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AIS
ACR was advertizing a class b AIS transponder at the Seattle boat
show and they claim it is available in Canada for about $1000. This includes the vhf and gps antennas. They don't sell in the US because they haven't been approved yet in the US! Gordon |
AIS
In article ,
Gordon wrote: ACR was advertizing a class b AIS transponder at the Seattle boat show and they claim it is available in Canada for about $1000. This includes the vhf and gps antennas. They don't sell in the US because they haven't been approved yet in the US! Gordon Simrad's (now a Navico brand) AI50 is about the same, including an own display - not yet ratified in the US on non-technical reasons I guess. Marc -- remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail http://www.heusser.com |
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In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote: "Marc Heusser" d wrote display - not yet ratified in the US on non-technical reasons I guess. Same reasons the Coast Guard isn't listening for DSC distress calls. Same reasons that, despite the over hyped but still vital needs of homeland security, billions were spent on new vessels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. Marc -- remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail http://www.heusser.com |
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Marc Heusser wrote:
In article , "Roger Long" wrote: "Marc Heusser" d wrote display - not yet ratified in the US on non-technical reasons I guess. Same reasons the Coast Guard isn't listening for DSC distress calls. Same reasons that, despite the over hyped but still vital needs of homeland security, billions were spent on new vessels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. Stephen |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG
without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. Cheers Marty, Living in the True North |
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Marty wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen |
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"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Remember the light bulb joke... how many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb... just one. He puts the bulb in the socket and the world revolves around him. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Jan 27, 1:43*pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Marc Heusser" d wrote display - not yet ratified in the US on non-technical reasons I guess. Same reasons the Coast Guard isn't listening for DSC distress calls. *Same reasons that, despite the over hyped but still vital needs of homeland security, billions were spent on new vessels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. *Even worse to be paying for. -- Roger Long Oh come on Roger..What's 94 million dollars and 8 cutters trashed ? It's not like the 8th district is short on vessels and refusing to go out in rough weather is it? Joe |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Objective? I don't think so. Cheers Marty |
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Capt. JG wrote:
In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Remember the light bulb joke... how many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb... just one. He puts the bulb in the socket and the world revolves around him. Certainly seems apt in Stephen's case, many Germans thought his way in 1938.... Cheers Marty |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Not much to be proud of here anymore. Graft grabbing legislators who do nothing. For instance, a rebate from the almighty to spur the economy. Except the poor and the elderly won't get as much, if any, than someone making 70 grand a year. I'm on soc sec and I got a cost of living raise this year. Whoopee, they also raised the amount they take out for Medicare so I got a net gain of 30 bucks a month. My senator got a raise of 375 bucks a month and he/she doesn't have to pay for any medical! And now what do we have to choose from for a new prez? Lets see.........A lady( her denomination is the dollar) who spent eight years in the senate and got only one important piece of legislation passed, 100 million to build a museum for Woodstock! An islamic black man with absolutely no experience in government or foreign affairs An ambulance chasing methodist lawyer A baptist geriatric ex pow who swings with the tide better than a boat at anchor A Roman Catholic mayor who happened to be in charge when terrorists attacked even tho he was probably in bed with one of his honeys at the time A mormon wall street investor, I wonder where his loyalties will lie A baptist guvner with a funny name that loves taxes I think I'll go cruising! Gordon |
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Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Remember the light bulb joke... how many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb... just one. He puts the bulb in the socket and the world revolves around him. Yeah, US citizens have had guilt about their advantaged place in the world for decades. So much so that many have turned a microscope on themselves and magnified their faults so large that they can no longer see much of the good in their country. Sad, really. Stephen |
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Marty wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Put it all together, along with economic freedoms, climate, quality of life, etc, etc, and the US is number one, like it's been for a long time. Stephen |
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Gordon wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Not much to be proud of here anymore. Graft grabbing legislators who do nothing. For instance, a rebate from the almighty to spur the economy. Except the poor and the elderly won't get as much, if any, than someone making 70 grand a year. I'm on soc sec and I got a cost of living raise this year. Whoopee, they also raised the amount they take out for Medicare so I got a net gain of 30 bucks a month. My senator got a raise of 375 bucks a month and he/she doesn't have to pay for any medical! And now what do we have to choose from for a new prez? Lets see.........A lady( her denomination is the dollar) who spent eight years in the senate and got only one important piece of legislation passed, 100 million to build a museum for Woodstock! An islamic black man with absolutely no experience in government or foreign affairs An ambulance chasing methodist lawyer A baptist geriatric ex pow who swings with the tide better than a boat at anchor A Roman Catholic mayor who happened to be in charge when terrorists attacked even tho he was probably in bed with one of his honeys at the time A mormon wall street investor, I wonder where his loyalties will lie A baptist guvner with a funny name that loves taxes Yeah, pretty bad, eh. But like Churchill said. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have come along so far. Stephen |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Put it all together, along with economic freedoms, climate, quality of life, etc, etc, and the US is number one, like it's been for a long time. Ah well, yet another example of the shortcomings of your educational system; conversely a tribute your Ministry of Propaganda... Cheers Marty |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Yeah, pretty bad, eh. But like Churchill said. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have come along so far. Good grief Stevie, is there no end to to your gullibility? Cheers Marty |
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Marty wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Put it all together, along with economic freedoms, climate, quality of life, etc, etc, and the US is number one, like it's been for a long time. Ah well, yet another example of the shortcomings of your educational system; conversely a tribute your Ministry of Propaganda... Ah, the ad hominem fallacy, refuge of those with no argument. BTW, my education left me a lefty liberal like you, which I've been until the last ten years ago, despite the ongoing worldwide lefty liberal media deluge. Stephen |
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Stephen Trapani wrote:
Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Put it all together, along with economic freedoms, climate, quality of life, etc, etc, and the US is number one, like it's been for a long time. Ah well, yet another example of the shortcomings of your educational system; conversely a tribute your Ministry of Propaganda... Ah, the ad hominem fallacy, refuge of those with no argument. Hardly the case, considering your complete lack of any reasoning to refute my allegations. Merely a logical conclusion. I suggest you review the UN's criteria for nominating the best countries in the world to live in, You'll find that your particular little set is included; however contrary to your assertion, the US has not been listed as number one, ever. my education left me a lefty liberal like you What was that about ad hominema, (attacks in this case)? You have no idea as to my politcal leanings, but I'll try to provide you with a little edification, they're not liberal. Cheers Marty As for my politlcal leaning, you seem |
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On 2008-01-27 17:25:16 -0500, Stephen Trapani said:
Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. The measure that I believe approaches objectivity is how many want to live there --or leave-- legally or illegally. (Yes, I think we're in agreement, but this seemed to be the best place to break in.) -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:13:28 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: ......objectively, by any reasonable measure. Not according the UN, or many other studies. Tell me that your life expectancy is the longest in the world, that you have the lowest rate of infant mortality, that you have the highest rate of literacy, that you have the greatest percentage of population with decent health care, that you have the lowest rate of violent crime on the planet, that you have the lowest rate of recidivism, that you have the most civil liberties, that you have the most open government.... the list is huge. Put it all together, along with economic freedoms, climate, quality of life, etc, etc, and the US is number one, like it's been for a long time. Ah well, yet another example of the shortcomings of your educational system; conversely a tribute your Ministry of Propaganda... Ah, the ad hominem fallacy, refuge of those with no argument. BTW, my education left me a lefty liberal like you, which I've been until the last ten years ago, despite the ongoing worldwide lefty liberal media deluge. Stephen What the unfortunate comment was meant to represent is the sad but true fact that the US does not have the best life expectancy and as a consequence not the best infant mortality figures. The US does not have the largest proportion of population exposed to Health care, not the highest literacy rate, etc., etc. But as many people who are willing to court death to get here will agree, it is a very desirable place to live. Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
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What the unfortunate comment was meant to represent is the sad but true fact that the US does not have the best life expectancy and as a consequence not the best infant mortality figures. The US does not have the largest proportion of population exposed to Health care, not the highest literacy rate, etc., etc. But as many people who are willing to court death to get here will agree, it is a very desirable place to live. Brian Whatcott Altus OK Now that is a true statement. Cheers Marty |
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Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-01-27 17:25:16 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. The measure that I believe approaches objectivity is how many want to live there --or leave-- legally or illegally. (Yes, I think we're in agreement, but this seemed to be the best place to break in.) Yup, partly due shear physical size, and proximity; it is after all somewhat of bitch to propel a home made raft to Iceland or Norway from one of the many less desirable countries. Cheers Marty |
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Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-01-27 17:25:16 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote: All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. I disagree. For example, there is a sailboat that handles blue water best, objectively, all other things being equal. It could probably even be measured with instruments, (maybe one or two of which hasn't been invented yet). There is a best sailboat for making the best use of the wind. And on and on. There is best NFL football team every year, objectively. There is a best place to start a business, objectively, based upon demand and local unavoidable expenses, and on and on. Sure, maybe you can say that 'best' with respect to things like paintings and songs is subjective, but not every 'best' is subjective and there are plenty of objective measures for the best country in the world. Including this one: The measure that I believe approaches objectivity is how many want to live there --or leave-- legally or illegally. Stephen |
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"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "Stephen Trapani" wrote in message ... Marty wrote: Stephen Trapani wrote:essels for the USCG without getting so much as a usable dinghy. It's so depressing to watch. Even worse to be paying for. I do not envy you on that - what a pity for such a wonderful land. All that and still the best country in the world. In your eyes, not in a good many others. No, not in my eyes, objectively, by any reasonable measure. Stephen Remember the light bulb joke... how many Americans does it take to screw in a light bulb... just one. He puts the bulb in the socket and the world revolves around him. Yeah, US citizens have had guilt about their advantaged place in the world for decades. So much so that many have turned a microscope on themselves and magnified their faults so large that they can no longer see much of the good in their country. Sad, really. Stephen The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... but, despite our shortcomings and the fact that other countries do a host of things a lot better/smarter, I wouldn't trade places with anyone from anywhere. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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Capt. JG wrote:
The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... but, despite our shortcomings and the fact that other countries do a host of things a lot better/smarter, I wouldn't trade places with anyone from anywhere. Indeed, most people living in prosperous, relatively free countries would say exactly the same thing. My beef is chest beating Neanderthals screaming "My country is the best!". There are a good many fine places to live, each has its' merits and its' drawbacks. Cheers Marty |
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Marty wrote:
Capt. JG wrote: The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... but, despite our shortcomings and the fact that other countries do a host of things a lot better/smarter, I wouldn't trade places with anyone from anywhere. Indeed, most people living in prosperous, relatively free countries would say exactly the same thing. My beef is chest beating Neanderthals screaming "My country is the best!". There are a good many fine places to live, each has its' merits and its' drawbacks. And one of them has the most merits and the least drawbacks. Whether or not that is the US, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion about which one it is, even if it is one's own, especially when one is not screaming. There is also nothing wrong with defending one's own country from false criticism. You should have more confidence and less self loathing. There is nothing wrong with living in the best place on earth, really. You don't have to feel guilty. Stephen |
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Capt JG spoke:
The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... Yes, and the last one, and the one before that, and... Oh yeah, remember Carter - now THAT was quite an effective leadership! Sheesh! Of course according to the Democraps the Career Criminals Clintons were just disliked by the press... How about Truman? Turns out that everything Sen. McCarthy said about commie spies in his administration was true including the names he named - and that was corroborated by the Soviets when they opened up their KGB files. You might want to take a look at ALL the administrations the U.S. has ever had, you will find that there has never been a "perfect" U.S. or administration. After all, they are two things that make having a "perfect" country pretty difficult - they (the leaders and politicians) are human and therefore faulty, and, a democracy, even a republican form of democracy is a very difficult thing to manage without the 'Gimme what I want and everything I can get' crowd destroying it from within like most other democracies before. And oh yeah, the politicians - ALL the politicians, are the biggest 'Gimme' crowd out there. Sad to say, there can be no politics without corruption. If you can find a totally uncorrupted administration of any country then I know I can point to an outright liar. And don't forget the 'Gimme everything I can get' crowd of citizens that push their fav politician to be as corrupt as possible, and then make excuses for him and re-elect him. Anyone here want to trash this country in favor of letting that paragon of virtue, the UN, come in and run things? Can you imagine this country run just like, or by the UN? And you have the gall to think *WE* are corrupt??? (Hell, compared to them, we are the greatest most honest and benign nation that ever existed) Well, it very possibly could happen if we as a country don't wise up soon and stop supporting politicians that support that assinine criminal organization. And as for the idiots (and I really do mean idiots) who think anything the UN says about us is valid or even slightly resembles truth, then you are blinded by your hatred and predjudices just like the UN and you clearly don't have the cognitive abilities to recognize anything true or false, you just repeat what your politicians told you to think and say. Besides, most people in this country, just like outsiders, don't do ANY research on their own to find out what actually *is* true about what goes on here, nor are many honest enough to report what is totally true rather than just what supports their own political leanings. They just enjoy trashing us from within and without to suit their personal agendas. And as bad as some of you (US citizen) America haters think this country is, I don't see you leaving. Try living in some other country for a few years (we won't miss you, promise), you will most likely, unfortunately, come back - they nearly all eventually come back - because in spite of our shortcomings, taken as a whole, we still have the best, most desireable country in the world to live in. Rave on, I'm deleting this thread. Red |
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"Marty" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... but, despite our shortcomings and the fact that other countries do a host of things a lot better/smarter, I wouldn't trade places with anyone from anywhere. Indeed, most people living in prosperous, relatively free countries would say exactly the same thing. My beef is chest beating Neanderthals screaming "My country is the best!". There are a good many fine places to live, each has its' merits and its' drawbacks. Cheers Marty I wouldn't mind living in New Zealand... that's a nice place, and the sailing is almost as good. LOL -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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"Red" wrote in message
... Capt JG spoke: The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... Yes, and the last one, and the one before that, and... snip Take two drinks and call someone else in the morning.. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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On Jan 28, 2:54 am,
Capt JG spoke: The US certainly isn't perfect... witness the current administration... Red wrote: Yes, and the last one, and the one before that, and... (snip)... ... How about Truman? Turns out that everything Sen. McCarthy said about commie spies in his administration was true including the names he named - and that was corroborated by the Soviets when they opened up their KGB files. Right. You mean the KGB had Uncle Joe's laundry list in their files? My my my. Alger Hiss was indeed a spy, although a very ineffective one. As for the rest, it was a right-wing whack-job fantasy... guess that must be the attraction for you... DSK |
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On 2008-01-27 23:35:28 -0500, Stephen Trapani said:
"Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. I disagree. For example, there is a sailboat that handles blue water best, objectively, all other things being equal. Despite that I was commenting on "best country", there isn't even a truly objective measure of the best blue water boat ;-) Some say crab crusher, some say cat; both may be right -- for themselves. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-01-27 23:35:28 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. I disagree. For example, there is a sailboat that handles blue water best, objectively, all other things being equal. Despite that I was commenting on "best country", there isn't even a truly objective measure of the best blue water boat ;-) Some say crab crusher, some say cat; both may be right -- for themselves. I may have been too general. There is one model that is best at handling pounding forces without breaking up. There is one model that is best at being steady in rough water. There is one model that uses the wind best. There is one model that has the best living accomodations, etc. Stephen |
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On 2008-01-28 22:07:46 -0500, Stephen Trapani said:
Jere Lull wrote: On 2008-01-27 23:35:28 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. I disagree. For example, there is a sailboat that handles blue water best, objectively, all other things being equal. Despite that I was commenting on "best country", there isn't even a truly objective measure of the best blue water boat ;-) Some say crab crusher, some say cat; both may be right -- for themselves. I may have been too general. There is one model that is best at handling pounding forces without breaking up. There is one model that is best at being steady in rough water. There is one model that uses the wind best. There is one model that has the best living accomodations, etc. And, depending on which the "measurer" deems most important, quite different boats become "best". I'm not intending to beat on you, just using your posts to demonstrate my point. Truth be told, our beloved Xan was NOT what we envisioned when we considered our perfect boat requirements. But she has grown on us as she delivers all that and more. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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Jere Lull wrote:
On 2008-01-28 22:07:46 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: Jere Lull wrote: On 2008-01-27 23:35:28 -0500, Stephen Trapani said: "Best" is not objective. It's subjective. The choice of statistics to include or exclude is based upon the measurer's biases, so the results will be as well. I disagree. For example, there is a sailboat that handles blue water best, objectively, all other things being equal. Despite that I was commenting on "best country", there isn't even a truly objective measure of the best blue water boat ;-) Some say crab crusher, some say cat; both may be right -- for themselves. I may have been too general. There is one model that is best at handling pounding forces without breaking up. There is one model that is best at being steady in rough water. There is one model that uses the wind best. There is one model that has the best living accomodations, etc. And, depending on which the "measurer" deems most important, quite different boats become "best". Depending upon which the measurer deems most important, different boats become the best to them, right, but that doesn't change which boat is objectively best. If you measure all the factors objectively there will be one that ranks best over them all, even combining all the factors, but some may not want the overall best, maybe one doesn't care about the interior accommodations, say, but wants the strongest boat. But this doesn't change that there is an objectively best boat, just like it doesn't change that there is an objectively best country, no matter how many morons there are in it that can't appreciate it. I'm not intending to beat on you, just using your posts to demonstrate my point. Good discussion, but it demonstrates my point. The subjective tastes of measurers or observers can not change the objective quality of anything one iota. Stephen |
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In article , Stephen Trapani wrote:
I may have been too general. There is one model that is best at handling pounding forces without breaking up. There is one model that is best at being steady in rough water. There is one model that uses the wind best. There is one model that has the best living accomodations, etc. How do you measure "best living accomodations"? For two? Two plus two children? Two plus two teens? Six? Six plus one dog? There cannot be a "best" because what is "best" for one person is not for another, there is no ruler or scale against which you can measure this. Which is best, the Mona Lisa, or the Night Watch? One is bigger, the other is worth more, whose yardstick are you going to use? Why is one yardstick more valid than the other? It is not possible to be objective over some things. As Jere says, the measurer will have some bias, and this will affect their ability to measure. For further discussion on this topic perhaps you might like to sign up for a philosophy course at your local college. :) Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
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Justin C wrote:
In article , Stephen Trapani wrote: I may have been too general. There is one model that is best at handling pounding forces without breaking up. There is one model that is best at being steady in rough water. There is one model that uses the wind best. There is one model that has the best living accomodations, etc. How do you measure "best living accomodations"? For two? Two plus two children? Two plus two teens? Six? Six plus one dog? There cannot be a "best" because what is "best" for one person is not for another, there is no ruler or scale against which you can measure this. Well, objective truth is not necessarily measurable on a scale. For example, in a test, if a mattress causes the least amount of people to say their back hurts after sleeping on it, that would be the best mattress. But most of the living accomodations factors should be measurable. For example, most room, best functioning head, best functioning galley, etc. While some objective features will be better for one person than another, this doesn't mean that they don't have objective features. Which is best, the Mona Lisa, or the Night Watch? One is bigger, the other is worth more, whose yardstick are you going to use? Why is one yardstick more valid than the other? Some things may not be amenable to objective analysis, you're right. But many things people think aren't, are. For example, which is artistically better, the Mona Lisa or this arrow: -- It is not possible to be objective over some things. As Jere says, the measurer will have some bias, and this will affect their ability to measure. Mistaken measurement may render the wrong conclusion about something's objective properties, but that doesn't mean the objective property doesn't exist. A ten inch high faucet is objectively ten inches high, even if you measure it at ten and a half. For further discussion on this topic perhaps you might like to sign up for a philosophy course at your local college. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_rationalism Stephen |
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On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:28:32 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote: the strongest boat. If it ever matters, nothing else does. Lots of fishing boats carry plywood covers for the windows. Generally you try not to go overboard while you put it up from the outside. Any fisherman will tell you that is sucks to be there, when the waves are taking the windows out. When the Queen Mary had the pilot house, 93 feet above sea level flooded, and nearly capsized, the thirty footers she was running in were no big deal to something that big. Couple of hundred ships disappear without a trace every year. Casady. |
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In article , Stephen Trapani wrote:
[snip] Some things may not be amenable to objective analysis, you're right. But many things people think aren't, are. For example, which is artistically better, the Mona Lisa or this arrow: -- Some would ask whose signature is under the arrow :) Personally, from a minimalist standpoint, I think that arrow has some credibility as art... wanna buy a Banksy? Justin. -- Justin C, by the sea. |
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