GPS output to multiple devices
 

How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?
I have a Garmin GPS 12 (handheld) mounted on the instrument panel. I use the
Garmin PC/DC cable to get 12 volt power from my utility lighter, and to
connect to a serial connector.
I have a Furuno 1622 radar with a Furuno NMEA cable, to which I added a
serial cable to connect to the Garmin PC cable. That works great: lat/long,
waypoints, course and speed displayed on the radar.
I'm replacing my VHF radio with one that has DSC and NMEA input. The NMEA
input plug looks like that on a stereo headset cord.
How do I get the GPS wired to that and the radar serial connector?

You can easily make a Tee type of cable that has multiple NEMA outputs.
Generally speaking you are not supposed to do this but we have had
excellent results running 2 devices requiring NEMA data. Most serial
devices do not pull enough current to drop the 5 volt signal signficantly.

The manufacturer of your radio should be able to tell you which part of the
stereo plug is ground and which part is NEMA data in.

Lisa
www.ultimatepassage.com

William G. Andersen wrote:

How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?
I have a Garmin GPS 12 (handheld) mounted on the instrument panel. I use
the Garmin PC/DC cable to get 12 volt power from my utility lighter, and
to connect to a serial connector.
I have a Furuno 1622 radar with a Furuno NMEA cable, to which I added a
serial cable to connect to the Garmin PC cable. That works great:
lat/long, waypoints, course and speed displayed on the radar.
I'm replacing my VHF radio with one that has DSC and NMEA input. The NMEA
input plug looks like that on a stereo headset cord.
How do I get the GPS wired to that and the radar serial connector?

Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions. As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve

"Lisa Collins" wrote in message
...
You can easily make a Tee type of cable that has multiple NEMA outputs.
Generally speaking you are not supposed to do this but we have had
excellent results running 2 devices requiring NEMA data. Most serial
devices do not pull enough current to drop the 5 volt signal signficantly.

The manufacturer of your radio should be able to tell you which part of
the
stereo plug is ground and which part is NEMA data in.

Lisa
www.ultimatepassage.com

William G. Andersen wrote:

How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?
I have a Garmin GPS 12 (handheld) mounted on the instrument panel. I use
the Garmin PC/DC cable to get 12 volt power from my utility lighter, and
to connect to a serial connector.
I have a Furuno 1622 radar with a Furuno NMEA cable, to which I added a
serial cable to connect to the Garmin PC cable. That works great:
lat/long, waypoints, course and speed displayed on the radar.
I'm replacing my VHF radio with one that has DSC and NMEA input. The
NMEA
input plug looks like that on a stereo headset cord.
How do I get the GPS wired to that and the radar serial connector?

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions. As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve

Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to meet a duck because you like pate."
Margaret Atwood

The manual with my Garmin GPS48 states that it will drive 4 listeners. I
have it connected to the autopilot NMEA input, VHF DSC input, computer
input, and Pactor IIe input. Works OK.All devices get and process the
GPS NMEA sentences.
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:


Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions. As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve


Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to meet a duck because you like pate."
Margaret Atwood

U¿ytkownik "William G. Andersen" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:8UVTc.8062$yh.5539@fed1read05...
How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?

I found it very useful

http://www.cactusnav.com/brochures_guides.htm

http://www.cactusnav.com/BrochureRac...EA%20Guide.pdf

Greetings from Poland

Tomek

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is
very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions.
As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment
dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve

Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC
J36 Gjo/a

Two loads of the type described will definitely not create a problem. I
concur with your statement that a MUX is superfluous.

Not sure what you consider inexpensive re mux's, but there's a Kiwi company
called Brookstone which markets several flavors, the cheapest of which goes
for $149. I have one, and it works fine.

Max Lynn
First 40.7
Tranquility

Steve,

Actually a mulxtiplexer is designed to compress multiple serial lines into a
single physical proprietary formatted data stream. This single line may be
connected directly to a modem, frame relay or even tunneled on a TCP/IP
connection to a second multiplex whose job is to split the connection back
into distinct serial lines. A typical 4 port multiplexer system would like
like this:

+----------+ +----------+
device 1--| | | |--device1
| | | |
device 2--| |wire/phone | |--device2
| Mux |-------------| Mux |
device 3--| | | |--device3
| | | |
device 4--| | | |--device4
+----------+ +----------+

The point of using a multiplexer is to maintain separate physical
connections between the local and remote sides while only using a single
resource (typically a phone line). Each device maintains its independence
i.e. device 1 on the local side can only talk to device 1 on the remote
side, etc. This is exactly Mr Anderson doesn't want to do.

In fact, in Mr. Anderson's orignal post, he explicitly states that he has a
single broadcaster and multiple receivers. There can be no collisons. The
only question is whether the sum of the current draws of the the receivers
is enough of a current sink to pull down the 5 volt transmitter source.


Steve Lusardi wrote:

Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions.
As you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve

"Lisa Collins" wrote in message
...
You can easily make a Tee type of cable that has multiple NEMA outputs.
Generally speaking you are not supposed to do this but we have had
excellent results running 2 devices requiring NEMA data. Most serial
devices do not pull enough current to drop the 5 volt signal
signficantly.

The manufacturer of your radio should be able to tell you which part of
the
stereo plug is ground and which part is NEMA data in.

Lisa
www.ultimatepassage.com

William G. Andersen wrote:

How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?
I have a Garmin GPS 12 (handheld) mounted on the instrument panel. I
use the Garmin PC/DC cable to get 12 volt power from my utility
lighter, and to connect to a serial connector.
I have a Furuno 1622 radar with a Furuno NMEA cable, to which I added a
serial cable to connect to the Garmin PC cable. That works great:
lat/long, waypoints, course and speed displayed on the radar.
I'm replacing my VHF radio with one that has DSC and NMEA input. The
NMEA
input plug looks like that on a stereo headset cord.
How do I get the GPS wired to that and the radar serial connector?

Thanks, Lisa: guess I'll go to a Radio Shack and see what they have to make
a Tee type of cable. My few previous experiences with the local store were
frustrating because they were just sales clerks and didn't understand what I
wanted to do, so they couldn't offer any help.

"Lisa Collins" wrote in message
...
You can easily make a Tee type of cable that has multiple NEMA outputs.
Generally speaking you are not supposed to do this but we have had
excellent results running 2 devices requiring NEMA data. Most serial
devices do not pull enough current to drop the 5 volt signal signficantly.

The manufacturer of your radio should be able to tell you which part of
the
stereo plug is ground and which part is NEMA data in.

Lisa
www.ultimatepassage.com

William G. Andersen wrote:

How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?
I have a Garmin GPS 12 (handheld) mounted on the instrument panel. I use
the Garmin PC/DC cable to get 12 volt power from my utility lighter, and
to connect to a serial connector.
I have a Furuno 1622 radar with a Furuno NMEA cable, to which I added a
serial cable to connect to the Garmin PC cable. That works great:
lat/long, waypoints, course and speed displayed on the radar.
I'm replacing my VHF radio with one that has DSC and NMEA input. The
NMEA
input plug looks like that on a stereo headset cord.
How do I get the GPS wired to that and the radar serial connector?

Kelton,
You seem to have done what I want to do. How did you physically connect one
Garmin to four devices? What parts/connections did you buy?

"Kelton Joyner" wrote in message
...
The manual with my Garmin GPS48 states that it will drive 4 listeners. I
have it connected to the autopilot NMEA input, VHF DSC input, computer
input, and Pactor IIe input. Works OK.All devices get and process the
GPS NMEA sentences.
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:


Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is
very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data
collisions. As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment
dealer
for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve


Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC
J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to
meet a duck because you like pate."
Margaret Atwood

Thanks, it's interesting but doesn't provide and details on wiring.


"Tomek Niedba³a" wrote in message
...

U¿ytkownik "William G. Andersen" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:8UVTc.8062$yh.5539@fed1read05...
How do I wire my GPS to multiple devices?

I found it very useful

http://www.cactusnav.com/brochures_guides.htm

http://www.cactusnav.com/BrochureRac...EA%20Guide.pdf

Greetings from Poland

Tomek

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is very
basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data collisions.
As
you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general.

You don't need a multiplexer to feed one NMEA stream into more than one
device. You only need one when multiple NMEA streams, like from a GPS *and*
some nav instruments are to be fed into one listener, like a computer or an
autpilot.

The NMEA standard specifically states that one talker (a GPS) should be able
to drive up to four listeners *simultaneously*. So even according to the
official spec it is perfectly ok to connect the output of a GPS to the input
of a radar AND a VHF.

Meindert
www.shipmodul.com

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Well, depends on what you call inexpensive. The world-famous Noland
multiplexer is about $200. Ours are a bit more expensive (starting from
around $250) but have more functions and comply with the EMC rules ;-)

Meindert

"William G. Andersen" wrote in message
news:sfgUc.9864$yh.8177@fed1read05...
Kelton,
You seem to have done what I want to do. How did you physically connect
one
Garmin to four devices? What parts/connections did you buy?

Just splice the TX or OUT wire from the GPS to the input from the VHF and
the radar. Do the same for the signal return or ground wire.

Meindert

William G. Andersen wrote:

Kelton,
You seem to have done what I want to do. How did you physically connect one
Garmin to four devices? What parts/connections did you buy?


If you're asking about the mechanics of doing it, a typical installation
would be with a 10 post screw terminal strip. For 4 additional devices,
bring the two NMEA (Data In and Out) wires to the first two terminals on
the strip, then make short jumpers to bring the data across to create
the next four pairs. Use ring or spade terminals
(http://www.installdr.com/TechDocs/999402.pdf)for the wires in and on
the jumpers.

If the screws were numbered 1 - 10 left to right, the NMEA data would
come onto the terminal strip at 1 and 2. Terminal 1 would be jumpered
to 3, 5 7, and 9. Terminal 2 would be jumpered to 4, 6, 8, and 10.

In the below, if the in pair were pins 1 and 2 the additional pairs
would be 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and 8, 9 and 10.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
| + + | + + | + + | + + | + + |
| | | | | | | | | |
| + + | + + | + + | + + | + + |

Some people will argue about doing it but my preference is to strip and
tin all wires before crimping the terminals on as it gives one solid
bundle for the crimp to act on.

For this job a terminal strip using #6 or #8 screws would be about
right, buy crimp on terminals appropriately sized to the wires. The
22-18 guage (red) ones would typically be right for this. If some of
the wires are smaller guage (26 is not uncommon) strip bare a double
length of wire, fold it back on itself to double the size for crimping,
and then tin that.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jacker at midmaine dot com

William,
I have a mount for my GPS in the steering pedestal. I mounted a four
terminal block inside the pedestal and wired +battery and -battery to
the block.
1. The four wire Garmin cable is connected to the block ( +, -, data in,
data out ).
2. A two wire cable is connected to the block ( -, data out )and routed
into the instrument pod and connected to the autopilot NMEA - and +
terminals.
3. From the terminal block I ran a four conductor cable down to my
navstation area. I installed another four terminal block there and
connected the cable to the block.
4. The VHF radio acessory cable GPS data in and - are connected to the
block ( Garmin data out and - ).
5. The Pactor IIe cable to the HF radio is a "Y" cable (available from
Faralon Electronics). The "Y" had a DB9 connector. I made a DB9 pigtail
cable and connected the data in and - to the block ( Garmin data out and
- ).
6. I made a another DB9 pigtail to connect to the computer. Data in an -
to Garmin data out and -.
7. I also connected second Garmin data cable to the block so that I
could remove the GPS from the pedestal and use it at the navstation
(usefull when planning routes and uploading them to the GPS).

Kelton
s/v Isle Escape



William G. Andersen wrote:

Kelton,
You seem to have done what I want to do. How did you physically connect one
Garmin to four devices? What parts/connections did you buy?

"Kelton Joyner" wrote in message
...

The manual with my Garmin GPS48 states that it will drive 4 listeners. I
have it connected to the autopilot NMEA input, VHF DSC input, computer
input, and Pactor IIe input. Works OK.All devices get and process the
GPS NMEA sentences.
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:



Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is

very

basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data

collisions. As

you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment

dealer

for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve


Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC

J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to

meet a duck because you like pate."

Margaret Atwood

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:00:42 -0700, "William G. Andersen"
wrote:

Thanks, Lisa: guess I'll go to a Radio Shack and see what they have to make
a Tee type of cable. My few previous experiences with the local store were
frustrating because they were just sales clerks and didn't understand what I
wanted to do, so they couldn't offer any help.

See http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/seaspray_nmea.pdf for the NMEA
wiring on my boat. I can have either of two GPS receivers feed the
computer, and either the selected GPS or the computer feeds the
autopilot. Since I made that drawing, I've added a radar which is
connected in parallel with the computer RX data.

I used a screw terminal strip to make the connections, but you could
simply splice all the wires together, without using any additional
hardware.

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:06:49 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:

Some people will argue about doing it but my preference is to strip and
tin all wires before crimping the terminals on as it gives one solid
bundle for the crimp to act on.

That's not a smart thing to do. If the connection ever overheats for
some reason, the solder could heat to the point of melting, and allow
the wire to slip right out of the crimp connection! If you want to
solder, crimp first, then apply solder. The other way around can be
dangerous.

--
BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)

"Brent Geery" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:06:49 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:

Some people will argue about doing it but my preference is to strip and
tin all wires before crimping the terminals on as it gives one solid
bundle for the crimp to act on.

That's not a smart thing to do. If the connection ever overheats for
some reason,

It doesn't even have to get overheated. Solder flows, also in cold
condition. You can test that yourself: tin the end of a stranded wire, put
it into a screwterminal and tighten it. After a week or so, check if the
screw is still tight: it isn't.

Crimp first. Then apply some solder if you like.

Meindert

Well, depends on what you call inexpensive. The world-famous Noland
multiplexer is about $200. Ours are a bit more expensive (starting from
around $250) but have more functions and comply with the EMC rules ;-)

Meindert


Keep away from the Brookhouse mux's from New Zealand. I had one which never
worked properly and their tech support is lousy.

Thank you, Kelton.
That's just the detailed information I was looking for! I guess this will
have to be one of my next projects - I'm getting tired of seeing all those
wires under the instrument panel. This should let me get the wires organized
so that I can have a neat installation and eliminate or stow the excess
wires.

Bill
"Kelton Joyner" wrote in message
...
William,
I have a mount for my GPS in the steering pedestal. I mounted a four
terminal block inside the pedestal and wired +battery and -battery to
the block.
1. The four wire Garmin cable is connected to the block ( +, -, data in,
data out ).
2. A two wire cable is connected to the block ( -, data out )and routed
into the instrument pod and connected to the autopilot NMEA - and +
terminals.
3. From the terminal block I ran a four conductor cable down to my
navstation area. I installed another four terminal block there and
connected the cable to the block.
4. The VHF radio acessory cable GPS data in and - are connected to the
block ( Garmin data out and - ).
5. The Pactor IIe cable to the HF radio is a "Y" cable (available from
Faralon Electronics). The "Y" had a DB9 connector. I made a DB9 pigtail
cable and connected the data in and - to the block ( Garmin data out and
- ).
6. I made a another DB9 pigtail to connect to the computer. Data in an -
to Garmin data out and -.
7. I also connected second Garmin data cable to the block so that I
could remove the GPS from the pedestal and use it at the navstation
(usefull when planning routes and uploading them to the GPS).

Kelton
s/v Isle Escape



William G. Andersen wrote:

Kelton,
You seem to have done what I want to do. How did you physically connect
one
Garmin to four devices? What parts/connections did you buy?

"Kelton Joyner" wrote in message
...

The manual with my Garmin GPS48 states that it will drive 4 listeners. I
have it connected to the autopilot NMEA input, VHF DSC input, computer
input, and Pactor IIe input. Works OK.All devices get and process the
GPS NMEA sentences.
Kelton
s/v Isle Escape

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:50:12 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:



Lisa,
NMEA interfaces are slow and bit serial (EIA RS-232). The protocol is

very

basic and there is no provision for either addressing or data

collisions. As

you stated, your solution is incorrect, the device to use is called a
statmux or statistical multiplexor in general. Specifically, there are
multiplexors available for this purpose that prevent data collisions
and
allow orderly sentence broadcast. Contact a qualified nav equipment

dealer

for further info. These devices are inexpensive and available.
Steve


Since Lisa was only proposing a single "talker" a mux is superfluous.
No collisions could occur. The only issue is whether the two loads
would reduce the signal too much.

But, since you mention it, where are there inexpensive muxes? I had
one once until it was hit by lightning, but it was very expensive at
the time.

Thanks




Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC

J36 Gjo/a


"Wanting to meet a writer because you like his work is like wanting to

meet a duck because you like pate."

Margaret Atwood

"Martin" wrote in message
...

Well, depends on what you call inexpensive. The world-famous Noland
multiplexer is about $200. Ours are a bit more expensive (starting from
around $250) but have more functions and comply with the EMC rules ;-)

Meindert


Keep away from the Brookhouse mux's from New Zealand. I had one which
never
worked properly and their tech support is lousy.


Very nice, Martin Perry!
This guy wanted to become an agent for Brookhouse in the UK on his
conditions, which we rejected. This is how he tries to get back to us.
He had problems getting the Seatalk option to work in a very messy
installation. We bent over backwards to help, but he decided he did not need
the Seatalk option after all and was refunded.
Brookhouse

Meindert Sprang wrote:

"Brent Geery" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:06:49 -0400, Jack Erbes
wrote:


Some people will argue about doing it but my preference is to strip and
tin all wires before crimping the terminals on as it gives one solid
bundle for the crimp to act on.

That's not a smart thing to do. If the connection ever overheats for
some reason,


It doesn't even have to get overheated. Solder flows, also in cold
condition. You can test that yourself: tin the end of a stranded wire, put
it into a screwterminal and tighten it. After a week or so, check if the
screw is still tight: it isn't.

Crimp first. Then apply some solder if you like.


Like I said, some people will argue about it... :)

If the wires are hot enough to melt solder the insulation is also
probably starting to melt away and you have more problems than a simple
loose connection. Also, in a marine environment, a tinned end will
arguably oxidize less and corrode less over time than an untinned end.

Look at the untinned copper wire connections on terminal strips in a 50
year old boat if you don't believe me. Soldering can be a bad choice
(like if acid core solder is used) but it has some good points too.

And I described crimping a spade lug onto the tinned end and putting
that under the terminal screw, not putting the tinned strands under the
screw.

Some crimpers leave a flattened clamping area that will let untinned
wires shift around in it and then the crimped spade terminal can lose
its grip. I was talking about the average hardware store terminal, put
on with the average hardware store crimping tool, by a non-professional
doing his own work. I know a little about four point crimpers, full
contact compression or swaged crimps, and other ways to get both good
contact and high pull strengths but the terminals and tools are not
found in the average hardware store.

As far as trying to solder on terminal lugs that have already been
crimped on? That sounds nothing short of bizarre to me. To each their
own I guess.

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jacker at midmaine dot com

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Meindert Sprang wrote:

It doesn't even have to get overheated. Solder flows, also in cold
condition. You can test that yourself: tin the end of a stranded wire,
put
it into a screwterminal and tighten it. After a week or so, check if the
screw is still tight: it isn't.

Crimp first. Then apply some solder if you like.


Like I said, some people will argue about it... :)

This is not a myth or a point of argument. It is the truth. I learnt it at
school that solder 'flows' when stressed in cold condition. And my personal
experience proves me right too.

If the wires are hot enough to melt solder the insulation is also
probably starting to melt away and you have more problems than a simple
loose connection.

Did you read what I wrote: the wires DO NOT HAVE TO BECOME HOT. SOLDER FLOWS
AT ROOM TEMPERATURE WHEN UNDER MECHANICAL STRESS!


Also, in a marine environment, a tinned end will
arguably oxidize less and corrode less over time than an untinned end.

I won't argue about that, that is correct. But there is a difference between
tinned stranded wire and stranded wire that is tinned after stripping. The
first doesn't have the wires soldered together and allows the single strands
to set firm in a crimped or screwed terminal. In the last case, you actually
crimp or clamp a 'lump' of solder with some strands in it, without a decent
mechanical cohesion.

And I described crimping a spade lug onto the tinned end and putting
that under the terminal screw, not putting the tinned strands under the
screw.

Same bad procedure.

Some crimpers leave a flattened clamping area that will let untinned
wires shift around in it and then the crimped spade terminal can lose
its grip. I was talking about the average hardware store terminal, put
on with the average hardware store crimping tool, by a non-professional
doing his own work.

These cheap crimpers will do a worse job on tinned ends too. I agree that
untinned strands can shift around, but tinning them first will give you a
solid connection only for the first hours or days. A crimped terminal
applies a constant stress on the copper, which ensures that it holds. If you
tin the ends first, you apply a constant stress on the solder or on strands
clogged together with solder. Eventually the solder flows, trying to release
from the stress and you end up with a connection that is even moore loose
than without tinned ends.

As far as trying to solder on terminal lugs that have already been
crimped on? That sounds nothing short of bizarre to me. To each their
own I guess.

That is a good practise. The stress is on the copper strands only and the
remaining gaps are filled with solder, without stress.

Meindert

Meindert Sprang wrote:

This is not a myth or a point of argument. It is the truth. I learnt it at
school that solder 'flows' when stressed in cold condition. And my personal
experience proves me right too.

Almost everything "flows" under pressure. I like to think of the
process as the material being swaged or formed.

Doesn't the flow stop at some point in the process as the pressure
relaxes? After the crimp is made, a pressure equilibrium should develop
that is the point where the two pressures (the clamping force from the
terminal and the "flow" in the solder) stabilize.

At that point there is a fairly constant and stable mechanical
connection between the two, electricity can flow across it, and it takes
some pretty sophisticated equipment to measure the resistance in the
connection. Simply stated, for the conditions it is good enough for the
job and it works.

Other factors (unsupported weight, vibration, etc.) enter into the
equation as far as the danger of "flow" contributing to conductors being
pulled away from a terminal. If you start shaking the wire, pulling on
it, or applying external heat, things can or will change.

Did you read what I wrote: the wires DO NOT HAVE TO BECOME HOT. SOLDER FLOWS
AT ROOM TEMPERATURE WHEN UNDER MECHANICAL STRESS!

Yes, I did read it, you don't have to yell. My comment about
overheating was in response to your comment:

That's not a smart thing to do. If the connection ever overheats for
some reason...

Anyway, I generally always tin stranded copper wire before I crimp a
terminal on. Have been doing it for years, and have not had any
systematic or recurring problems because of it.

If you can give me a reference that states that tinning stranded bare
copper wires before crimping a terminal on is a bad thing to do I'll
reconsider my ways. Otherwise we are entitled to have differing opinions.

And I pay attention to a number of other things too. Like the length of
the stripped and tinned wire, the type of crimper I am using, exactly
where on the length of the crimping area on terminal the crimp is made,
and the orientation of the seam in the terminal as I crimp it on.

And I give every terminal a good hard pull test after the crimp is made.

Maybe me ought to move on to a less controversial topic, like Talmudic
Law, or Which Religion is Best...

Cheers,

Jack

--
Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jacker at midmaine dot com

In article ,
(Jack Erbes) wrote:

tinning stranded bare
copper wires before crimping a terminal on is a bad thing to do

I have been told that it acts as a stress raiser at the point where the
tinning ends, and with vibration this can cause a fatigue fracture of the
wire at that point.

I think best practice is to use tinned copper wire (all the strands
individually tinned during manufacture), with a mechanical only crimp
covered by a short length of adhesive-lined heatshrink tubing.

In the UK, these people: http://www.power-store.com/products/mcw/index.htm
have an interesting range. The stuff they sell is the US-made Ancor range.

It's an expensive way of doing things but should last very well and be
reliable.

Regards,

Jerry Jones

Remove the obvious from my address to reply

"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
...
Meindert Sprang wrote:

This is not a myth or a point of argument. It is the truth. I learnt it
at
school that solder 'flows' when stressed in cold condition. And my
personal
experience proves me right too.

Almost everything "flows" under pressure. I like to think of the
process as the material being swaged or formed.

Doesn't the flow stop at some point in the process as the pressure
relaxes? After the crimp is made, a pressure equilibrium should develop
that is the point where the two pressures (the clamping force from the
terminal and the "flow" in the solder) stabilize.

There's a huge difference in flow between copper and solder. The equilibrium
with solder is on of very low pressure.


Anyway, I generally always tin stranded copper wire before I crimp a
terminal on. Have been doing it for years, and have not had any
systematic or recurring problems because of it.

Luck, I guess....

If you can give me a reference that states that tinning stranded bare
copper wires before crimping a terminal on is a bad thing to do I'll
reconsider my ways. Otherwise we are entitled to have differing opinions.

I cannot give you a reference, but I a professional installer told me that
in the Netherlands and the EU it is prohibited to tin wire before crimping.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the UL also has a similar regulation about
this.

Meindert

"The Floating Bear" wrote in message
. uk...
In article ,
(Jack Erbes) wrote:

tinning stranded bare
copper wires before crimping a terminal on is a bad thing to do

I have been told that it acts as a stress raiser at the point where the
tinning ends, and with vibration this can cause a fatigue fracture of the
wire at that point.

Correct. That is also a reason why regulations prohibit this.

Meindert