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It's over a year later (and thanks to our beta testers that couragously
installed it on their boats and your ideas on this newsgroup) but we've finally launched our 802.11 wireless NMEA server for the general public. http://www.marinewireless.us/ One of our more extravegant boats has numerous wireless laptops (1 at the helm drives the autopilot and the others are display only) so that the owner and guests can see the electronic chart and virtual instruments anywhere on the boat. I know our device is on the expensive side so if you're looking for a less expensive alternative you should also checkout ShipModul's Bluetooth MUX: http://www.shipmodul.com/en/ -Todd Todd wrote: I just want to say a big thanks to everyone on this group who responded to my post last year regarding a wireless NMEA navigation server. Based on your ideas and suggestions we've turned it into a real product and are currently beta testing it with a number of boats: http://www.marinewireless.us Anyhow, thanks again for all the feedback and help in turning this idea into reality. Now we'll just have to see if there is any real market demand for wireless navigation ;-) -Todd |
thuss wrote:
It's over a year later (and thanks to our beta testers that couragously installed it on their boats and your ideas on this newsgroup) but we've finally launched our 802.11 wireless NMEA server for the general public. http://www.marinewireless.us/ One of our more extravegant boats has numerous wireless laptops (1 at the helm drives the autopilot and the others are display only) so that the owner and guests can see the electronic chart and virtual instruments anywhere on the boat. I know our device is on the expensive side so if you're looking for a less expensive alternative you should also checkout ShipModul's Bluetooth MUX: http://www.shipmodul.com/en/ -Todd Todd wrote: I just want to say a big thanks to everyone on this group who responded to my post last year regarding a wireless NMEA navigation server. Based on your ideas and suggestions we've turned it into a real product and are currently beta testing it with a number of boats: http://www.marinewireless.us Anyhow, thanks again for all the feedback and help in turning this idea into reality. Now we'll just have to see if there is any real market demand for wireless navigation ;-) -Todd If the dollar contiues it's downward plunge, I'll soon be able to afford one! I think the 802.11b and Bluetooth will become a VHS vs. Betamax battle, with Bluetooth well in the driving seat at present. Anyone disagree? Remove "nospam" from return address. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.798 / Virus Database: 542 - Release Date: 18/11/2004 |
"thuss" wrote in message oups.com... It's over a year later (and thanks to our beta testers that couragously installed it on their boats and your ideas on this newsgroup) but we've finally launched our 802.11 wireless NMEA server for the general public. http://www.marinewireless.us/ One of our more extravegant boats has numerous wireless laptops (1 at the helm drives the autopilot and the others are display only) so that the owner and guests can see the electronic chart and virtual instruments anywhere on the boat. I know our device is on the expensive side so if you're looking for a less expensive alternative you should also checkout ShipModul's Bluetooth MUX: http://www.shipmodul.com/en/ -Todd Todd wrote: I just want to say a big thanks to everyone on this group who responded to my post last year regarding a wireless NMEA navigation server. Based on your ideas and suggestions we've turned it into a real product and are currently beta testing it with a number of boats: http://www.marinewireless.us Anyhow, thanks again for all the feedback and help in turning this idea into reality. Now we'll just have to see if there is any real market demand for wireless navigation ;-) -Todd Also consider using a Bluetooth USB-serial replacement cable, the cheapest and most flexible solution of all. Connect your GPS or your multiplexer of choice (e.g. a Brookhouse mux) to your computer via bluetooth. The computer-end plugs in a USB connection, no blue tooth support in computer required, as this a true "cable replacement". Other serial connections are also possible, e.g. with your autopilot. A number of "aircables" can be connected simultaneously. Wout |
Dennis Pogson wrote:
If the dollar contiues it's downward plunge, I'll soon be able to afford one! I think the 802.11b and Bluetooth will become a VHS vs. Betamax battle, with Bluetooth well in the driving seat at present. Anyone disagree? I disagree. They are apples and oranges. Wireless is for networking and Bluetooth for connectivity. Both are useful, but they are for very different purposes. More info he http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/...cles/art_1.htm http://www.palowireless.com/infotooth/tutorial.asp "Wired" magazine has an interesting article in the current issue about the vulnerabilities of Bluetooth. Pretty easy to steal data from or plant viruses on Bluetooth devices (phones, pda's, etc.). Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jacker at midmaine dot com |
I think the 802.11b and Bluetooth will become a VHS vs. Betamax
battle, with Bluetooth well in the driving seat at present. Anyone disagree? Hi Dennis, When we built the device we considered both Bluetooth and 802.11. One of our requirements was supporting multiple devices simultaneously wirelessly (mainly laptops but also PDA's). Bluetooth can't do that using the serial profile. You can only have one device (with the serial profile) connected to the server at a time (like a virtual serial cable). At around the same time we were talking with some interested parties (mostly in the US) and all of them already had laptops with 802.11 and a few had wireless PDA's, the majority with 802.11. In the US Bluetooth hasn't taken off nearly as much as I would have hoped. We also wanted a strong transmitter for good reception on larger yachts and commodity 802.11 200mW transmitters and external antenna's are more readily available in the US. Anyhow, if the bluetooth serial profile had supported a special 1 to many mode I think we would have gone with Bluetooth. Once we realized we were going to probably do it over TCP/IP anyhow (since our next planned product is a dual wireless instruments server and wireless access client to connect to shoreside internet while at anchor), then 802.11 became a more natural fit for us. Anyhow, that's the background of why we ended up going 802.11 instead of Bluetooth. -Todd http://www.marinewireless.us |
They are targetted at different markets/requirements. It is invalid to
compare them. Doug s/v Callista "Dennis Pogson" wrote in message ... thuss wrote: It's over a year later (and thanks to our beta testers that couragously installed it on their boats and your ideas on this newsgroup) but we've finally launched our 802.11 wireless NMEA server for the general public. http://www.marinewireless.us/ One of our more extravegant boats has numerous wireless laptops (1 at the helm drives the autopilot and the others are display only) so that the owner and guests can see the electronic chart and virtual instruments anywhere on the boat. I know our device is on the expensive side so if you're looking for a less expensive alternative you should also checkout ShipModul's Bluetooth MUX: http://www.shipmodul.com/en/ -Todd Todd wrote: I just want to say a big thanks to everyone on this group who responded to my post last year regarding a wireless NMEA navigation server. Based on your ideas and suggestions we've turned it into a real product and are currently beta testing it with a number of boats: http://www.marinewireless.us Anyhow, thanks again for all the feedback and help in turning this idea into reality. Now we'll just have to see if there is any real market demand for wireless navigation ;-) -Todd If the dollar contiues it's downward plunge, I'll soon be able to afford one! I think the 802.11b and Bluetooth will become a VHS vs. Betamax battle, with Bluetooth well in the driving seat at present. Anyone disagree? Remove "nospam" from return address. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.798 / Virus Database: 542 - Release Date: 18/11/2004 |
"Jack Erbes" wrote in message
... I disagree. They are apples and oranges. Wireless is for networking and Bluetooth for connectivity. Both are useful, but they are for very different purposes. More info he You can also setup a Piconet with Bluetooth. http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/...cles/art_1.htm http://www.palowireless.com/infotooth/tutorial.asp "Wired" magazine has an interesting article in the current issue about the vulnerabilities of Bluetooth. Pretty easy to steal data from or plant viruses on Bluetooth devices (phones, pda's, etc.). Being able to plant a virus on a phone is not the fault of bluetooth. It's the fault of the phone designers who let java stuff to be downloaded onto a phone. Meindert |
"thuss" wrote in message
ups.com... When we built the device we considered both Bluetooth and 802.11. One of our requirements was supporting multiple devices simultaneously wirelessly (mainly laptops but also PDA's). Bluetooth can't do that using the serial profile. You can only have one device (with the serial profile) connected to the server at a time (like a virtual serial cable). Yes and no. The serial profile is indeed a point to point connection. But a BT module as we use, can setup multiple serial profile connections at the same time, thus making it possible to "connect" more than one device. At around the same time we were talking with some interested parties (mostly in the US) and all of them already had laptops with 802.11 and a few had wireless PDA's, the majority with 802.11. In the US Bluetooth hasn't taken off nearly as much as I would have hoped. A pity indeed. Especially if you know how 802.11 drains the batteries of a PDA. Using a 802.11 connection on a PDA for continuous navigation will give you 2 hours of service maximum. Meindert |
Glen Wiley Wilson wrote:
Interesting. I just installed Net Stumbler on my laptop. It picked up a network in the marina with an SSID "Albin 42", so I guess it's not exactly unknown. Did you try to log onto the network? I was at a marine in Florida last April and, with their permission (they had to give the the SSID, I used their wireless network to get email and get some online support download some docs for the equipment I was installing. Later, in Baltimore, the marine there has a "cash and carry" wireless network available. You logged in, made a payment with a credit card, and got a certain amount of access time. I don't remember the specifics of costs but I considered it reasonable. I have done some wireless networking and realize that when someone puts you on an AP and a T1 network connection there are some costs that have to be paid. I did not have Net Stumbler then but do now and won't go anywhere with out it. It has been great for trouble shooting my home wireless too. If you have a PCMCIA wireless card with an external antenna connector (I like the Buffalo cards for that) you can add a higher gain external antenna and it will make a big difference in finding AP's and staying associated. Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jacker at midmaine dot com |
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:10:22 -0500, Jack Erbes
wrote: Wow, this is a really old post. I don't really remember the context. Glen Wiley Wilson wrote: Interesting. I just installed Net Stumbler on my laptop. It picked up a network in the marina with an SSID "Albin 42", so I guess it's not exactly unknown. Did you try to log onto the network? I was at a marine in Florida last April and, with their permission (they had to give the the SSID, I used their wireless network to get email and get some online support download some docs for the equipment I was installing. No, for several reasons. The main one is that it obviously belonged to the Albin 42 on the next dock, hence probably not intended for public consumption. Anyway, it had WEP enabled. Not that WEP presents any problems if you seriously want in and know what to do. Later, in Baltimore, the marine there has a "cash and carry" wireless network available. You logged in, made a payment with a credit card, and got a certain amount of access time. I don't remember the specifics of costs but I considered it reasonable. I have done some wireless networking and realize that when someone puts you on an AP and a T1 network connection there are some costs that have to be paid. Several marinas I've been to, including my home marina, use a wireless service. I tried it, was unimpressed for several reasons. Support was non-existent. Security was non-existent. Oh, you needed a password to log in, and that password was encrypted. But anything else that goes over the ether was wide open, since WEP is not enabled. A lot of critical web traffice will be secure, but things like email are wide open. Again, WEP is hardly Fort Knox, but why make it easy? In my marina, there's a college within range of their AP fer chrissake. Nothing like having a hundred or so wannabee hackers reading your email. I thought the cost was out of line. You could install a phone line and DSL for less, if you're looking at more than a few months of service. Or basic cable and a cable modem. Bear in mind, you get nothing but the connection. No news server, no email address. Very few of the marina liveaboards and regular weekenders are using the WiFi. Actually, none that I know of. For transients, the value of the service is whatever they're willing to pay, but most marinas I've been in have a spare phone line for dial-up users nowadays. Still, it's not a bad deal for a day's use. If I was doing it, I'd price with the objective of getting all the liveaboards and a lot of the regular weekenders signed up. Transients would be gravy. Their marketing pitch is off as well, in my opinion. They emphasize that you can sit by the pool and use your computer. Who does that? I did have one unorthodox use for the service when I had it. My NMEA repeater program supports network operations, so I could actually monitor a few things remotely. Wind speed and direction, obviously. I could also get tide state by watching the depth in the slip. I wrote the code to monitor laptop battery level remotely, which would tell you if AC power was off, but I never released it.. The networking feature was intended for use on the boat's network, not connecting to the outside world. Most people don't have static IP addresses, so permanent connections of that sort aren't very doable. I did not have Net Stumbler then but do now and won't go anywhere with out it. It has been great for trouble shooting my home wireless too. Yeah, it's great for that. If you have a PCMCIA wireless card with an external antenna connector (I like the Buffalo cards for that) you can add a higher gain external antenna and it will make a big difference in finding AP's and staying associated. Jack When I first started using NetStumbler, the Orinoco cards were hands down the best choice. Very litlle else was supported and they have an antenna connector. I reinstalled NS about a year ago after a hiatus and things seem to be a lot better now. The latest version even supports the onboard wireless on my new laptop. Glen __________________________________________________ __________ Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious. Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/ |
Glen "Wiley" Wilson wrote:
Wow, this is a really old post. I don't really remember the context. snip Funny, my newserver just dredged it up and served it to me for some reason. I'd probably have not posted had I noticed that. But thanks for replying, I appreciate the info an your opion on the other considerations. Jack -- Jack Erbes in Ellsworth, Maine, USA - jackerbes at adelphia dot net (also receiving email at jacker at midmaine.com) |
"thuss" wrote in
oups.com: http://www.marinewireless.us/ Wow! $800 is kinda PRICEY! PAY, BOATERS, PAY! I've had a wireless LAN on board Lionheart, an Amel Sharki 41' ketch, for some time. A Compaq Latitude notebook runs The Cap'n nav software. The router is a Netgear 802.11b WEP-protected wireless unit. The serial to Ethernet interface is plugged directly into it. It's a WebFoot WF-1 serial to Ethernet interface with full DHCP-enabled automatic IP assignment from the Netgear router's DHCP server to all its LAN devices. Here's the little device: http://www.stayonline.com/serial_to_ethernet/3311.asp I see it's price here is about $60 more than I paid for ours. The serial port is hooked to the boat's NMEA multiplexer serial port. Webfoot includes a "virtual serial port" program that runs on the notebook through the network. NMEA-enabled programs merely connect to this faux-serial-port dll spoofing them as COM3 on Windoze 2000. The Cap'n comes online thinking the virtual serial port is connected directly to the multiplexer. No interface setup is necessary. It's a LOT less than $800!! WebFoot - $110 Netgear Wireless Router - $90 Software virtual serial port - free We also use a network-shared little HP printer plugged into the same router's 4-port Ethernet hub. If you're laying on a beanbag in the bow (on lookout, of course) steering the boat by LAN to the B&G autopilot with The Cap'n.....you can printout the chart by remote control via the network router for the person at our nav table....who's plotting on paper chart with the B&G Yeoman electronic plotting board I stuck to the plotting table's lift top. I can send that Yeoman waypoints from the wireless notebook as we toodle along, too....(c; |
Hi Larry,
I agree about your comments regarding price, $800 puts it out of the price range of your average budget cruiser. I would love to see more people (like you've done) coming out posting HOWTO's on how to create an inexpensive wireless navigation solution on-board. We can't compete (nor are we trying to) with hobbyists or highly technical folks rolling their own using commodity components. For example our cost on the 200mW 802.11 transmitter and high gain antenna we include in the unit (which is one of the best out there but only a small portion of the total unit) costs more than the entire Netgear wireless access point you make reference to. Our objective was to create a very high quality single 12-24V unit that connects to the multiplexer and makes the NMEA data available to multiple laptops running at the same time. Due to the size of the market and our costs (including customer support) $800 makes it a break even proposition for us at the moment. I wish we had the budget and potential market size of a Netgear or Linksys, in which case we could offer it for $100. For folks who want to use Bluetooth or who are on a budget, you can't go wrong to checkout Shipmodul's Bluetooth multiplexer, it's very cool. Either way, I'm excited by products of the likes of TackTick and Shipmodul that are making out of the box wireless navigation a reality today! Best, Todd -- Marine Wireless http://www.marinewireless.us Larry W4CSC wrote: "thuss" wrote in oups.com: http://www.marinewireless.us/ Wow! $800 is kinda PRICEY! PAY, BOATERS, PAY! I've had a wireless LAN on board Lionheart, an Amel Sharki 41' ketch, for some time. A Compaq Latitude notebook runs The Cap'n nav software. The router is a Netgear 802.11b WEP-protected wireless unit. The serial to Ethernet interface is plugged directly into it. It's a WebFoot WF-1 serial to Ethernet interface with full DHCP-enabled automatic IP assignment from the Netgear router's DHCP server to all its LAN devices. Here's the little device: http://www.stayonline.com/serial_to_ethernet/3311.asp I see it's price here is about $60 more than I paid for ours. The serial port is hooked to the boat's NMEA multiplexer serial port. Webfoot includes a "virtual serial port" program that runs on the notebook through the network. NMEA-enabled programs merely connect to this faux-serial-port dll spoofing them as COM3 on Windoze 2000. The Cap'n comes online thinking the virtual serial port is connected directly to the multiplexer. No interface setup is necessary. It's a LOT less than $800!! WebFoot - $110 Netgear Wireless Router - $90 Software virtual serial port - free We also use a network-shared little HP printer plugged into the same router's 4-port Ethernet hub. If you're laying on a beanbag in the bow (on lookout, of course) steering the boat by LAN to the B&G autopilot with The Cap'n.....you can printout the chart by remote control via the network router for the person at our nav table....who's plotting on paper chart with the B&G Yeoman electronic plotting board I stuck to the plotting table's lift top. I can send that Yeoman waypoints from the wireless notebook as we toodle along, too....(c; |
"thuss" wrote in
ups.com: For folks who want to use Bluetooth or who are on a budget, you can't go wrong to checkout Shipmodul's Bluetooth multiplexer, it's very cool. Either way, I'm excited by products of the likes of TackTick and Shipmodul that are making out of the box wireless navigation a reality today! Best, Todd Now, if we could just DUMP all this old serial, one talker, crap and get "them" to put in a DHCP compatible TCP/IP addressable port on every piece of marine electronics....oh wouldn't that be nice....(c; Talking to marine electronics reminds me of talking to a Commodore 64 with no tape drive.... I'm not sure Bluetooth is the answer. Bluetooth doesn't have enough RANGE, made for 32 ft like it is. That's 32 ft of FREE space, not 32 ft buried in the wiring of a boat with all the noises generated by all the unshielded, plastic-encased electronic transmitters square-waving the spectrum. No, just bury the Ethernet cabling into the hull to a nice router/hub system and plug all the toys into it. Any toy can talk to any other toy through the IP addresses the router has a virtual unlimited (not 16) number of. No conflicts with too many talkers and the packets are all taken care of by the system. 802.11x wireless is fine. All the operational notebooks are already configured to let the ship's DHCP server automatically configure them, whether they be hard plugged into a port in your stateroom, the bridge, the salon or on wireless laid out next to you in your deck chair. No "interface" is necessary and the world is already full of off- the-shelf stuff to make it happen. Hell, we can even connect the ship's VoIP phones and Satphone data ports to everything. Who would need the mostly-nonfunctional GMDSS, which I don't think will ever work properly, because of its idiotic limitations? Got an emergency aboard? No problem. Press the red-button and the ShipLAN calls USCG's server...DIRECTLY...to report our position. Pickup any phone on the boat and talk from our VoIP phones to the USCG operator-on-duty. That wouldn't be new technology. It's already installed! All I need to make it happen is Ethernet-enabled marine instruments.....like industry has been using for years. Of course, this would require NMEA's manufacturers to stop leaving unshielded, unbalanced wires hanging out of some $50, proprietary rubber plug noone can get after the manufacturer loses interest in this model.....(c; Bluetooth is too weak to depend upon for life-or-death data. All the important instruments need to be hard wired with Ethernet to a central router, or even redundant routers. Being able to have a hub any place you like connected to just ONE Ethernet between points, such as the hub at the helm to the hub at the nav station someplace else makes sense, too. Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... "thuss" wrote in ups.com: serial rant/ethernet promotion snipped Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... Imagine what it would to to the prices of all fairly cheap instruments the moment they need a more powerfull processor and more memory to run a TCP/IP stack...... Meindert |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
: Imagine what it would to to the prices of all fairly cheap instruments the moment they need a more powerfull processor and more memory to run a TCP/IP stack...... Meindert What processor? Off-the-shelf components used to interface cheap computers to TCP/IP? http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/f/network.htm http://www.chipcatalog.com/Cat/99.htm Here's a whole Ethernet IP communications device on one IC... http://www.anybus.com/eng/products/p...ctType=AnyBus- IC Oh, oh....I forgot.....these are STANDARIZED parts, not NMEA manufacturer proprietaries.....(c; Yeah, they'd raise the price $10/unit, I suppose. Think the market would bear it if everything could talk to everything else? |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "thuss" wrote in ups.com: Talking to marine electronics reminds me of talking to a Commodore 64 with no tape drive.... Please don't demean the Commodore 64...marine electronics is still in the Sinclair/Timex computer status, without the rubber bands to hold the extra memory module in place. I did invest in an aftermarket tape drive clean up device (I suspect it was a Schmidt trigger to regenerate cleaner pulses). I remember Commodore 64/128 disc drives as proprietary also...copywrite protection would bang the heads against the front stop until it mechanically moved. I made a lot of money to invest in ham gear by having a Commodore alignment disc and a scope...loosen the painted front stop screws and adjust the heads for the best scope pattern from the alignment reference disc and retighten the screws. I charged $ 15 a disc drive for that. If only marine electronics interfaces would get out of the dark ages... 73 Doug K7ABX |
In article ,
Larry W4CSC wrote: Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... check out the Furuno commercial stuff......It's all ethernet..... Me |
On 2005-02-02 04:08:52 +1100, Larry W4CSC said:
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in : Imagine what it would to to the prices of all fairly cheap instruments the moment they need a more powerfull processor and more memory to run a TCP/IP stack...... Meindert What processor? Off-the-shelf components used to interface cheap computers to TCP/IP? http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/f/network.htm http://www.chipcatalog.com/Cat/99.htm Here's a whole Ethernet IP communications device on one IC... http://www.anybus.com/eng/products/p...ctType=AnyBus- IC Oh, oh....I forgot.....these are STANDARIZED parts, not NMEA manufacturer proprietaries.....(c; Yeah, they'd raise the price $10/unit, I suppose. Think the market would bear it if everything could talk to everything else? Well I can't resist! The use of the TCP/IP stack for this application is just plain stupid! Every recently manufactured car and there are a hell of a lot of them has the Bosch 2 wire Controller Area Network (CAN) communications bus connecting all the various elctronic controllers. This bus is also the basis of NMEA 2000 spec. This technology was designed for noisey environments, is robust and has very high levels of silicon integration to get data on and off the bus. BTW don't trash the technology just because the NMEA marketing arm has it's 'head stuffed where the sun don't shine' It works very well in the auto industry worldwide and should work as well in the marine industry if the NMEA can get over their big boys club attitude to licensing IP! Meindert is right TCP/IP is just plain stupid overkill! -- Regards, John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789 S/V Chagall |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... "Meindert Sprang" wrote in : What processor? Off-the-shelf components used to interface cheap computers to TCP/IP? http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/f/network.htm http://www.chipcatalog.com/Cat/99.htm These chips are all tranceivers or basic ethernet chips. They need a processor to run a TCP/IP stack. Here's a whole Ethernet IP communications device on one IC... http://www.anybus.com/eng/products/p...ctType=AnyBus- IC Nice devices, but they are expensive. Similar devices from Lantronix for instance do the entire TCP/IP trick for you, but they cost $40-$50 in large quantities. That would increase the average sales price $100-$150 for each ethernet based instrument. Yeah, they'd raise the price $10/unit, I suppose. See above.... Meindert |
"Me" wrote in message
... In article , Larry W4CSC wrote: Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... check out the Furuno commercial stuff......It's all ethernet..... Show me a Furuno GPS, fishfinder or fluxgate sensor with ethernet... Meindert |
"John Proctor" wrote in message
news:2005020207275816807%lost@nowhereorg... On 2005-02-02 04:08:52 +1100, Larry W4CSC said: BTW don't trash the technology just because the NMEA marketing arm has it's 'head stuffed where the sun don't shine' It works very well in the auto industry worldwide and should work as well in the marine industry if the NMEA can get over their big boys club attitude to licensing IP! Meindert is right TCP/IP is just plain stupid overkill! Hear hear! And indeed, NMEA should drop the prices. It's just too expensive for small companies to pay $10,500 to get on the NMEA2000 train.... B.t.w.: it is not that hard to come up with a protocol/interface that combines the simplicity of NMEA, the multi-talker features of SeaTalk and the robustness of CAN for just a $1-2 per unit. Meindert |
Wow...it's like a bunch of hornets in here defending their nests....er, ah,
NMEA multiplexer businesses...... "Meindert Sprang" wrote in : "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Larry W4CSC wrote: Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... check out the Furuno commercial stuff......It's all ethernet..... Show me a Furuno GPS, fishfinder or fluxgate sensor with ethernet... Meindert |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
: "John Proctor" wrote in message news:2005020207275816807%lost@nowhereorg... On 2005-02-02 04:08:52 +1100, Larry W4CSC said: BTW don't trash the technology just because the NMEA marketing arm has it's 'head stuffed where the sun don't shine' It works very well in the auto industry worldwide and should work as well in the marine industry if the NMEA can get over their big boys club attitude to licensing IP! Meindert is right TCP/IP is just plain stupid overkill! Hear hear! And indeed, NMEA should drop the prices. It's just too expensive for small companies to pay $10,500 to get on the NMEA2000 train.... Same game they're playing with the yachtsmen. Planned obsolescence. Look around any marina at the dead carcasses of NMEA's past renditions..... How many NMEA serial port versions have there been? First we played the data speed game. Then we "expanded" the protocol instructions. Of course noone was to blame.....everyone was to blame. |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
: Show me a Furuno GPS, fishfinder or fluxgate sensor with ethernet... Meindert Furuno calls Ethernet "Navnet"....so it can be sold at exhorbitant prices, in case someone knows what Ethernet stuff costs...(c; http://www.hfradio.com/furuno.htm I have no experience with it, but from all I've read you simply plug it into an Ethernet hub....er, ah....instead of some little NMEA multiplexer box that only has a few ports....(c; Use a Netgear hub. They work best for the money.... Here, educate yourself away from the NMEA stuff for a change.... http://www.furuno.com/Furuno/Doc/0/A.../NavNet+Brochu re+4-12-04.pdf (add the lines together. Damned embedded cookies.) MODEL IP ADDRESS alternate HOST NAME alternate 1722/1732/1742/1762 172.031.003.004 172.031.003.006 RADAR RADAR1 1722C/1732C/1742C/1762C 172.031.003.001 172.031.003.007 RADAR RADAR2 1833/1933/1943 172.031.003.002 172.031.003.008 RADAR RADAR3 1833C/1933C/1943C/1953C 172.031.003.003 172.031.003.009 RADAR RADAR4 GP-1700 172.031.014.002 172.031.014.010 PLOTTER PLOTTER1 GP-1700C 172.031.014.001 172.031.014.011 PLOTTER PLOTTER2 GP-1900C 172.031.003.005 172.031.003.012 PLOTTER PLOTTER3 BBFF1 172.031.092.001 Do not change SOUNDER Do not change NOTE: Display writes any changed information to the BBFF1network card for retention. Displaying digital temperature and depth on NavNet display(s), (using BBFF1 as source) Configure using [MENU] (default setting is NMEA for an external source) [SYSTEM CONFIGURATION] [GENERAL SETUP] (use [NMEA] to display input from external depth / temperature devices) TEMPERATURE SOURCE [ETR] (transducers with temperature sensor only) DEPTH SOURCE [ETR] Here's the IP address for the various models. Unfortunately, none of these are STANDARDLY compatible with DHCP-enabled routers. Too bad they didn't make all of them DHCP-enabled so any ol' kid's router could have had more control over all of them....(sigh) |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
: "Me" wrote in message ... In article , Larry W4CSC wrote: Just dreaming.....We'll be stuck with NMEA or some other proprietary nonsense like Raymarine's or B&G's or other non-compatible stuff forever. As long as they'll keep BUYING IT...... check out the Furuno commercial stuff......It's all ethernet..... Show me a Furuno GPS, fishfinder or fluxgate sensor with ethernet... Meindert Oops....forgot the pointer to Furuno's Quick Reference Card for the Navnet Ethernet... http://www.furuno.com/Furuno/Doc/0/6.../NavNet+Quick+ reference+(rev25).pdf Damned wordwrap. |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... "Meindert Sprang" wrote in : Show me a Furuno GPS, fishfinder or fluxgate sensor with ethernet... Meindert Furuno calls Ethernet "Navnet"....so it can be sold at exhorbitant prices, in case someone knows what Ethernet stuff costs...(c; I know that Larry, but the devices I mentioned, do not even have Navnet, just plain NMEA..... Navnet AKA ethernet adds so much cost to a device that you only see it on the chartplotters and multifunction units that already cost a few couple of grand. And you can see that with all manufacturers. If ethernet was really that cheap, why wouldn't all manufacturers have already equipped all of their products with ethernet? Meindert |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... Wow...it's like a bunch of hornets in here defending their nests....er, ah, NMEA multiplexer businesses...... Sure. Especially when people start talking nonsense. Meindert |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... How many NMEA serial port versions have there been? First we played the data speed game. Then we "expanded" the protocol instructions. What's your point? This has happened with ethernet as well (coax, twisted pair, 10,100 and 1000Mbit...) Meindert |
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:14:46 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote: I know that Larry, but the devices I mentioned, do not even have Navnet, just plain NMEA..... Navnet AKA ethernet adds so much cost to a device that you only see it on the chartplotters and multifunction units that already cost a few couple of grand. And you can see that with all manufacturers. If ethernet was really that cheap, why wouldn't all manufacturers have already equipped all of their products with ethernet? The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is under $15 retail nowadays. Product cycles are a lot slower in marine instruments than computers, but I would expect anything new to have ethernet. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record? For better or worse? |
"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
... The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is under $15 retail nowadays. You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack. You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine instruments. Meindert |
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
wrote: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message .. . The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is under $15 retail nowadays. You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack. You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine instruments. Meindert I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate it. But not 15 year old parts. I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology. If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a particular instrument is. If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989, It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it until such redesign is happening for other reasons. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
On 2005-02-02 17:17:29 +1100, "Meindert Sprang"
said: "Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... How many NMEA serial port versions have there been? First we played the data speed game. Then we "expanded" the protocol instructions. What's your point? This has happened with ethernet as well (coax, twisted pair, 10,100 and 1000Mbit...) Meindert Don't forget industry consolidation too! Simrad bought out Navico, support for Navico POOF. Try to get support for that brand now! B&G users please take note. That's why when I chucked out my Navico GPS and autopilot I went with Raymarine! It is a fact that technology is accellerating and if you need to stay at the bleeding edge you pay a price. Sometimes it is worth it but I fear most times it is not. Marketing departments are there to create a need, often when none exists ;-) I know as I spent 25 years in sales and marketing in the IT & T sector. Now talk about bleeding bloody edge ..... -- Regards, John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789 S/V Chagall |
On 2005-02-03 06:50:16 +1100, Rodney Myrvaagnes said:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang" wrote: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is under $15 retail nowadays. You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack. You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine instruments. Meindert I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate it. But not 15 year old parts. I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology. If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a particular instrument is. If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989, It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it until such redesign is happening for other reasons. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." See my previous post on CAN bus implementation. If ethernet is so damn ubiquitous and so cheap why the hell has it not taken over the factory floor or the automotive industry? Yes there are a small number of ethernet devices which support process automation but not many. Horses for courses and TCP/IP is not it for the marine environment except for the military who can do anything with your tax dollars ;-) -- Regards, John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789 S/V Chagall |
"John Proctor" wrote in message news:2005020307142075249%lost@nowhereorg... On 2005-02-03 06:50:16 +1100, Rodney Myrvaagnes said: On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:23:33 +0100, "Meindert Sprang" wrote: "Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message ... The cheapest notebooks all have ethernet NICs in them. A PCI NIC is under $15 retail nowadays. You obviously do not get the point. A NIC for in a PC is a dumb device and needs network drivers on the PC to operate. That is called the TCP/IP stack. You cannot simply hook up a cheap NIC to a tiny microcontroller in an instrument and expect it to run a TCP/IP stack. It simply does not have the memory and the processing power for that. And indeed, it is also a matter of numbers. PCI NIC are produced in much larger quantities than marine instruments. Meindert I do get the point. A PIC-12 microcontroller (0.20 USD?) couldn't handle the stack, but it wouldn't run most instruments either. If you are spending, say 5 USD for the controller and memory, an incremental increase in clock speed and memory, say 0.50, would easily accommodate it. But not 15 year old parts. I still think the long product cycle and small volume are the determining factors, not the present day cost of the technology. If a company as big as Furuno, already conscious of the value of ethernet, sees a competitive advantage in adding it to existing equipment, it will depend on what the current processor inside a particular instrument is. If the processor architecture is a still-developing family, they may be able to add TCP/IP without changing the board design or the firmware significantly. If it is some antique, like the 8085s I found in some instruments (networked, BTW) on a boat I bought used in 1989, It would probably require a total redesign, and they wouldn't do it until such redesign is happening for other reasons. Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." See my previous post on CAN bus implementation. If ethernet is so damn ubiquitous and so cheap why the hell has it not taken over the factory floor or the automotive industry? Yes there are a small number of ethernet devices which support process automation but not many. Horses for courses and TCP/IP is not it for the marine environment except for the military who can do anything with your tax dollars ;-) Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime apps, but other protocols are better suited. Doug s/v Callista -- Regards, John Proctor VK3JP, VKV6789 S/V Chagall |
"Meindert Sprang" wrote in
: I know that Larry, but the devices I mentioned, do not even have Navnet, just plain NMEA..... Navnet AKA ethernet adds so much cost to a device that you only see it on the chartplotters and multifunction units that already cost a few couple of grand. And you can see that with all manufacturers. If ethernet was really that cheap, why wouldn't all manufacturers have already equipped all of their products with ethernet? Meindert Ah, but your challenge to the poster was to quote these items on Ethernet. The poster was talking about large commercial ships, which have lots of Ethernet things, now, from the communications devices back to the company to the engine control room. |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message ... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in news:Bqidnb- : Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime apps, but other protocols are better suited. Doug s/v Callista It hasn't "done well" in cars for the same reason it hasn't been done in boats.....proprietary obsolescence! Wrong. I've never been on the factory floor and never intend to go, either. Wrong. Do factories put up with this proprietary bull****, too? Yes. |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in news:Bqidnb- : Ethernet has not done well on the factory floor or the automotive industry because its behaviour is not deterministic for real-time use. Some efforts have gone into making it better for hard realtime apps, but other protocols are better suited. Doug s/v Callista It hasn't "done well" in cars for the same reason it hasn't been done in boats.....proprietary obsolescence! Nonsense. In cars, CAN is used. For CAN, highly integrated chips are available for, for instance, a mirror controller: a single chip with CAN interface and high power outputs to drive the motor. All protocol stuff is inside this chip. Such simple solutions do not exist with ethernet. I've never been on the factory floor and never intend to go, either. And on factory floors, there's a lot of FieldBus, Modbus etc, all serial RS-485. At the toplevels where timing is not critical, ethernet is used for collecting data to be displayed and for transport of other non-time critical data. Do factories put up with this proprietary bull****, too? No. Modbus and Fieldbus are well documented protocols, open to anyone who wants to use it. Meindert |
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
... "Meindert Sprang" wrote in : Ah, but your challenge to the poster was to quote these items on Ethernet. The poster was talking about large commercial ships, which have lots of Ethernet things, now, from the communications devices back to the company to the engine control room. I know that too. Mostly Modbus or Fieldbus over either serial or ethernet. But even there, the smallest devices only have serial interfaces.So a lot of money goes into the serial to ethernet converters. Meindert |
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