moorings yacht management
 

Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

moorings yacht management
 

The down side it you must purchase a boat that they know they can charter,
so it won't be your dream boat.
It will be a 'bunk house' layout with lot'sa bunks and gigantic main salon
for entertaining.

Few desireable off shore characteristics since it will be sailed within
hundred miles or so of the charter base.

You can expect she will be grounded several time a season, sails abused and
engine run to red-line while motoring.

Once she her design and appearance falls out of favor with the charter
crowd, they will want you to trade for something newer.. I suspect they make
more money on selling the boats than perpetual charter of the same boat.

To me, a person who loves and has a relationship with his boat, placing my
boat in charter service would be like 'renting out my bride'.

I suspect that many who try this method of boat purchase actually never
retain the chartered boat. Most likely they trade it for something else that
hasn't been abused. Or they just let the mooring management co. sell it off
for them..

I chartered out my Cheoy Lee Clipper 33 for two seasons. Same party each
season and it was for 6 weeks each season. However, I let them talk me into
splitting the season. This ment that it wasn't practical for me to plan my
use of the boat since my gear was off the boat, etc. The boat also suffered
more in overall depreciation and market value over the two year than I got
out of the charters. (I had been planning on selling her anyway but got
caught up in the prospect of making a little extra money).


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

moorings yacht management
 

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004, Laura or Brian wrote:

Does anybody have any experience
with this company?

Over-all excellent (if comparatively expensive) company to charter
from.

The plan is, you buy a boat from them, they
charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and
allows you a coupla months use for yourself,
plus some annual profit.

Reread your sentence above, carefully. Then do the math, carefully.
That is, the real, tax-effected/post-tax math net of whatever may be
the return on the funds you will be using to "buy a boat from them"
minus the cost of "buying" (in actual effect, lending Sunsail the
funds for it to buy and own a boat on/against which it will have liens
until it has been fully paid for albeit, nominally, you will be its
"owner" too) and, of course, even after crediting whatever (if
anything) may be the "annual profit" (in effect, also just a reduction
in the costs to you) less, too, whatever sum you believe it is
realistically worth it to you, in dollar terms to compensate you for
the the inconvenience (in whatever degree your "purchase"/charter
contract stipulates) of the particular schedule for which specific
"coupla months" you will be using "your" boat.

Further presume that (apart from potential long-term damage to the
keel and keel bolts from what certainly will be lots of groundings by
persons who don't own "your" boat, especially if the charter area will
be in the Carribbean or some other comparatively shallow/reef-riven
area) Sunsail will, in fact, maintain the (you and it presumably would
hope: heavily used) vessel pretty well, at least cosmetically
(including more or less frequent pump-outs of the pretty much always
near full holding tank), although, if the charter use is heavy, also
don't forget also to factor in (realistically) the hours on the motor
and prop shaft and their related parts compared with the number of
hours and nature of the use you would be giving if only you used the
boat.

Then make two other substantially economic but, concededly, also in
part personal/esthetic calculations -- namely, on the one hand, what
it would cost you to purchase, outright, from Sunsail or Moorings
(_if_ you are in a position to use it) a boat that is comming out of
charter use (for you own/exclusive use), assuming a
knowledgeable/thorough arms-lenghth survey, and, on the other hand,
the sums it probably/realistically would cost to charter whatever boat
you wish (e.g., from Sunsail or Moorings - basically now merged
companies) for whenever/wherever you wish.

Granted, it is very nice to "own" a new or almost new boat, and is
also nice actually to own one. But in making your calculations,
financial and otherwise, don't overlook the also substantial market in
used (yet, if you prefer, comparatively new boats).

outright and can either continue the relationship
for fun and profit or sail away into the sunset.

With all deference due Sunsail's (or like enterprises') experience
including in management and whatever may be due the related
efficiencies of scale and of experience offered (compared with an
individual, like you, just trying newly to enter into the charter
business presumably half-a-world away from where you primarily reside
and are employed) note that you don't actually say that your primary
(or even an important) purpose in acquiring an interest in a boat is
to charter it to others for their use. Anyway, do the math.
Carefully. In light of what are any number of other alternatives for
purchase outright.




They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

moorings yacht management
 

hi
why not spend your money chartering and then you can abuse somebody elses
boat and still have some cash to spare.



"Laura or Brian" wrote in message
...
Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

moorings yacht management
 

It really depends on your situation. I really can't comment on the
financial side much but being fairly competent in fixing most boat
systems I volunteer on delivery crews for Moorings boats going down out
of Charleston and coming back either to the liquidation center in
Florida or to the owners.

The boats coming out of 3 to 5 years of charter are in surprisingly good
shape. Actually I have to fix less things on the boats coming back than
the new ones going down. The refurb operation in Florida is basically
cosmetic. I give them a list of things that I found and the BVI base
sends another evaluation.

I have delivered 3 boats for owners. One to some big wig Houston lawyer
who was happy as a pig in s**t. Couldn't stop talking about what a
great deal it was. The other two, one in Mobile and the other in
Jacksonville, thought they had been screwed. Both were upside down on
their loans and faced with laying out a chunk of cash just to get rid of
the boat.

Bendytoe hulls come in two flavors. The charter layouts are floating
dormitories but the private designs are pretty decent. You can convert
the charter versions of 505s and the 40+ hulls to the private layout
fairly easily by ripping out some bulkheads and one or two heads but
that is not so easy with the smaller boats.

One financial thing I did find out. You will pay about 10 to 15% more
for the boat buying through Moorings than you will in a private purchase.

If you plan to use it as a tax deduction you can only use the boat 2
weeks a year plus maybe a week for "inspection and maintenance" if you
feel lucky. You should also have a considerable amount of qualified
passive income or the deduction will be useless.

Overall, if you can only get away to sail 2 or 3 weeks a year you will
be better off chartering.

Laura or Brian wrote:

Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

moorings yacht management
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message
news:MuJ9c.1853$9g.1662@lakeread04...
It really depends on your situation. I really can't comment on the
financial side much but being fairly competent in fixing most boat
systems I volunteer on delivery crews for Moorings boats going down out
of Charleston and coming back either to the liquidation center in
Florida or to the owners.

Glenn...how long have you been involved with 'Moorings'?
I have a buddy who captained the Windjammers for them a few years ago. He
also sailed as mate on the supply ship 'Amazing Grace'. Sure wish I could
have gone down then. That boat used to take a month and travel to all the
sites
from Ft. Lauderdale to Aruba. Would have been the trip of a lifetime for me!

moorings yacht management
 

Don White wrote in message
...

oops wrong fleet.
He did work for Moorings out of Tortola at times...when people chartering
needed a captain and has also made numerous deliveries form the BVI as far
as Ireland and I believe the Canary Islands..

moorings yacht management
 

I am what you would call "pickup crew". :-) I do one delivery a year
just to remind myself why I have this big money sucking project in the
backyard. I have crewed down for St.Barts, the company that has the
delivery contract for the South Carolina Beneteau plant and make returns
with various skippers.

I have 3 strong points that make me popular with delivery skippers: I
can fix most things on a boat, I don't get seasick hanging upside down
rewiring a bilge pump and I work for free. :-)

Bob Cook down near Tampa got me started. He has a site at
http://www.ocean-pro.com/htmfiles/captbob2a.htm He does "instructional
deliveries". Looks a bit like Peter Sellers and somethimes thinks like
him but he is a damned good navigation instructor and a first class
delivery skipper.

Don White wrote:


Glenn...how long have you been involved with 'Moorings'?
I have a buddy who captained the Windjammers for them a few years ago. He
also sailed as mate on the supply ship 'Amazing Grace'. Sure wish I could
have gone down then. That boat used to take a month and travel to all the
sites
from Ft. Lauderdale to Aruba. Would have been the trip of a lifetime for me!

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

moorings yacht management
 

Laura or Brian wrote in message
...
Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan
is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the
proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla
months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own
the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and
profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

You'll get quite a few hearsay responses telling you the boats
will be trashed and worthless after the charter period. This is
not true; the operators cannot charter out a trashed boat, so
they look after them pretty well. Moorings also (used to, maybe
still do) guarantee new sails and engine on handover to the
owner. So check the small print.

However, what all these ownership schemes do is hand the cost of
finance (depreciation; 10%pa: opportunity cost; 5% pa) to you.
These costs can be up to 2/3rd of the cost of owning and
operating a boat. Some £15,000 a year for a £100,000 boat. There
is a small charter income to defray the lost interest, and the
losses through depreciation in some jurisdictions can be offset
against other income to reduce your tax bills .

The net effect is that usually you will be better off paying to
charter for two weeks a year for five years, then buying a five
year old ex-charter boat (depreciated from about £100,000 to
about £60,000 or lower - the market is pretty saturated at the
moment) and spending £15,000 on new sails, engine, rigging and
steering.

Mind you, you won't have the thrill of talking about 'my new
boat'.

JimB

moorings yacht management
 

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:40:25 -0500, in message
MuJ9c.1853$9g.1662@lakeread04
Glenn Ashmore wrote:

I have delivered 3 boats for owners. One to some big wig Houston lawyer
who was happy as a pig in s**t. Couldn't stop talking about what a
great deal it was. The other two, one in Mobile and the other in
Jacksonville, thought they had been screwed. Both were upside down on
their loans and faced with laying out a chunk of cash just to get rid of
the boat.

It could make a big difference on the financials whether one had the
cash in hand to invest or had to borrow and what kind of rate one
could borrow at. An investment that loses money and provides hearty
perks can look really good in a high tax bracket while it looks lousy
if you borrow at premium rates.

moorings yacht management
 

In article ,
Laura or Brian wrote:

Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.


The other posts are all good, showing several sides of the story. But
for the real scoop, I'd check with the owner's group. I don't know where
it is any more, but a Google should turn them up.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

moorings yacht management
 

Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

.


Now for an Australian perspective..

I looked at purchasing for charter but the numbers just didn't make sense. Even with the tax effectiveness the cost was higher than outright purchase. Several people have commented on the 'floating dormitory' syndrome which is a real problem. I wound up buying a ex-charter boat from Sunsail out of French Polynesia. I bought it because it was a good deal and the boat in question was an owner's configuration. Survey report was neutral based upon a boat of 7 years old. Once I got my hands on it everything was as described and in good condition for its age. I am now happily sailing a Jeanneau SO 37.2 in the Bass Strait area of Australia. BTW Sunsail brokerage was very professional and honest through the whole purchase/survey/transport phase

--
Regards
John VK3J
S/V Chagall

moorings yacht management
 

Laura or Brian wrote:

Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you
buy a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the
proceeds from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a
coupla months use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually,
you own the boat outright and can either continue the relationship for
fun and profit or sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail
Magazine.
Thanks for any info.

All the comments I see are pretty negative. . I didn't see any posts
from people who have done it but if you'd like to read about/communicate
with someone who has a successful relationship with a charter company
(not Moorings) check out

http://www.usual-suspects-sailing.com

Jim.

moorings yacht management
 

Laura or Brian wrote in message ...
Does anybody have any experience with this company? The plan is, you buy
a boat from them, they charter it out and maintain it and the proceeds
from this rental use pays for the boat and allows you a coupla months
use for yourself, plus some annual profit. Eventually, you own the boat
outright and can either continue the relationship for fun and profit or
sail away into the sunset. They advertise in Sail Magazine.
Thanks for any info.


Disclaimer: I have no experience chartering with The Moorings or
owning a charter boat. What I tell you comes from my own research into
charter boat ownership.

The Moorings is the oldest and were, prior to the merger of Sunsail
and Stardust, the largest bareboat charter operation around. Quite
often people who have never chartered before are recommended to The
Moorings because of their efficiency and high level of service
especially to new charterers. What this means to you as an owner of
course is that you may get a higher percentage of first time
charterers on your boat. That's not necessarily bad, just something to
be aware of.

Yes you will have income from charters and it may be enough to cover
your loan payments and maybe even leave you with a little profit. But
the average charter contract is for 3 - 5 years and the average loan
term is much longer than that. And as we all know, when paying off a
loan, in the beginning you are paying mostly interest. You could wind
up at the end of the charter contract owing more for your boat than
it's actually worth if you were to try to sell it. Selling the boat at
this point is certainly an option, but not necessarily a good one.
Many people try to do this and thus the market is fairly saturated
with 5 - 10 year old Moorings boats which deflates their value. Also
since the boats are optimized for charter operation they may not be as
attractive to boat buyers looking for a good blue water cruising boat.

If at the end of your contract you can afford to "sail off into the
sunset" and make the remaining payments yourself, why not charter for
a few years and then when you are ready to sail away buy a 5 - 10 year
old boat. You will probably spend a lot less on charters than you
would plunking down 20% - 25% on a new boat. Also you will have much
greater range of boats to choose from when you are ready to sail away
than you will buying a new boat through a charter company.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing this if it's what you want
to do, just be sure that you go into it with your eyes open. From the
tone of your question it sounds as though you are just beginning to
think about charter boat ownership. Be sure to do your homework before
making any deals.

There is a good amount of information on http://www.sailonline.com/
both for charterers and charter boat owners. Specifically they offer a
couple of spreadsheets which layout the costs and benefits of
ownership and study it from a few different angles, defraying the cost
of boat ownership, as the cost of several years worth of vacations and
even as a financial investment. I hope you find it useful.

Bob

moorings yacht management
 

Bob Gough wrote in message
om...

The Moorings is the oldest and were, prior to the merger of
Sunsail
and Stardust, the largest bareboat charter operation around.
Quite
often people who have never chartered before are recommended to
The
Moorings because of their efficiency and high level of service
enormous snip

Very accurate and balanced reply, Bob.

I used to own and run a charter fleet of some 70 yachts and we
looked at this technique. It handed the finance costs
(depreciation especially) to the owner, and these are by far the
biggest costs of running a fleet. We didn't do it in the end
because:

We reached a similar conclusion to you. In the long term, finance
costs are a lot lower buying second hand boats, and doing them up
really well.

So what we did was keep our (own) ex-charter boats, do them up
really well, and run them for a further 15 years or more. We kept
a steady trickle of new boats coming in, and our gamble was that
the market wouldn't turn its nose up at the older boats. It
didn't.

I sold out some 15 years ago, and I note that the outfit is still
running with the same policy, and that (together with another
using the same policy) they're both great value for money for
charterers, and also the most profitable outfits for their
turnovers in the business.

JimB

moorings yacht management
 

Bob Gough wrote in message
om...

The Moorings is the oldest and were, prior to the merger of
Sunsail
and Stardust, the largest bareboat charter operation around.
Quite
often people who have never chartered before are recommended to
The
Moorings because of their efficiency and high level of service
enormous snip

Very accurate and balanced reply, Bob.

I used to own and run a charter fleet of some 70 yachts and we
looked at this technique. It handed the finance costs
(depreciation especially) to the owner, and these are by far the
biggest costs of running a fleet. We didn't do it in the end
because:

We reached a similar conclusion to you. In the long term, finance
costs are a lot lower buying second hand boats, and doing them up
really well.

So what we did was keep our (own) ex-charter boats, do them up
really well, and run them for a further 15 years or more. We kept
a steady trickle of new boats coming in, and our gamble was that
the market wouldn't turn its nose up at the older boats. It
didn't.

I sold out some 15 years ago, and I note that the outfit is still
running with the same policy, and that (together with another
using the same policy) they're both great value for money for
charterers, and also the most profitable outfits for their
turnovers in the business.

JimB

Moorings yacht management
 

Hello all:

I read with great interest the long exchanges about charter boat
ownership, with or w/o Moorings.

I must first disclose the following:
1. I am currently on my 3rd. boat in the Moorings management program
2. I am the president of the Moorings Owners Group - an independent
association of about 230 Moorings boat owners, the intent of which is
to collaborate with the Moorings' management to maintain a good
quality of ownership-life for Moorings owners. I repeat: The
association is independent, just in case it would appear that this
would make me a Moorings apologist, which I am not, of course.
3. I am also the founder of Sailonline.com, which was quoted in a
posting. And the site is COMPLETELY independent from any charter
company.

That said, there were several accurate postings, and some very
inaccurate about this whole issue.

I will not elaborate much because, as one of the postings said,
everything is explained on the web site in great details. However,
know this:

a) Charter boat ownership is NOT for everyone who just wants to buy a
boat. It can make a lot of sense for person X and no sense at all for
person Y. The issue is further complicated by the fact that charter
companies are not all alike: some programs fit a certain type of boat
use and ownership, and some don't. For instance, if you want a very
customized boat, Moorings and Sunsail will NOT accomodate you at all.
If you want to sail your boat 3 or 4 months a year, again, those 2
will not accomodate you.
But in both cases above, TMM or Horizon gladly will.

b) Boat ownership CAN be a great experience, on a sailing and
financial standpoint. However, you MUST do a lot of serious soul
searching and homework, and know ALL the details of what you are
getting into BEFOREHAND. No stone unturned. And this is more
complicated than it appears.
It is interesting to note that most people do a huge amount of
research before buying a house, but very little when buying a boat,
although a boat can have the same cost AND depreciate 40 or 50% in 5
years! The reason: EMOTION (see below).

c) Do NOT get emotional when negotiating your boat and contract. I
have consulted for about a dozen of boat-buying families and most get
very emotional out of excitment, against my strong advice. The minute
it happens, it's all over: The salesperson has won. So be prepared to
coldly walk instantly if any of the clauses in the contract makes you
uncomfortable and the charter company is not willing to negotiate it.
If you don't, you will regret it. Guaranteed.

Having said all that, when you've done the home work and everything
that goes with it, and when you have made sure that ownership is
indeed suitable for you and your family- in one word, if you know what
you are doing- then, yes, ownership is a very rewarding experience. On
many counts.

I hope this helps.

Michel Benarrosh

Moorings yacht management
 

Hello all:

I read with great interest the long exchanges about charter boat
ownership, with or w/o Moorings.

I must first disclose the following:
1. I am currently on my 3rd. boat in the Moorings management program
2. I am the president of the Moorings Owners Group - an independent
association of about 230 Moorings boat owners, the intent of which is
to collaborate with the Moorings' management to maintain a good
quality of ownership-life for Moorings owners. I repeat: The
association is independent, just in case it would appear that this
would make me a Moorings apologist, which I am not, of course.
3. I am also the founder of Sailonline.com, which was quoted in a
posting. And the site is COMPLETELY independent from any charter
company.

That said, there were several accurate postings, and some very
inaccurate about this whole issue.

I will not elaborate much because, as one of the postings said,
everything is explained on the web site in great details. However,
know this:

a) Charter boat ownership is NOT for everyone who just wants to buy a
boat. It can make a lot of sense for person X and no sense at all for
person Y. The issue is further complicated by the fact that charter
companies are not all alike: some programs fit a certain type of boat
use and ownership, and some don't. For instance, if you want a very
customized boat, Moorings and Sunsail will NOT accomodate you at all.
If you want to sail your boat 3 or 4 months a year, again, those 2
will not accomodate you.
But in both cases above, TMM or Horizon gladly will.

b) Boat ownership CAN be a great experience, on a sailing and
financial standpoint. However, you MUST do a lot of serious soul
searching and homework, and know ALL the details of what you are
getting into BEFOREHAND. No stone unturned. And this is more
complicated than it appears.
It is interesting to note that most people do a huge amount of
research before buying a house, but very little when buying a boat,
although a boat can have the same cost AND depreciate 40 or 50% in 5
years! The reason: EMOTION (see below).

c) Do NOT get emotional when negotiating your boat and contract. I
have consulted for about a dozen of boat-buying families and most get
very emotional out of excitment, against my strong advice. The minute
it happens, it's all over: The salesperson has won. So be prepared to
coldly walk instantly if any of the clauses in the contract makes you
uncomfortable and the charter company is not willing to negotiate it.
If you don't, you will regret it. Guaranteed.

Having said all that, when you've done the home work and everything
that goes with it, and when you have made sure that ownership is
indeed suitable for you and your family- in one word, if you know what
you are doing- then, yes, ownership is a very rewarding experience. On
many counts.

I hope this helps.

Michel Benarrosh