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Standing rigging - stress calculations
Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing
rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
Get a copy of Brion Toss's Rigger's Apprentice. The process takes a number
of steps but it is not really complicated. The main thing is to know your righting moments which can be hard to find if you don't have the original design specs. -- Glenn Ashmore I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com wrote in message ... Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
The theoretical calculation is by determining the center of buoyancy,
the center mass of ballast and calculating the righting forces that would react at the top of the mast ... when the mast is pulled over to a heel angle of 45 degrees. You can do the same experimentally by restraining the boat (so that it can roll unimpeded) and by pulling horizontally (or calculating the trigonometric difference for other angles) from the top of the mast until the mast is at a 45 degree angle to the horizontal ... then MEASURE the stress/strain in the wire (cap shrouds). The induced/ forced 45 degree heel would develope the maximum static loads in the wire (by the magic of trigonometry). This would establish the max. 'actual' target load in the wires .... and (important) then make everything 4 times as strong for 'offshore', 3 times as strong for 'coastal' and twice as string for 'inshore'. I prefer a higher Factor of Safety (FS=6 ... many of the reknown 'offshore' designers tout FS=4 but when you backcalculate their work I find FS 'well above' FS=4) for offshore. Simple answer .... your designer probably knew what he/she was doing in rigging selection by adding the proper safety factors after calculating the max. theoretical shroud loads ......... and typically (on a purely mathematical basis) the cap shrouds would be tensioned for a 12-15% load (mast/boat not heeled) based on the ultimate tensile strength of the exisiting wire, ditto forestay/backstay and all the other shrouds would then be trigonmetrically calculated based on the 12-15% of the caps and backstay. Very simple answer .....12-15% on all shrouds, then go sailing to see if the mast stays perfectly in column while on a heel approaching 45 deg. Intermediates .... probably next to worthless from a stress standpoint. Do the trig. calcs. and you'll see that they react with extreme tension to the chainplates because of their very shallow intercept angle with the mast (hounds) .... use runners instead of intermediates for better mathematical solution and less stress/strain as developed on the intermediate chainplates. ;-) |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 6:09 am, wrote:
Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? -----------------www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com- *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- If you're doing it yourself I'd suggest _The Principles of Yacht Design_, Larrson & Eliasson now in its third edition. It has worked examples using accepted guidelines. While I'm a Brian Toss fan, too, Larrson & Eliasson is much better for this kind of thing. Any competent rig designer will be able to get the answers for you, too. -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 1:39*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
wrote Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging? Yes. http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Barque -- Roger Long So how tight did you set the cap shrouds on Dimillo's Restuarant??? Love the shear line of that barque !!!!! .... true art-form. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:09:42 -0700, wrote:
Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- From scratch? Find the forces on the mast. Find the dimensions of the mast attachments and the angles that the rigging makes. Then the trig is straightforward. Finding the forces promises to be the difficult bit. Off the top: one way I suppose would be to attach a line at a strategic point on the mast, and attempt to pull the boat to a 45 degree heel or so. Measure that force and angle, and that might provide some basis for a reasonable estimate. Good luck. Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
And what am I not seeing here - information on calc stresses??
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:39:59 -0500, "Roger Long" wrote: wrote Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging? Yes. http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Barque ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 12:10 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
... Rich was pointing you in the right direction. The stress on the rigging is strictly a function of the stability of the hull. Actual wind velocities are irrelevant except as distribution of loading may change as sail is reduced. ... This isn't strictly true for headstays and backstays in a masthead sloop. While wind loads on them will be limited by stability actual tension will be limited by hull stiffness and available tackle. -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 12:47 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
... there are limits to degree of precision that can be expected in newsgroup posts. I should have said "loads in addition to pre-tensioning and weight". ... I believe that shrouds are sized to about 3x the expected static load per wire at 30 degrees heel and headstays around 15 times. This seems to put the two types of stay into noticeably different categories when doing stress calcs. I'm with you on newsgroup expectations, of course. Though, as I mentioned before, there is a very complete discussion of how to do these calcs including a worked example in Larsson & Eliasson's book. -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
"RichH" wrote in message ... The theoretical calculation is by determining the center of buoyancy, the center mass of ballast and calculating the righting forces that would react at the top of the mast ... when the mast is pulled over to a heel angle of 45 degrees. You can do the same experimentally by restraining the boat (so that it can roll unimpeded) and by pulling horizontally (or calculating the trigonometric difference for other angles) from the top of the mast until the mast is at a 45 degree angle to the horizontal ... then MEASURE the stress/strain in the wire (cap shrouds). The induced/ forced 45 degree heel would develope the maximum static loads in the wire (by the magic of trigonometry). snipped It seems to me that to pull the boat over to 45 degrees using a line from the top of the mast would put a much higher stress on the cap shrouds than you would get by heeling the boat to the same amount by sail pressure, which would spread some of the load onto the intermediates and lowers. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 6:07*pm, "Edgar" wrote:
"RichH" wrote in message ... The theoretical calculation is by determining the center of buoyancy, the center mass of ballast and calculating the righting forces that would react at the top of the mast ... when the mast is pulled over to a heel angle of 45 degrees. You can do the same experimentally by restraining the boat (so that it can roll unimpeded) *and by pulling horizontally (or calculating the trigonometric difference for other angles) from the top of the mast until the mast is at a 45 degree angle to the horizontal ... then MEASURE the stress/strain in the wire (cap shrouds). *The induced/ forced 45 degree heel would develope the maximum static loads in the wire (by the magic of trigonometry). snipped It seems to me that to pull the boat over to 45 degrees using a line from the top of the mast would put a much higher stress on the cap shrouds than you would get by heeling the boat to the same amount by sail pressure, which would spread some of the load onto the intermediates and lowers. Doesnt matter where the maximum stress comes from ... the shrouds dont know the difference as they are in reaction to that stress application. Doesnt matter if windloading heels the boat to 45 degrees or by a rope tied to the top of the mast heels the boat to the same 45 degrees .... as if the boat is at 45 degrees over the stress in the wires will be IDENTICAL. :-) |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 1:12 pm, RichH wrote:
... Doesnt matter where the maximum stress comes from ... the shrouds dont know the difference as they are in reaction to that stress application. Doesnt matter if windloading heels the boat to 45 degrees or by a rope tied to the top of the mast heels the boat to the same 45 degrees .... as if the boat is at 45 degrees over the stress in the wires will be IDENTICAL. :-) It isn't really required to do this. Under IOR a method was developed for estimating a yachts stability from small changes in trim angle when moving a weight a certain longitudinal distance. They are still pretty good estimators of stability, particularly if you yacht wasn't designed to fool them. Again, L&E discuss the methods and work and example. -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 6:33*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
I think you'd better stick to filters Rich. -- Roger Long Huh? |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:12:30 -0800 (PST), RichH
wrote: On Jan 31, 6:07*pm, "Edgar" wrote: "RichH" wrote in message ... The theoretical calculation is by determining the center of buoyancy, the center mass of ballast and calculating the righting forces that would react at the top of the mast ... when the mast is pulled over to a heel angle of 45 degrees. You can do the same experimentally by restraining the boat (so that it can roll unimpeded) *and by pulling horizontally (or calculating the trigonometric difference for other angles) from the top of the mast until the mast is at a 45 degree angle to the horizontal ... then MEASURE the stress/strain in the wire (cap shrouds). *The induced/ forced 45 degree heel would develope the maximum static loads in the wire (by the magic of trigonometry). snipped [Edgar] It seems to me that to pull the boat over to 45 degrees using a line from the top of the mast would put a much higher stress on the cap shrouds than you would get by heeling the boat to the same amount by sail pressure, which would spread some of the load onto the intermediates and lowers. Doesnt matter where the maximum stress comes from ... the shrouds dont know the difference as they are in reaction to that stress application. Doesnt matter if windloading heels the boat to 45 degrees or by a rope tied to the top of the mast heels the boat to the same 45 degrees .... as if the boat is at 45 degrees over the stress in the wires will be IDENTICAL. :-) I don't think so.... I'm with Edgar Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
ummmmm Im a mechanical engineer and + some other stuff. A long time
ago I used to do stress-analysis for high mobile steel, cranes, etc. all AIChE stuff (FS=6). One thing Im 'not' going to do is sit and hand calculate all the elastic strain at load. I'll take a whack at your explanation .... and get back at ya. :-) |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
RichH wrote:
On Jan 31, 1:39 pm, "Roger Long" wrote: wrote Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging? Yes. http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm#Barque -- Roger Long So how tight did you set the cap shrouds on Dimillo's Restuarant??? Love the shear line of that barque !!!!! .... true art-form. She's sweetly shaped, Roger. You certainly have the eye. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
RichH wrote:
On Jan 31, 6:33 pm, "Roger Long" wrote: I think you'd better stick to filters Rich. -- Roger Long Huh? If the mast were perfectly rigid then what you said would be true. But they are not. If the rope is attached right at the shrouds, the opposide shroud would take near 100% of the load. If the rope is attached ABOVE the shroud, the mast will bend - top toward the rope and away from the rope below that. That would be the load taken up by the lowers and it could be in the opposite direction even. Were the rope attached BELOW the shroud??? |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On 2008-01-31 18:12:30 -0500, RichH said:
Doesn't matter if windloading heels the boat to 45 degrees or by a rope tied to the top of the mast heels the boat to the same 45 degrees .... as if the boat is at 45 degrees over the stress in the wires will be IDENTICAL. :-) The loads aren't identical, but for the purposes of evaluating the standing rigging, the differences aren't significant. As another said elsewhere in the thread: Each boat designer will figure out those loads and add what they believe is a proper fudge factor to come up with a wire size. When a boat's been successfully sailed in all sorts of conditions for 30+ years, you gotta believe that they were at least in the right ballpark. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 5:13 pm, Jere Lull wrote:
... The loads aren't identical, but for the purposes of evaluating the standing rigging, the differences aren't significant. ... Well, I don't think that's right. I bet the scantiling rules require that you consider the reefed condition for a reason rather than to just make work for designers. Hey, have I mentioned that there's this book...:) -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
nnnnah, its easy to calculate all the 'joints' as individual 'free
bodies', even when simplifying by omitting elastic strain (of mast etc.) and then simply balance all the free body connections as sums. The original poster's question was "calculating stress in the standing rigging" ... not necessary to calculate wind/sail loads as they can be equated as reactions via their CE's and resultant distributive loads as moments versus the 'connections' ... just like you do with any 'beam' calculation (mast). The above will work as a close approximation ... at least that was the method of most designers that Ive asked this direct question ... all have replied: (paraphrased) ... mathematically pull the boat over onto a 45 degree heel, calculate the restorative loads ... the moment arm of mass versus center of buoyancy which will result in an close approximation of the cap shroud tension ... then calculate all the rest of the shrouds based on trigonometric relationship to the cap shroud tension, etc. etc.; add/multiply by appropriate factors of safety, etc. to account for sailing at beyond normal sailing angles (GT 45 degress), etc. Those scantilings when back calculated seem to still be appropriate in most cases. :-) |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Jan 31, 5:41 pm, RichH wrote:
... The above will work as a close approximation ... at least that was the method of most designers that Ive asked this direct question ... Yeah, there seems to be a lot of rules of thumb and hand waving on this. I'm certainly no expert. The only rig design I've paid for was done using some magic and proprietary computer code. But, since the OP wanted to know how much strain he was looking at and he already has the rig, wouldn't it be easiest to go look up the wire's specs from the provider and then make up a strain gage that could be read while under sail? I think a clever person with a meter stick, some tape and a sharpie might be able to get pretty good figures. Maybe a good Loose gage would be adequate if looking for a store bough option. But if you really want to work it out theres this... Oh, forget it... :) -- Tom. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
The 'original' question was:
Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done?" Please explain a bit further ... and/or answer the following: 1. Are you setting/tuning the original rigging you have ... based on some % values of the existing wire? 2. Are you selecting / checking new wire rigging? thinking of increasing or decreasing the wire diameter, etc.? 3. Do you intend to also 'prebend' the mast? if so how many spreaders and is the rig mast headed or fractional (what % fractional) 4. Etc. ? If you are looking for a 'plain vanilla' static tuning; then, set all wire ar 12-15% tension (by use of a tension gauge) ... then go sailing at a heel to see if these values of the lowers, intermediates are correct to keep the mast straight. Otherwise, if you have a plan view and deck view of the boat, or can post or list the URL of the plan, etc, views AND if you can give me the relative shape (luff/leech/foot dimensions) of each sail, I will calculate the approximate % loadings in all the shrouds for you so that the rigging is 'perfectly tuned/ balanced' on a % of ultimate tensile strength for you ..... if that is what you are looking for. :-) |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:33:11 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: ...since the OP wanted to know how much strain he was looking at and he already has the rig, wouldn't it be easiest to go look up the wire's specs from the provider and then make up a strain gage that could be read while under sail? I think a clever person with a meter stick, some tape and a sharpie might be able to get pretty good figures. ... -- Tom. A meter stick to measure strain is perhaps not the best way, but the suggestion has merit. The pro approach to stress testing involves strain gages. They need a little smooth patch of structure less than a square inch to glue to. That's a difficulty for rigging, sure enough. But a thin aluminum strip, 3 or 4 inches long, strapped securely to the rigging, with the strain gage measuring the stretch of the strip which is transmitted from the wire would do the job perfectly well. Low noise amps, data acquisition PC and you're in business. Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:08:02 -0600, Brian Whatcott
wrote: But a thin aluminum strip, 3 or 4 inches long, strapped securely to the rigging, with the strain gage measuring the stretch of the strip which is transmitted from the wire would do the job perfectly well. Low noise amps, data acquisition PC and you're in business. It might be easy to epoxy the aluminum strip to a rigging wire. Heat will break the bond without damage to the wire. Casady |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Feb 1, 8:54*am, (Richard Casady) wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:08:02 -0600, Brian Whatcott wrote: But *a thin aluminum strip, 3 or 4 inches long, strapped securely to the rigging, with the strain gage measuring the stretch of the strip which is transmitted from the wire would do the job perfectly well. Low noise amps, data acquisition PC and you're in business. It might be easy to epoxy the aluminum strip to a rigging wire. Heat will break the bond without damage to the wire. Casady ... and you calibrate the strain gauge against 'what' standard? Would be a good idea when racing to have a strain gage mounted on the headstay .... then you can match the headstay sag versus the luff hollow that the sailmaker cut into the jib/genoas leading edge .... would insure bombproof genoa leading edge/luff shape. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
Get a used copy of Skene's Elements of Yacht Design. The spars and rigging
chapter has everything you need to know in order to size both the spars themselves and the standing rigging. Barnes and Noble's online used and out-of-print books department would be a good place to find a copy. Tom Dacon wrote in message ... Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:21:59 -0800 (PST), RichH
wrote: Would be a good idea when racing to have a strain gage mounted on the headstay Many serious racing boats do exactly that. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
wrote in message ... Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- Instead of calculating it, why not just measure it? All you have to do is measure the speed of sound in the particular piece of rigging. The speed is controlled by the tension in the rigging. Just measure the ratio of the speeds of the longitudinal to transverse waves and you know the tension. It's not hard and can be done with simple devices. Bluto |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
Here's why:
http://www.ndt.net/article/wcndt00/p...083/idn083.htm There is a simpler "how" than described. "Bluto" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Does anybody know how to go about calculating the stresses in standing rigging. I have an masthead sloop rigged 50 ' FRP boat. 4 lowers, 2 intermediates, 2 uppers, head & back stay. All inboard rigging. I'd like to know the tensions in the various stays - vs the tensile strength of the wires. Any ideas on how this is done? ----------------- www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed* Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road ----------------- Instead of calculating it, why not just measure it? All you have to do is measure the speed of sound in the particular piece of rigging. The speed is controlled by the tension in the rigging. Just measure the ratio of the speeds of the longitudinal to transverse waves and you know the tension. It's not hard and can be done with simple devices. Bluto |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
http://www.worldoftest.com/max.htm
http://www.surebolt.com/nasa_story.htm This will measure up to 50' http://www.norbar.com/Products/tabid...5/Default.aspx Or the old standby for cables http://www.landfallnavigation.com/hlpt2.html |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
wrote in message ... On 3 Feb 2008 16:33:02 -0600, Dave wrote: On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 13:34:36 -0800, Captain Morgan said: [snip] Forget to put your socks in the wash, Charlie? Hi Dave. I stopped posting as C.W. Morgan quite a long time ago. Your buddy Crantz likes to use that nic sometimes when he finds the need to reply to his own posts. That isn't me but nice try. If I had to guess, I'd guess it is you. The headers, account, etc, match C.W. Morgan. Whatever, at least the person is polite and on topic. Don't be so afraid to take credit for being nice unless you see it as an ill fitting suit. Amen! |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
I see no connection namewise between CW Morgan and Captain Morgan. The
Captain is a famous pirate and a brand of rum. I don't see how one can change the headers they are all set by the Usenet provider and the newsreader software. The newsreader software is all compiled code so there is no chance of changing that without the source code documentation and knowing something about programming. I think it is all coincidence. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:00:24 -0500, wrote:
All of a sudden I was only seeing replies to his posts and realized I was also missing posts from a couple of others who use that ISP. Interesting. Larry's posts disappeared from Supernews for a while but started showing up again a few days ago. I've never had a problem seeing Roger's posts. |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:00:24 -0500, wrote: All of a sudden I was only seeing replies to his posts and realized I was also missing posts from a couple of others who use that ISP. Interesting. Larry's posts disappeared from Supernews for a while but started showing up again a few days ago. I've never had a problem seeing Roger's posts. Same here! Gordon |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:00:24 -0500, wrote: All of a sudden I was only seeing replies to his posts and realized I was also missing posts from a couple of others who use that ISP. Interesting. Larry's posts disappeared from Supernews for a while but started showing up again a few days ago. I've never had a problem seeing Roger's posts. Yes, I saw the same thing. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Standing rigging - stress calculations
wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 12:34:10 -0700, "Bob Crantz" wrote: I see no connection namewise between CW Morgan and Captain Morgan. Note that Morgan, and Morgan, have very similar spelling. Similar, yes. The Captain is a famous pirate and a brand of rum. There is also a famous boat designer & builder named Charley Morgan. Note that Charlie and Charley have slightly different spellings. I'm not him either! Charley is usually female. I don't see how one can change the headers they are all set by the Usenet provider and the newsreader software. The newsreader software is all compiled code so there is no chance of changing that without the source code documentation and knowing something about programming. Yet, its done all the time! How can one decompile code? I suppose given enough time one might figure something out but I think it is beyond the means of just about anyone. Most of that header stuff is inserted by others downstream, that can't be changed unless someone runs a USP and can control the routing. If you compare my headers, and "Captain Morgan", however, you will see that we are apparently in two different time zones. Oops! Yes I see and it's not my time zone either. So it is neither of us, it is someone off in the Alaska or Hawaii time zone. I think it is all coincidence. I think it's mostly specious. Probably just harmonic convergence. |
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