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british seagull info request
I know some of you cruisers are using a british seagull engine for
your dingy. I just purchased one, in good running condition, but has no paperwork. Where can I download manuals, info, etc? I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! thanks Joe |
british seagull info request
no onecares wrote:
I know some of you cruisers are using a british seagull engine for your dingy. I just purchased one, in good running condition, but has no paperwork. Where can I download manuals, info, etc? I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! thanks Joe The company that ended up with the British Seagull spares inventory and rights and continues to support the engines has the copyright to the user and service manuals. (Selva ended up with the rights to produce Seagull branded engines but have nothing to do with supporting the original engines.) The consensus on the various forums is that although the OEM parts supplier is rather expensive, ripping off their copyright is a *BAD* *THING* as no-one wants them to decide supporting Seagulls is uneconomic and dispose of the remaining inventory. The original works docs were in 'dead tree' format so there were no conveniant files for employees or dealers to leak. Generally anyone trying to trade in ripped off scanned manuals gets banned from the forums so DONT unless you dont want to have access to one of the friendliest and most helpfull user communities you will ever meet. The Owners Handbook is *real* simple and any of the forums or supplier sites will give you a brief list of the essential do's and dont's, so you can easily do without it. The Service Manual is actually a collection of service bullitins and Seagull used to send the same bullitin individually if one ordered a particular service kit. Most suppliers would still be happy to send a copy of the carburettor diagram if you were ordering carb parts etc. though you might have to ask. The Owners Spares Book is the exploded diagrams and parts list but the forums will help you get part numbers given a description and the better suppliers will send you the right parts as long as you give them the engine number so one can manage without that as well. The Retail Price List is just good for giving you sticker shock, e.g. eight years ago, the GBX10035 BEVEL PINION (12 Teeth) was £47.17 and it hasn't got any cheaper. I shudder to think what that would be now in dollars and you'd need to replace it as a set with the Crown Gear as well. Be very carefull to use the correct spec gearbox oil and check it often! The best seagull forums are at http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/ Goto the 'Guest Pages'. If you have any servicing to do or operational questions - just ask over there. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: 'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy. |
british seagull info request
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:49:29 -0400, no onecares
wrote: I know some of you cruisers are using a british seagull engine for your dingy. I just purchased one, in good running condition, but has no paperwork. Where can I download manuals, info, etc? I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! thanks Joe Google "seagull". There are several sites providing advice and parts. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
british seagull info request
"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message ... no onecares wrote: I know some of you cruisers are using a british seagull engine for your dingy. I just purchased one, in good running condition, but has no paperwork. Where can I download manuals, info, etc? I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! thanks Joe The company that ended up with the British Seagull spares inventory and rights and continues to support the engines has the copyright to the user and service manuals. (Selva ended up with the rights to produce Seagull branded engines but have nothing to do with supporting the original engines.) The consensus on the various forums is that although the OEM parts supplier is rather expensive, ripping off their copyright is a *BAD* *THING* as no-one wants them to decide supporting Seagulls is uneconomic and dispose of the remaining inventory. The original works docs were in 'dead tree' format so there were no conveniant files for employees or dealers to leak. Generally anyone trying to trade in ripped off scanned manuals gets banned from the forums so DONT unless you dont want to have access to one of the friendliest and most helpfull user communities you will ever meet. The Owners Handbook is *real* simple and any of the forums or supplier sites will give you a brief list of the essential do's and dont's, so you can easily do without it. The Service Manual is actually a collection of service bullitins and Seagull used to send the same bullitin individually if one ordered a particular service kit. Most suppliers would still be happy to send a copy of the carburettor diagram if you were ordering carb parts etc. though you might have to ask. The Owners Spares Book is the exploded diagrams and parts list but the forums will help you get part numbers given a description and the better suppliers will send you the right parts as long as you give them the engine number so one can manage without that as well. The Retail Price List is just good for giving you sticker shock, e.g. eight years ago, the GBX10035 BEVEL PINION (12 Teeth) was £47.17 and it hasn't got any cheaper. I shudder to think what that would be now in dollars and you'd need to replace it as a set with the Crown Gear as well. Be very carefull to use the correct spec gearbox oil and check it often! The best seagull forums are at http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/ Goto the 'Guest Pages'. If you have any servicing to do or operational questions - just ask over there. That is all good stuff but you hardly need the instruction book for these simple motors. I have had long experience with them and my Century Plus is 50 years old and still good for another 50 as they are very much over-engineered by modern standards and will accept a lot of abuse and still run. The older Seagulls, 40 and 100 series at least, have one great advantage over modern engines in that the water pump impeller is not made of rubber so you can clamp them to a bench and run them up dry for a minute or so ashore and then you know they will start without hassle when you put them on your boat. Here is all you really need to know:- -Use basic 2-stroke oil, not the high tech stuff they use in modern chainsaws etc. Seagull recommend a 10:1 mix but if you use this on an engine that is well run in you will have trouble with plug oiling and lose even more of the oil into the environment. I run mine on 15:1 and it is OK. -Oil in the gearbox must be SAE 140 or thicker, as long as it will still be pourable (i.e. not a grease). The gearbox has no oil seal and the thick oil leaks only very slowly through the clearances. The instruction book says "a certain amount of water in the box doesn't matter" and you will find that the oil becomes a yellowish emulsion of oil and water. I have never seen a Seagull where this did not happen and the loadings are so low they run happily on it. I have never known one that needed new gears from wear .so the cost of new gears is not a problem. -Spark plugs may be a problem as 18mm ones are hard to find. I have a little hoard of old ones as they do have the advantage that they can be dismantled for thorough cleaning so last a very long time. The recommended plug is Lodge C1 (H1 for hard service) or Champion 8com. There may be some modern equivalents made for vintage engines but I have no information on this. Recommended gap .012/.015" -You need to carry a plug spanner, a screwdriver and,if you have the old Villiers carburetter, a precision spanner ('King Dick' type) for unscrewing the jet if it gets blocked. With these three tools and a spare plug you can be sure of getting the motor going again_in the boat_ in the unlikely event that it stops. HTH |
british seagull info request
Edgar wrote:
"Ian Malcolm" wrote: The best seagull forums are at http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/ Goto the 'Guest Pages'. If you have any servicing to do or operational questions - just ask over there. That is all good stuff but you hardly need the instruction book for these simple motors. I have had long experience with them and my Century Plus is 50 years old and still good for another 50 as they are very much over-engineered by modern standards and will accept a lot of abuse and still run. The older Seagulls, 40 and 100 series at least, have one great advantage over modern engines in that the water pump impeller is not made of rubber so you can clamp them to a bench and run them up dry for a minute or so ashore and then you know they will start without hassle when you put them on your boat. Non contact centrifugal impeller. If you are tank tesing they wont pump water unless you take the prop off. DONT idle slower than it will pump *some* water at. Here is all you really need to know:- -Use basic 2-stroke oil, not the high tech stuff they use in modern chainsaws etc. ANY TCW I II OR III 2 stroke oil even if its fancy stuff or if you have nothing better SAE30 single grade non-synthetic non-detergent engine oil. As Edgar said, NOT the oil for air cooled engines. Seagull recommend a 10:1 mix but if you use this on an engine that is well run in you will have trouble with plug oiling and lose even more of the oil into the environment. Problem is the other way round, early seagulls and very worn ones *NEED* 10:1 to seel the crankcase bearings and get enough compression. I run mine on 15:1 and it is OK. *most* seagulls can be converted/may allready have been converted to 25:1 for less smoke but possibly more rust ;-(. *most* engines can be converted to 16:1 just by carb adjustments. Anyrthing that says 25:1 on the tank, use 25:1. All others, expect to start off with 10:1 then with the assistance of the forums, get it down to a reasonable mix. WARNING altering the oil ratio affects the mixture and can cause the engine to run lean. DONT run a seagull lean with a heavy load -Oil in the gearbox must be SAE 140 or thicker, as long as it will still be pourable (i.e. not a grease). The gearbox has no oil seal and the thick oil leaks only very slowly through the clearances. There is an oil 'seal' on the prop shaft thats just a rubber washer in a recess in the gearbox casting behind the brass bush pinned to the propshaft behind the prop. Its mostly just to keep grit out. If its too badly chewed up, the engine ****es oil. If its replaced with a flat face V seal running against the face of the rear shaft bearing the gearbox will hold oil to the correct level with very little contamination for several seasons. Later seagulls have proper oil seals and use streight SAE90. If the seals are damaged substitute SAE140. Dont use multigrade. The SAE140 oil is most usually used in old tractors. The instruction book says "a certain amount of water in the box doesn't matter" and you will find that the oil becomes a yellowish emulsion of oil and water. I have never seen a Seagull where this did not happen and the loadings are so low they run happily on it. I have never known one that needed new gears from wear .so the cost of new gears is not a problem. Geears only die due to corrosion, If too much oil has escaped, the emulsion breaks down and the gears get exposed to raw seawater. They then rapidly rust and the housing also gets badly corroded. Also if the engine is stored for a long time, you can have problems (easily avoided by running the engine for 1 minute every month or two to keep the oil and water mixed) or if some idiot has filled the box with grease. All it takes is unscrew the oil plug a couple times a season with the prop downwards and then lift the engine towards vertical to check the oil is up to the minimum level. Put the oil plug back before more than a trace escapes. The gearbox fill level is level with the bottom side of the filler hole with the engine vertical. Slight overfilling doesnt hurt but Segull warn aganst overfilling. -Spark plugs may be a problem as 18mm ones are hard to find. I have a little hoard of old ones as they do have the advantage that they can be dismantled for thorough cleaning so last a very long time. The recommended plug is Lodge C1 (H1 for hard service) or Champion 8com. There may be some modern equivalents made for vintage engines but I have no information on this. the Champion 8COM is long discontinued and are rare and valuable if in good condition. Champion D16 is the (more) modern equivalent or NGK A6 Recommended gap .012/.015" The book says .020" and if the ignition system is in good contition and the flywheel magnets are good, there should be no need to reduce this. Difficult to start engines *may* respond well to reducing the gap to the range stated by Edgar -You need to carry a plug spanner, a screwdriver and,if you have the old Villiers carburetter, a precision spanner ('King Dick' type) for unscrewing the jet if it gets blocked. With these three tools and a spare plug you can be sure of getting the motor going again_in the boat_ in the unlikely event that it stops. Add a small adjustable spanner to tighten loose nuts, and a spare drive spring and split pin and you can get it going as long as nothing critical has dropped off and sunk as happened to me 18 months ago :-( I ended up with a Red Bull can instead of a float chamber (the float floated so I recovered that) to get me back to my mooring!. A small can of WD40 and some paper towels in a ziplok bag are also worth carrying. Happy Seagulling. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: 'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy. |
british seagull info request
..
Non contact centrifugal impeller. If you are tank tesing they wont pump water unless you take the prop off. I don't understand this. Can you explain a little more? Thanks Gordon |
british seagull info request
Gordon wrote:
.. Non contact centrifugal impeller. If you are tank tesing they wont pump water unless you take the prop off. I don't understand this. Can you explain a little more? Thanks Gordon Yeah, sure, no problem. A normal raw water pump uses a vaned rubber impeller in an assymetric chamber. The base of the chamber and the cover plate need to be close fitting and the pump works by compressing the vanes moving back fromn the outlet to the inlet nearly flat so that far more water (in the gap between the vanes) is moved from inlet to outlet as the rotor turns than can get back on the side of the chamber with the bump. The pump has rubber rubbing on metal at a couple of thousand RPM. The only thing that stops it destroying itself instantly is the plentiful supply of cold clean water its pumping which cools and lubricates it. Remove the water or add a little sand and it will chew itself to bits faster than you can yell 'STOP'. This is a positive displacement pump, i.e. its output is proportional to its speed (as long as it isnt overloaded) and it pumps from a very low speed. A seagull does things rather differently. The water pump chamber is cylindrical and cincentric on the drive shaft. In the chamber is a hard four vaned rotor running on the shaft with a top plate around the shaft of about 2/3 the rotor diameter. Water enters around the shaft in the middle of the rotor at the bottom and is spun to the outside of the pump chamber where it exits upwards via the gap between the rotor top plate and the chamber wall. The closest the rotor ever comes to any stationary part is about 1/16" so as far as the pump is concerned it can run dry all day with no damage though the powerhead will get pretty unhappy after a minute or two with no cooling! It also isnt much bothered by a bit of sand or sediment as long as the liquid its pumping is fairly runny, its happy. Where the trouble starts is it cant lift the water enough to get it to the powerhead at low revs and also it cant pump effectively if it gets a big air bubble in the chamber so the top of the chamber *must* be totally below the water line even when moveing. If you are testing the engine in a small tank, it stirs in too many bubbles so the pump doesnt work worth a damm and the engine may overheat. Take the prop off, no stirring, no bubbles and you can test it all day with no problems. You want to test the engine under load, moor alongside with your stern pointed towards open water please, rig a strong bow spring to keep you there and test the engine on the boat. One can keeep that up for as long as people near by are willing to put up with the noise. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: 'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy. |
british seagull info request
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:28:31 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote: you will have trouble with plug oiling A bandaid is platinum point plugs. Those fine wires can run very hot, and cool fast enough to avoid preignition, and they don't burn up. The auto makers recomment you change them every 100k miles. Casady |
british seagull info request
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:01:43 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! Depends on how you feel about stealing. And it would be pretty easy to get caught. Casady |
british seagull info request
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:28:31 +0100, "Edgar" wrote: you will have trouble with plug oiling A bandaid is platinum point plugs. Those fine wires can run very hot, and cool fast enough to avoid preignition, and they don't burn up. The auto makers recomment you change them every 100k miles. But can you get them for a motor that requires 18mm plugs? |
british seagull info request
On Dec 16, 5:49 am, no onecares wrote:
I know some of you cruisers are using a british seagull engine for your dingy. I just purchased one, in good running condition, but has no paperwork. Where can I download manuals, info, etc? I know I can buy them, but I am sure there are some groups like with the A4 that share them and talk up a storm! thanks Joe I rebuilt an old segull once. My big mistake was neglecting the ignition system. And the coil was bad making it real hard to start. I luckly found a guy way back with a spare. If you were a coil winding type of shop you just might get one rebuilt. It was super easy to start with the new coil. It also had a leaky carburater. Gas would leak out the little hole on the side. Implying a bad float or float needle valve. The float was perfect, the valve was not. I was real upset at the cost of a new carburator so i got mad and got a hammer and peened the needle into the seat with a tap of a small hammer. Believe it of not, the floated needle then worked perfectly with no overfloaws. A light hammer job:) I could not believe it. It saved half the cost of a new outboard. Parts are hell. The little impeller housing for the water pump was all corroaded due to heavy salt water uasge. Dismantling thelower unit revealed a perfect hard plastic impeller that never makes contact with the housing sides by design. It is a durable plastic likely to not be ever an issue unless age makes it crack. Although salt water can clog all water passages eventually after a season of hard usage. The leaky gear box shaft seal is an issue. Adding oil every day stinks. You just have to live with the issue and add or check the oil every other day after heavy usage. I neglected the issue and burned out the upper pinion gear. Parts were findable twenty years ago. Now a days a new set, just might mean a new outboard would be a better choice. It should be considered a style of outboarding I believe. Seagulling arround and all. A lightweight four horse power johnson is a good alternative. |
british seagull info request
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:20:11 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote: "Richard Casady" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:28:31 +0100, "Edgar" wrote: you will have trouble with plug oiling A bandaid is platinum point plugs. Those fine wires can run very hot, and cool fast enough to avoid preignition, and they don't burn up. The auto makers recomment you change them every 100k miles. But can you get them for a motor that requires 18mm plugs? Good question. Wouldn't be that hard to bore out the hole a bit, to the closest available larger size. Certainly plenty of metal around the existing hole. I mean it isnt' a hemi with the biggest possible valves. Two strokes are mostly flatheads. Casady |
british seagull info request
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:52:22 -0800 (PST), Douglas Eagleson
wrote: It should be considered a style of outboarding I believe. Seagulling arround and all. A lightweight four horse power johnson is a good alternative. I understand parts are ridiculously expensive on those too. Casady |
british seagull info request
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british seagull info request
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:06:38 GMT, Brian Whatcott
wrote: Uh? 14 mm plugs are the usual platinum offering, I believe. An adaptor might do the job. I didn't know that. I do know they are great, are pretty much immune to fouling and last at least 100 000 miles, which i just as well,to since it takes two hours on my current ride. My 75 Volvo had a lot under the hood, but plugs took five minutes. It always had room for the tools and a hand, and you never had to take stuff off to get at other stuff. The good old days were when you could work on the motor. Stuff like brakes haven't changed and the shade tree mechanics can still work on them. Casady |
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