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an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
Tom is a good sailor but his boat had been built in 1972 and was a
poorly made cheapie even then. His total lack of ability at maintaining anything meant that whenever he tried to fix anything it was afterwards so that eventually his 28' boat became a deathtrap of fraying standing rigging, unraveling lines and corroded thru-hulls and I lost contact with him. Recently, I met an enthusiastic new sailor who began to describe his newly purchased old boat and soon I realized I knew the boat. OMG, he bought TOM's boat and he proudly that with a little TLC she will go anywhere. This boat belonged in a landfill in 1972. When I said I knew the boat he new owner really wanted me to look at her which I was loathe to do because I didn't have the heart to tell him that his purchase was garbage. Fortunately, I decided that this boat would never move because I knew that her prop was a huge mass of oyster shells so I thought I'd never see her. WRONG. Today, at my dock, suddenly I meet the enthusiastic owner of Tom's boat telling me she was now at my marina. I was puzzled and asked how she had gotten there and he told me that someone had towed him. I inwardly marveled that she hadn't sunk in transit even though it is only about 3 miles and agree to look at her. From a distance she looked the same tired poorly made 1970s design plastic boat with gel coat that was actually worn off. Up close, the first thing I noticed was the shroud that had broken and had been simply wrapped around a "Quik Link" and then swaged to itself with a hardware swage. The nearby shroud fittings were actually swollen by the shrouds pulling out of the cracked 35 yr old turnbuckles. These shrouds were too small 35 yrs ago and today are probably weaker than kitestring so I didn't dare pull on one. I stepped aboard and when my feet hit the cockpit floor the whole boat "squirmed" in an odd way. "Huh, OMG, there is nothing structural underneath this" I realized. Stepped into the cabin and found myself facing the forward bulkhead whose vynal veneer had peeled off to reveal the plywood structure had totally delaminated and even had a ragged hole all the way through the rotten panel. The square cross section compression post had layers of formica drapping off it in delaminated waves and I didn't even want to look at it. I told him "This MUST be fixed before you go anywhere" and then looked down into a locker where I saw something I have read about but have never actually seen before, a seriously corroded brass gate valve on a thru hull. It had a chain with a lock on it holding it closed and I didn't dare touch it for fear it would break off sinking her right there. I said "This has to go". Next, he showed me the engine. I knew the old Atomic 4 had been replaced but I had to marvel at how the ancient Yanmar YSE-8 had been made to fit by cutting into the structure around the engine compartment to fit the horizontal cylinders structure. The owner proudly jams a jumper cable onto a battery and she actually cranks up and runs well. I also see that the temp sensor wires had simply been clipped off long ago and that Tom had put an alternator from his wrecked Suzuki Samurai on her. I was smelling diesel fumes so looked at the mixing elbow from which a rubber hose was attached to a 2" SCH40 PVC pipe (by now this did not surprise me) and I traced it expecting it to go through a thru hull or into some type of muffler. NOPE, it simply terminated in the interior of the engine compartment, no wonder there were exhaust fumes. Even now, I cannot figure out where the raw engine coollant was going but this might be why the bilge pump kept going on. Back in the dim area behind the engine, I see an old Yanmar control panel dangling in the dark with the ignition switch hard wired across. I'd seen enough and stepped out into the cockpit and the boat squirmed again and I realized her entire structure was bad. It felt as if maybe all the tabbing had long broken from all interior bulkheads. The owner said "All she needs is some TLC, right?". I replied "Yes, a lot of TLC". Stepping off I noticed the decking around where the shroud tangs enter the deck. The tangs had pulled right out of the deck causing the entire deck area to splinter. This had simply been pressed back down and cemented over with hardware store epoxy. I had no idea what to say to her owner. It wouldn't be that I'd be afraid to sail her so much as that I'd be afraid to even untie her from the dock. If I was her owner I'd also be afraid to leave her tied to the dock because she is a danger to the dock. What would you tell this guy? |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
wrote in message ... Tom is a good sailor but his boat had been built in 1972 and was a poorly made cheapie even then. His total lack of ability at maintaining anything meant that whenever he tried to fix anything it was afterwards so that eventually his 28' boat became a deathtrap of fraying standing rigging, unraveling lines and corroded thru-hulls and I lost contact with him. Recently, I met an enthusiastic new sailor who began to describe his newly purchased old boat and soon I realized I knew the boat. OMG, he bought TOM's boat and he proudly that with a little TLC she will go anywhere. snip.. What would you tell this guy? The truth...the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He may as well find out sooner rather than later that he has been played for a sucker....... much better than letting him think with a few minor repairs, he's seaworthy. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700, ohara5.0 wrote:
snip What would you tell this guy? to help you with your decision, ask yourself how you are going to feel if -knowing what you know- he takes some kids out for an afternoon sail and they are all lost...if you are competent to judge the condition of the boat, and he has asked for your opinion...give it to him in clear and unvarnished terms |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
mister b wrote:
On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700, ohara5.0 wrote: snip What would you tell this guy? to help you with your decision, ask yourself how you are going to feel if -knowing what you know- he takes some kids out for an afternoon sail and they are all lost...if you are competent to judge the condition of the boat, and he has asked for your opinion...give it to him in clear and unvarnished terms Tell him he should insure it. That should sort things out, unless your US insurers don't look for a survey? Dennis. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
to help you with your decision, ask yourself how you are going to feel if -knowing what you know- he takes some kids out for an afternoon sail and they are all lost...if you are competent to judge the condition of the boat, and he has asked for your opinion...give it to him in clear and unvarnished terms Tell him he should insure it. That should sort things out, unless your US insurers don't look for a survey? And don't most marina's require proof of current insurance for the vessel? Can't see an insurer offering a policy on that disaster. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
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an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT),
wrote: What would you tell this guy? Insure and scuttle. Or just scuttle. Casady |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Apr 6, 10:31 pm, (Richard Casady)
wrote: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: What would you tell this guy? Insure and scuttle. Or just scuttle. Casady I have never had a marina around here (N. FL) ask about insurance. The story actually got worse when I looked at the mainsail. HOWEVER, I believe she will never leave the dock again. From what he told me, he (the new owner) is more interested in partying at the marina than sailing. When he looks into any of the costs, he will give it up. He could recoup his costs by selling the "working" diesel. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
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an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
He could give it to the Boy Scouts and take a tax writeoff. A scout
troop could provide the labor for a minimum fixup. They could use it as a daysailor. Being charitable isn't about fobbing off defective crap on children. (that's what toy stores do). |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Apr 7, 1:36 am, (Richard Casady) wrote:
On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:44:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Apr 6, 10:31 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: What would you tell this guy? Insure and scuttle. Or just scuttle. Casady I have never had a marina around here (N. FL) ask about insurance. The story actually got worse when I looked at the mainsail. HOWEVER, I believe she will never leave the dock again. From what he told me, he (the new owner) is more interested in partying at the marina than sailing. When he looks into any of the costs, he will give it up. He could recoup his costs by selling the "working" diesel He could give it to the Boy Scouts and take a tax writeoff. A scout troop could provide the labor for a minimum fixup. They could use it as a daysailor. Casady He pulled back the sail cover from the sail leech and said "I just need to stitch it up a little". The leech where it had been folded over the leach line was so rotten that the material had torn all the way up the leech so the leech line was flapping free. All the running rigging was so frayed that they all had broken braided shells with the interiors fraying so they wouldnt pass through any blocks. The teak anchor roller was so rotten that it was split and was actually falling off the bow. The really cheapo undersized aluminum cleats all had at least one horn broken. Tom had told me that during hurricane Dennis he'd lost power and because his stuffing box actually runs a constant stream that she had filled halfway with water and on the inside there was a water mark halfway up the flimsy hardware store fake wooden pannelling. The new owner was "living aboard" but had seen no bad weather on her. Immediately after this, I was having lunch with some friends in a nearby house when we got this crazy Spring storm with 60 kt winds from the south bringing the water up higher than I have seen it except in a hurricane and tearing the roof off a nearby mobile home. We looked outside to see lawn furniture flying past 20' up. Later when I walked past the boat the owner was nowhere in sight and I figure he decided that living aboard in such weather was a bad idea. Fortunately, I doubt this boat will ever leave the dock under her own power because her prop is probably corroded to the point of uselessness beneath a huge ball of oysters. Her rigging cannot even be used to hoist the sail and I think the sail would immediately rip apart if he tried to hoist it. Insurance is not an issue because he probably paid less than a couple thousand dollars cash for her. The most likely scenario is that she will sink at the dock in one of our frequent summer storms when we lose power for a few hours. I believe the owner has few assetts so when he gets sued for the cleanup, who will pay? I wish I had the courage to tell him that his best bet is to simply haul her using the nearby crane and have the nearby backhoe crush her into parts small enough to haul to the dump and then sell the possibly salvageable engine to defray the dumping cost. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Apr 7, 8:57 am, wrote:
On Apr 7, 1:36 am, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:44:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Apr 6, 10:31 pm, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote: What would you tell this guy? Insure and scuttle. Or just scuttle. Casady I have never had a marina around here (N. FL) ask about insurance. The story actually got worse when I looked at the mainsail. HOWEVER, I believe she will never leave the dock again. From what he told me, he (the new owner) is more interested in partying at the marina than sailing. When he looks into any of the costs, he will give it up. He could recoup his costs by selling the "working" diesel He could give it to the Boy Scouts and take a tax writeoff. A scout troop could provide the labor for a minimum fixup. They could use it as a daysailor. Casady He pulled back the sail cover from the sail leech and said "I just need to stitch it up a little". The leech where it had been folded over the leach line was so rotten that the material had torn all the way up the leech so the leech line was flapping free. All the running rigging was so frayed that they all had broken braided shells with the interiors fraying so they wouldnt pass through any blocks. The teak anchor roller was so rotten that it was split and was actually falling off the bow. The really cheapo undersized aluminum cleats all had at least one horn broken. Tom had told me that during hurricane Dennis he'd lost power and because his stuffing box actually runs a constant stream that she had filled halfway with water and on the inside there was a water mark halfway up the flimsy hardware store fake wooden pannelling. The new owner was "living aboard" but had seen no bad weather on her. Immediately after this, I was having lunch with some friends in a nearby house when we got this crazy Spring storm with 60 kt winds from the south bringing the water up higher than I have seen it except in a hurricane and tearing the roof off a nearby mobile home. We looked outside to see lawn furniture flying past 20' up. Later when I walked past the boat the owner was nowhere in sight and I figure he decided that living aboard in such weather was a bad idea. Fortunately, I doubt this boat will ever leave the dock under her own power because her prop is probably corroded to the point of uselessness beneath a huge ball of oysters. Her rigging cannot even be used to hoist the sail and I think the sail would immediately rip apart if he tried to hoist it. Insurance is not an issue because he probably paid less than a couple thousand dollars cash for her. The most likely scenario is that she will sink at the dock in one of our frequent summer storms when we lose power for a few hours. I believe the owner has few assetts so when he gets sued for the cleanup, who will pay? I wish I had the courage to tell him that his best bet is to simply haul her using the nearby crane and have the nearby backhoe crush her into parts small enough to haul to the dump and then sell the possibly salvageable engine to defray the dumping cost. I think that what struck me so much about this incident is that often when passing a dock and I see an old poorly maintained boat that I think, "Somebody who really cared could fix her up". However, this shows that sometimes even a fiberglass boat can be so far gone that she is basically landfill. |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
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an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 08:48:28 -0400, "Bill Kearney"
wrote: He could give it to the Boy Scouts and take a tax writeoff. A scout troop could provide the labor for a minimum fixup. They could use it as a daysailor. Being charitable isn't about fobbing off defective crap on children. (that's what toy stores do). A local scout troop rebuilt a 38 foot sailboat. An A scow, all of which were used and wood at the time. Since then the scows are back in production and in fiberglass, but at the time all the available A boats were used, wood, and falling apart. They had been out of production for ten years or so. Casady |
an old boat and enthusiastic new owner
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:44:58 -0400, in message
Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 06:06:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I think that what struck me so much about this incident is that often when passing a dock and I see an old poorly maintained boat that I think, "Somebody who really cared could fix her up". However, this shows that sometimes even a fiberglass boat can be so far gone that she is basically landfill. Once repair costs exceed the best possible resale price it becomes a "negative value" boat. There are a lot of them in Florida. You need to be careful with a formula that doesn't include the enjoyment of ownership. I knew when I bought my boat that it was unlikely I would ever be able to sell it for what I paid, and that putting money into it was never going to raise the value by nearly the amount invested. They're all "negative value" boats, even the new ones, unless you do major repairs well, while discounting the cost of your own labour. As for what to tell the proud new owner, I'd point out a couple of safety concerns, emphasize that there were many others, and that he would need professional help if the boat was going to be even marginally safe to leave the dock. He needs realistic information and he needs to know that, much as some of us like to give advice, you aren't going to give him any more advice on how to fix it. Ryk |
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