trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"tom" wrote in message
...
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom


It's obvious that you have your wiring screwed up. In order for your starter
solenoid to work it must have two working circuits. One is the one that
makes it click (the electromagnet that closes the high amperage circuit).
The other is the high-amperage circuit itself that runs the starter motor.
Both need good clean grounds - the low amperage circuit especially. If it
clicks it's probably working properly. That means the high amperage circuit
is non-functional when the photovoltaics are connected. What could cause
that? Probably you have it connected to the regulated side of the charging
circuit.

You need bus bars and heavy duty buss bars at that. All your positives need
to be connected to the positive buss bar and all your negatives need to be
connected to the negative buss bar. If your photovoltaic charge controller
has a high voltage cut-out you need to be sure it's not cutting out the
circuit to the high amperage side of your starter motor.

Wilbur Hubbard

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"tom" wrote in message
...
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom



Obviously a short somewhere, but that's not really helpful. Perhaps the
reversing diode is shorting?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
news:hdCdnWEMyOwp9ILVnZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@bayareasolut ions...
"tom" wrote in message
...
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom



Obviously a short somewhere, but that's not really helpful. Perhaps the
reversing diode is shorting?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


This guy ganz is an idiot. One would think somebody who had nothing to say
would shut the f*ck up but NOOOOOOOOOO!

--
Gregory Hall

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

tom wrote:
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom

Is shore power (or another source) plugged in? Sometime solar's high
Voltage with low current confuses other sources.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
tom wrote:
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom

Is shore power (or another source) plugged in? Sometime solar's high
Voltage with low current confuses other sources.

So you're saying the starter motor is "confused?" Ha ha ha ha! That's got
to be one of the funnier things I read here for quite some time.

I have some advice. The advice is please shut up if you've got nothing to
offer but ignorance and stupidity.

Wilbur Hubbard

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"jeff" wrote in message
. ..
tom wrote:
When my solar panels are charging (~14V) and I try to start the
engine, it basically acts like the batteries are dead. No turnover,
just hear the click of the solenoid. I unplug the solar panels and
it starts right up? Any ideas what could be causing this? Wierd.
Tom

Is shore power (or another source) plugged in? Sometime solar's high
Voltage with low current confuses other sources.


Perhaps if we had more info about the circuit.... are they connected
directly to the batteries? do they run through something else first? As you
asked, is the AC on?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
news:fOydnd44kq4V6oLVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@bayareasolut ions...

Perhaps if we had more info about the circuit.... are they connected
directly to the batteries? do they run through something else first? As
you asked, is the AC on?


Clueless! Totally clueless! Stick with your "It's a short" fantasy!

--
Gregory Hall

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On May 5, 5:56 pm, "Gregory Hall" wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message

news:fOydnd44kq4V6oLVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@bayareasolut ions...

Perhaps if we had more info about the circuit.... are they connected
directly to the batteries? do they run through something else first? As
you asked, is the AC on?
The solar controller is connected to the house battery, but I connect
both
engine and house together all the time. No A/C. Engine starts fine
when
when all connected if panels aren't charging, everything else works
fine.
Two controllers, solar and balmar but the balmar doesn't kick in for
45
seconds after the engine is started.

Remember it works find unless the voltage is driven to 14v.
Tom

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"tom" wrote in message
...
On May 5, 5:56 pm, "Gregory Hall" wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message

news:fOydnd44kq4V6oLVnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@bayareasolut ions...

Perhaps if we had more info about the circuit.... are they connected
directly to the batteries? do they run through something else first? As
you asked, is the AC on?
The solar controller is connected to the house battery, but I connect
both
engine and house together all the time. No A/C. Engine starts fine
when
when all connected if panels aren't charging, everything else works
fine.
Two controllers, solar and balmar but the balmar doesn't kick in for
45
seconds after the engine is started.

Remember it works find unless the voltage is driven to 14v.
Tom


You're right... it's weird.. I'm sure there's a simple solution, because
it's an on/off issue. Sorry I can't be of more help...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

Why do you have the solar charging both house and start batteries??
If there is nothing other than the starter drawing of that battery,
why charge it.
You're most likely going to kill it.

I have solar and wind. They go only to the house bank.
The start battery only runs the windlass and starter.
I gets charged by the engine (running) and dockside.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On May 6, 6:21 am, wrote:
Why do you have the solar charging both house and start batteries??
If there is nothing other than the starter drawing of that battery,
why charge it.
You're most likely going to kill it.

I have solar and wind. They go only to the house bank.
The start battery only runs the windlass and starter.
I gets charged by the engine (running) and dockside.

The engine and house are the same size (100ah), I only
have 2 and just use them together, it's not a separate
smaller starter battery.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

tom wrote:
On May 6, 6:21 am, wrote:
Why do you have the solar charging both house and start batteries??
If there is nothing other than the starter drawing of that battery,
why charge it.
You're most likely going to kill it.

I have solar and wind. They go only to the house bank.
The start battery only runs the windlass and starter.
I gets charged by the engine (running) and dockside.

The engine and house are the same size (100ah), I only
have 2 and just use them together, it's not a separate
smaller starter battery.

So you actually have one bank with two batteries.

I had an opposite problem - low voltage issues that affected starting
over the years. The final diagnostic that clarified everything for me
was the old "screwdriver across the starter terminals" trick. My
problem was that the "neutral lockout" wires that went back to the gear
shift before feeding the solenoid were too small so the solenoid didn't
always get enough voltage to trip. One thing is that I thought I heard
to solenoid tripping but it was something else clicking - this became
clear when the screwdriver test showed that the solenoid was perfectly
willing to fire when it had sufficient voltage.

WARNING: the "screwdriver test" send a lot of current through the tip -
it will likely be charred and there will be many sparks.

This problem is more perplexing because a high voltage generally cures
more problems than it creates. I can only guess that one of the charge
devices is actually a drain in some situations.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On May 6, 8:23 am, jeff wrote:
tom wrote:
On May 6, 6:21 am, wrote:
Why do you have the solar charging both house and start batteries??
If there is nothing other than the starter drawing of that battery,
why charge it.
You're most likely going to kill it.

I have solar and wind. They go only to the house bank.
The start battery only runs the windlass and starter.
I gets charged by the engine (running) and dockside.

The engine and house are the same size (100ah), I only
have 2 and just use them together, it's not a separate
smaller starter battery.

So you actually have one bank with two batteries.

I had an opposite problem - low voltage issues that affected starting
over the years. The final diagnostic that clarified everything for me
was the old "screwdriver across the starter terminals" trick. My
problem was that the "neutral lockout" wires that went back to the gear
shift before feeding the solenoid were too small so the solenoid didn't
always get enough voltage to trip. One thing is that I thought I heard
to solenoid tripping but it was something else clicking - this became
clear when the screwdriver test showed that the solenoid was perfectly
willing to fire when it had sufficient voltage.

WARNING: the "screwdriver test" send a lot of current through the tip -
it will likely be charred and there will be many sparks.

This problem is more perplexing because a high voltage generally cures
more problems than it creates. I can only guess that one of the charge
devices is actually a drain in some situations.

I actually have 2 solenoids, the starter solenoid of course, then
another
to trip the starter one (yanmar).

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

This problem is more perplexing because a high voltage generally cures
more problems than it creates. I can only guess that one of the charge
devices is actually a drain in some situations.
Agreed, that's why I think it has to be something electronic (built in
safety
override thingy), I haven't tried to put a meter on it yet, just
thought maybe
somebody knew what it could be off the top of your head.
Note, the newer yanmars come with more electronics; engine panel/tach/
hr
meter. I don't like it.
Should electronics that are design for 12v be able to function at
14v? I would
think so.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

tom wrote:
This problem is more perplexing because a high voltage generally cures
more problems than it creates. I can only guess that one of the charge
devices is actually a drain in some situations.
Agreed, that's why I think it has to be something electronic (built in
safety
override thingy), I haven't tried to put a meter on it yet, just
thought maybe
somebody knew what it could be off the top of your head.
Note, the newer yanmars come with more electronics; engine panel/tach/
hr
meter. I don't like it.

I didn't find anything suspicious in my Yanmar panel, for 2GM20FC's with
saildrive, other than overly long, thin wires for the neutral lockout.
I'm a bit surprised it comes with the second solenoid. I was about to
add that to mine when I discovered the wire issue. This does lead to an
easy test - just short the "low current" solenoid output and see of the
starter solenoid trips.

Should electronics that are design for 12v be able to function at
14v? I would
think so.

Certainly anything that runs with an alternator active has to handle 15
Volts, or even a bit more. However, if your devices are unregulated
that could put out a lot more - 18 Volts or more. Still, I don't wee
where the problem might be so I'll be very interested in hearing abotu
the eventual solution.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"tom" wrote in message
...
Remember it works find unless the voltage is driven to 14v.


Current limit protection is kicking in because of overvoltage. It's the
setting and the way your charging circuit is connected. What brand and
model chargers/switches/regulators do you use?

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On May 6, 10:19 am, "Owen Kellog" wrote:
"tom" wrote in message

...

Remember it works find unless the voltage is driven to 14v.

Current limit protection is kicking in because of overvoltage. It's the
setting and the way your charging circuit is connected. What brand and
model chargers/switches/regulators do you use?

The solar controller is a ProStar PS-15, its connected to the inputs
to
the inverter which is connected to the battery bank via very large
cables.
The prostar is right next to the inverter. The inverter is a Freedom
20 and
it not on when the problem occurs and the alternator controller is a
ARS-4
(balmar) which has a 45 second delay before it kicks in.
The prostar has PWM regulation, and is connected to 4 panels with 186
total
wattage. It's in PWM mode when the problem occurs.
Tom

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"Gregory Hall" wrote in message
...
One would think somebody who had nothing to say would shut the f*ck up but
NOOOOOOOOOO!

And yet it hasn't stopped you either, idiot.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

Looks like the solar controller sees to much of a current draw and shuts
down. This shutting down affects the whole system.

http://support.morningstarcorp.com/

Put the solar on the house battery only, not the starter battery. Isolate
the house from the starter battery.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On Tue, 06 May 2008 09:10:55 -0400, jeff wrote:

However, if your devices are unregulated
that could put out a lot more - 18 Volts or more. Still, I don't wee
where the problem might be so I'll be very interested in hearing abotu
the eventual solution.

That's the only explanation that makes sense to me: If the engine has
electronic controls they may be interpreting an over voltage condition
as an error, or perhaps an over voltage causes the controls to
malfunction in some way.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

"Owen Kellog" wrote in message
...
Looks like the solar controller sees to much of a current draw and shuts
down. This shutting down affects the whole system.

http://support.morningstarcorp.com/

Put the solar on the house battery only, not the starter battery. Isolate
the house from the starter battery.

No, that's not it. The controller doesn't care about current draw. It works
off voltage sensing. It only cares if the voltage becomes too high or too
low. Either way it will regulate voltage so the battery is not damaged by
overcharge or undercharge. But it also has a regulated circuit for things
like refrigerators, etc. so they don't run all night and cause the battery
to discharge so much that it becomes damaged. This guy obviously has not
read the installation instructions and has the regulated circuit connected
to the controller which regulated circuit is attempting to provide current
for the starter motor.

He's got the controller wired incorrectly just like I told him a couple days
age. But, did he listen? So what's the use of trying to educate someone with
eyes that will not see?

Wilbur Hubbard

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

Owen Kellog wrote:
Looks like the solar controller sees to much of a current draw and shuts
down. This shutting down affects the whole system.

http://support.morningstarcorp.com/


Did you find a document there that says this could be a problem?

Put the solar on the house battery only, not the starter battery. Isolate
the house from the starter battery.

Clearly this is a more sophisticated setup but the OP says that the two
bats are switched together, so he actually has only bank. Also, he
implies that flipping a switch on the control allows it to start, so the
real issue here what could cause the problem, not how to work around it.

Since I use solar panels and controllers, and have considered upgrading
to the one mentioned, I'm quite curious about this. BTW, The controller
I use in the summer (I forget the name, but it has a nice volt/amp
display) flakes out in the winter (below 50 degrees) so I switch back to
an older basic Morningstar Sunsaver to keep the batteries charged while
the shrinkwrap is on.

trouble starting engine when solar panels are working
 

On May 7, 3:41 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Owen Kellog" wrote in message

...

Looks like the solar controller sees to much of a current draw and shuts
down. This shutting down affects the whole system.

http://support.morningstarcorp.com/

Put the solar on the house battery only, not the starter battery. Isolate
the house from the starter battery.

No, that's not it. The controller doesn't care about current draw. It works
off voltage sensing. It only cares if the voltage becomes too high or too
low. Either way it will regulate voltage so the battery is not damaged by
overcharge or undercharge. But it also has a regulated circuit for things
like refrigerators, etc. so they don't run all night and cause the battery
to discharge so much that it becomes damaged. This guy obviously has not
read the installation instructions and has the regulated circuit connected
to the controller which regulated circuit is attempting to provide current
for the starter motor.

He's got the controller wired incorrectly just like I told him a couple days
age. But, did he listen? So what's the use of trying to educate someone with
eyes that will not see?

Wilbur Hubbard
It's not wired incorrectly, and there is no circuits wired to the
controller
so its strictly a voltage problem or something about the PWM that is
screwing up the starter circuitry.
You have no idea what you are talking about...but I should have
expected that on a USENET group.