Raymarine versus Furuno
 

We are looking for a combination radar/chart plotter/fish-depth finder for
our boat. We see some pretty nice looking units from both of these
manufacturers. Does anyone have any general comments one way or the other?

--
Peter Aitken

"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

We are looking for a combination radar/chart plotter/fish-depth finder
for our boat. We see some pretty nice looking units from both of these
manufacturers. Does anyone have any general comments one way or the
other?

--
Peter Aitken



On our THIRD 2KW Raymarine radome in Charleston. Damned thing is made of
POT METAL - ZINC! The little rubber tit drain breathes in humidity at
dusk, the water condenses out of it on the potmetal chassis/circuit boards
that are open to the radome environment/magnetron's easily rustable magnet
and the cheap connectors. During the day, the sun makes sure the water
trapped in the dome corrodes everything inside it in the heat and causes
pressure to blow out the drain tit so it can suck in more moisture when the
sun sets to repeat the cycle, over and over, like an empty gas tank every
24 hours. Rots the potmetal chassis into a fine, conductive white powder
that falls on the electronics until it shorts "something" important.
Raymarine's solution is to keep replacing them with another piece of marine
consumer crap just like the old one...no changes, no fix.

Do you really want this on your nice boat?

Furuno...it's gotta be better.



--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

We are looking for a combination radar/chart plotter/fish-depth finder
for our boat. We see some pretty nice looking units from both of these
manufacturers. Does anyone have any general comments one way or the
other?

--
Peter Aitken



On our THIRD 2KW Raymarine radome in Charleston. Damned thing is made of
POT METAL - ZINC! The little rubber tit drain breathes in humidity at
dusk, the water condenses out of it on the potmetal chassis/circuit boards
that are open to the radome environment/magnetron's easily rustable magnet
and the cheap connectors. During the day, the sun makes sure the water
trapped in the dome corrodes everything inside it in the heat and causes
pressure to blow out the drain tit so it can suck in more moisture when
the
sun sets to repeat the cycle, over and over, like an empty gas tank every
24 hours. Rots the potmetal chassis into a fine, conductive white powder
that falls on the electronics until it shorts "something" important.
Raymarine's solution is to keep replacing them with another piece of
marine
consumer crap just like the old one...no changes, no fix.

Do you really want this on your nice boat?

Furuno...it's gotta be better.


Thanks for the excellent report. In fact I was considering the 2KW radome. I
will keep this in mind.

--
Peter Aitken

On 2005-06-12 02:11:16 +1000, "Peter Aitken" said:

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

We are looking for a combination radar/chart plotter/fish-depth finder
for our boat. We see some pretty nice looking units from both of these
manufacturers. Does anyone have any general comments one way or the
other?

--
Peter Aitken



On our THIRD 2KW Raymarine radome in Charleston. Damned thing is made of
POT METAL - ZINC! The little rubber tit drain breathes in humidity at
dusk, the water condenses out of it on the potmetal chassis/circuit boards
that are open to the radome environment/magnetron's easily rustable magnet
and the cheap connectors. During the day, the sun makes sure the water
trapped in the dome corrodes everything inside it in the heat and causes
pressure to blow out the drain tit so it can suck in more moisture when the
sun sets to repeat the cycle, over and over, like an empty gas tank every
24 hours. Rots the potmetal chassis into a fine, conductive white powder
that falls on the electronics until it shorts "something" important.
Raymarine's solution is to keep replacing them with another piece of marine
consumer crap just like the old one...no changes, no fix.

Do you really want this on your nice boat?

Furuno...it's gotta be better.


Thanks for the excellent report. In fact I was considering the 2KW
radome. I will keep this in mind.

A word of caution. This is one of Larry's hobby horses and he has a
few. When this first came up many others indicated that they did not
have similar problems. At our marina there is a real mixture of
Raymarine (some very old ones), Furuno, JRC etc. I worked on a
Raymarine 4KW unit that had quite a number of years service and inside
was pristine.

Oh, another point about Larry is that he has opinions on equipment he
has never used or owned so my advice is take it for what it is worth
(you paid nothing for it and that is what it is worth). Logic should
dictate. If the Raymarine scanner has such a glaring defect then in the
land of the lawsuit don't you think some out of work lawyer would have
stirred up a class action lawsuit against Raymarine by now? Just a
thought for the whiplash willey brigade.

--
Regards,
John D Proctor

Peter Aitken wrote:

snip Larry's rant
Thanks for the excellent report. In fact I was considering the 2KW radome. I
will keep this in mind.

Please bear in mind that this is one of Larry's pet rants. It shows up
about 30 times a year, he probably has it stored as boilerplate and
regurgitates it with a hot key.

I have opened up the radomes of many of the same model radar he mentions
and have never found one badly corroded. I have once or twice seen
light surface rust on the magnetron's iron core laminations. Very light
surface oxidation is sometimes seen on the aluminum panels and covers.
I have never seen any corrosion on PCB's or electronic components or
connectors.

Not even on radars that had been in service for periods of up to 4-5
years have I ever seen significant corrosion. These were, for the most
part, on pleasure boats and seasonally used.

It may be that Larry's problem is associated with the radars he installs
and because of the way he install them.

Do not plug the provided drain tube in an attempt to prevent
condensation build up inside the domes. I find little or no evidence of
moisture accumulation inside Raymarine radomes. But trapping the
moisture from condensation inside is not going to help anything.

The installation instructions for Raymarine radars are clear and
explicit, installations can by anyone with common sense and good
mechanical and electrical skills simply by following the directions.

I consider Furuno radars to be comparable to Raymarine in quality
service. I admittedly have had much less experience with Furuno than
Raymarine.

The controls and menus on the two brands are quite different in use, I
have heard a number of marine technicians and boat owners express a
preference for one over the other based on perceived ease of using the
controls, menus, and submenus.

I find Raymarine controls and menus to be a little more logical or
intuitive in use than Furuno's. The Furuno operation and service
manuals have also been a weak point for me, calls often had to be made
to their technical support to resolve settings. Their tech support is
good, I have had their techs tell me to "rip that page out and throw it
away" on some configuration and setup problems.

Networking multiple displays, other equipments, and PC's is a less
expensive with Furuno because it is basically an TCP/IP network. But
that does not mean that everything you know about networking PC's will
be found to be the same.

If you can spend some time at a marine dealer who has working display or
simulators set up, if may help you decide between the two brands. Boat
rides can even better if you can get one with a knowledgeable user.

Good luck,

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

"Peter Aitken" wrote in
m:

Thanks for the excellent report. In fact I was considering the 2KW
radome. I will keep this in mind.

--
Peter Aitken



Raymarine told us this "only happens in certain climates", but I'm not
buying it. I want to pull the top off other domes in our marina to see
what their radars look like in our "certain climates".

How stupid. The damned thing is made of POTMETAL!...ZINC! Where the
connectors go into it, it's OPEN! All the water trapped in the dome is
easily sucked inside as things heat and cool. The last one died because it
trashed the electronics that drives the PRINTER STEPPER MOTOR! Yes, the
drive motor for the cheap little, UNCOATED, printed circuit board it uses
for a phased-array antenna, driven by a little tape recorder rubber belt,
is straight out of a printer, used to pull the head back and forth. It's
on TOP of the potmetal chassis fully exposed to water it never would be in
a printer.

Well, after all, it's only $2000. What would you expect?



--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

As to the others who don't like me pointing out how much of a piece of ****
this radar dome really is....I can only invite you to simply take out the
four tiny screws that hold the top of the cheap plastic to the bottom and
inspect it for yourself to see what I'm talking about.....

Notice the waterproof, spring-loaded wire connectors where the data/power
cable connects directly to the open-to-the-weather circuit board it's
soldered to.

It's CRAP....see for yourself, don't take my word for it.

Red Cloud® wrote in
:

Pot Metal is not zinc. Pot Metal is slang for "ALLOY". It merely means
it is a metal made of a combination of other metals that were mixed in
a "pot", so to speak... As an example, Stainless Steel is pot metal.

rusty redcloud



Whatever it is, condensate turns it into a fine, white, CONDUCTIVE powder
and deposits it on the circuit boards, as it flakes off the pot metal...

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

Red Cloud® wrote in
:

Can you point me to a few hundred other people who are having the same
problem, or is it only you?

rusty redcloud


A few hundred? Are there that many in use? Raymarine said it was "certain
environments" where this happens, without further explanation. I guess
that means "near the sea" as that's where the most moisture is. It'd
probably work fine in the mountains.

They won't tell you anything, of course. The Waste Marine guys said they
had a lot of them returned in the first year, so I suppose that is some
indication. I have notice there are no more of them on the shelves of WM
here. That's another indication things aren't going well....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

Red Cloud® wrote:

snip
Can you point me to a few hundred other people who are having the same problem,
or is it only you?


Larry's unbalanced rants have resulted in my having him plonked! (kill
filed) so that I do not see his posts. But I do see his driveling
quoted in replies.

I'm beginning to believe that if he has ever actually seen some
corrosion it is a result of his insistence on plugging up drain/vent.
Doing that traps the moisture from condensation moisture inside, it
can't ever get out. He may be suffering from a self-inflicted wound. :)

For the record, as a former machinist/gunsmith/welder, the term "pot
metal" is commonly used to refer to the various Zamak
(zinc/aluminum/magnesium/copper) alloys used for hot chamber casting
complex shapes. It is very widely used and was once much used on
automobiles for mirrors, head and tail light housings, trim pieces, and
the like.

I once made a simple mold for an welder so he could cast his own Zamak
filler rods for use in TIG welding vintage auto parts. The welder used
to get obscene amounts of money for repairing and filling holes in parts
for vintage car restorations.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Sorry, I share Larry's opinion of Raymarine. I saw them replace THREE 4
KW open arrays on my pier alone because they were full of water. The
installer told me they were replacing them all over the area due to a
design fault. Because of this, I bought a Raymarine with a 4KW dome. I
had a good experience with an older Raytheon radar system so I was
trying to stick with them. While out on a trip, it just quit working.
To make a long story short, the guys sent in the dome and display for
repair under warranty. It took something like 8 weeks for it to be
returned, and it still didn't work! Turned out to be a "bad" cable.
Have no idea why it went bad... no punctures, breaks, etc. Good thing I
wasn't out full time cruising at the time. 8 week turnaround at the
Raymarine shop tells me that A. They don't have enough people working
the B. Way too many of their units are coming back for repair, or C.
Both of the above. Ever since I've warned folks away from Raymarine and
suggested Furuno. I've never seen or heard of problems with Furuno like
I've seen with Raymarine. I guess they're just going cheap after
spinning the company off.

Red Cloud® wrote:

Have you ever been to the auto museum in Seal Cove on Mt. Desert Island? It's
worth the trip! Great collection.


Yep, seen them both. Last week there was some kind of classic/vintage
auto gathering out on the island, it was strange to see things like a
'50 Plymouth convertible and a '56 Ford Victoria mingled into the stream
of traffic on Route 3.

I don't go out on the island this time of year unless it is very early
in the morning or am forced into doing a show and tell for visitors.
Too much traffic!

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Keith wrote:

Sorry, I share Larry's opinion of Raymarine. I saw them replace THREE 4
KW open arrays on my pier alone... snip

Thanks for saying that, it sounds credible and on topic. I don't say
that corrosion cannot happen, but it has not been seen in my
experiences. I used to occasionally buy and sell used marine stuff
including many Raymarine radars, I have seen the insides of many
radomes. I have not had any experience with Raymarine open array
scanners but your experience plants a warning about them in my mind.

I have never seen the corrosion as described by that other person and am
reporting my experience in an attempt to keep things on balance. I do
not consider it to be an inherent or endemic problem with 2KW/4KW
radomes. I would not buy any used radar without opening the dome (or
motor housing on open arrays) for a quick visual inspection.

snip I've never seen or heard of problems with Furuno like
I've seen with Raymarine. I guess they're just going cheap after
spinning the company off.

The older JRC built stuff certainly had a higher quality to it. I
assume the Furunos are still being made or assembled in Japan and that
probably accounts for the difference in quality (and their higher prices
to some extent).

I hate it when a brand that had quality and reliability starts rolling
over and giving those up to maintain sales at competitive prices.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. If I had known my question would
start a small battle I might have thought twice!

Dare I ask about Garmin g?

--
Peter Aitken

Red Cloud© wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:18:26 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:
snip
Yep, seen them both.


Both? The last time I was there was about 5 years ago, and I wasn't
aware of another auto museum. Did I simply miss the other one, or is
it relatively new?

No, there is only one on the island. I was thinking of Owl's Head
museum also.

But another great thing for guys/tool queers to see on the island is the
Hull's Cove Tool Barn. They have an incredible range of stuff there and
their prices are reasonable any time of year. If you like older
American made tools and are looking for things that would interest
anyone from farmers to blacksmiths to mechanics/home machinists.

Lots of odds and ends of nuts and bolts and hardware consumables too.
That stuff is nearly all American made antique hardware at much better
prices than you'll pay for the Chinese crap at Home Depot.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

In article .com,
"Keith" wrote:

Sorry, I share Larry's opinion of Raymarine. I saw them replace THREE 4
KW open arrays on my pier alone because they were full of water. The
installer told me they were replacing them all over the area due to a
design fault. Because of this, I bought a Raymarine with a 4KW dome. I
had a good experience with an older Raytheon radar system so I was
trying to stick with them. While out on a trip, it just quit working.
To make a long story short, the guys sent in the dome and display for
repair under warranty. It took something like 8 weeks for it to be
returned, and it still didn't work! Turned out to be a "bad" cable.
Have no idea why it went bad... no punctures, breaks, etc. Good thing I
wasn't out full time cruising at the time. 8 week turnaround at the
Raymarine shop tells me that A. They don't have enough people working
the B. Way too many of their units are coming back for repair, or C.
Both of the above. Ever since I've warned folks away from Raymarine and
suggested Furuno. I've never seen or heard of problems with Furuno like
I've seen with Raymarine. I guess they're just going cheap after
spinning the company off.


I'll second the vote for Furuno over both RayMarine or JRC, which made
most of the older Raytheon commercial radars for years. I installed the
first Furuno Radar on the west coast 35 years ago, when I worked as a
tech for the original importer/dealer. It was on a small harbor tug in
Seattle, Wa. and was still in use 10 years ago, when the vessel owners
sold it. The original Powersupply failed after 2 hours of operation,
and we waited for two weeks for a replacement from the factory in Japan.
Replaced the magnitron twice since then, and the T/R Cell once. Last
time I saw it, its picture the tube was getting a bit dim, but was still
used daily. In just a few years Furuno captured the majority of the
commercial fleets, beating out Raytheon, Decca, Kelvin Hughs, and a
pile of upstarts, like Sitex, Simrad, Icom, Westmar, and the like.
Walk down any dock, where the commercial boys tie up and you will
see Furuno on the majority of the vessels. Reason? Great product,
Great Service, Super Great Support, and a VAST Dealer Network worldwide.
You can go into vertually any Port in the World, and find a Furuno
Dealer with Factory Parts Access. Other outfits will say they are as
good, but Furuno has a track record to prove the point. Other outfits
sell cheaper units, but you pay the difference many times over in Rapair
Costs and Downtime Costs while you wait for parts.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

Subject: Thanks Was: Raymarine versus Furuno
From: "Peter Aitken"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.electronics

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. If I had known my question would
start a small battle I might have thought twice!

Dare I ask about Garmin g?

--
Peter Aitken



Garmin's ok. I don't like their UNBALANCED NMEA cables which make it easy
for the SSB to tear up the network, but the Garmin 185
GPS/chartplotter/sonar on Lionheart came from the old Endeavour 35 and
still makes a great backup.

I have a Garmin 725 VHF walkie talkie. The first one leaked but Garmin
simply replaced it. I'm still using it. I like it because it's LOUD!

As to the flamewar....This just proves you did a great job bringing up a
good subject for the group. Ya done good! Any question that doesn't
result in a flamewar (or someone punching someone else off the dock at your
marina) isn't worth answering, anyways....(c; Your score is determined by
how many irate replies it generates and for how many months it can sustain
itself without you pumping it up to keep it going....hee hee. None of them
are afraid to flail away when they're a thousand miles off and out of
punching range. This is nothing. Go read rec.boats for a week. How
awful!

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

Subject: Thanks Was: Raymarine versus Furuno
From: "Peter Aitken"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.electronics

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. If I had known my question would
start a small battle I might have thought twice!

Dare I ask about Garmin g?

--
Peter Aitken



Garmin's ok. I don't like their UNBALANCED NMEA cables which make it easy
for the SSB to tear up the network, but the Garmin 185
GPS/chartplotter/sonar on Lionheart came from the old Endeavour 35 and
still makes a great backup.

I have a Garmin 725 VHF walkie talkie. The first one leaked but Garmin
simply replaced it. I'm still using it. I like it because it's LOUD!

As to the flamewar....This just proves you did a great job bringing up a
good subject for the group. Ya done good! Any question that doesn't
result in a flamewar (or someone punching someone else off the dock at
your
marina) isn't worth answering, anyways....(c; Your score is determined by
how many irate replies it generates and for how many months it can sustain
itself without you pumping it up to keep it going....hee hee. None of
them
are afraid to flail away when they're a thousand miles off and out of
punching range. This is nothing. Go read rec.boats for a week. How
awful!


LOL! There sure is an interesting group of people here. Hopefully I will
have a report and photos soon - we head for the coast tomorrow to sea-trial
the Pursuit and Grady White and make our decision (and write many checks I
am sure).


--
Peter Aitken

"Peter Aitken" wrote in
:

LOL! There sure is an interesting group of people here. Hopefully I
will have a report and photos soon - we head for the coast tomorrow to
sea-trial the Pursuit and Grady White and make our decision (and write
many checks I am sure).


--
Peter Aitken



I've posted a few photos to alt.binaries.pictures.sports.ocean which is a
dead newsgroup in the alt series. Post any and all pictures there, which
is lots easier than creating webpages for the spammers....

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.