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#1
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"Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
#2
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Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never
solder battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the use of a blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you would probably do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and melting the insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double layer heatshrink (the sort with glue inside). The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an additional seal for the whole. Doug Dotson wrote: "Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
#3
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"Steve" wrote in message ... Wow, you have to be so carefull on this group. To clarify, I never solder battery terminals. I am not even sure how you would without the use of a blow-torch to get such a lot of metal hot enough. Then you would probably do a lot of damage to the wire with wicking solder and melting the insulation. They have to be crimped and sealed with double layer heatshrink (the sort with glue inside). Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. The crimp/solder I was refering to was for the spade connectors on the switches/cct breakers etc. Yes it might not be the universally accepted best solution but if the crimp is good to start with then the solder should not penetrate the crimp joint and hence will only act as an additional seal for the whole. See my previous comment about the research done by NASA back in the 70's or 80's. Doug Dotson wrote: "Jim Donohue" wrote in message news:vuI1e.506$ZV5.360@fed1read05... "Sailct41" wrote in message ... Crimp or solder but not both. Soldering a connection that is crimped is thought to weaken it, and crimping a previously soldered connector would probably lead to a cold solder joint. I suggest that a good way to do your internal connections would be to crimp the wire and then use the heat shrink from West Marine that has glue inside. Not only does the shrink provide protection but the glue seals against moisture. When I last did my battery cables I used my rigging crimping tool to crimp the connectors to the heavy wire (two crimps, at right angles to each other) and used the heat shrink (and for god sakes use a gun, not a lighter) with adhesive. After three years I had no corrosion at all either at the terminals or underneth them (did a modification to add additional golf carts). Scott "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message ... "Steve" wrote in message ... All, Thanks for the replies. It should mention that just about all the wire I am working on at the moment is internal to the boat. This is an age old discussion that has more aspects than one can easily comprehend. First ABYC is down on solder only. It argues that a connection based on solder alone may fail from heat at some inoppportune moment. So no straight solder joints. Crimps are, as is often suggested, very reliable when properly made. How do you tell if they are properly made? You can't. Only real way to QC the thing is to section it and check with a microscope. Note that too much crimp is actually worse than too little. You can pull check a crimp and eliminate a too little crimp but an over crimp is pretty close to being undetectable visually. If you have a suitable bridge you might pick it up by an impedance change but that is going a little far. Rather extreme for boat applications. It is a very repeatable technique. If you make a good crimp or two the next 10 thousand are virtually certain to be as good. If however the first is bad.... Buy a good crimper that produces a proper crimp each time. One of the ratcheting types. I know a bit about this after having to change out tens of thousands of harnesses in the field when bad crimps in the main AC connections were found on a device. Wow! That's alot of work. How many years have you been doing this? Soldering a crimp does not weaken the crimp. The concern is that it creates a hard point up the wire where vibration will cause a stress cracking. I would think that if carefully limited to the connector barrel by the use of a suitable heat sink it would lead to a quite suitable connection. Otherwise you must support the wiring mechanically somewhere back of the solder. I seem to recall in an issure of NASA Tech Briefs about 25 years ago that the major problems with solder joints had to do with microcracks forming as a result of thermal cycling resulting in high impedance in the joint. Also, moisture can deteriorate via the microcracks assuming the joint is not made moisture tight. I personally would crimp, solder with heat sink and use an inch of the sealing heat shrink to support the connection. I would also believe that a matched set of connectors and new crimp dies in the proper tool are equally as good as the above crimp and solder. However with generic crimping tools (even of the ratchet sort) and WM connectors...you are on your own. Calder is interesting on this one. Volume one recommends crimp and solder. Volume two lists the authorities as believing good crimp is as good or better than solder. Jim Donohue |
#4
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"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
: Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. My little MAPP gas torch did a fine job heating Lionheart's battery terminals for soldering. There was very little wicking because the #0 cable strands are quite a bit larger than hookup wire strands. The soldered connection is a neat, very strong and very low resistance connection. You can pick up an L-16 by picking up its cable with this solder connection. Try that with your crimp connector. Soldering maximizes the contact surface area as far as it can be. Crimping only makes contact with a tiny outside edge of the outside conductors only, nearly a point contact but with some length down the hole. Cold solder joints are the ones that "crack"....not properly soldered joints which are stronger than the wire, itself. |
#5
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"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Yup! But I have a friend that soldered all his battery connection with a small blowtorch as you mentioned. My little MAPP gas torch did a fine job heating Lionheart's battery terminals for soldering. There was very little wicking because the #0 cable strands are quite a bit larger than hookup wire strands. The soldered connection is a neat, very strong and very low resistance connection. You can pick up an L-16 by picking up its cable with this solder connection. Try that with your crimp connector. Picking up a battery by the cables isn;t a terribly good practice, although a good crip should be able to do it as well. Soldering maximizes the contact surface area as far as it can be. Crimping only makes contact with a tiny outside edge of the outside conductors only, nearly a point contact but with some length down the hole. Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Cold solder joints are the ones that "crack"....not properly soldered joints which are stronger than the wire, itself. Not according to the research I have seen in the past. Perhaps that has changed in the past few years. |
#6
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"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
: Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed......and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. |
#7
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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:57:15 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote: "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed......and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. with a properly crimped connector the wire becomes one solid mass throughout. regards Gary |
#8
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"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in : Actually, the conductors are flattened when they contact the inside of the connector and each other giving quite a bit of contact area. Still, no matter how hard you crimp, the terminal only makes contact with the very edge of the outer conductors, no matter how much pressure you put on the inner conductors. Just not true. Soldering makes contact with every strand on all the surface area that's exposed. True, but the soldered joint is subject to other factors that will compromise it over time. .....and properly soldered, prevents exposing covered copper to seawater and condensation corrosions. Moisture (especially seawater) will eat up a soldered joint pretty quick. A properly crimped joint that is sealed from moisture will last a long time. |
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