Laptop GPS question
 

I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led me
to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use one
with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap formats
are the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

Gualtier Malde (Chuck) wrote:
I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led me
to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use
one with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap
formats are the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

So long as the GPS can be set to download in Lat./Lon., it can be used for
nautical navigation.

Dennis.


- - -
Satellite photocharts of the UK & Ireland
available, excellent detail and accurate
calibration using Oziexplorer.
Remove *nospam* to reply.

Dennis Pogson wrote:

Gualtier Malde (Chuck) wrote:

I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led me
to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use
one with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap
formats are the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.


So long as the GPS can be set to download in Lat./Lon., it can be used for
nautical navigation.

Dennis.

That's good news - so generally the formats of nautical charts and ones
for highway use are the same?

Chuck,

I use a Garmin GPS with my laptop with Delorme products for highway use and
with the Cap'n Firstmate for nautical use.

I love it.

Ansley Sawyer
SV Pacem

Gualtier Malde (Chuck) wrote:

I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led me
to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many answers.

Try these:

https://www1.securesiteserver.co.uk/holux/catalogue/

http://www.rikaline.com/gps_receiver.htm

Also, do an eBay search for GPS devices and you'll see a lot of makes
and types of GPS receivers.

You have to carefully consider which version of the GPS 18 you buy and
how you want to use it. Here is an extract from a Garmin web page:

"The PC and LVC versions both default to output data in the industry
standard NMEA 0183 data format, but may also be user programmed to
output data in the GARMIN proprietary format. The USB version produces
data only in the GARMIN proprietary format."

If you are not using a Garmin automotive navigation software (nRoute,
MapSource City Navigator, etc.) the 18 USB will not work for you. If
you are looking for a NMEA output the GPS 18 USB will not work for you.
And, as far as I know, the GPS 18 USB is not compatible with any of
Garmin's marine charting packages.


These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use
one with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap
formats are the same?

For marine use, you want a GPS receiver with a NMEA output and that
rules out the GPS 18 USB. But you could use the GPS 18 PC or LVC for a
NMEA input for a marine navigation software.

And BSB and the routeable road maps are not the same. BSB is a raster
format (a bitmapped image) while most of the road navigation packages
are vector formats to allow automatic routing. For the most part, the
vector road navigation map packages are much more expensive and limited
to use with specific brands of hardware.

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

For the most part, I would not buy hardware from Garmin because it would
mean I could use only Garmin's mapping/charting packages. Further, any
interoperability (automobile, marine, topo, etc.) would be limited to
what they wanted to market or allow and require additional purchases of
more Garmin mapping packages.

I don't have anything against Garmin, their marketing is simply not
aimed at me.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

In article ,
"Gualtier Malde (Chuck)" wrote:


That's good news - so generally the formats of nautical charts and ones
for highway use are the same?

NO, they are not the same or even close. what the guy said was that if
your GPS can output Lat/Long it will drive the map system that you have
loaded in the application. Each mapping system is usually mutually
exclusive, and propritary to the program. BSB isn't the same as Delorma,
which is different from Bluechart or some of the others. One program
doesn't do both......


Me

Me wrote:
In article ,
"Gualtier Malde (Chuck)" wrote:


That's good news - so generally the formats of nautical charts and
ones for highway use are the same?

NO, they are not the same or even close. what the guy said was that
if your GPS can output Lat/Long it will drive the map system that you
have loaded in the application. Each mapping system is usually
mutually exclusive, and propritary to the program. BSB isn't the
same as Delorma, which is different from Bluechart or some of the
others. One program doesn't do both......

But all of them understand the NMEA protocol, which is the language of GPS.
The NMEA sentences
are usually downloaded in decimal lat/long and interpreted by the receiver
into degrees, minutes and centiminutes to 3 decimal places for nautical
nav., but you can set most receivers in their built-in setup programs to
Deg, Min.sec., or Ordnance Survey co-ords, or many other formats.
My Garmin does this, but I can't answer for all GPS recevers.

Dennis.
- - -
Satellite photocharts of the UK & Ireland
available, excellent detail and accurate
calibration using Oziexplorer.
Remove *nospam* to reply.

I use a GPS from Deluo Electronics with Windows Streets and also Capn
Firstmate and Maxsea. Works great with each program.

Ansley Sawyer wrote:
Chuck,

I use a Garmin GPS with my laptop with Delorme products for highway use and
with the Cap'n Firstmate for nautical use.

I love it.

Then you must have a Garmin GPS that has an NMEA output. Not every
model of Garmin GPS is able to do that.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Jack,

You are right. I have set up the Garmin 76 to output NMEA for the Cap'n
Firstmate and the Simrad autopilot.

Ansley Sawyer
SV Pacem

Jack Erbes wrote:
Gualtier Malde (Chuck) wrote:


You have to carefully consider which version of the GPS 18 you buy and
how you want to use it. Here is an extract from a Garmin web page:

"The PC and LVC versions both default to output data in the industry
standard NMEA 0183 data format, but may also be user programmed to
output data in the GARMIN proprietary format. The USB version produces
data only in the GARMIN proprietary format."

I looked all over for that kind of thing and didn't find it. I do wish
I were better at finding things in web sites.

If you are not using a Garmin automotive navigation software (nRoute,
MapSource City Navigator, etc.) the 18 USB will not work for you. If
you are looking for a NMEA output the GPS 18 USB will not work for you.
And, as far as I know, the GPS 18 USB is not compatible with any of
Garmin's marine charting packages.

OK. I am beginning to understand that my question was based entirely on
my own misunderstanding (and badly stated as well). Now I believe that
the entire GPS device is in the thing I thought was an antenna, and what
is on the laptop is the software.

So I have navigation software using NMEA and I have a DB9 connector. I
buy the GARMIN 18PC, plug in and power up and tell me software where
it's connected, and I'm off and running again.

I didn't realize that the Garmin unit, itself, is simply a GPS machine
without its own display.

Unless I am still incorrect in that assumption, I'll depart now with my
sincere thanks for all of your replies.

Chuck

Well, perhaps except for this from Jack Erbes:

For the most part, I would not buy hardware from Garmin because it would
mean I could use only Garmin's mapping/charting packages. Further, any
interoperability (automobile, marine, topo, etc.) would be limited to
what they wanted to market or allow and require additional purchases of
more Garmin mapping packages.

I don't have anything against Garmin, their marketing is simply not
aimed at me.

But if the unit I buy has NMEA output and I have software to handle that
(Nobeltec), then I don't have to worry about Garmin's software, do I? I
hope not, because that would be a deal-breaker.

Chuck

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:42:35 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote:



For the most part, I would not buy hardware from Garmin because it would
mean I could use only Garmin's mapping/charting packages. Further, any
interoperability (automobile, marine, topo, etc.) would be limited to
what they wanted to market or allow and require additional purchases of
more Garmin mapping packages.

Almost all Garmin GPS receivers, like most other makes, will output
NMEA-0183 format data, which can be read by virtually all mapping
programs.

Garmin recievers only use the Garmin protocol for uploading and
downloading waypoints and routes, and for uploading Garmin's
proprietary maps or charts. Many non-Garmin programs can use the
Garmin protocol for waypoint and route transfers.

I don't have anything against Garmin, their marketing is simply not
aimed at me.

Jack

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

Gualtier Malde (Chuck) wrote:

snip
I looked all over for that kind of thing and didn't find it. I do wish
I were better at finding things in web sites.
snip

That was from a google search for "garmin gps 18" and the hit that
produced at http://www.garmin.com/products/gps18oem/

Well, perhaps except for this from Jack Erbes:

For the most part, I would not buy hardware from Garmin because it
would mean I could use only Garmin's mapping/charting packages.
Further, any interoperability (automobile, marine, topo, etc.) would
be limited to what they wanted to market or allow and require
additional purchases of more Garmin mapping packages.

I don't have anything against Garmin, their marketing is simply not
aimed at me.


But if the unit I buy has NMEA output and I have software to handle that
(Nobeltec), then I don't have to worry about Garmin's software, do I? I
hope not, because that would be a deal-breaker.

You are right, you don't have to worry as long as you have a NMEA
output. And nearly all newer GPS receivers will give you a NMEA output,
the Garmin 18 USB just happens to be one that will not.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Peter Bennett wrote:

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:42:35 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote:



For the most part, I would not buy hardware from Garmin because it would
mean I could use only Garmin's mapping/charting packages. Further, any
interoperability (automobile, marine, topo, etc.) would be limited to
what they wanted to market or allow and require additional purchases of
more Garmin mapping packages.


Almost all Garmin GPS receivers, like most other makes, will output
NMEA-0183 format data, which can be read by virtually all mapping
programs.

Garmin recievers only use the Garmin protocol for uploading and
downloading waypoints and routes, and for uploading Garmin's
proprietary maps or charts. Many non-Garmin programs can use the
Garmin protocol for waypoint and route transfers.

In my general inexperience with things Garmin, I may have some mistaken
impressions about the effect of the Garmin protocol. I thought data in
the Garmin proprietary format would not be read or used by an
application not specifically written to use it. In other words, if an
application was looking for NMEA data strings, it would not read any of
the Garmin proprietary data strings would it?

And I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm trying to learn more. Just
in case I have not already established my level of expertise here, I'll
say know that I know about enough to be dangerous. :)

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:12 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote:

Peter Bennett wrote:

Garmin recievers only use the Garmin protocol for uploading and
downloading waypoints and routes, and for uploading Garmin's
proprietary maps or charts. Many non-Garmin programs can use the
Garmin protocol for waypoint and route transfers.

In my general inexperience with things Garmin, I may have some mistaken
impressions about the effect of the Garmin protocol. I thought data in
the Garmin proprietary format would not be read or used by an
application not specifically written to use it. In other words, if an
application was looking for NMEA data strings, it would not read any of
the Garmin proprietary data strings would it?

That is correct. You have to manually switch the Garmin receiver
between Garmin and

And I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm trying to learn more. Just
in case I have not already established my level of expertise here, I'll
say know that I know about enough to be dangerous. :)

Jack

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:15:12 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote:

Peter Bennett wrote:
(hit the wrong button on the previous post...)
Garmin recievers only use the Garmin protocol for uploading and
downloading waypoints and routes, and for uploading Garmin's
proprietary maps or charts. Many non-Garmin programs can use the
Garmin protocol for waypoint and route transfers.

In my general inexperience with things Garmin, I may have some mistaken
impressions about the effect of the Garmin protocol. I thought data in
the Garmin proprietary format would not be read or used by an
application not specifically written to use it. In other words, if an
application was looking for NMEA data strings, it would not read any of
the Garmin proprietary data strings would it?

That is correct. You have to manually switch the GPS receiver between
Garmin and NMEA modes. Some programs (like Ozi Explorer) know enough
to switch modes and baud rates (Garmin protocol uses 9600, NMEA uses
4800) when you ask them to transfer waypoints.

One marine charting program is too smart - if you tell it you have a
Garmin receiver, it insists on using Garmin protocol instead of NMEA
to get the real-time navigation data. If you want to feed NMEA data
from the GPS to an autopilot or DSC radio, you have to lie to the
program, telling it you have a Generic NMEA source, so you can leave
the GPS in NMEA mode.

And I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm trying to learn more. Just
in case I have not already established my level of expertise here, I'll
say know that I know about enough to be dangerous. :)

Jack

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
In my general inexperience with things Garmin, I may have some mistaken
impressions about the effect of the Garmin protocol. I thought data in
the Garmin proprietary format would not be read or used by an
application not specifically written to use it. In other words, if an
application was looking for NMEA data strings, it would not read any of
the Garmin proprietary data strings would it?

You are mixing up two things here. Firstly, there is the Garmin protocol.
This is a proprietary *protocol* consisting of binary (non human-readable)
data at 9600 baud.

Secondly, there are proprietary *sentences* or data strings, which are human
readable text, at 4800 baud. These sentences are called proprietary because
they are not defined by the NMEA standard. They have the standard NMEA
sentence format, starting with $P to indicate that they are Proprietary and
ending with a Carriage Return/Linefeed combo like any other NMEA sentence,
but the actual contents is entirely up to the manufacturer of the device.

The difference is for instance that proprietary NMEA sentences will be
passed by NMEA equipment like multiplexers and NMEA-linked instruments, but
a proprietary protocol will not.

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...

In my general inexperience with things Garmin, I may have some mistaken
impressions about the effect of the Garmin protocol. I thought data in
the Garmin proprietary format would not be read or used by an
application not specifically written to use it. In other words, if an
application was looking for NMEA data strings, it would not read any of
the Garmin proprietary data strings would it?


You are mixing up two things here. Firstly, there is the Garmin protocol.
This is a proprietary *protocol* consisting of binary (non human-readable)
data at 9600 baud.

Secondly, there are proprietary *sentences* or data strings snip

Okay, thanks to Peter Bennet's posts and yours I'm smarter about both
NMEA and the Garmin protocol and sentences.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net
(also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com)

Well, I am no expert, BUT,
NEMA is a protocol for outputting differences between course, turning info,
etc, nothing o do with mapping at all. The Maps actually take a
proportionally lat-lon coordinate, and place this in the place where they
belong on a particular mapping system, BBS, and a bunch of new ones. They
are apples and oranges.

NEMA is just a communication language that identifies certain things such as
errors in course and sends that error out to be plotted in radar, or
autopilot, etc it does not care at all about any maps that were provided to
you for visual ease of use.

Allot of the newer mapping systems are in fact usable among the different
manufacturers, but there are different methods for creating layers which
allow a position to be indicated on a map that translate to a DMS position.

But, maps ARE not all interchangeable, period, I have had 3 GPS receivers
and have had to have 3 different formats of software in order to be able to
properly correlate a position to a map.

You can get a position off of just about any mapping system on a PC, but you
may have to manually upload that info to a GPS.

Now as far as just the GPS receiver attached to a PC, there is probably much
more flexibility as to software compatibility as the PC can handle
translations, but to say all of them are interchangeable is probably a
incorrect and un-safe statement.

Mike
"Gualtier Malde (Chuck)" wrote in message
...
I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led me to
search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use one
with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap formats are
the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

MikeT wrote:
Well, I am no expert, BUT,
NEMA is a protocol for outputting differences between course, turning
info, etc, nothing o do with mapping at all. The Maps actually take a
proportionally lat-lon coordinate, and place this in the place where
they belong on a particular mapping system, BBS, and a bunch of new
ones. They are apples and oranges.

So these NMEA sentences that I see being downloaded from my Garmin, complete
with lat./long. co-ords, are just a figment of my imagination? My mapping
progarm is pulling them out of thin air?

In reality, your mapping program reads the position co-ords from the GPS and
translates this into a pixel position on the map. The co-relation between
the pixel position and the lat./lon. co-ords is done when you calibrate the
map in that particular program.

NEMA is just a communication language that identifies certain things
such as errors in course and sends that error out to be plotted in
radar, or autopilot, etc it does not care at all about any maps that
were provided to you for visual ease of use.

Allot of the newer mapping systems are in fact usable among the
different manufacturers, but there are different methods for creating
layers which allow a position to be indicated on a map that translate
to a DMS position.

But, maps ARE not all interchangeable, period, I have had 3 GPS
receivers and have had to have 3 different formats of software in
order to be able to properly correlate a position to a map.

You can get a position off of just about any mapping system on a PC,
but you may have to manually upload that info to a GPS.

Now as far as just the GPS receiver attached to a PC, there is
probably much more flexibility as to software compatibility as the PC
can handle translations, but to say all of them are interchangeable
is probably a incorrect and un-safe statement.

Mike
"Gualtier Malde (Chuck)" wrote in message
...
I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led
me to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many
answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use
one with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap
formats are the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

--
Satellite photocharts of the UK & Ireland
available, excellent detail and accurate
calibration using Oziexplorer.
Remove *nospam* to reply.

Very good explanation.
Never said anything about being a figment of imagination, but NEMA is ONLY a
communications protocol, the rest, as you stated, is done in the firmware
and software.

"Dennis Pogson" wrote in message
...
MikeT wrote:
Well, I am no expert, BUT,
NEMA is a protocol for outputting differences between course, turning
info, etc, nothing o do with mapping at all. The Maps actually take a
proportionally lat-lon coordinate, and place this in the place where
they belong on a particular mapping system, BBS, and a bunch of new
ones. They are apples and oranges.

So these NMEA sentences that I see being downloaded from my Garmin,
complete
with lat./long. co-ords, are just a figment of my imagination? My mapping
progarm is pulling them out of thin air?

In reality, your mapping program reads the position co-ords from the GPS
and
translates this into a pixel position on the map. The co-relation between
the pixel position and the lat./lon. co-ords is done when you calibrate
the
map in that particular program.

NEMA is just a communication language that identifies certain things
such as errors in course and sends that error out to be plotted in
radar, or autopilot, etc it does not care at all about any maps that
were provided to you for visual ease of use.

Allot of the newer mapping systems are in fact usable among the
different manufacturers, but there are different methods for creating
layers which allow a position to be indicated on a map that translate
to a DMS position.

But, maps ARE not all interchangeable, period, I have had 3 GPS
receivers and have had to have 3 different formats of software in
order to be able to properly correlate a position to a map.

You can get a position off of just about any mapping system on a PC,
but you may have to manually upload that info to a GPS.

Now as far as just the GPS receiver attached to a PC, there is
probably much more flexibility as to software compatibility as the PC
can handle translations, but to say all of them are interchangeable
is probably a incorrect and un-safe statement.

Mike
"Gualtier Malde (Chuck)" wrote in message
...
I came across a Garmin 18 WAAS-enhanced GPS for a laptop. That led
me to search for other types and brands, but I didn't get many
answers.

These units are sold with road use in mind. What if I wanted to use
one with nautical charts? Does anyone know if the BSB and roadmap
formats are the same?

I'd like to hear from anyone who might be using this equipment.

--
Satellite photocharts of the UK & Ireland
available, excellent detail and accurate
calibration using Oziexplorer.
Remove *nospam* to reply.

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:32:57 -0500, "MikeT"
wrote:

Well, I am no expert, BUT,
NEMA is a protocol for outputting differences between course, turning info,
etc, nothing o do with mapping at all. The Maps actually take a

Not right. Lat Lon are given in nmea sentences, from both loran C and
GPS receivers.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

As I stated, I am no expert, I was wrong!

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:32:57 -0500, "MikeT"
wrote:

Well, I am no expert, BUT,
NEMA is a protocol for outputting differences between course, turning
info,
etc, nothing o do with mapping at all. The Maps actually take a

Not right. Lat Lon are given in nmea sentences, from both loran C and
GPS receivers.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

Garmin does not require you to buy any particular software to run it -
it has the capability to output the data in NMEA format - most Nautical
mapping software will be able to use this (well maybe not most but
there are ALOT that can do so)