Boat Choices
 

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:29:02 -0800, "Steve" wrote:

Of the four boats you have listed, IMFO, the Pacific Seacraft, then the
Tayana.

The only one I've seen regularly up here is the Pacific Seacraft: I've
been aboard both the 34 and the 37 and I must say that I'm impressed,
mainly with a lot of the "little things" most production builders seem
to have forgotten. Also, Practical Sailor had a great article on the
37 last year that made me want to get one.

R.

Boat Choices
 

Bingo!! Cindy & Paul.. That just jogged my feible memory..

It was Nordhaven trawler.. Although I wouldn't have ever remember the
name..

I was up in Mystery Bay WA last summer and there was a beautiful large
trawler there at the dock for a couple days.. I struck up a conversation
with the owner.. He told me that it was Built by Pac. Seacraft and was hull
#1 and that all subsequent hulls were built in Tiawan..

I'm sure this trawler was larger than 40 ft.. Maybe 60 ft and now that I
think more about it, I think it was a limited production boat..

I also remember that it had a big John Deere diesel, bow thruster, etc. Nice
boat..

Sorry if I created some concern with all the devoted Pac. Seacraft owners. I
have always known that they build very fine boats..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

Bingo!! Cindy & Paul.. That just jogged my feible memory..

It was Nordhaven trawler.. Although I wouldn't have ever remember the
name..

I was up in Mystery Bay WA last summer and there was a beautiful large
trawler there at the dock for a couple days.. I struck up a conversation
with the owner.. He told me that it was Built by Pac. Seacraft and was hull
#1 and that all subsequent hulls were built in Tiawan..

I'm sure this trawler was larger than 40 ft.. Maybe 60 ft and now that I
think more about it, I think it was a limited production boat..

I also remember that it had a big John Deere diesel, bow thruster, etc. Nice
boat..

Sorry if I created some concern with all the devoted Pac. Seacraft owners. I
have always known that they build very fine boats..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

I do not know which Taiwanese boats were good and which of the majority were
not. (A friend of mine with serious, close hand experience going back to the
60's can rattle them off between sips of coffee). But I believe that Baba and
Tayana were two of the good ones.


The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.
Much of the 'bronze' is actually red brass. The majority of red metal
castings are outstandlingly porous (gas inclusions). A lot of the
stainless is very poor grade - with lots of vulnerability to fatigue
failure, etc. in stress loaded components.

This is typical to most asian supply metals ----- just like the
imported hardware CRAP that is widescale offered today in the USA . Im
quite sure that if one did a detailed chemical analysis of these
metals, one would find residue of .... cat, floor sweepings, etc.

Many taiwanese boat yards use(d) rigging from 'local' suppliers and
many of the normally forged rigging fittings are actually very
cleverly machined / screwed-together 'contraptions' that are
extremely subject to crevice corrosion failu "Grand Deer" components
as an example.

Boat Choices
 

I do not know which Taiwanese boats were good and which of the majority were
not. (A friend of mine with serious, close hand experience going back to the
60's can rattle them off between sips of coffee). But I believe that Baba and
Tayana were two of the good ones.


The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.
Much of the 'bronze' is actually red brass. The majority of red metal
castings are outstandlingly porous (gas inclusions). A lot of the
stainless is very poor grade - with lots of vulnerability to fatigue
failure, etc. in stress loaded components.

This is typical to most asian supply metals ----- just like the
imported hardware CRAP that is widescale offered today in the USA . Im
quite sure that if one did a detailed chemical analysis of these
metals, one would find residue of .... cat, floor sweepings, etc.

Many taiwanese boat yards use(d) rigging from 'local' suppliers and
many of the normally forged rigging fittings are actually very
cleverly machined / screwed-together 'contraptions' that are
extremely subject to crevice corrosion failu "Grand Deer" components
as an example.

Boat Choices
 

It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Absolutely NO and a little bit yes !

Consider that there is LESS reserve bouyancy in a pinched stern. So,
in a steep following sea the sharp stern will initially penetrate into
the following wave as the wave advances ..... in contrast to the
fat-ass boat that lifts more/faster initially (and by reaction puts her
bow deeper into the trough).

---------------------

Supposedly, more Perry double-ended designs (mostly Tayanas and
Valiants) have circumnavigated than any other 'production' built /
designed sailboat. Thats pretty good 'testimonial' on a stern design
thats based primarily on Bob Perry's asthetic/styling whims. As I
stated on another post, Perry will flatly state that his tumblehome
canoe stern is totally design 'style' ...... His canoe stern designs
in comparsion to other 'double-enders' have more (although limited)
reserve buoyancy incorporated into his 'bustle' at the waterline.
There is a very big difference in the shape of Perry's canoe sterns and
other designers 'double enders'.

IMHO Where a pinched stern has advantage is when forced onto an extreme
heel. Then, the symmetry of the double-ender hull form can heel at
great angles ***without affecting change in weather/lee helm
balance***. Like an inland lake scow, you can sail a Perry design
'double-ender' over onto its beam ends and have very little change in
helm balance. Also note that the max. beam in such Perry designs is
carried quite full for the majority of the hull plan; hence, the less
than 'ideal' windward performance. .... always a trade-off.

Boat Choices
 

It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Absolutely NO and a little bit yes !

Consider that there is LESS reserve bouyancy in a pinched stern. So,
in a steep following sea the sharp stern will initially penetrate into
the following wave as the wave advances ..... in contrast to the
fat-ass boat that lifts more/faster initially (and by reaction puts her
bow deeper into the trough).

---------------------

Supposedly, more Perry double-ended designs (mostly Tayanas and
Valiants) have circumnavigated than any other 'production' built /
designed sailboat. Thats pretty good 'testimonial' on a stern design
thats based primarily on Bob Perry's asthetic/styling whims. As I
stated on another post, Perry will flatly state that his tumblehome
canoe stern is totally design 'style' ...... His canoe stern designs
in comparsion to other 'double-enders' have more (although limited)
reserve buoyancy incorporated into his 'bustle' at the waterline.
There is a very big difference in the shape of Perry's canoe sterns and
other designers 'double enders'.

IMHO Where a pinched stern has advantage is when forced onto an extreme
heel. Then, the symmetry of the double-ender hull form can heel at
great angles ***without affecting change in weather/lee helm
balance***. Like an inland lake scow, you can sail a Perry design
'double-ender' over onto its beam ends and have very little change in
helm balance. Also note that the max. beam in such Perry designs is
carried quite full for the majority of the hull plan; hence, the less
than 'ideal' windward performance. .... always a trade-off.

Boat Choices
 

Yup
Tayana (TaYang) and Ta Shing) were and remain the 'good' ones as Perry
was deeply involved with both.
Many of the others simply stole the designs, didnt know the true intent
nor the implication of the intricate details .... and not much about
boat building, etc. Same thing going on now with semiconductors,
machine tools, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Boat Choices
 

Yup
Tayana (TaYang) and Ta Shing) were and remain the 'good' ones as Perry
was deeply involved with both.
Many of the others simply stole the designs, didnt know the true intent
nor the implication of the intricate details .... and not much about
boat building, etc. Same thing going on now with semiconductors,
machine tools, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Boat Choices
 

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:29:31 -0600, "Wendy"
wrote:


"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
However depending on boat size, having a canoe stern gives up a few
positive
aspects of transom stern boats without necessarily offering compensation.
I
want to suggest (at the risk of drawing ire) that there has never been any
real evidence that these designs are any better or worse than transom
boats
in rough going. We hear things about "parting breaking waves and seas"
and
so on, but I don't believe there is any quantifiable evidence that
double-enders do any better than any other designs. Not that they do any
worse either, but there's a suggestion of superiority out there that is
not
supported by any real evidence.

It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea. I spent a lot of time running these boats
http://www.boatshow.com/POWER/CustomDivePro42.html which are rudderless
jets, and they were horrid in a following sea. But I admit that comparing a
300hp non-displacement hull to a 35-40 sailboat is an apples-and-oranges
thing. My experiences may well be a hindrance here... I am not committed
to a double-ender.

Wendy, you are indeed extrapolating from something unrelated.
Remember, essentially all keel sailboats are doubelenders at and below
the waterline. The visible "canoe stern" loses a great deal of aft
buoyancy in a following sea.

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:29:31 -0600, "Wendy"
wrote:


"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
However depending on boat size, having a canoe stern gives up a few
positive
aspects of transom stern boats without necessarily offering compensation.
I
want to suggest (at the risk of drawing ire) that there has never been any
real evidence that these designs are any better or worse than transom
boats
in rough going. We hear things about "parting breaking waves and seas"
and
so on, but I don't believe there is any quantifiable evidence that
double-enders do any better than any other designs. Not that they do any
worse either, but there's a suggestion of superiority out there that is
not
supported by any real evidence.

It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea. I spent a lot of time running these boats
http://www.boatshow.com/POWER/CustomDivePro42.html which are rudderless
jets, and they were horrid in a following sea. But I admit that comparing a
300hp non-displacement hull to a 35-40 sailboat is an apples-and-oranges
thing. My experiences may well be a hindrance here... I am not committed
to a double-ender.

Wendy, you are indeed extrapolating from something unrelated.
Remember, essentially all keel sailboats are doubelenders at and below
the waterline. The visible "canoe stern" loses a great deal of aft
buoyancy in a following sea.

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy

Boat Choices
 

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy

Boat Choices
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.

I ran into most of these inferior metal problems on my '76 Cheoy Lee.
However between the previous owner and my ownership. We collectively
replaced those items that effected the overall safety of the boat.. It was
12 years old when I got it so some of these problems were already becoming
evident and were picked up in the survey.

I would estimate that I spent about 5% of the purchase price in hardware and
equipment upgrades because of the chinese crap or knock-offs.

The only thing I couldn't really do much about without spending a fortune,
was the teak decks.. All I could do there was try to refill any seams or
plug holes that opened up.

All that said, I really liked the boat, she had an excellent hull layup, was
of a good design (Luder) and was a great boat in open water or single
handing in close quarters.

Bottom line. There only two US production boat I would want to own for
passage making, Shannon and Pacific Seacraft. If I couldn't get into one of
them then I would do like I have done, Build my own..

For everyone else.. If they are careful and get a good surveyor working for
them, they can have a fine boat from Tiawan and then fix everything that the
surveyor finds wrong.. He/She would still have a better boat than a Hunter
or orther US production boats.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
The 'metallurgy' on taiwanese boats leaves very much to be desired.

I ran into most of these inferior metal problems on my '76 Cheoy Lee.
However between the previous owner and my ownership. We collectively
replaced those items that effected the overall safety of the boat.. It was
12 years old when I got it so some of these problems were already becoming
evident and were picked up in the survey.

I would estimate that I spent about 5% of the purchase price in hardware and
equipment upgrades because of the chinese crap or knock-offs.

The only thing I couldn't really do much about without spending a fortune,
was the teak decks.. All I could do there was try to refill any seams or
plug holes that opened up.

All that said, I really liked the boat, she had an excellent hull layup, was
of a good design (Luder) and was a great boat in open water or single
handing in close quarters.

Bottom line. There only two US production boat I would want to own for
passage making, Shannon and Pacific Seacraft. If I couldn't get into one of
them then I would do like I have done, Build my own..

For everyone else.. If they are careful and get a good surveyor working for
them, they can have a fine boat from Tiawan and then fix everything that the
surveyor finds wrong.. He/She would still have a better boat than a Hunter
or orther US production boats.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Boat Choices
 

Steve makes an important point about a surveyor.

However many designs/models are discussed in depth on various 'owners
groups' etc. located all over the web.
It is incredible how many important items are not found by highly
touted and well recommended surveyors. I well realize there is a
definite difference between a simple 'insurance' survey and a full
scale in-depth survey .... but without developing a specific list of
known problem items typical to each design and presenting this list to
a 'surveyor' you can blindly accept major repair potential through
acceptance of an 'insurance' survey. I cant reiterate this too much:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Boat Choices
 

Steve makes an important point about a surveyor.

However many designs/models are discussed in depth on various 'owners
groups' etc. located all over the web.
It is incredible how many important items are not found by highly
touted and well recommended surveyors. I well realize there is a
definite difference between a simple 'insurance' survey and a full
scale in-depth survey .... but without developing a specific list of
known problem items typical to each design and presenting this list to
a 'surveyor' you can blindly accept major repair potential through
acceptance of an 'insurance' survey. I cant reiterate this too much:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:
It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Like the song says, "It ain't necessarily so." There are a couple of
factors that affect how a boat behaves in a following sea, and it also
makes a big difference in how bad a following sea you plan to be in.

An important characteristic in any boat, sail or power, is reserve
bouyancy... in other words, as conditions (rolling, heeling, big waves,
whatever) stick the hull or a part of it deeper into the water, how
strongly does the hull, or that deeper immersed part of the hull, try to
rise? This is one case where more is better. And a boat with a transom
is going to have more enclosed volume, thus more reserve bouyancy, than
a canoe stern.

But keep in mind, most long distance cruisers avoid heavy weather and
spend less than 1% of their sailing time battling storms.

The one thing that I don't like about canoe sterns, and heard the most
complaints about, is that it severely reduces cockpit area (thus
available living space) and it's difficult to mount equipment on them.


Not the be-all and end-all goal. I'm not antisocial :) Being single, I
simply expect there would be times when I would sail alone. I may be best
served by something smaller, but 37' is attractive. The Pacific Seacraft at
32' would be fine, I think.

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

One of the things I'd recommend is to get as much experience as possible
sailing OPBs. You seem to have the credentials to be a highly sought
after crew, it should be difficult to get a berth on some deliveries.
It's no problem at all if you're willing to bring boats back from races!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:
It seems like the design would simply *have* to be easier in a following
sea.

Like the song says, "It ain't necessarily so." There are a couple of
factors that affect how a boat behaves in a following sea, and it also
makes a big difference in how bad a following sea you plan to be in.

An important characteristic in any boat, sail or power, is reserve
bouyancy... in other words, as conditions (rolling, heeling, big waves,
whatever) stick the hull or a part of it deeper into the water, how
strongly does the hull, or that deeper immersed part of the hull, try to
rise? This is one case where more is better. And a boat with a transom
is going to have more enclosed volume, thus more reserve bouyancy, than
a canoe stern.

But keep in mind, most long distance cruisers avoid heavy weather and
spend less than 1% of their sailing time battling storms.

The one thing that I don't like about canoe sterns, and heard the most
complaints about, is that it severely reduces cockpit area (thus
available living space) and it's difficult to mount equipment on them.


Not the be-all and end-all goal. I'm not antisocial :) Being single, I
simply expect there would be times when I would sail alone. I may be best
served by something smaller, but 37' is attractive. The Pacific Seacraft at
32' would be fine, I think.

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

One of the things I'd recommend is to get as much experience as possible
sailing OPBs. You seem to have the credentials to be a highly sought
after crew, it should be difficult to get a berth on some deliveries.
It's no problem at all if you're willing to bring boats back from races!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument? I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and "real"
people.

At least for the time being.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:

Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument? I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and "real"
people.

At least for the time being.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:
Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Armond Perretta wrote:
Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument?

Well (he said abashed, scuffing one toe modestly) it *is* an issue, but
what I should have said... if I were in the mood to be more long
winded... that size of vessel need not be an absolute limiting factor.

... I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and "real"
people.

At least for the time being.

Agreed, with the caveat that skill is the biggest limiting factor and
one can learn, can't one? Money is a whole nother issue, and let me
remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:
Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Armond Perretta wrote:
Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument?

Well (he said abashed, scuffing one toe modestly) it *is* an issue, but
what I should have said... if I were in the mood to be more long
winded... that size of vessel need not be an absolute limiting factor.

... I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and "real"
people.

At least for the time being.

Agreed, with the caveat that skill is the biggest limiting factor and
one can learn, can't one? Money is a whole nother issue, and let me
remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:

let me remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

You are permitted, since at this time my wife is not reading this group.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Boat Choices
 

DSK wrote:

let me remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

You are permitted, since at this time my wife is not reading this group.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Boat Choices
 

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:05:45 -0500, DSK wrote:


Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

For an extreme case, Alain Colas sailed a 240-foot four-masted
schooner in the 1976 Transatlantic race. It had eight self-tacking
sails, like a separate masthead sloop rig on each mast. All had a
semicircular traveler track that went right to the gunwale.

All the controls led back to a battery of self-tailing winches at
waist height behind a bulwark surrounding the pilot house. The middle
winch of each set of three was the sheet; the other two located the
traveler.

The Bicentennial celebration that year included a tall ships parade up
the North River (Hudson). All participants motored from the start
except Colas. He tacked into a northerly, slicing back and forth
through the massive fleet of spectators past the bleachers at Barttery
Park City.

A black squall line became just visible at the G Washington Bridge.
Colas managed to get all the sails down before it reached him. THere
were bikini-clad lovelies decorating the deck, but they didn't assist.
Colas did it all as far as I could see.

I went aboard the next day to see the hardware.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:05:45 -0500, DSK wrote:


Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding (or shorthanding), people
have singlehanded surprisingly large boats... over a hundred feet LOA.
Equipment is a big issue though; and so is skill & forethought. In
former times, big sailing cargo were sailed by as few men as could be
done with, to keep crew expense down. You can read accounts of three
masted schooners being sailed by two men & a dog ;)

For an extreme case, Alain Colas sailed a 240-foot four-masted
schooner in the 1976 Transatlantic race. It had eight self-tacking
sails, like a separate masthead sloop rig on each mast. All had a
semicircular traveler track that went right to the gunwale.

All the controls led back to a battery of self-tailing winches at
waist height behind a bulwark surrounding the pilot house. The middle
winch of each set of three was the sheet; the other two located the
traveler.

The Bicentennial celebration that year included a tall ships parade up
the North River (Hudson). All participants motored from the start
except Colas. He tacked into a northerly, slicing back and forth
through the massive fleet of spectators past the bleachers at Barttery
Park City.

A black squall line became just visible at the G Washington Bridge.
Colas managed to get all the sails down before it reached him. THere
were bikini-clad lovelies decorating the deck, but they didn't assist.
Colas did it all as far as I could see.

I went aboard the next day to see the hardware.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

In article ,
"Wendy" wrote:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy



Don't necessarily try for the ultimate boat. I haven't heard of anyone
getting it right the first time, though Skip and Lydia might ;-) More
often, too much boat stays in the slip.

Go for one that will will suit an honest assessment of what you're
likely to do in the the near future, say 5 or so years. If that includes
crossing the pond, so be it, but if not, there are a lot of good, less
expensive boats that could serve you better.

For instance, a boat like our Xan is comfortable for 2, certainly up to
doing the eastern Caribbean, big enough to be stable and easily
single-handed, small enough that going out for a couple of hours is a
meaningful option, tough enough to take beginner mistakes, and "cheap"
to buy, upgrade and maintain. In the meantime, the extra $60-70k can
appreciate, make a pretty good cruising kitty or NOT be owed to the bank.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Boat Choices
 

In article ,
"Wendy" wrote:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
...

I suggest that buying a long-distance cruiser is premature. Until,
that is, you have tried different kinds of boats to find out what you
enjoy sailing.

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.

Wendy



Don't necessarily try for the ultimate boat. I haven't heard of anyone
getting it right the first time, though Skip and Lydia might ;-) More
often, too much boat stays in the slip.

Go for one that will will suit an honest assessment of what you're
likely to do in the the near future, say 5 or so years. If that includes
crossing the pond, so be it, but if not, there are a lot of good, less
expensive boats that could serve you better.

For instance, a boat like our Xan is comfortable for 2, certainly up to
doing the eastern Caribbean, big enough to be stable and easily
single-handed, small enough that going out for a couple of hours is a
meaningful option, tough enough to take beginner mistakes, and "cheap"
to buy, upgrade and maintain. In the meantime, the extra $60-70k can
appreciate, make a pretty good cruising kitty or NOT be owed to the bank.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Boat Choices
 

Rich Hampel wrote in message news:300120041809349757%
Definitely dont bother with a "pullman" interior if you're interested
in blue water.

Can you explain why that is for this neophyte?

Boat Choices
 

Rich Hampel wrote in message news:300120041809349757%
Definitely dont bother with a "pullman" interior if you're interested
in blue water.

Can you explain why that is for this neophyte?

Boat Choices
 

Wendy, please ignore any and all DSK mutters.

DSK wrote:
Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Armond Perretta wrote:
Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument?

Well (he said abashed, scuffing one toe modestly) it *is* an issue, but
what I should have said... if I were in the mood to be more long
winded... that size of vessel need not be an absolute limiting factor.

... I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and
"real"
people.

At least for the time being.

Agreed, with the caveat that skill is the biggest limiting factor and
one can learn, can't one? Money is a whole nother issue, and let me
remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

Wendy, please ignore any and all DSK mutters.

DSK wrote:
Size isn't really an issue for singlehanding ...

Armond Perretta wrote:
Yes it is, Doug.

There! Howizzat fer a convincin' argument?

Well (he said abashed, scuffing one toe modestly) it *is* an issue, but
what I should have said... if I were in the mood to be more long
winded... that size of vessel need not be an absolute limiting factor.

... I will omit the discussion about
hydraulic winches and furlers, athletic ability, age, pocketbook, and
"real"
people.

At least for the time being.

Agreed, with the caveat that skill is the biggest limiting factor and
one can learn, can't one? Money is a whole nother issue, and let me
remind you how much can be spent on even smaller vessels...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Boat Choices
 

bull****. I was there. not a single boat sailed that day after mid morning.
NY harbor had more then 40,000 boats in it and there was zero point zero room
for sailing. In fact, the Staten Island ferry stopped running several hours
early due to the thick congestion on the harbor.

The Bicentennial celebration that year included a tall ships parade up
the North River (Hudson). All participants motored from the start
except Colas. He tacked into a northerly, slicing back and forth
through the massive fleet of spectators past the bleachers at Barttery
Park City.

A black squall line became just visible at the G Washington Bridge.
Colas managed to get all the sails down before it reached him. THere
were bikini-clad lovelies decorating the deck, but they didn't assist.
Colas did it all as far as I could see.

I went aboard the next day to see the hardware.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

bull****. I was there. not a single boat sailed that day after mid morning.
NY harbor had more then 40,000 boats in it and there was zero point zero room
for sailing. In fact, the Staten Island ferry stopped running several hours
early due to the thick congestion on the harbor.

The Bicentennial celebration that year included a tall ships parade up
the North River (Hudson). All participants motored from the start
except Colas. He tacked into a northerly, slicing back and forth
through the massive fleet of spectators past the bleachers at Barttery
Park City.

A black squall line became just visible at the G Washington Bridge.
Colas managed to get all the sails down before it reached him. THere
were bikini-clad lovelies decorating the deck, but they didn't assist.
Colas did it all as far as I could see.

I went aboard the next day to see the hardware.


Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.


Wendy,

A lot of the boats you are interested in are available for
charter if you hunt around to find them. The Pacific Northwest
would be a good place to look. Chartering will give you a
perspective that simply looking (or even day sailing) will never
give you. A feature that seems wonderful at first may be a deal
breaker after you try it out.

Also, you should be aware that some of the boats you are
considering have a maintenance premimum attached to them because
of their brightwork and the wood used in their construction. For
example, the teak decks on the Panda were very well made and are
the best non-skid in the world, but you will have to care for
them. Likewise, britework can be a joy or a curse depending on
your perspective and your approach to it.

Cindy



--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net

Boat Choices
 

Wendy wrote:

I think there is a lot of merit in this observation, Rodney. I'm probably
starting from the "what I would like to have" point rather than the "what
would best suit me at this time" point. That said, I've loads of time to
figure all of this out. I'll get more involved in the local sailing
community, which will, I am sure, help and affect my purchasing decision a
lot. I'm off today to look at some boats, and that may well be an
eye-opening experience.


Wendy,

A lot of the boats you are interested in are available for
charter if you hunt around to find them. The Pacific Northwest
would be a good place to look. Chartering will give you a
perspective that simply looking (or even day sailing) will never
give you. A feature that seems wonderful at first may be a deal
breaker after you try it out.

Also, you should be aware that some of the boats you are
considering have a maintenance premimum attached to them because
of their brightwork and the wood used in their construction. For
example, the teak decks on the Panda were very well made and are
the best non-skid in the world, but you will have to care for
them. Likewise, britework can be a joy or a curse depending on
your perspective and your approach to it.

Cindy



--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net

Boat Choices
 

Rich Hampel wrote:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Yes!!! The archives are especially useful. After reading the 20th
"my decks are rotten and need to be replaced" posting, you may
begin to see an indication that this may not be the boat for you!

Cindy


--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net

Boat Choices
 

Rich Hampel wrote:
once you decide on a certain design, have preliminarily chosen 'the'
boat - go to the owners groups and carefully extract identified
'problems' of the design and be sure to have the surveyor pay special
attention to these items.

Yes!!! The archives are especially useful. After reading the 20th
"my decks are rotten and need to be replaced" posting, you may
begin to see an indication that this may not be the boat for you!

Cindy


--
the return email is a spam trap
send legit emails to cindy_at_ballreich_dot_net