On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:39:40 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his bananna
boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll terribly
dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling

Absolutely the worst point of sail, even in moderate seas. Even our
gyro/hydraulically stabilized trawler doesn't like it all that much
but it is more bearable than a sailboat.

I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected. Neal
/ Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is entirely
gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his ward).
I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in the usual
reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that could easily
be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never took his boat
out into open water.

--
Roger Long

... *Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up....

I remember those boxy Lake Ontario waves well. The only time I've
been full on seasick was running home in a following sea on that lake
-- my folks sent my brother and me below and the bugger blew chunks
all over me. It was a bad scene. I was 9ish and I remember it with
terrible clarity. However, just for the record, the oceans can create
similarly ugly seas even in deep, unobstructed waters when conditions
are right (or wrong as may be). Don't go to sea on the assumption
that all you will see is big round swells...

--Tom.

wrote:
... Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up....

I remember those boxy Lake Ontario waves well. The only time I've
been full on seasick was running home in a following sea on that lake
-- my folks sent my brother and me below and the bugger blew chunks
all over me. It was a bad scene. I was 9ish and I remember it with
terrible clarity. However, just for the record, the oceans can create
similarly ugly seas even in deep, unobstructed waters when conditions
are right (or wrong as may be). Don't go to sea on the assumption
that all you will see is big round swells...

I am well aware of this Tom, my personal experience is we on Lake
Ontario occasionally get nice long rollers,, just as the ocean will
occasionally dish up some nasty square waves, (particularly common if
there is a large current involved, a la Gulf Stream). But more often
than not we get those nasty short waves, and most ocean sailors, more
often than not, get longer rolling waves.

Cheers
Martin

On Oct 14, 3:10*pm, Marty wrote:
....
I am well aware of this Tom, *my personal experience is we on Lake
Ontario occasionally get nice long rollers,, just as the ocean will
occasionally dish up some nasty square waves, (particularly common if
there is a large current involved, a la Gulf Stream). But more often
than not we get those nasty short waves, and most ocean sailors, more
often than not, get longer rolling waves.

Sorry if I sounded pedantic, Marty. I didn't mean to preach. The
oceans are a big place and weather is local and I haven't seen even a
tiny bit of what there is to see. Still, I quibble a bit with the
idea that the oceans will only __occasionally__ dish up nasty square
waves. If the waves are new (ie. you're close to a compact wx system)
or running against current they can get nasty and that, IM (limited)
E, is a common enough thing. YMMV.

--Tom.

On Oct 14, 7:55*pm, WaIIy wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:16:18 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected. * Neal
/ Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is entirely
gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his ward)..
I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in the usual
reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that could easily
be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never took his boat
out into open water.

Even you can't keep politics out, eh Roger?

Politics? Just an observation of fact I'd say.

Wilbur/Neal can see the oceans on Google Earth, there for he can sail
them. In his mind.

Just like Palin can see Russia from her front yard. And there for
understands U.S./Russian relations. In her mind.


Capt. Bill

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll
terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling from
the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies of wind off the
rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

While I am definitely not familar with the rolling moment of Skippies Pig
and it could be significant I was hoping he had sense enough to purchase a
boat that did not suffer from excessive rythmic rolling and knew how to sail
it to minimize those effects. But, that may, indeed, be hoping for too much.

Sounds to me it is YOU who know nothing about sailboats, Mr. Long. It also
sounds to me that you don't or can't use a spinnaker. If you sail downwind
wing and wing there can be significant rolling. But, if you use a spinnaker
like I do and sheet the main in flat there is very little rythmic rolling
when I run. Another consideration is the underbody of the yacht. My fine
blue water yacht just happens to have a Scheel keel which is also quite
shoal. It's the deeper fin keels and traditional full-length keels that
contribute to a rythmic rolling effect when running much more so than a
shoal draft vessel. This is due to the lift generated by the extra leverage
of a deep draft underbody.

I have sailed considerable periods of time running and I can tell you
rolling is barely there under a spinnaker. Rolling (and yawing) increases
greatly when sailing with the wind and wave on the quarter. The large, long
period waves tend to slew the boat all over the place as they strike the
quarter. A wave coming directly from astern does not slew the vessel at all.
And a spinnaker pulling the vessel along by her stem head gives the vessel
no cause to roll.

Those sailors who complain about excessive rolling with boom end dipping
into the water when running sail ill-handling boats and that's a fact. My
boat is not to be counted among those less well drawn.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Marty" wrote in message
...
Larry wrote:
"Roger Long" wrote in
:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.

Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in
roll terribly dead down wind since there is no side force to damp
rolling from the wave excitation that is still present and the eddies
of wind off the rig create large rythmic rolling forces.

Putting the wind on the quarter damps rolling but introduces other
uncomfortable motions and steering difficulties due to wave action. I
certainly don't think though that Skip would be going dead downwind to
maximize comfort.

--
Roger Long

Get me to the rail! I think I'm going to puke!

The motion of my roll around office chair coupled with Roger's ELOQUENT
description makes me...........wanna bring her into the wind!

Oh, how I hate that rolling with the waves on the quarter, trying to tear
the wheel out of your hands as it plows against the side of the
rudder.....

.....after the rudder goes back underwater, that is...(c;




Exactly! I spent a most unpleasant four or five hours last year in a
quartering sea on Lake Ontario, waves were two to three meters, wind
wasn't all that strong, maybe 20Kts, at best, more likely a little less,
but 200 miles of fetch is enough to generate some good size waves. Of
course thay are not nice long rollers like on the ocean, 50 or 60 feet
crest to crest. Makes life really uncomfortable, the autopilot gets
totally bent out of shape when the boat rolls a lot and just gives up.

One wonders if Wilbur has ever set foot on sailboat.


Your first paragraph just comfirmed my statement that sailing with
quartering waves cause more rolling, and yawing than sailing on a dead run
but then you make yourself sound like an idiot by contradicting yourself in
the last sentence you illogically penned. Duh!

Perhaps you should read my OP with understanding.

Wilbur Hubbard



Cheers
Martin

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:39:40 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

Skippy's probably running to keep the rolling to a minimum.


Ah ha. A statement that makes me wonder if Neal has ever untied his
bananna
boat and taken it to sea. Most sailboats I've been to sea in roll
terribly
dead down wind since there is no side force to damp rolling

Absolutely the worst point of sail, even in moderate seas. Even our
gyro/hydraulically stabilized trawler doesn't like it all that much
but it is more bearable than a sailboat.


This tells me you never sailed a well designed sailing vessel. This tells
me you don't use a spinnaker when sailing downwind. Don't try to translate
driving a trawler to sailing a sailboat.

Dead downwind sailing under spinnaker and sheeted flat main causes little or
no rolling in a properly designed sailboat such as the one I sail. Sailing
with quartering wind and seas makes for a VERY rolly ride as the vessel yaws
and slews as every wave overtakes her.

You people need to get real.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think this Palin like moment has proved what we have all suspected.
Neal / Wilbur / whoever's apparent knowledge of boats and sailing is
entirely gained from books read at his mooring (and recently, probably, his
ward). I've never seen him post anything here that goes beyond what is in
the usual reading list and this statement is an assumption and error that
could easily be made by even an extensively read armchair sailor that never
took his boat out into open water.

It is YOU who have demonstrated a lack of voyaging under sail know-how. See
my other posts for the reasons why.

Wilbur Hubbard