hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Goal:
* Minimum fuss 3-30MHz operation, mostly on 5-15MHz.
* Will use step-dowm RF transformer between antenna and low impedance
coax
* May use autotuner on TX
* Like the wirecage antennas still today seen on many a military
vessel.

Available on roof:
- 25ft steel structure (like piramid base for power line)
- about 100 feet space in one direction
-...to abandoned flue chimney, 100ft away and 10 feet lower than base
of steel structure
- roof covered with alu plates on tar (could be all arc welded
together, perhaps.

THIS LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE A SHIP TO ME cept its' 120ft aboveground.

I want to build a wire cage monopole
- sloping down from steel tower
- using tower as counterpoise
- feedpoint at top of sloper, via stepdown rf transfomrer, grounded to
tower
- coax cable lead, with rf choke coils and surge suppressors.

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Current plan config:
- length 14 m = 2 x 4m straight sections, + 2 x 3m truncated cubes
- spreaders at 3-7-11 m
- 140 cm dia. spreaders, each made with two waterproofed bamboo
triangles in "star of David" configuration; wire kept parallel at 70cm
distance from each orther.
- material: .8mm copperclad, abt. 90 m (270 ft) total.

Any hints, like more/fewer parallel wires, broader / smaller
spreaders, different materials, dirrerent antenna wire, RF
downtransformer, whatever?

Filippo

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

SpamLover wrote:

Goal:
* Minimum fuss 3-30MHz operation, mostly on 5-15MHz.
* Will use step-dowm RF transformer between antenna and low impedance
coax
* May use autotuner on TX
* Like the wirecage antennas still today seen on many a military
vessel.

Available on roof:
- 25ft steel structure (like piramid base for power line)
- about 100 feet space in one direction
-...to abandoned flue chimney, 100ft away and 10 feet lower than base
of steel structure
- roof covered with alu plates on tar (could be all arc welded
together, perhaps.

THIS LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE A SHIP TO ME cept its' 120ft aboveground.

I want to build a wire cage monopole
- sloping down from steel tower
- using tower as counterpoise
- feedpoint at top of sloper, via stepdown rf transfomrer, grounded to
tower
- coax cable lead, with rf choke coils and surge suppressors.

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Current plan config:
- length 14 m = 2 x 4m straight sections, + 2 x 3m truncated cubes
- spreaders at 3-7-11 m
- 140 cm dia. spreaders, each made with two waterproofed bamboo
triangles in "star of David" configuration; wire kept parallel at 70cm
distance from each orther.
- material: .8mm copperclad, abt. 90 m (270 ft) total.

Any hints, like more/fewer parallel wires, broader / smaller
spreaders, different materials, dirrerent antenna wire, RF
downtransformer, whatever?

Filippo

Why?

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

On 29 Oct 2003 15:40:28 -0800, (SpamLover) wrote:

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Hi OM,

http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante.../Cage/cage.htm

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Hi OM,

http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante.../Cage/cage.htm

Ahhhh man, there is this home I pass by at least once or twice a week that
has this antenna on top of his home. I didn't really know what it was, I
do now. :-)

Looks pretty wild to the driver-by

--
^~^~^Monitoring The Spectrum^~^~^~^
*********Hammarlund129X & 140X**********
^^^^^^^^Heathkit Q Multiplier^^^^^^^^^
*~*~++++++GO BEARCATS++++++~*~*~
GE P-780

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Thank you Richard!

N8KDV: Why?

Goals:
- single antenna setup
- little or no need for tuner, or at least little need of re-tuning
every 3 kHz
- effective broadband response, i.e. low likelyhood of really dead
spots thru the spectrum
- unlike a T2FD, still very usable on MF/LF for listening using an
ultrabroadband double-transformer impedance adaptor (receive-only
types, confirmed usable for QRP)
- compromises accepted for efficiency, radiation pattern

It is really telling that professional setups hardly ever optimize for
narrowband coverage. The cage-discone is a prime example.

If you trawl the web, you find many examples of very rough "vertical
monopoles", and I have seen they fall into 2 main categories:
- multiple vertical masts (usually 2 or 3), with a symmetrical
horizontal crossbar, fed from a broadband transformer, cold end
grounded to ship deck
- cage designs, either cage-discone or just a huge paunchy
ellipsoid-like cage.

Either way, SWR may wag a little, impedance mismatch is roughly dealt
with by transformer, and a big whocares for rad pattern etc etc. This
is what you need for spreadspectrum, ALE, multiplexing etc. Multi-kW
transmitters help. Some of those commercial military designs are
rated for tens of kW continuous. At most, I'll put 5W into this
thing. Maybe.

Richard, your design seems to favor a lot of parallel wires, but the
big improvement in broadbanding seems to be going from 1 to 2-3 wires.
Does the model confirm that? I have no modeling SW - what do you use?

Also, everyone,

- any hints at to whether wire diameter matters? Commercial antennas
have EITHER lots of wires OR thick masts. Is that out of mechanical
or electrical considerations?

- what are the dimensions of typical HF multiwire monopoles in actual
use on ships?

and

- don't u thing a multiwire cage sloper looks ubercool too?? a real
neighbour-pleaser!

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

On 30 Oct 2003 00:56:28 -0800, (SpamLover) wrote:


Richard, your design seems to favor a lot of parallel wires, but the
big improvement in broadbanding seems to be going from 1 to 2-3 wires.
Does the model confirm that? I have no modeling SW - what do you use?

Also, everyone,

- any hints at to whether wire diameter matters? Commercial antennas
have EITHER lots of wires OR thick masts. Is that out of mechanical
or electrical considerations?

- what are the dimensions of typical HF multiwire monopoles in actual
use on ships?

and

- don't u thing a multiwire cage sloper looks ubercool too?? a real
neighbour-pleaser!

Hi Filippo,

More wires, smoother passband. Less wires, more mismatches. If you
want one thicker element rather than more wire, it will have to be
roughly the same diameter as the cage presented at my page. No free
lunches at the Maxwell Cafe.

The model is available at that page, you can find a restricted version
of EZNEC at (predictably):
http://www.eznec.com/
It won't allow you to do analysis for this model (unless you cut loose
the $89), but you can view the design and the particulars (like wire
size, length, distance above ground, etc.).

I have a photograph of a pre-WWII battleship sitting above my
workstation here. Within the field of view is a cage dipole end (from
the photographer's perspective of being above the after gun turret, it
is quite close with six wires at a diameter of at least 18 inches).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Right!

the big improvement in broadbanding seems to be going
from 1 to 2-3 wires.
Rather, from 1 to a lot of wires OR to 2 or 3 THICK self supporting
masts.

More wires, smoother passband. Less wires, more mismatches.
I have checked a couple of things:

1) Land based cage monopoles. Typically:
- height: .24 lambda at the lowest frequency
- max diameter: .18 lambda at almost half height
- up to 24 / 36 wires
- ground plane with at least 24 wires
- bandwidth easily 7:1

2) Pix of dipoles spotted atop Russian embassies, eyeballed based on
height of balcony railings
- 6 conductors
- spacers approx. 1 m diameter, every 3 m
- poles typically 10-12 m each

If you
No free lunches at the Maxwell Cafe.
Whence the success of the Maxwell House brand.

http://www.eznec.com/
No free lunch there either. The demo only does 20 elements. If I did
an 8-wire cage in decent sized diameter stainless steel rope, it would
set me back in the 100s at my local prices, so I might as well buy the
SW and learn to use it.

The copperclad steel MIG continuous welding wire I was testing has
rusted in ONE NIGHT under the fall rain. I'll look for a source of
stainless welding wire. I have a single wire sloper up for the last 4
years and it looks absolutely new - courtesy of the head of mechanical
maintenance at a cement factory I did consulting at.

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

The only difference in performance between a cage antenna and an ordinary
thin-wire dipole is a modest increase in bandwidth. There is no increase in
radiating/receiving efficience.

The increase in bandwidth is much less than is popularly supposed and may
not be considered worth the extra construction costs and inconvenience.

To predict resonant frequency, bandwidth and a few other characteristics
from overall length, number of cage wires from 1 to N, and wire diameter,
download program DIPCAGE from website below.

Download DIPCAGE in a few seconds, no unzipping inconvenience, run
immediately.
----
=======================
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software
go to http://www.g4fgq.com
=======================

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Might I suggest electric fence wire, a 1/4 mile spool is under $8.00. 19 AWG
and designed for outdoor use.

I have used cage dipoles for years and it has worked well for me. I normally
use 6 wires and slices of 12" diameter plastic sewer pipe cut to 1/4 inch
thickness and 6 holes drilled every 60 degrees(slightly larger than your
wire). on 80 meters I use 4 rings per side equally spaced. the rings are
held in place by winding a short piece of wire around the plastic and
twisting it on each side of the ring to the antenna element.



"SpamLover" wrote in message
om...
Right!

the big improvement in broadbanding seems to be going
from 1 to 2-3 wires.
Rather, from 1 to a lot of wires OR to 2 or 3 THICK self supporting
masts.

More wires, smoother passband. Less wires, more mismatches.
I have checked a couple of things:

1) Land based cage monopoles. Typically:
- height: .24 lambda at the lowest frequency
- max diameter: .18 lambda at almost half height
- up to 24 / 36 wires
- ground plane with at least 24 wires
- bandwidth easily 7:1

2) Pix of dipoles spotted atop Russian embassies, eyeballed based on
height of balcony railings
- 6 conductors
- spacers approx. 1 m diameter, every 3 m
- poles typically 10-12 m each

If you
No free lunches at the Maxwell Cafe.
Whence the success of the Maxwell House brand.

http://www.eznec.com/
No free lunch there either. The demo only does 20 elements. If I did
an 8-wire cage in decent sized diameter stainless steel rope, it would
set me back in the 100s at my local prices, so I might as well buy the
SW and learn to use it.

The copperclad steel MIG continuous welding wire I was testing has
rusted in ONE NIGHT under the fall rain. I'll look for a source of
stainless welding wire. I have a single wire sloper up for the last 4
years and it looks absolutely new - courtesy of the head of mechanical
maintenance at a cement factory I did consulting at.

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Reg, in A/B tests with a standard dipole, the cage was "quieter". That is, I
am able to hear weaker signals with less noise. Anecdotal at best, but keeps
me using one.

I am under 2:1 from 3575 to 3925 with no tuner. I suspect that if I were
using copper Vs the fence wire the Q would be higher and the results more in
agreement with your cage program.

Besides it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling and impresses the neighbors.


"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
The only difference in performance between a cage antenna and an ordinary
thin-wire dipole is a modest increase in bandwidth. There is no increase
in
radiating/receiving efficience.

The increase in bandwidth is much less than is popularly supposed and may
not be considered worth the extra construction costs and inconvenience.

To predict resonant frequency, bandwidth and a few other characteristics
from overall length, number of cage wires from 1 to N, and wire diameter,
download program DIPCAGE from website below.

Download DIPCAGE in a few seconds, no unzipping inconvenience, run
immediately.
----
=======================
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software
go to http://www.g4fgq.com
=======================

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Go here
rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors

good luck



"SpamLover" wrote in message
m...
Goal:
* Minimum fuss 3-30MHz operation, mostly on 5-15MHz.
* Will use step-dowm RF transformer between antenna and low impedance
coax
* May use autotuner on TX
* Like the wirecage antennas still today seen on many a military
vessel.

Available on roof:
- 25ft steel structure (like piramid base for power line)
- about 100 feet space in one direction
-...to abandoned flue chimney, 100ft away and 10 feet lower than base
of steel structure
- roof covered with alu plates on tar (could be all arc welded
together, perhaps.

THIS LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE A SHIP TO ME cept its' 120ft aboveground.

I want to build a wire cage monopole
- sloping down from steel tower
- using tower as counterpoise
- feedpoint at top of sloper, via stepdown rf transfomrer, grounded to
tower
- coax cable lead, with rf choke coils and surge suppressors.

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Current plan config:
- length 14 m = 2 x 4m straight sections, + 2 x 3m truncated cubes
- spreaders at 3-7-11 m
- 140 cm dia. spreaders, each made with two waterproofed bamboo
triangles in "star of David" configuration; wire kept parallel at 70cm
distance from each orther.
- material: .8mm copperclad, abt. 90 m (270 ft) total.

Any hints, like more/fewer parallel wires, broader / smaller
spreaders, different materials, dirrerent antenna wire, RF
downtransformer, whatever?

Filippo

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Dear W4JLE

I think you should be aware that, as perceived at the receiver end, the
characteristics of the feedline, its length and SWR, and tuner can have at
least as great an effect on operating bandwidth as the antenna constuction
itself. Antenna height above ground can seriously affect bandwidth.
Lowering height can increase bandwidth more than changing from from a thin
wire to big fat cage.

There's far too much attention paid to the subject of wire diameter by the
gurus who have heard a rumour that wire diameter increases bandwidth and
can't resist repeating the story on every possible occasion. I produced the
program to put the matter into quantitative perspective.

As for a fat antenna's remarkable ability to distinguish favourably between
signals and noise I can suggest only that your A-B tests were not quite what
you thought they were. Displacement, orientation, noise in a null,
different receiver?

With MY neighbours the only warm fuzzy feelings have to be alcohol-assisted.
---
Reg
====================================

"w4jle" W4JLE(remove this to wrote in message
...
Reg, in A/B tests with a standard dipole, the cage was "quieter". That is,
I
am able to hear weaker signals with less noise. Anecdotal at best, but
keeps
me using one.

I am under 2:1 from 3575 to 3925 with no tuner. I suspect that if I were
using copper Vs the fence wire the Q would be higher and the results more
in
agreement with your cage program.

Besides it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling and impresses the neighbors.


"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
The only difference in performance between a cage antenna and an
ordinary
thin-wire dipole is a modest increase in bandwidth. There is no
increase
in
radiating/receiving efficience.

The increase in bandwidth is much less than is popularly supposed and
may
not be considered worth the extra construction costs and inconvenience.

To predict resonant frequency, bandwidth and a few other characteristics
from overall length, number of cage wires from 1 to N, and wire
diameter,
download program DIPCAGE from website below.

Download DIPCAGE in a few seconds, no unzipping inconvenience, run
immediately.
----
=======================
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software
go to http://www.g4fgq.com
=======================

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

SpamLover,

http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante.../Cage/cage.htm

http://www2.arrl.org/news/stories/2001/05/03/2/

http://www.pust-norden.de/oloog/oloog-2_gr.jpg

http://www.qsl.net/wa2tvs/antennas/archive17.htm

http://www.antenna.be/tel-ave0640.html


iane ~ RHF
..
..
= = = (SpamLover)
= = = wrote in message om...
Goal:
* Minimum fuss 3-30MHz operation, mostly on 5-15MHz.
* Will use step-dowm RF transformer between antenna and low impedance
coax
* May use autotuner on TX
* Like the wirecage antennas still today seen on many a military
vessel.

Available on roof:
- 25ft steel structure (like piramid base for power line)
- about 100 feet space in one direction
-...to abandoned flue chimney, 100ft away and 10 feet lower than base
of steel structure
- roof covered with alu plates on tar (could be all arc welded
together, perhaps.

THIS LOOKS PRETTY MUCH LIKE A SHIP TO ME cept its' 120ft aboveground.

I want to build a wire cage monopole
- sloping down from steel tower
- using tower as counterpoise
- feedpoint at top of sloper, via stepdown rf transfomrer, grounded to
tower
- coax cable lead, with rf choke coils and surge suppressors.

Questions:
- what kind of cage antenna?
- how many wires?
- what spreaders, how large?
- ideal wire?

Current plan config:
- length 14 m = 2 x 4m straight sections, + 2 x 3m truncated cubes
- spreaders at 3-7-11 m
- 140 cm dia. spreaders, each made with two waterproofed bamboo
triangles in "star of David" configuration; wire kept parallel at 70cm
distance from each orther.
- material: .8mm copperclad, abt. 90 m (270 ft) total.

Any hints, like more/fewer parallel wires, broader / smaller
spreaders, different materials, dirrerent antenna wire, RF
downtransformer, whatever?

Filippo

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

What kind of bandwidth do you get with that?

Bob AD3K

w4jle wrote:
Might I suggest electric fence wire, a 1/4 mile spool is under $8.00. 19 AWG
and designed for outdoor use.

I have used cage dipoles for years and it has worked well for me. I normally
use 6 wires and slices of 12" diameter plastic sewer pipe cut to 1/4 inch
thickness and 6 holes drilled every 60 degrees(slightly larger than your
wire). on 80 meters I use 4 rings per side equally spaced. the rings are
held in place by winding a short piece of wire around the plastic and
twisting it on each side of the ring to the antenna element.

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Thus the reason they make chocolate and vanilla, we all get a choice.

I choose the cage, don't confuse me with the facts.


"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
Dear W4JLE

I think you should be aware that, as perceived at the receiver end, the
characteristics of the feedline, its length and SWR, and tuner can have at
least as great an effect on operating bandwidth as the antenna constuction
itself. Antenna height above ground can seriously affect bandwidth.
Lowering height can increase bandwidth more than changing from from a thin
wire to big fat cage.

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

Thank you all again for the deluge of tips & links!
This is getting seriously fun!

Quick update on my trials with copperclad (maybe just copperflashed)
metal-inert-gas continuous welding steelwi

- This stuff solders like heaven! Steel disperses heat less than
copper, and capillarity is amazing. Hot solder joints catch deep
between twisted wires.

- Steel is quite springy and retains shape. My spool is small (~5"
dia.) but if I release the wire it falls into 15" loops.

- I made a 20' dia. loop with 3+ rounds of this wire, and soldered it
at 6 spots all round. Very light and elastic.

You know where I'm heading. I would like to try a lightweight soldered
all-steel cage, and rustproof it with one of those steel-blackening
nitric acid paints.

As a trial, I'd do a short cage with two 20" rings, maybe 2' between
them, and 3' end cones, paint it all, and hang it out in the elements,
weight-loaded.

The INEVITABLE QUESTION
=== Do cage spreaders HAVE to be insulating? ===

Uneducated guess: as VHF/UHF discones are made out of either radials
or sheet metal, I'd say that shorting spacers should be OK.

hints for quasi-professional cage antenna anyone?
 

SL,

For a Cage Antenna 'using' Metal (conductive) "Spacers" for VHF and
UHF just may work.

But... Everything I have seen for HF (MW/SW) has non-conductive
spacers.
- - - wood, plastic, tie-off-ropes, etc.

* * * Here is an alternative idea:
Three-Five small 24" Hula-Hoops with 8-12 holes drilled into them for
the copperclad wire. Would be a quick and easy trial (proto-type)
model.
- Three to Five Feet (3Ft-5Ft) Top and Bottom "Cones".
- - Three to Five Feet (3Ft-5Ft) "Space" between the Hula-Hoops.
- - - Eight to Twelve (8-12) Wires 12Ft-30Ft Long.
- - - - Vertically Mounted with a Bottom Feed Point.

Note: Flexiable 1/2", 3/4" or 1" Black PVC Tubing that is designed
for Garden Watering Systems. Could be used for smaller circular
"Spacer" Loops. Form them to size and use a Wood Plug and Stapes to
join the ends. Then Drill the holes for the wires.

TIP: Simple Practial Considerations
- - - The "Rule-of-Thumb" in dealing with Mechanical Realities :o)

* Divide the Diameter of the Loops by Two(2) to 'determine' the
maximum "Number" of Wires that will fit around the perimeter of the
Loop.

* Multiply the Diameter by Five(5) to determine the appropriate
"Space" between the Loops.

EXAMPLES:
6" Loop = Three(3) Wires and Two Foot Spacing between the Loops.
8" Loop = Four(4) Wires and Three Foot Spacing between the Loops.
12" Loop = Six(6) Wires and Five Foot Spacing between the Loops.
16" Loop = Eight(8) Wires and Seven Foot Spacing between the Loops.
18" Loop = Nine(9) Wires and Eight Foot Spacing between the Loops.
20" Loop = Ten(6) Wires and Nine Foot Spacing between the Loops.
24" Loop = Twelve(12) Wires and Ten Foot Spacing between the Loops.


iane ~ RHF
..
..
OBTW: Visit the "SWL Antennas and AM & FM Antennas" which is
"Open-To-All" to Read and Post at YAHOO! eGroups.
GoTo= http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM-FM-Antenna/
- - - This is my Antenna ~Golbewym~ [My Web Log].
..
..
= = (SpamLover)
= = = wrote in message . com...
Thank you all again for the deluge of tips & links!
This is getting seriously fun!

Quick update on my trials with copperclad (maybe just copperflashed)
metal-inert-gas continuous welding steelwi

- This stuff solders like heaven! Steel disperses heat less than
copper, and capillarity is amazing. Hot solder joints catch deep
between twisted wires.

- Steel is quite springy and retains shape. My spool is small (~5"
dia.) but if I release the wire it falls into 15" loops.

- I made a 20' dia. loop with 3+ rounds of this wire, and soldered it
at 6 spots all round. Very light and elastic.

You know where I'm heading. I would like to try a lightweight soldered
all-steel cage, and rustproof it with one of those steel-blackening
nitric acid paints.

As a trial, I'd do a short cage with two 20" rings, maybe 2' between
them, and 3' end cones, paint it all, and hang it out in the elements,
weight-loaded.

The INEVITABLE QUESTION
=== Do cage spreaders HAVE to be insulating? ===

Uneducated guess: as VHF/UHF discones are made out of either radials
or sheet metal, I'd say that shorting spacers should be OK.