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Skip Gundlach

February 20th 04 01:30 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

I'm about to buy a boat with a Power Survivor 80 watermaker, installed in
2002. The owner died about 9 or so months ago, and there's some question as
to whether he ever used it.

I think I recall hearing that Chlorine was damaging to membranes. There are
two, about 2' long, on this model.

The broker has been flushing this system (not ever making water in the 8+
months it's been in a canal berth in Ft. Lauderdale) with city water every
few weeks, and assures me that this is proper for this model, claiming that
flushing as he does is adequate and frequent enough. Looking at the output
(overboard), it starts cloudy and goes clear.

So, is the first assertion (Chlorine is trouble) correct, and if not, does
the second assertion (this model doesn't require pickling), combined with
approximately 3-4 weeks between flushes, hold water, pardon the expression?

If there's trouble brewing, I'd greatly appreciate a link to support it, as
it's one of the items on the survey, and we're supposed to counter in a few
days...

Thanks, ever so much...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, anticipating

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Steve

February 20th 04 02:43 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

This broker doesn't know what he is doing or what he is talking about.. And
just looking at the discharge over the side doesn't prove anything..

All RO membranes are will be damaged by chlorine and if the system isn't
used regularly (once ever couple weeks) then it should have been layed up
with a pickling flush with Sodium Metabisufite solution or what ever the mfg
recommends..

If you serious about the purchase of this boat, then make your offer
contingent on a operational test of the unit by a "Qualified" person.. If
you in a major cruising port, you should be able to get someone from a RO
dealer/shop to come and check it out. Probably cost a few hundred buck
though. The surveyor isn't going to be able to tell you anything for sure.

BTW, those RO membranes aint cheap.. If you don't want to spend the money on
a technician to test the unit, then buy the boat, but subtract the estimated
cost of a pair of replacement mebranes..

--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Steve

February 20th 04 02:43 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Paul	February 20th 04 03:42 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

I can't tell you about your installation, but my Spectra watermaker allows
for fresh-water flushing with chlorinated water. It passes the flush water
through an activated-charcoal filter before it hits the membrane, so the
chorine is removed. This way I can perform regular backflushing when in my
slip, using my house tanks and keeping them filled with chlorinated city
water.

-Paul
s/v VALIS

"Steve" wrote in message
...
This broker doesn't know what he is doing or what he is talking about..
And
just looking at the discharge over the side doesn't prove anything..

All RO membranes are will be damaged by chlorine and if the system isn't
used regularly (once ever couple weeks) then it should have been layed up
with a pickling flush with Sodium Metabisufite solution or what ever the
mfg
recommends..

If you serious about the purchase of this boat, then make your offer
contingent on a operational test of the unit by a "Qualified" person.. If
you in a major cruising port, you should be able to get someone from a RO
dealer/shop to come and check it out. Probably cost a few hundred buck
though. The surveyor isn't going to be able to tell you anything for sure.

BTW, those RO membranes aint cheap.. If you don't want to spend the money
on
a technician to test the unit, then buy the boat, but subtract the
estimated
cost of a pair of replacement mebranes..

--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Paul	February 20th 04 03:42 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 04:24 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Take off $700 from the purchase price for the replacement of the
membranes. The broker may have prevented bacterial growth but he has
ruined the membranes. They are long gone. Chlorinated water is death
to RO membranes.

If they are standard 21"x2.5" membranes you can get Filmtec SW30-2520
membranes for about $200 each but don't tell the broker that. Have him
call Pur and get their ridiculous price. :-)

Skip Gundlach wrote:

I'm about to buy a boat with a Power Survivor 80 watermaker, installed in
2002. The owner died about 9 or so months ago, and there's some question as
to whether he ever used it.

I think I recall hearing that Chlorine was damaging to membranes. There are
two, about 2' long, on this model.

The broker has been flushing this system (not ever making water in the 8+
months it's been in a canal berth in Ft. Lauderdale) with city water every
few weeks, and assures me that this is proper for this model, claiming that
flushing as he does is adequate and frequent enough. Looking at the output
(overboard), it starts cloudy and goes clear.

So, is the first assertion (Chlorine is trouble) correct, and if not, does
the second assertion (this model doesn't require pickling), combined with
approximately 3-4 weeks between flushes, hold water, pardon the expression?

If there's trouble brewing, I'd greatly appreciate a link to support it, as
it's one of the items on the survey, and we're supposed to counter in a few
days...

Thanks, ever so much...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, anticipating

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 04:24 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Steve

February 20th 04 04:28 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in
the system..

Thanks for catching my oversight Paul..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Steve

February 20th 04 04:28 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in
the system..

Thanks for catching my oversight Paul..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 04:32 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can
absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing
with city water it will make very little difference.

On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't
want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker.
Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS
is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating.

The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking
for one than I have in building one. :-)

Steve wrote:

Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter in
the system..

Thanks for catching my oversight Paul..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 04:32 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Paul	February 20th 04 04:40 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Steve-

You're just lucky that this isn't "rec.boats". Over there I would be
obligated to taunt and demean you, and drag in a reference to weapons of
mass destruction.

Best,
Paul
s/v VALIS

"Steve" wrote in message
...
Opps! It never occured to me that there might have been a charcoal filter
in
the system..

Thanks for catching my oversight Paul..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Paul	February 20th 04 04:40 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Paul	February 20th 04 04:58 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Glenn-

I am surprised by your 8 month number. My Spectra backflush runs once a
week, and uses 3 gallons of fresh (chlorinated) water per flush. That is
only 106 gallons in 8 months. I don't have the charcoal filter specs, but
the element is at least 6 inches tall -- pretty big.

Of course, the Spectra manual states that the charcoal filters only last 6
months in service, so maybe it's a time, and not a volume thing? The
charcoal filter is only used for the backflush -- it isn't in-line with the
house water.

Best,
Paul
s/v VALIS

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04...
There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can
absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing
with city water it will make very little difference.

Paul	February 20th 04 04:58 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Skip Gundlach

February 20th 04 05:57 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Hi, Glenn, and group,

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:EcgZb.5743$23.1670@lakeread04...
There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can
absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing
with city water it will make very little difference.

That's an unknown to me. I'm pretty sure it has the filters, as what's
there looks like one of the prefilter kits sold, down to the bracket
intended to hold them up. Whether there's been any change, whether they're
intended to make city water flushing ok or not, I can't say, nor can I say
that it's happened with enough frequency to actually avoid fouling, or
whatever it is which destroys them, the membranes.

On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't
want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker.
Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS
is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating.

Thanks for the offer. I don't know that we'll be in a position to take
advantage of it, however, as we're days away from our counter *after* survey
and seatrial, awaiting only the written report.

Practically speaking, I know the broker and owner are not going to spring
for a commercial test, and I'm not going to drive down there again just for
that.

So, I'll just have to go with what I've got, and can get info on. At the
moment (still pretty early in the game of asking for input on the subject),
I have the suspicion, confirmed by several correspondents either here or on
one of several sailnet lists I subscribe to, that it's not been flushed
frequently enough. I believe that there are filters which might resolve the
Chlorine issue, but the flushing (based on what the broker told me, and it's
his word, and work, that's being relied on) is not nearly frequent enough.

All of my searching to date has not produced either a Power Survivor 80 for
sale in some catalog, much less a manual therefore (I was far too busy in
the survey/sea trial to remember to look in the manual, which I'm pretty
sure is on the boat), but what I have doesn't look like what's in the
40/160s I've been able to see. All the PS models I've seen have been a
single membrane, and this has two. This is also a 110 rather than 12v
installation, so I'm wondering if that's what's really there. In any event,
I'd far prefer to have some definition from the manual in order to present
on that option. It *is* one of the not-proven items (the only other being
the SSB) which the broker has agreed requires some consideration.

The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking
for one than I have in building one. :-)

For those waiting with bated breath, I'm going to post in more detail once I
get caught up, but right now I'm over my head in trying to get a reasoned
counter together while I wait for the written survey, and find insurance (no
luck so far, at any price), and, finally, settle on a yard where she'll go
when we leave. That date is still tentatively set for March 1, and we *do*
expect we'll get it worked out. You can see the survey pix at
www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery, and check the survey folder. The boat is
High Time, in another folder. However, the short story is that we're doing
just that. Research, investigation, offer, counter, accepted
counter-counter, surveys, sea trial have all happened. Receipt of the
report and final negotiations will happen within a week. We expect to sleep
aboard the weekend before, close first thing in the AM, turn the key and
leave.

Back to the story, I'll need something which I can use other than
scuttlebutt in order to support a demand for credit for new membranes.
Glenn, you could help with sources for me of the high-priced spread, along
with the economy reality, should it prove that way. Thanks to all - and
please let me know if you have a source for showing a picture of the actual
item (Power Survivor 80) claimed by the listing, and, even better, someplace
of an on-line manual. It may be simply that this was converted to 110, and
the rest is just difficult to see in the way it's laid out vs the pictures
of 40/160s I've seen, but in any case, I'll need something with authority to
expect it to be accepted.

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Skip Gundlach

February 20th 04 05:57 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

kre	February 20th 04 06:09 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

You don't want a Power Survivor 80 or any model from PUR or their
predecessor Recovery Engineering - it's worth nothing. Suggest they
remove it and lower the price. Or pay you to remove it and they can
sell it on eBay for parts.

Second - chlorine has killed the membrane - trust me - or call PUR.

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 01:30:09 GMT, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:

I'm about to buy a boat with a Power Survivor 80 watermaker, installed in
2002. The owner died about 9 or so months ago, and there's some question as
to whether he ever used it.

I think I recall hearing that Chlorine was damaging to membranes. There are
two, about 2' long, on this model.

The broker has been flushing this system (not ever making water in the 8+
months it's been in a canal berth in Ft. Lauderdale) with city water every
few weeks, and assures me that this is proper for this model, claiming that
flushing as he does is adequate and frequent enough. Looking at the output
(overboard), it starts cloudy and goes clear.

So, is the first assertion (Chlorine is trouble) correct, and if not, does
the second assertion (this model doesn't require pickling), combined with
approximately 3-4 weeks between flushes, hold water, pardon the expression?

If there's trouble brewing, I'd greatly appreciate a link to support it, as
it's one of the items on the survey, and we're supposed to counter in a few
days...

Thanks, ever so much...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, anticipating

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

kre	February 20th 04 06:09 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

kre	February 20th 04 06:11 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Point of fact - not ALL membranes are chlorine intolerant - but normal
marine watermaker units are. There are membranes that are mfg for home
aquariums, etc that are chlorine tolerant.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:43:36 -0800, "Steve" wrote:

This broker doesn't know what he is doing or what he is talking about.. And
just looking at the discharge over the side doesn't prove anything..

All RO membranes are will be damaged by chlorine and if the system isn't
used regularly (once ever couple weeks) then it should have been layed up
with a pickling flush with Sodium Metabisufite solution or what ever the mfg
recommends..

If you serious about the purchase of this boat, then make your offer
contingent on a operational test of the unit by a "Qualified" person.. If
you in a major cruising port, you should be able to get someone from a RO
dealer/shop to come and check it out. Probably cost a few hundred buck
though. The surveyor isn't going to be able to tell you anything for sure.

BTW, those RO membranes aint cheap.. If you don't want to spend the money on
a technician to test the unit, then buy the boat, but subtract the estimated
cost of a pair of replacement mebranes..

kre	February 20th 04 06:11 AM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Brian Whatcott

February 20th 04 12:58 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:32:52 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

There is a limit to how much chlorine an activated charcoal filter can
absorb. If the charcoal has not been changed in 8 months of flushing
with city water it will make very little difference.

On your trial sail take a TDS meter ( I will loan you one if you don't
want to spring for the $50) and make sure to try out the watermaker.
Measure the output. If it is less than 75% of the new spec or the TDS
is higher than 400 ppm start negotiating....

As usual, Glenn is on the money.
A TDS (total dissolved solids) meter with digital LCD display is now
to be had on line for $20 and shipping. Search on HM Digital.

These things are easily verified by a dip in distilled water, and the
domestic water supply. (round here, the latter is at the upper limit
of EPA acceptability) with readings of 0 and 500 ppm or mg/liter
respectively.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Brian Whatcott

February 20th 04 12:58 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 01:23 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Hi, Glenn, and group,

Practically speaking, I know the broker and owner are not going to spring
for a commercial test, and I'm not going to drive down there again just for
that.

So, I'll just have to go with what I've got, and can get info on. At the
moment (still pretty early in the game of asking for input on the subject),
I have the suspicion, confirmed by several correspondents either here or on
one of several sailnet lists I subscribe to, that it's not been flushed
frequently enough. I believe that there are filters which might resolve the
Chlorine issue, but the flushing (based on what the broker told me, and it's
his word, and work, that's being relied on) is not nearly frequent enough.

All watermakers have pre-filters but the carbon filters are separate.
There may even be two. One on the product line ans part of the final
treatment and, rarer, one on the flush water supply. but as you say, it
may be to late to check.

All of my searching to date has not produced either a Power Survivor 80 for
sale in some catalog, much less a manual therefore (I was far too busy in
the survey/sea trial to remember to look in the manual, which I'm pretty
sure is on the boat), but what I have doesn't look like what's in the
40/160s I've been able to see. All the PS models I've seen have been a
single membrane, and this has two. This is also a 110 rather than 12v
installation, so I'm wondering if that's what's really there. In any event,
I'd far prefer to have some definition from the manual in order to present
on that option. It *is* one of the not-proven items (the only other being
the SSB) which the broker has agreed requires some consideration.

The main thing is, BUY A BOAT!! You have put more labor into looking
for one than I have in building one. :-)

For those waiting with bated breath, I'm going to post in more detail once I
get caught up, but right now I'm over my head in trying to get a reasoned
counter together while I wait for the written survey, and find insurance (no
luck so far, at any price), and, finally, settle on a yard where she'll go
when we leave. That date is still tentatively set for March 1, and we *do*
expect we'll get it worked out. You can see the survey pix at
www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery, and check the survey folder. The boat is
High Time, in another folder. However, the short story is that we're doing
just that. Research, investigation, offer, counter, accepted
counter-counter, surveys, sea trial have all happened. Receipt of the
report and final negotiations will happen within a week. We expect to sleep
aboard the weekend before, close first thing in the AM, turn the key and
leave.

Back to the story, I'll need something which I can use other than
scuttlebutt in order to support a demand for credit for new membranes.
Glenn, you could help with sources for me of the high-priced spread, along
with the economy reality, should it prove that way. Thanks to all - and
please let me know if you have a source for showing a picture of the actual
item (Power Survivor 80) claimed by the listing, and, even better, someplace
of an on-line manual. It may be simply that this was converted to 110, and
the rest is just difficult to see in the way it's laid out vs the pictures
of 40/160s I've seen, but in any case, I'll need something with authority to
expect it to be accepted.

Here is the Filmtec datasheet. You will see that the free chlorine
tolerance is less than .1ppm.
http://www.dow.com/webapps/lit/litor.../609-00377.pdf

The PUR site does not cover watermakers but I found this site with the
entire line listed. http://www.paradise-marine.com/pur_watermakers.htm

It does not look like PUR makes either a two membrane or 120V system so
you are probably looking at something else. Which IMHO is a very good
thing. If the broker didn't know about the chlorine intolerance he may
be referring to all watermakers as "PUR" the way Klenex is used for
tissue.

One thing I did notice is that the PUR membranes are not standard sizes.
That is why they can charge twice as much for replacements.

Assuming they are standard 2.5" diameter (OD of the pressure vessle end
caps is about 3.25" and length is either 23" or 43" ) you can buy
SW30-2521 membranes for about $180 and SW30-2540s for about $290.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore

February 20th 04 01:23 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

DSK	February 20th 04 02:25 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Skip Gundlach wrote:

... It *is* one of the not-proven items (the only other being
the SSB) which the broker has agreed requires some consideration.

Skip, you're really trying to be 'way too scientific about this. The guy wants
to sell his boat, you want to buy it. Which of you is hungrier? Anything that
was not demonstrated to work, to your satisfaction, should be assumed
non-functional. That's the only rational way to assess it.

If your offer has been accepted and certain gear that was part of the deal turns
out to not work... write it off the top of your offer... or else swallow it.
It's a game of chicken, there is no scientific process for adjustment.

When we bought our trawler, I stated the exact principle above to the broker...
who bent over backwards to prove that all the stuff worked... but in some cases
it didn't. With the broker standing next to me, I looked it up in the West
Marine catalog, and wrote off double the retail price (for installation... and
in some cases that's a lowball figure). The owner wouldn't go for that, so I
walked. Later the broker called me back and we bought the boat... and are still
working on getting all major systems properly installed & operational.

The issue here is that you seem over committed... unwilling to walk. So why
should the broker *care* if you don't like the watermaker or the SSB?

Trying to help you out here!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK	February 20th 04 02:25 PM

Watermakers and Chlorine

Glenn Ashmore

February 21st 04 12:49 PM