al- |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 10:35:27 -0500, Larry wrote:
He's correct. No car or truck on the street has some $4000 supercharger computerized charging system sold to affluent yachties at amazing profits. They all seem to function just fine for years and years. There is a BIG difference between the charging requirements of a car versus a boat. When things are working normally on a car the battery never gets deep cycled. The only charging that takes place is for the relatively small amount of power drawn during engine cranking. After that the alternator supplies all of the power needed and the battery just floats across the output, usually at about 13.8 volts. On a boat however, the house bank routinely gets deeply discharged, often to as low as 50% of capacity. To replace that amount of power as quickly as possible, 3 stage charging is required. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Wayne.B wrote:
There is a BIG difference between the charging requirements of a car versus a boat. When things are working normally on a car the battery never gets deep cycled. The only charging that takes place is for the relatively small amount of power drawn during engine cranking. After that the alternator supplies all of the power needed and the battery just floats across the output, usually at about 13.8 volts. On a boat however, the house bank routinely gets deeply discharged, often to as low as 50% of capacity. To replace that amount of power as quickly as possible, 3 stage charging is required. i don't know what use a charge controller is if you have a voltage regulator, such as on an alternator. a charge controller, at least in a solar panel install, is just there to regulate voltage and current, because solar panels can put out upwards to 16 to 17 volts on a cool clear day and that would be high enough to damage your batteries over time. so with solar panels the charge controller's job is to make the solar panel work like an alternator, supplying the voltage and amps needed to properly recharge the batteries. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
purple_stars wrote:
Wayne.B wrote: There is a BIG difference between the charging requirements of a car versus a boat. When things are working normally on a car the battery never gets deep cycled. The only charging that takes place is for the relatively small amount of power drawn during engine cranking. After that the alternator supplies all of the power needed and the battery just floats across the output, usually at about 13.8 volts. On a boat however, the house bank routinely gets deeply discharged, often to as low as 50% of capacity. To replace that amount of power as quickly as possible, 3 stage charging is required. i don't know what use a charge controller is if you have a voltage regulator, such as on an alternator. a charge controller, at least in a solar panel install, is just there to regulate voltage and current, because solar panels can put out upwards to 16 to 17 volts on a cool clear day and that would be high enough to damage your batteries over time. so with solar panels the charge controller's job is to make the solar panel work like an alternator, supplying the voltage and amps needed to properly recharge the batteries. Maybe you need to read regulators 101. http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=caseyd0081 krj |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
Wayne.B wrote in
: On a boat however, the house bank routinely gets deeply discharged, often to as low as 50% of capacity. To replace that amount of power as quickly as possible, 3 stage charging is required. I'll take the bait..... In the yard out front is a Chevy-based diesel stepvan, made for you taxpayers by Union City Body in TN for the Air Force. When I bought it, I added two L-16H deep cycle beasts in a custom-made box in the driver's footwell, a useless space. The van is my electronics shop and has two 500W Tripplite inverters to run lighting, equipment, etc. It also has a 60A supply to two 400W bridged audio power amps I use in the DJ Biz where there is no available AC and we don't want the Honda 3000i genset noise. It gets deep cycled, regularly, and has for a couple of years. They're regular golf cart batteries, not some exotic $800 AGM. There are two AGMs in parallel the government installed to crank the 6.2L GM diesel V-8 up under the hood. One of them melted when the guaze shorted out and Batteries Plus replaced it with another one that didn't cost me much. Between the house batteries and the starting batteries is a 250A Guest ON-OFF switch that simply parallels all the battery banks for charging off the ordinary, everyday, 80A, Delco, internally-regulated alternator on the GM diesel beast. IF I have AC power, I charge them all, again in parallel, with the unregulated, simple 40A AC charger Cap'n Geoffrey gave me off the Amel when he installed an automatic Guest charger to replace it. The Amel charger is simply a tapped transformer, a 50A rectifier with a switch that selects "Low" "Medium or "High" on 115 or 230VAC, changing the tap arrangement for the various countries and guestimated loads. It has 3 stage charging! You start on HIGH then downshift, if you think about it, to MEDIUM or LOW when the gravity comes up...(c; You wouldn't want it, like he didn't, because it has no shutoff when the cells are charged. Those silly L-16Hs have just wonderful gravity readings and can run the whole DJ station, computers/monitors/preamps/processors/big power amps for just hours and hours......and have for years. And I don't have a $4000 charger to keep them that way. What nonsense. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
krj wrote in news:rlJKf.1275$u%.1221
@bignews1.bellsouth.net: sailnet.com From people who sold (past tense) expensive regulators and chargers....(c; |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
krj wrote:
[snip] Maybe you need to read regulators 101. http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=caseyd0081 krj that article is dumb. it sounds alarmist, like suddenly the world of batteries and voltage regulation has ran into a new problem that needs to be solved by 3 way chargers and PWM. they are making up a problem so that they can solve it. it reminds me of acid reflux disease ... something we used to call being a pig and eating too damn much then getting indigestion all the time. but this new acid reflux disease sure sells a lot of purple pills. simple fact is, batteries have been charging a long time without these battery chargers. period. and the batteries don't go bad unless you don't maintain them, that is, you let the electrolyte level get down on the plates and/or leave it there for a long time, discharged. then you get sulfate on the plates and it won't take a charge. but even that's not the end of the world since you can hook it up to a high current source and gas a lot of the sulfate off of the plates and "recondition" the batteries just by making it froth up vigorously. the article is insincere, it even has terms like "over-charging". what is that ? i mean really! your battery is made of plates of metal inside of an acid solution inside of a box. what exactly is getting over-charged ? what's going to happen ? the plates are going to suddenly stop being made out of lead ? the acid is going to suddenly stop being acidic ? the box is going to stop being a box ? i mean what is this "over-charging" anyway ? the worst thing that's going to happen is that you're going to create some hydrogen gas and have to put water in more often ... the hydrogen isn't a problem because a good install already has good ventilation. and as far as the vigorous broth you're making in the batteries by "over-charging" (at the extreme) ... that's a GOOD THING! why would you want to stop that ? if you've got power to waste, OVER-CHARGE and get rid of some of the sulfate on the plates already. and then in the article they turn right around .. right after talking about over-charging, and then say it's a good thing by giving it the name "equalization"!!!! i mean come on!!!! it's the same damn thing!!! lol. i mean what kind of snake oil is this when you say over-charging is a bad thing because it gasses off your electrolyte and then turn right around and say "equalization" is a good thing!!! it's the same thing!!!! lol. |
Battery switches, alternators and regulators?
purple_stars wrote:
krj wrote: [snip] Maybe you need to read regulators 101. http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=caseyd0081 krj that article is dumb. it sounds alarmist, like suddenly the world of batteries and voltage regulation has ran into a new problem that needs to be solved by 3 way chargers and PWM. they are making up a problem so that they can solve it. it reminds me of acid reflux disease ... something we used to call being a pig and eating too damn much then getting indigestion all the time. but this new acid reflux disease sure sells a lot of purple pills. simple fact is, batteries have been charging a long time without these battery chargers. period. and the batteries don't go bad unless you don't maintain them, that is, you let the electrolyte level get down on the plates and/or leave it there for a long time, discharged. then you get sulfate on the plates and it won't take a charge. but even that's not the end of the world since you can hook it up to a high current source and gas a lot of the sulfate off of the plates and "recondition" the batteries just by making it froth up vigorously. the article is insincere, it even has terms like "over-charging". what is that ? i mean really! your battery is made of plates of metal inside of an acid solution inside of a box. what exactly is getting over-charged ? what's going to happen ? the plates are going to suddenly stop being made out of lead ? the acid is going to suddenly stop being acidic ? the box is going to stop being a box ? i mean what is this "over-charging" anyway ? the worst thing that's going to happen is that you're going to create some hydrogen gas and have to put water in more often ... the hydrogen isn't a problem because a good install already has good ventilation. and as far as the vigorous broth you're making in the batteries by "over-charging" (at the extreme) ... that's a GOOD THING! why would you want to stop that ? if you've got power to waste, OVER-CHARGE and get rid of some of the sulfate on the plates already. and then in the article they turn right around .. right after talking about over-charging, and then say it's a good thing by giving it the name "equalization"!!!! i mean come on!!!! it's the same damn thing!!! lol. i mean what kind of snake oil is this when you say over-charging is a bad thing because it gasses off your electrolyte and then turn right around and say "equalization" is a good thing!!! it's the same thing!!!! lol. Yes, people, including me, have been charging batteries for years without a three stage regulator. A three stage regulator just makes the charging take less time. As for over charging, keeping the charge voltage at a high voltage, i.e. 14.4 causes the electrolite to boil off and require water replacement more frequently. krj |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:58 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com