|
Flow meter
Hi there.
Maybe some of you gurus have an inexpensive idear of how to make a flow meter that can measure the usage af gas to the engines. I don't really care if it is analog or digital, as long as i can built it myself :-) With kind regards, Franz ( Denmark) |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: Maybe some of you gurus have an inexpensive idear of how to make a flow meter that can measure the usage af gas to the engines. I don't really care if it is analog or digital, as long as i can built it myself :-) The medical profession has a clear plastic flowmeter that's about 3" in diameter with a red ball that the fluid running through it rotates around the tube. It's a positive flow meter in that the ball just fits the round tube and the tiniest flow of liquid shows up as a rotation of the ball. I have no idea where you'd get it, but I'm sure any nurse or hospital supply person could point you to the right company. It would be very simple to put a light on one side of this tube and a photocell on the other (OK, IR LED and photo IC is more complex and up-to- date). Every time the ball comes around the loop, it would cut the light so you could TIME the ball's rotation around the loop, which on the tube is calibrated in cc/hr or minute for the nurse to count. The time measured would be easily converted to litres/hour or gallons/minute for your display. The pulses could simply be fed to a serial port on a PC or notebook already in use with a simple program monitoring the port's data-in and using the PC's timer functions. How's that?....(c; Americans, a lazy, sloven lot to be sure, would use: http://www.asenashop.com/ivn/pr-0/9286.html or http://store.wmjmarine.com/s3fw022u1.html or http://www.consumersmarine.com/produ...l.cfm?i=380020 or http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/FLOSCAN/FLO1.htm They all run on a little wheel that rotates as the fuel pushes it around passing through it. A magnet senses the wheel's movement and converts each vane into a pulse for measurement... -- Larry |
"Larry" wrote in message ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: Maybe some of you gurus have an inexpensive idear of how to make a flow meter that can measure the usage af gas to the engines. I don't really care if it is analog or digital, as long as i can built it myself :-) The medical profession has a clear plastic flowmeter that's about 3" in diameter with a red ball that the fluid running through it rotates around the tube. It's a positive flow meter in that the ball just fits the round tube and the tiniest flow of liquid shows up as a rotation of the ball. I have no idea where you'd get it, but I'm sure any nurse or hospital supply person could point you to the right company. It would be very simple to put a light on one side of this tube and a photocell on the other (OK, IR LED and photo IC is more complex and up-to- date). Every time the ball comes around the loop, it would cut the light so you could TIME the ball's rotation around the loop, which on the tube is calibrated in cc/hr or minute for the nurse to count. The time measured would be easily converted to litres/hour or gallons/minute for your display. The pulses could simply be fed to a serial port on a PC or notebook already in use with a simple program monitoring the port's data-in and using the PC's timer functions. How's that?....(c; If you are talking about the Bel-Art flow indicator they are not really positive displacement. It takes a water flow of 50mL/minute (maybe 35 for diesel) before they start moving and they spin at different rates in the horizontal position than vertical. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
Hi Larry.
Actually i have found a flow measuring device, rather cheap too. But i should have pointed out that i was in search for the schematics for the read out device. So what i need is a schematic that i can make a digital or analog read out of the impulses from the flow sensor. And it would be nice if it was not Dependent on a notebook. Nice links, but 'damn' they are expensive :-) Wkr Franz "Larry" skrev i en meddelelse ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: Maybe some of you gurus have an inexpensive idear of how to make a flow meter that can measure the usage af gas to the engines. I don't really care if it is analog or digital, as long as i can built it myself :-) The medical profession has a clear plastic flowmeter that's about 3" in diameter with a red ball that the fluid running through it rotates around the tube. It's a positive flow meter in that the ball just fits the round tube and the tiniest flow of liquid shows up as a rotation of the ball. I have no idea where you'd get it, but I'm sure any nurse or hospital supply person could point you to the right company. It would be very simple to put a light on one side of this tube and a photocell on the other (OK, IR LED and photo IC is more complex and up-to- date). Every time the ball comes around the loop, it would cut the light so you could TIME the ball's rotation around the loop, which on the tube is calibrated in cc/hr or minute for the nurse to count. The time measured would be easily converted to litres/hour or gallons/minute for your display. The pulses could simply be fed to a serial port on a PC or notebook already in use with a simple program monitoring the port's data-in and using the PC's timer functions. How's that?....(c; Americans, a lazy, sloven lot to be sure, would use: http://www.asenashop.com/ivn/pr-0/9286.html or http://store.wmjmarine.com/s3fw022u1.html or http://www.consumersmarine.com/produ...l.cfm?i=380020 or http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/FLOSCAN/FLO1.htm They all run on a little wheel that rotates as the fuel pushes it around passing through it. A magnet senses the wheel's movement and converts each vane into a pulse for measurement... -- Larry |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: So what i need is a schematic that i can make a digital or analog read out of the impulses from the flow sensor. And it would be nice if it was not Dependent on a notebook. How about a cheap pulse counter? http://private.addcom.de/KeithWilson/Projects/imco.htm http://www.boondog.com/%5Ctutorials%5C8254%5C8254.htm Any simple analog tachometer circuit could easily be recalibrated to be used to count these pulses: http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/earlytach.html This NE555 common timer IC schematic would be ideal! http://www.electronics-tutorials.com...tachometer.htm You didn't say how big the pulses are coming from the device. This circuit converts any bigger-than-5V pulses to 5V with the zener on pin 2, If your pulses are smaller, simply add a transistor amp to make them bigger on the input where the points go. Take the scale out of the meter movement, paint it white and make a new scale in litres/hour with your boat's maximum fuel consumption about 90% of the scale. The 50K resistor and .1uF cap over the meter sets the timing. Fool with those values to make it read your slower pulses. You might want to add a big electrolytic cap right across the meter if the meter pulses in so slow an application, smoothing it out. The theory is on the page. -- Larry |
Heeeyyyy Larry.
If you ever come around on my edge of the universe, i will sure buy you a large beer. This is exactly what i was searching for, youre a genious. Wkr Franz "Larry" skrev i en meddelelse ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: So what i need is a schematic that i can make a digital or analog read out of the impulses from the flow sensor. And it would be nice if it was not Dependent on a notebook. How about a cheap pulse counter? http://private.addcom.de/KeithWilson/Projects/imco.htm http://www.boondog.com/%5Ctutorials%5C8254%5C8254.htm Any simple analog tachometer circuit could easily be recalibrated to be used to count these pulses: http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/earlytach.html This NE555 common timer IC schematic would be ideal! http://www.electronics-tutorials.com...tachometer.htm You didn't say how big the pulses are coming from the device. This circuit converts any bigger-than-5V pulses to 5V with the zener on pin 2, If your pulses are smaller, simply add a transistor amp to make them bigger on the input where the points go. Take the scale out of the meter movement, paint it white and make a new scale in litres/hour with your boat's maximum fuel consumption about 90% of the scale. The 50K resistor and .1uF cap over the meter sets the timing. Fool with those values to make it read your slower pulses. You might want to add a big electrolytic cap right across the meter if the meter pulses in so slow an application, smoothing it out. The theory is on the page. -- Larry |
What did you find for flow measuring?
"Franz Eckert" wrote in message . dk... Hi Larry. Actually i have found a flow measuring device, rather cheap too. But i should have pointed out that i was in search for the schematics for the read out device. So what i need is a schematic that i can make a digital or analog read out of the impulses from the flow sensor. And it would be nice if it was not Dependent on a notebook. Nice links, but 'damn' they are expensive :-) Wkr Franz "Larry" skrev i en meddelelse ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: Maybe some of you gurus have an inexpensive idear of how to make a flow meter that can measure the usage af gas to the engines. I don't really care if it is analog or digital, as long as i can built it myself :-) The medical profession has a clear plastic flowmeter that's about 3" in diameter with a red ball that the fluid running through it rotates around the tube. It's a positive flow meter in that the ball just fits the round tube and the tiniest flow of liquid shows up as a rotation of the ball. I have no idea where you'd get it, but I'm sure any nurse or hospital supply person could point you to the right company. It would be very simple to put a light on one side of this tube and a photocell on the other (OK, IR LED and photo IC is more complex and up-to- date). Every time the ball comes around the loop, it would cut the light so you could TIME the ball's rotation around the loop, which on the tube is calibrated in cc/hr or minute for the nurse to count. The time measured would be easily converted to litres/hour or gallons/minute for your display. The pulses could simply be fed to a serial port on a PC or notebook already in use with a simple program monitoring the port's data-in and using the PC's timer functions. How's that?....(c; Americans, a lazy, sloven lot to be sure, would use: http://www.asenashop.com/ivn/pr-0/9286.html or http://store.wmjmarine.com/s3fw022u1.html or http://www.consumersmarine.com/produ...l.cfm?i=380020 or http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/FLOSCAN/FLO1.htm They all run on a little wheel that rotates as the fuel pushes it around passing through it. A magnet senses the wheel's movement and converts each vane into a pulse for measurement... -- Larry |
Hi there.
Goto www1.uk.conrad.com and search for component number 187151 - 14 That should do the trick, don't you think? Wkr Franz "johnhh" skrev i en meddelelse ... What did you find for flow measuring? "Franz Eckert" wrote in message . dk... Hi Larry. Actually i have found a flow measuring device, rather cheap too. But i should have pointed out that i was in search for the schematics for the read out device. So what i need is a schematic that i can make a digital or analog read out of the impulses from the flow sensor. And it would be nice if it was not Dependent on a notebook. Nice links, but 'damn' they are expensive :-) Wkr Franz |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: youre a genious. Shhhh....don't tell everyone! The government will have me working on Shuttle problems if this gets out!....shhhh....(c; Any great Danish beer would be ok....(c; -- Larry |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: That should do the trick, don't you think? Wkr Franz My friend, Dan, had a Hatteras 56 motor yacht with twin Detroit Diesel 9V92TA beasts turning 32", 4-bladed wheels. I used to call it "The Train" because of its 32 volt electrical system, like a train. The engines were 735hp each with the twin turbochargers, one on each bank of 4 cylinders on each engine. One day I was "cleaning out the soot" about 5 miles offshore in the Atlantic from the main helm below and Dan happen to catch a glimpse of the dual-reading Flowscan flow meters. I thought he was going to have a heart attack when he saw how HIGH I could make them read "cleaning out the soot". Kay, his wife, thought it was wonderful as she came up on her plane steady as a rock from the Naiad Stabilizers I had repaired a couple of weeks previous. (Blown fuse buried under the engine room false decking.) "Geez!", he exclaimed. "I didn't know you could make them read THAT HIGH!", he kept on over the roar of nearly 1500 hp of 2-stroke diesel power. I miss his boat. I spent many weekends in its bilge fixing the twin gensets (8KVA and 20KVA Onans), 5 zone air conditioners, dual Galley Maid water pumps and their controls that never worked. It took hours to pump the green frog water out of the main fresh water tanks after i got them running. That water had been growing in there for years! They were like trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose... After he sold it, Kay said she was going to buy us a big diesel engine on a stand and put it in their new garage to make us happy....(c; -- Larry |
If you feel nostalgic, feel free and change my oil in my 671s or clean
out my breathers. I won't even charge you for the experience!!!! Larry wrote: "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: That should do the trick, don't you think? Wkr Franz My friend, Dan, had a Hatteras 56 motor yacht with twin Detroit Diesel 9V92TA beasts turning 32", 4-bladed wheels. I used to call it "The Train" because of its 32 volt electrical system, like a train. The engines were 735hp each with the twin turbochargers, one on each bank of 4 cylinders on each engine. One day I was "cleaning out the soot" about 5 miles offshore in the Atlantic from the main helm below and Dan happen to catch a glimpse of the dual-reading Flowscan flow meters. I thought he was going to have a heart attack when he saw how HIGH I could make them read "cleaning out the soot". Kay, his wife, thought it was wonderful as she came up on her plane steady as a rock from the Naiad Stabilizers I had repaired a couple of weeks previous. (Blown fuse buried under the engine room false decking.) "Geez!", he exclaimed. "I didn't know you could make them read THAT HIGH!", he kept on over the roar of nearly 1500 hp of 2-stroke diesel power. I miss his boat. I spent many weekends in its bilge fixing the twin gensets (8KVA and 20KVA Onans), 5 zone air conditioners, dual Galley Maid water pumps and their controls that never worked. It took hours to pump the green frog water out of the main fresh water tanks after i got them running. That water had been growing in there for years! They were like trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose... After he sold it, Kay said she was going to buy us a big diesel engine on a stand and put it in their new garage to make us happy....(c; |
Ed wrote in
: If you feel nostalgic, feel free and change my oil in my 671s or clean out my breathers. I won't even charge you for the experience!!!! Had a 6-71 hooked to a big DC generator aboard USS Everglades AD-24 to power my calibration lab through a DC to 60Hz m-g set, 25KW? Something like that. Great engine. Uncle never complained about all the hours I put on her...(c; Er, ah, I'll pass on the oil changing....thanks. -- Larry |
In article , Larry
wrote: My friend, Dan, had a Hatteras 56 motor yacht with twin Detroit Diesel 9V92TA beasts turning 32", 4-bladed wheels. I used to call it "The Train" because of its 32 volt electrical system, like a train. The engines were 735hp each with the twin turbochargers, one on each bank of 4 cylinders on each engine. I hate to break it to you.. but Detroit diesel NEVER made a 9V92 engine.... Maybe it was a typo for 8V92..... Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Okay Larry, let me tell you my story.
Here in Demark we pay so many taxes, that we have to do everything ourselves :-) For 5 years ago i bought a old military coast control boat. 30 feet, 5 tons, two Mercedes 180 installed. I was happy, my own boat, yappiiii. But then the engines began to fail, they were old, very old. I took out one, and send it for a complete overhaul. That costs me in the area of 2000 Dollars. NO MORE i said. So when the second began to fail, and was due to a overhaul, i simply took out the old engines, and then started to remove all the old wood that was rotten. One thing lead to another, ans soon i was standig there with a 30 foot open rowboat. Everything was rotten. I had to reinforce the bow with 10 layers og glasfiber, because there was absolutely no wood underneath. At the same time i removed about 15 pipes through the hull, they were of no use, and i don't know what they ever where there for. So i started looking around for some suitable engines (cheap), and found two Golf Diesel 1.6 liters on the Internet, they costs me about 80 $. It took me (and a friend) about 2 months making my gears fit on the new engines, but finally we succeded. Then i started rebuilding the entire boat, completely new interior, and new top. It has taken me almost 3 years, and i am still not done yet. The gears were of the type with a loooong gearchange handle, so usual morse cable would not hold for long ( i had already broken 3). So i thought that maybe air pressure and one air piston on each gear maybe could do the trick. And despite what everybody told me, i made it work. I also had to make a new fuel tank. There were two in the old days, but they flowed from one tank to the other, in a 1/4 inch hose, that took about 1 hour before they leveled out. The fuel outlet was in the bottom of the tank, so my filters keept getting real dirty. Almost everything was made by peoble that had absolutely no idear about what they were doing. So redoing the boat was a good idear, it has become much stronger and reliable, and now i know exactly how everything is put together. So now i can enjoy sailing again, but there still needs a lot of finishing touch to the boat. Tell me, just to make me real ****ty overhere, what is the comon price on two used disel engines, around 70-100 HP, with gear and everything? If you like i can send you a link to some pictures that illustrates me rebuilding the boat. Wkr Franz "Larry" skrev i en meddelelse ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: That should do the trick, don't you think? Wkr Franz My friend, Dan, had a Hatteras 56 motor yacht with twin Detroit Diesel 9V92TA beasts turning 32", 4-bladed wheels. I used to call it "The Train" because of its 32 volt electrical system, like a train. The engines were 735hp each with the twin turbochargers, one on each bank of 4 cylinders on each engine. One day I was "cleaning out the soot" about 5 miles offshore in the Atlantic from the main helm below and Dan happen to catch a glimpse of the dual-reading Flowscan flow meters. I thought he was going to have a heart attack when he saw how HIGH I could make them read "cleaning out the soot". Kay, his wife, thought it was wonderful as she came up on her plane steady as a rock from the Naiad Stabilizers I had repaired a couple of weeks previous. (Blown fuse buried under the engine room false decking.) "Geez!", he exclaimed. "I didn't know you could make them read THAT HIGH!", he kept on over the roar of nearly 1500 hp of 2-stroke diesel power. I miss his boat. I spent many weekends in its bilge fixing the twin gensets (8KVA and 20KVA Onans), 5 zone air conditioners, dual Galley Maid water pumps and their controls that never worked. It took hours to pump the green frog water out of the main fresh water tanks after i got them running. That water had been growing in there for years! They were like trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose... After he sold it, Kay said she was going to buy us a big diesel engine on a stand and put it in their new garage to make us happy....(c; -- Larry |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: Okay Larry, let me tell you my story. Here in Demark we pay so many taxes, that we have to do everything ourselves :-) For 5 years ago i bought a old military coast control boat. 30 feet, 5 tons, two Mercedes 180 installed. I was happy, my own boat, yappiiii. But then the engines began to fail, they were old, very old. I took out one, and send it for a complete overhaul. That costs me in the area of 2000 Dollars. NO MORE i said. So when the second began to fail, and was due to a overhaul, i simply took out the old engines, and then started to remove all the old wood that was rotten. One thing lead to another, ans soon i was standig there with a 30 foot open rowboat. Everything was rotten. I had to reinforce the bow with 10 layers og glasfiber, because there was absolutely no wood underneath. At the same time i removed about 15 pipes through the hull, they were of no use, and i don't know what they ever where there for. So i started looking around for some suitable engines (cheap), and found two Golf Diesel 1.6 liters on the Internet, they costs me about 80 $. It took me (and a friend) about 2 months making my gears fit on the new engines, but finally we succeded. Then i started rebuilding the entire boat, completely new interior, and new top. It has taken me almost 3 years, and i am still not done yet. The gears were of the type with a loooong gearchange handle, so usual morse cable would not hold for long ( i had already broken 3). So i thought that maybe air pressure and one air piston on each gear maybe could do the trick. And despite what everybody told me, i made it work. I also had to make a new fuel tank. There were two in the old days, but they flowed from one tank to the other, in a 1/4 inch hose, that took about 1 hour before they leveled out. The fuel outlet was in the bottom of the tank, so my filters keept getting real dirty. Almost everything was made by peoble that had absolutely no idear about what they were doing. So redoing the boat was a good idear, it has become much stronger and reliable, and now i know exactly how everything is put together. So now i can enjoy sailing again, but there still needs a lot of finishing touch to the boat. Tell me, just to make me real ****ty overhere, what is the comon price on two used disel engines, around 70-100 HP, with gear and everything? If you like i can send you a link to some pictures that illustrates me rebuilding the boat. Wkr Franz Yo, Franz Would love to see that! The last madman ist born yet - I thought it was me.... I have started out on a 28-footer GRP fishing boat hull, sawn in 3 pieces (and then some)to get decommission pay from the guvinmint. I now have the MF aligned and put together - almost all holes patched, filled, ground etc - and now it awaits osmosis coating on a totally raw bottom. But I get off the track.... We're talking engines here... Well at the local scrapyard I could get a renovated drive line 105 HP marine diesel engine with gear, driveshaft, stern tube and prop for roughly 10,000 USD + 25% taxes (The VAT has never caught on in Jutland, however). And we are talking about us normal, half-broke guys, right? So good & wise people said: Since running a diesel with a propeller means 75% output on the prop, and since the load on the engine corresponds to constantly driving uphill, go for someting big and solid (I need 1.5 t. of ballast anyway) and prefreably 6 or 8 cylinders to minimize vibration. So my choice of engine turned out to be a Nissan diesel (Patrol style) 6-cyl. 130 Hp about 15 yr. old diesel. reputed to be indestructible. Of course I have to construct a watercooled exhaust flange in order not to get an exhaust that's too hot to handle, and provide it with a fresh water cooling system (Sea water won't do for a number of reasons). No sweat - almost. But I got the first one for free - we will test run that one during the winter and if it turns out OK, we drop it in. The engine room is made with ample space for a bigger engine, though. But the bottom line of this long yarn is that I can get a renovated and tested Patrol engine for roughly 2000 USD. The Golf diesel is a good one - but beware the cooling! And anyway it's better to lose an engine than THE engine :-) Good Luck Ole |
Franz Eckert wrote: Hi there. Goto www1.uk.conrad.com and search for component number 187151 - 14 That should do the trick, don't you think? Looks interesting. With a diesel engine you would need 2 - a second one to subtract the fuel returned to the tank by the spill line???? |
Hi there.
Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. So if you put the flow sensor on the intake from the tank, and then make your return system from the pump go in after the flow sensor, you would have an accurate measuring. But offcourse you would have to remember to switch the return system back to the tank if you change filters or anything else that lets air in to your fuel system. Everything depends on that you don't have any leaks in your fuel line. Wkr Franz skrev i en meddelelse oups.com... Franz Eckert wrote: Hi there. Goto www1.uk.conrad.com and search for component number 187151 - 14 That should do the trick, don't you think? Looks interesting. With a diesel engine you would need 2 - a second one to subtract the fuel returned to the tank by the spill line???? |
I am afraid the returned fuel does a lot more than just remove air bubbles.
Routing it directly back into the engine is not a good idea. The extra fuel cools the injectors. When it does it gets hot. When it gets hot the specific gravity goes down and when the specific gravity goes down it contains less energy per unit of volume. The engine's power rating decreases about 2% for every 15C increase in fuel temperature. The hot fuel also does not cool the injectors properly so they no longer deliver the correct amount of fuel. The extra fuel should be returned to the tank to cool off and the tank's return fitting should be located away from the pick up for the same reason. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Franz Eckert" wrote in message . dk... Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. So if you put the flow sensor on the intake from the tank, and then make your return system from the pump go in after the flow sensor, you would have an accurate measuring. But offcourse you would have to remember to switch the return system back to the tank if you change filters or anything else that lets air in to your fuel system. Everything depends on that you don't have any leaks in your fuel line. Wkr Franz skrev i en meddelelse oups.com... Franz Eckert wrote: Hi there. Goto www1.uk.conrad.com and search for component number 187151 - 14 That should do the trick, don't you think? Looks interesting. With a diesel engine you would need 2 - a second one to subtract the fuel returned to the tank by the spill line???? |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in message
. dk... Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. I beg to differ. It is my understanding that the return fuel MUST be returned to the tank, because it is used for lubrication and _cooling_ of the injector pump. If you return it the way you describe, you'll end up with a very hot diesel loop. Meindert |
I should add:
As the injectors heat up beyond their design temperature they deliver less fuel which leans out the mixture. Lean engines run hotter which heats up the injectors more which heats up the fuel more. As the fuel heats up its vapor pressure goes up. When the vapor pressure exceeds the boost pump pressure it makes bubbles and bubbles make VAPOR LOCK. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:rJLOe.24$dm.12@lakeread03... I am afraid the returned fuel does a lot more than just remove air bubbles. Routing it directly back into the engine is not a good idea. The extra fuel cools the injectors. When it does it gets hot. When it gets hot the specific gravity goes down and when the specific gravity goes down it contains less energy per unit of volume. The engine's power rating decreases about 2% for every 15C increase in fuel temperature. The hot fuel also does not cool the injectors properly so they no longer deliver the correct amount of fuel. The extra fuel should be returned to the tank to cool off and the tank's return fitting should be located away from the pick up for the same reason. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com "Franz Eckert" wrote in message . dk... Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. So if you put the flow sensor on the intake from the tank, and then make your return system from the pump go in after the flow sensor, you would have an accurate measuring. But offcourse you would have to remember to switch the return system back to the tank if you change filters or anything else that lets air in to your fuel system. Everything depends on that you don't have any leaks in your fuel line. Wkr Franz skrev i en meddelelse oups.com... Franz Eckert wrote: Hi there. Goto www1.uk.conrad.com and search for component number 187151 - 14 That should do the trick, don't you think? Looks interesting. With a diesel engine you would need 2 - a second one to subtract the fuel returned to the tank by the spill line???? |
Actually, both Meihdert and Glen are correct.
And, if you were to try to subtract the return flow from the supply, there is a good chance you will get negative fuel flow at low loads unless the temperature correction is Perfect...(Somebody tried it - Once) What he can do is get or build a little tiny cooler. Put it in the return line and then route the return line to the lift pump's fuel filter and put an upside down empty filter housing after that to collect bubbles. This is substantially what we did in any number of diesel engine labs over the last multiple decades. Or maybe we used a cooler and a float/level tank (like a giant carburetor float bowl) but this would be most unsuitable for a boat. Matt Colie (a Detroit lab rat for a couple of decades) Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor Meindert Sprang wrote: "Franz Eckert" wrote in message . dk... Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. I beg to differ. It is my understanding that the return fuel MUST be returned to the tank, because it is used for lubrication and _cooling_ of the injector pump. If you return it the way you describe, you'll end up with a very hot diesel loop. Meindert |
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:1pMOe.30$dm.3@lakeread03... I should add: As the injectors heat up beyond their design temperature they deliver less fuel which leans out the mixture. Lean engines run hotter which heats up the injectors more which heats up the fuel more. Aren't you mixing up diesel and gas engines now? As far as I know, you regulate the power of a diesel with the amount of injected fuel, as opposed to the intake valve of a gas engine. So you cannot have a lean diesel engine, right? Meindert |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message
... "Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message news:1pMOe.30$dm.3@lakeread03... I should add: As the injectors heat up beyond their design temperature they deliver less fuel which leans out the mixture. Lean engines run hotter which heats up the injectors more which heats up the fuel more. Aren't you mixing up diesel and gas engines now? As far as I know, you regulate the power of a diesel with the amount of injected fuel, as opposed to the intake valve of a gas engine. So you cannot have a lean diesel engine, right? I don't think so. An injector is very precisely machined. As it heats up the plunger expands. Because it is longer than wide its displacement decreases so less fuel gets injected. Unless the engine has a sophisticated EDC that compensated for temperature you will get a leaner mixture. It can't lean out as much as tightening down a gas carburetor but it does reduce fuel flow while the same amount of air is being introduced into the cylinder. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:suOOe.41$dm.31@lakeread03... I don't think so. An injector is very precisely machined. As it heats up the plunger expands. Because it is longer than wide its displacement decreases so less fuel gets injected. Unless the engine has a sophisticated EDC that compensated for temperature you will get a leaner mixture. I don't understand this. If the injector gives less fuel, won't the engine simply go down in revs? Meindert |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote I don't understand this. If the injector gives less fuel, won't the engine simply go down in revs? Oops! Small brain fart. You are right. It will reduce power, not increase the combustion temperature. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com |
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:Jb_Oe.513$dm.386@lakeread03... "Meindert Sprang" wrote I don't understand this. If the injector gives less fuel, won't the engine simply go down in revs? Oops! Small brain fart. You are right. It will reduce power, not increase the combustion temperature. Phew! For a brief moment I thought I'd lost my understanding of diesels... :-)) Meindert |
In article ,
"Franz Eckert" wrote: Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. If only you had a "clue" about the technology your spewing about..... The Return line isn't there to bleed air out of the injector lines... ALL Diesel Injectors are Fuel Cooled, and the Injector Pump ALWAYS puts more fuel up the Injector lines than the Injector puts into the cyl. The difference is drained back to the fuel tank via the Return Line. If you don't have a Return line your going to be spilling the extra fuel somewhere. Just try this experiment, if you think different....Take your Return Line and plug it off, to say 60Psi...when your Return Line fills up, one of two things will happen. Either your engine will stop running due to overpressure on the injecter Returns, or you will burst the plugged off Return Line and spew fuel out the break. Me |
Me wrote in
: In article , "Franz Eckert" wrote: Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. I've been watching this thread in amusement wondering when someone would point out that you need dual flow meters to compensate for the return fuel flow. From past discussions I seem to recall that it's very difficult to accurately measure the flow rates as the fuel pulses rapidly as the injectors open/close which leads to inaccurate readings. I believe that this is a much more complex problem than it seems from the outset. -- Geoff |
In article ,
Geoff Schultz wrote: Me wrote in : In article , "Franz Eckert" wrote: Hi there. Nope, if you make a T piece on the return fuel, you won't need more that one. The return fuel is only there because you need a way to get the air out of your system, once it is out, you can simply return the (return) to your fuel system. I've been watching this thread in amusement wondering when someone would point out that you need dual flow meters to compensate for the return fuel flow. From past discussions I seem to recall that it's very difficult to accurately measure the flow rates as the fuel pulses rapidly as the injectors open/close which leads to inaccurate readings. I believe that this is a much more complex problem than it seems from the outset. -- Geoff Actually, it isn't all that complicated, one just has to understand the mechanics of the diesel fuel system of the engine. I run a 2.5Mwatt Powerhouse during the summers, and we monitor the fuel useage of all our BIG Yellow KittyCATS. Years ago I installed calibrated flowmeters in all the fuel supply lines to each engine, as well as calibrated flowmeters in each return line just before the checkvalve that leads back to the Fuel Return Manifold. Each flowmeter has a Electronic Instrument Output, that feeds a Network Node Processor. Our Monitoring System reads the pulses out of each meter and subtracts the Return Flow for each engine from the Input flow to each engine and logs it on an Hourly Cycle. Not hard to do, it just takes money. Bruce in alaska who proved to Mgmt that a 3516 uses less than 80% the fuel as two 398's when all are running at 90% Load..... -- add a 2 before @ |
Okay okay okay.
Cool down guys, i stand corected about the return line. But there has also been some misunderstandig in this thread. I have at no time mentioned anything about simply closing the return line, as one mentioned. As i see it there is two solutions at hand. 1. Getting two flow sensors, where the one mounted on the return line count negative (if you get my drift). 2. Taking the return line for a spin in some copper pipe to cool it down, and then letting it reenter right after the flow sensor from the tank. Tank ---(Flow Sensor)----------------------------Pump | | ----Return---With cooling---- But what i don't really understand. How come that many smaller boats (Diesel) have fairly small tank's, and yet the Diesel does not seem to get hotter? I believe you guys, don't misunderstand me. But it must be possible to do there measuring like i draw in the schematic. Anyways, i found a counter schematic from vellerman, that can use two flowsensors. And it is not that expensive, all in all i think the system would cost me 60 $, lot cheaper that the ready made systems out there. Unless somebody really has a cheap offer. Man, i love theese quests for solutions :-) Wkr Franz |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: Tell me, just to make me real ****ty overhere, what is the comon price on two used disel engines, around 70-100 HP, with gear and everything? I bought a used Perkins 4-108 with all controls and transmission from someone on the rec.boats.cruising newsgroup in North Carolina for $US1200 with 700 hours on it. It's been powering Lionheart ever since. Runs great. It's only 50hp, though, but that should give you some ideas. http://www.tadiesels.com/used.html#MENG That should give you an idea of what they're charging on this side of the pond. -- Larry |
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in news:1pMOe.30$dm.3@lakeread03:
Lean engines run hotter which heats up the injectors more which heats up the fuel more. Er, ah, we're talking about DIESEL engines, here, not gas. Diesel engines run "lean" because the intake air isn't restricted in any way on most of them. Some even have blowers to compress the intake air! "Lean" means nothing in a diesel. Whatever is there, explodes (at the appropriate time if we inject it appropriately). The bigger the explosion, the more power it makes. They don't "run lean" like a gas engine "runs lean", burning valves, holing pistons, etc. If you take the air cleaner off, you're looking right into the intake valves on my 4-strokers. Those that don't "run lean" are the ones pouring black smoke all over your nice Lexus' white paint....(c; -- Larry |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: But what i don't really understand. How come that many smaller boats (Diesel) have fairly small tank's, and yet the Diesel does not seem to get hotter? Just an observation to all this..... Lionheart's 90 gallon diesel tank is INSIDE the starboard passageway leading aft to the aft cabin (ketch). I've never seen it get any "hotter" from running the Perkins 4-108 than not. Anyone sitting on the starboard seat in the center cockpit is sitting right on top of it. Noone's ass gets burned or even warmed. That would be nice in the winter!...(c; -- Larry |
Hi Larry.
That's what i mean. I think i will try with a simple test, and make a valve that can steer the fuel two ways. 1. return it to the tank, so i can get the air out. 2. directly back to the feed line after the flow sensor, so that the sensor only senses the REAL flow from the tank to the engine. Then i will let it rock for a while, and keep a close look on every detail, like feeling how hot the fuel lines get, and see if the engines start smoking or in any other way start behaving drunken :-) If it get's hot, it must be possible to simply let the fuel go for a spin in the boat through some copper tube, and let it cool of there before reentering the fuel line. I have ordered the parts, so lets see what i get out of that idear. Anyway, thanx for the link about the engines. That is extremely cheap, and engine like that would costs twice or even three times the amount here in Demark. Franz / Denmark "Larry" skrev i en meddelelse ... "Franz Eckert" wrote in . dk: But what i don't really understand. How come that many smaller boats (Diesel) have fairly small tank's, and yet the Diesel does not seem to get hotter? Just an observation to all this..... Lionheart's 90 gallon diesel tank is INSIDE the starboard passageway leading aft to the aft cabin (ketch). I've never seen it get any "hotter" from running the Perkins 4-108 than not. Anyone sitting on the starboard seat in the center cockpit is sitting right on top of it. Noone's ass gets burned or even warmed. That would be nice in the winter!...(c; -- Larry |
"Franz Eckert" wrote in
. dk: If it get's hot, it must be possible to simply let the fuel go for a spin in the boat through some copper tube, and let it cool of there before reentering the fuel line. You could simply feed the return oil through a heat exchanger. Any old Mercedes diesel junk car has a great oil heat exchanger beside the radiator that would work great. (I have a '73 220D and '83 300TD. Both have them.) If that works for you, just mount them where the bilge blowers are sucking air through them and you're in business. The oil coolers on the Mercedes diesels have oil pressure on them far exceeding any fuel pressure in the primary loop...(c; -- Larry |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:17 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com