|
Ping Larry
Larry,
Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. Maybe some comments regarding purchase costs, operating, etc. I'm thinking of trying one but they seem pretty scarce over here and I'd hate to order one only to discover that they aren't what I imagined. I am presently rebuilding a power boat and will eventually need auxiliary power and the choice is between a permanently mounted diesel unit and (maybe) the Honda. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. If you're talking about the EU2000i, I've had one for two seasons. They also make a 1000 and 3000, but the 2000 is a good compromise of weight and power. They indeed have an inverter, which means the motor is variable speed. At low load (or idle) it is very quiet and fuel efficient. I was, however, disappointed in the noise level when run a full power. From 20 yards behind my boat, (cramped mooring field distance) it is much loader than my Yanmar 2GM's, which means there are places I can't use it daily without being anti-social. On the other hand, when the door on my cat is closed and the genset exhaust pointed aft over the stern, it is inaudible down below, so I can use it freely in more isolated anchorages. The other disappointment is that it has trouble running my 100 Amp battery charger. I would have thought 2 kW was enough, but it frequently trips its breaker. I can limit the power use by the charger so it runs happily charging at about 75 Amps - not bad, but it means an extra 20 minutes or so to get the batteries up to the 80% point. Other owners with similar chargers have reported getting 84 Amps, so I think there's some variance, or perhaps ambient temp effects. Its also possible to couple two of them for double power, so some owners carry two. (Most of my sister ships have 10 hp outboards instead of diesels so a genset is generally desired for cruising, and this is the one they prefer.) Maintenance is minimal, and it always starts on the first or second pull. The 2kW model is small and light enough to fit in a cockpit locker and be pulled out when needed. Although I used it a number of times this summer I don't put on a lot of hours so I expect to get many trouble free years of service. Its also handy at the house for fall and winter storms that can pull down power lines, or as a portable power source. Although it isn't everything I had hoped for, I'm still quite happy with it. |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:55:03 -0500, jeff wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote: Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. If you're talking about the EU2000i, I've had one for two seasons. They also make a 1000 and 3000, but the 2000 is a good compromise of weight and power. They indeed have an inverter, which means the motor is variable speed. At low load (or idle) it is very quiet and fuel efficient. I was, however, disappointed in the noise level when run a full power. From 20 yards behind my boat, (cramped mooring field distance) it is much loader than my Yanmar 2GM's, which means there are places I can't use it daily without being anti-social. On the other hand, when the door on my cat is closed and the genset exhaust pointed aft over the stern, it is inaudible down below, so I can use it freely in more isolated anchorages. The other disappointment is that it has trouble running my 100 Amp battery charger. I would have thought 2 kW was enough, but it frequently trips its breaker. I can limit the power use by the charger so it runs happily charging at about 75 Amps - not bad, but it means an extra 20 minutes or so to get the batteries up to the 80% point. Other owners with similar chargers have reported getting 84 Amps, so I think there's some variance, or perhaps ambient temp effects. Its also possible to couple two of them for double power, so some owners carry two. (Most of my sister ships have 10 hp outboards instead of diesels so a genset is generally desired for cruising, and this is the one they prefer.) Maintenance is minimal, and it always starts on the first or second pull. The 2kW model is small and light enough to fit in a cockpit locker and be pulled out when needed. Although I used it a number of times this summer I don't put on a lot of hours so I expect to get many trouble free years of service. Its also handy at the house for fall and winter storms that can pull down power lines, or as a portable power source. Although it isn't everything I had hoped for, I'm still quite happy with it. Thanks for the info. I had heard that the Hondas were a bit loud at high power and had thought to rebuild the exhaust system to incorporate a larger exhaust pipe and more muffling so, hopefully, it would run quieter although only rarely do I anchor in crowded anchorages. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... Thanks for the info. I had heard that the Hondas were a bit loud at high power and had thought to rebuild the exhaust system to incorporate a larger exhaust pipe and more muffling so, hopefully, it would run quieter although only rarely do I anchor in crowded anchorages. What's the matter, Pop? Takes you too long to untie all those dock lines and unplug the shore power cords and disconnect the water hoses and telephone and cable TV? Not to mention getting all the laundry off the lifelines and stowing all the junk that's lying all over every shelf and counter in the accommodation? And scraping all the barnacles off the propeller and getting the windlass working so you can get underway so you CAN anchor? Wilbur Hubbard |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:55:03 -0500, jeff wrote:
They indeed have an inverter, which means the motor is variable speed. At low load (or idle) it is very quiet and fuel efficient. I was, however, disappointed in the noise level when run a full power. From 20 yards behind my boat, (cramped mooring field distance) it is much loader than my Yanmar 2GM's, which means there are places I can't use it daily without being anti-social. I've been moored near a couple of "on deck" Hondas and they are way too loud. You could generate at least 2KW of AC by putting a high output alternator on each Yanmar and feeding an inverter through battery combiners. Here's what I'm using: http://www.fleetsource.com/product_p/110-555jho.htm http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|606044&id=605590 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|985|316473&id=88467 |
Ping Larry
On Nov 20, 2:13 am, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
Larry, Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. Maybe some comments regarding purchase costs, operating, etc. I'm thinking of trying one but they seem pretty scarce over here and I'd hate to order one only to discover that they aren't what I imagined. I am presently rebuilding a power boat and will eventually need auxiliary power and the choice is between a permanently mounted diesel unit and (maybe) the Honda. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) With the exception of Wilbur, whose post didn't make sense to me, all the points made are valid. I'm a summer liveaboard, on a mooring, in New England. My genset and thruster operate hydraulically off the main. And, I have 400 watts (peak) of Siemens solar panels mounted on the wheelhouse to charge batteries which runs my reefer. All is well except for the days lacking enough sun. Instead of running the main to charge my Rolls Surrette batteries with a 190 amp alternator, I chose the Honda 2KW unit to run up on roof for those occasions. My 80 amp charger makes the Honda work hard and loud. Thankfully, it quiets down after the initial bulk charge. I also use it for running other appliances like coffee maker, nuker, toaster oven. One neat capability is that a pair of them can run in parallel with a proprietary jumper cable, thus providing 4KW. I've owned mine for 3 years, run it often, and have yet to replace the plug. I also use synthetic oil, though oil changes are a bit cumbersome. On vacation, used daily, I consumed less than 5 gal./ week. All things being equal, for about $1K USD, I think the Honda offers a great value proposition. Even if it doesn't work out for your application, it's a great backup unit. The only people who don't like them are those who have to listen to them when they're working hard. Regards, Capt. John |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Larry, Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. I have two, the little EU1000i 1KW portable and the more powerful EU3000is mounted on the back door of my service stepvan to power my electronics shop and 2 8000 Btu air conditioners. I had the 1KW first, but got a steal on the 3KW which is a MUCH better genset, much quieter at only 1200 RPM up to about 1800 watts load. You are only partly correct on the technology. The "alternator" is a series of multiphase, high frequency coils that look just like the stator in an outboard motor inside the flywheel of a, in the case of the 3KW, 6.5HP 4-stroke OHC engine. Very high frequency alternators require little "core" and, excited by rare earth magnets embedded into the flywheel, itself, produce tremendous high frequency power in a tiny, light package. The output varies all over the place with load and engine speed, which, in economy mode, is controlled by the inverter's computer to save fuel and reduce noise under lighter loads when full power isn't needed. Turn off economode and the engine runs at 2400 RPM under all loads. The 400VAC, multiphase output is fed to a set of high voltage rectifiers and filter caps where it's THEN turned into high voltage DC, reducing current losses and using small conductors, not massive battery cables. The HVDC from there is fed to a computer-controlled, electronic inverter that makes EXACTLY 60HZ (50 Hz for the rest of the planet) at EXACTLY 115VAC (230 VAC outside the backwards USA) so smooth and exact it's rated to operate computers. No matter what the engine speed is, or load up to rated output, the output of these puppies is rock solid. Not having a direct-drive low frequency monster alternator means the engine doesn't set the frequency of the AC output....Efficiency goes way up! 3 gallons of petrol will power the two AC units and my shop's power requirements for over 11 hours! The 3KW has a 3.2 gallon tank inside its quiet, insulated cabinet. The little genset runs about 3-4 hours at 500-600 watts on its little 4 litre plastic tankage before refilling it. Before you buy one of the little ones, be informed they run MUCH higher RPM to produce 1 or 2 KW from a really tiny flywheel alternator on their little 4-stroke engines. Even in Economy Mode, the little genset runs around 2200 to 4800 RPM, making a much more noticable, higher frequency, audio noise...still quite quiet but much more noticable. Of course, being gas engines, their exhaust is very toxic to humans sleeping in a hull, as always. The exhaust of the EU3000is (and the new EU6500is I drool over at Northern Tool near home) is dumped into the cooling air INSIDE the cabinet. There's no easy way to plumb its exhaust gas alone anywhere. The little gensets like my EU1000i has a tiny 1/2" exhaust pipe sticking out of the cabinet! I welded a 3/4" pipe nipple over the little 1/2" metal pipe exposed. To the threaded end of the pipe nipple, I put a 90 degree elbow that terminates in a flared copper tubing male fitting. I can now screw onto this flange a length of flexible stainless steel gas pipe used to connect natural gas to a fireplace burner. I made a loop out of the gas tubing to act as a heat exchanger, then ran the open end of the tubing through a hole the US Air Force left in the truck when they owned it in the deck at the rear of the truck. I work, not sleep, in the truck so the noise of running the tiny 1KW genset is quite tolerable....when compared to freezing to death in January trying to fix electronics when the OAT is -5C and 0C inside the truck. This recovers 100% of the heat coming off the little genset and a little 110VAC fan, running off the genset, of course, blows the heat recovered forward into the shop making it toasty warm for almost no fuel used....with nearly a kilowatt of electric power to run the shop to boot! The exhaust blows out the bottom and you can hold your hand into the gas stream. It's barely warm after I suck the heat out of it. The little genset powers the shop in winter...the big genset powers the shop when air conditioning is desirable. They are very convenient, both of them, but I wouldn't want to move the EU3000i 3KW genset as it's quite heavy with electric start, its AGM starting battery (a little motorcycle battery) and all. If it weren't permanently mounted on a 2000 pound angle bracket set, I'd have wheels under it. The EU6500is is even larger, of course, and very powerful. It has 2 cylinders, I think. It doesn't make any more noise than the 3KW model does! (pant - pant). For the house, I'm powering it with a Chinese quiet-cabineted diesel genset I bought from an auto parts place for $1600. It's 6KW and I'm running it very nicely off my soup of 20 gallons of used frying oil from a Chinese restaurant mixed with a quart of mineral spirits to thin it and make it more volatile....same as my Mercedes diesel cars (73 220D and 83 300TD estate wagon). It's cheaper to power the house with the frying oil diesel genset than from the power company at 9.4US cents/Kwh....including lube oil changes....but the neighbors like to sleep...(c; They won't mind when its DARK and DEAD. Maybe some comments regarding purchase costs, operating, etc. The EU3000is must have 3000 hours on it, now. I bought it a spark plug because I felt guilty, but the old one looked like the new one so it wasn't really necessary. I keep a rough log of hours and change its one litre of 15W40 Rotella T every 100 hours, about. I've never had a single problem. The little one failed to start and I took it to a shop for a tuneup after, around, 1500 hours...same oil change interval. He cleaned the tiny carb's jets that were clogged and reassembled it. I don't know how it got in there. The carb is a float carb small as a weedeater's in size. Anything will clog a jet you can't even see through! It never repeated it and cranks on the 1st pull, now, with choke, of course. There is a remote-start kit available for the EU3000is, and I assume the EU6500is new one. You'll, of course, want the keyless remote start kit from Hayes I've actually seen work: http://www.hayesequipment.com/portab...reless_remote_ start_kit.htm You push the button, the little computer closes the choke and starts it, opening the choke at the correct time. Press the button again, and it shuts down the unit....easy installation. You won't even have to crawl out of your berth to start the tea water boiling...(c; I'm thinking of trying one but they seem pretty scarce over here and I'd hate to order one only to discover that they aren't what I imagined. They are much more quiet than a normal genset. They require very little maintenance. Just change the oil is all I do. The book wants you to disassemble it and clean the stupid spark arrestor Honda puts into the exhaust to keep the greenies in the forest happy. The only sparks I've seen are from a couple of shorted drop cords...(c; Another nice thing is the protection they have. The inverters are VERY quick to dump dangerous loads. They'll tolerate small overloads, like starting near-rating motors. Cranking two 8000 Btu Korean window ACs SIMULTANEOUSLY is no problem for the 3KW model. Sometimes I get a tripout of the inverter when one of the ACs tries to restart a pressure-locked compressor too soon. To clear the overload and restart, you simply shut down the engine and restart it....and you're back in action. There are also magnetic-trip breakers in case some stupid plugs the genset into something already hot. The engine has a great oil sensor in it. The computer shuts down the engine if the oil level drops below the add point and when you go to restart it lights a red oil warning light until you correct it. It won't run on low oil. After all these hours, it still doesn't use any oil, either one of them. Honda's Chinese contractors make fine engines. I don't take this statement lightly. But, at Pep Boys Auto Parts, where I bought the diesel Chinese genset, they have two model Chinese gas gensets with the SAME EXACT RED 11hp 3600 RPM OHC engine that my Honda EM5000X regular genset had in it....right down to the same castings without the HONDA logos punched into them! Honda is buying engines from the Chinese, like everyone else. I assume my two Honda electronic gensets are too, but have never seen a copy. Honda's nothing special any more in this homogenized economy. I am presently rebuilding a power boat and will eventually need auxiliary power and the choice is between a permanently mounted diesel unit and (maybe) the Honda. I'd be worried about carrying gasoline, gas fumes, another fuel system for the Honda, CO poisoning the diesel doesn't spew. Go with the diesel genset...a couple of sizes bigger than you think you need would be nice. This yellow Chinese genset is made to ISO9001 specifications. Just because its Chinese, doesn't make it junk. It's very heavily built...electric preheat...electric start or manually cranked with a compression release lever. It'd make a great sailboat engine for a 28 footer....and SIMPLE, the kind you can fix without a computer scientist. It's also really easy on fuel...not as easy as the Hondas and their computerized speed management...but really easy on frying oil...(c; Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:48:09 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: The only people who don't like them are those who have to listen to them when they're working hard. And those who are anchored or moored near them. They are an abomination in my experience. Much better to use a high output alternator to drive a large inverter. That's a much quieter and safer solution. |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:43:08 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . Thanks for the info. I had heard that the Hondas were a bit loud at high power and had thought to rebuild the exhaust system to incorporate a larger exhaust pipe and more muffling so, hopefully, it would run quieter although only rarely do I anchor in crowded anchorages. What's the matter, Pop? Takes you too long to untie all those dock lines and unplug the shore power cords and disconnect the water hoses and telephone and cable TV? Not to mention getting all the laundry off the lifelines and stowing all the junk that's lying all over every shelf and counter in the accommodation? And scraping all the barnacles off the propeller and getting the windlass working so you can get underway so you CAN anchor? Wilbur Hubbard Good Lord willie, what are you waffling on about now? It is always been apparent that you suffered from delusions of grandeur (you seemed to believe that others were interested in your comments) but now your reading comprehensive seems to be sliding downhill like a toboggan. Sad to say but the next phase will have you stumbling down the road drooling and mumbling and fumbling through garbage cans. People will cross the streets to avoid you and ultimately the boys in the white coats will sweep you up like garbage and spirit you away to the big house on the hill with the rubber rooms. Farewell poor Wilbur, we loathed him well, Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:13:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:55:03 -0500, jeff wrote: They indeed have an inverter, which means the motor is variable speed. At low load (or idle) it is very quiet and fuel efficient. I was, however, disappointed in the noise level when run a full power. From 20 yards behind my boat, (cramped mooring field distance) it is much loader than my Yanmar 2GM's, which means there are places I can't use it daily without being anti-social. I've been moored near a couple of "on deck" Hondas and they are way too loud. You could generate at least 2KW of AC by putting a high output alternator on each Yanmar and feeding an inverter through battery combiners. Here's what I'm using: http://www.fleetsource.com/product_p/110-555jho.htm http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|606044&id=605590 http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|328|51495|985|316473&id=88467 I really don't want to sit at anchor with both main engines roaring away. They would really be out to get me then :-) The choice is between a smallish permanently installed diesel gen set and the Honda with the honda being, perhaps, the simpler solution. On the other hand I have room for the diesel set in the engine room..... Decisions, decisions. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:31:07 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Larry, Could you give some detail regarding the new Honda generator sets, one of which that I understand you have. I believe they are DC generators driving an inverter. I have two, the little EU1000i 1KW portable and the more powerful EU3000is mounted on the back door of my service stepvan to power my electronics shop and 2 8000 Btu air conditioners. I had the 1KW first, but got a steal on the 3KW which is a MUCH better genset, much quieter at only 1200 RPM up to about 1800 watts load. You are only partly correct on the technology. The "alternator" is a series of multiphase, high frequency coils that look just like the stator in an outboard motor inside the flywheel of a, in the case of the 3KW, 6.5HP 4-stroke OHC engine. Very high frequency alternators require little "core" and, excited by rare earth magnets embedded into the flywheel, itself, produce tremendous high frequency power in a tiny, light package. The output varies all over the place with load and engine speed, which, in economy mode, is controlled by the inverter's computer to save fuel and reduce noise under lighter loads when full power isn't needed. Turn off economode and the engine runs at 2400 RPM under all loads. The 400VAC, multiphase output is fed to a set of high voltage rectifiers and filter caps where it's THEN turned into high voltage DC, reducing current losses and using small conductors, not massive battery cables. The HVDC from there is fed to a computer-controlled, electronic inverter that makes EXACTLY 60HZ (50 Hz for the rest of the planet) at EXACTLY 115VAC (230 VAC outside the backwards USA) so smooth and exact it's rated to operate computers. No matter what the engine speed is, or load up to rated output, the output of these puppies is rock solid. Not having a direct-drive low frequency monster alternator means the engine doesn't set the frequency of the AC output....Efficiency goes way up! 3 gallons of petrol will power the two AC units and my shop's power requirements for over 11 hours! The 3KW has a 3.2 gallon tank inside its quiet, insulated cabinet. The little genset runs about 3-4 hours at 500-600 watts on its little 4 litre plastic tankage before refilling it. Before you buy one of the little ones, be informed they run MUCH higher RPM to produce 1 or 2 KW from a really tiny flywheel alternator on their little 4-stroke engines. Even in Economy Mode, the little genset runs around 2200 to 4800 RPM, making a much more noticable, higher frequency, audio noise...still quite quiet but much more noticable. Of course, being gas engines, their exhaust is very toxic to humans sleeping in a hull, as always. The exhaust of the EU3000is (and the new EU6500is I drool over at Northern Tool near home) is dumped into the cooling air INSIDE the cabinet. There's no easy way to plumb its exhaust gas alone anywhere. The little gensets like my EU1000i has a tiny 1/2" exhaust pipe sticking out of the cabinet! I welded a 3/4" pipe nipple over the little 1/2" metal pipe exposed. To the threaded end of the pipe nipple, I put a 90 degree elbow that terminates in a flared copper tubing male fitting. I can now screw onto this flange a length of flexible stainless steel gas pipe used to connect natural gas to a fireplace burner. I made a loop out of the gas tubing to act as a heat exchanger, then ran the open end of the tubing through a hole the US Air Force left in the truck when they owned it in the deck at the rear of the truck. I work, not sleep, in the truck so the noise of running the tiny 1KW genset is quite tolerable....when compared to freezing to death in January trying to fix electronics when the OAT is -5C and 0C inside the truck. This recovers 100% of the heat coming off the little genset and a little 110VAC fan, running off the genset, of course, blows the heat recovered forward into the shop making it toasty warm for almost no fuel used....with nearly a kilowatt of electric power to run the shop to boot! The exhaust blows out the bottom and you can hold your hand into the gas stream. It's barely warm after I suck the heat out of it. The little genset powers the shop in winter...the big genset powers the shop when air conditioning is desirable. They are very convenient, both of them, but I wouldn't want to move the EU3000i 3KW genset as it's quite heavy with electric start, its AGM starting battery (a little motorcycle battery) and all. If it weren't permanently mounted on a 2000 pound angle bracket set, I'd have wheels under it. The EU6500is is even larger, of course, and very powerful. It has 2 cylinders, I think. It doesn't make any more noise than the 3KW model does! (pant - pant). For the house, I'm powering it with a Chinese quiet-cabineted diesel genset I bought from an auto parts place for $1600. It's 6KW and I'm running it very nicely off my soup of 20 gallons of used frying oil from a Chinese restaurant mixed with a quart of mineral spirits to thin it and make it more volatile....same as my Mercedes diesel cars (73 220D and 83 300TD estate wagon). It's cheaper to power the house with the frying oil diesel genset than from the power company at 9.4US cents/Kwh....including lube oil changes....but the neighbors like to sleep...(c; They won't mind when its DARK and DEAD. Maybe some comments regarding purchase costs, operating, etc. The EU3000is must have 3000 hours on it, now. I bought it a spark plug because I felt guilty, but the old one looked like the new one so it wasn't really necessary. I keep a rough log of hours and change its one litre of 15W40 Rotella T every 100 hours, about. I've never had a single problem. The little one failed to start and I took it to a shop for a tuneup after, around, 1500 hours...same oil change interval. He cleaned the tiny carb's jets that were clogged and reassembled it. I don't know how it got in there. The carb is a float carb small as a weedeater's in size. Anything will clog a jet you can't even see through! It never repeated it and cranks on the 1st pull, now, with choke, of course. There is a remote-start kit available for the EU3000is, and I assume the EU6500is new one. You'll, of course, want the keyless remote start kit from Hayes I've actually seen work: http://www.hayesequipment.com/portab...reless_remote_ start_kit.htm You push the button, the little computer closes the choke and starts it, opening the choke at the correct time. Press the button again, and it shuts down the unit....easy installation. You won't even have to crawl out of your berth to start the tea water boiling...(c; I'm thinking of trying one but they seem pretty scarce over here and I'd hate to order one only to discover that they aren't what I imagined. They are much more quiet than a normal genset. They require very little maintenance. Just change the oil is all I do. The book wants you to disassemble it and clean the stupid spark arrestor Honda puts into the exhaust to keep the greenies in the forest happy. The only sparks I've seen are from a couple of shorted drop cords...(c; Another nice thing is the protection they have. The inverters are VERY quick to dump dangerous loads. They'll tolerate small overloads, like starting near-rating motors. Cranking two 8000 Btu Korean window ACs SIMULTANEOUSLY is no problem for the 3KW model. Sometimes I get a tripout of the inverter when one of the ACs tries to restart a pressure-locked compressor too soon. To clear the overload and restart, you simply shut down the engine and restart it....and you're back in action. There are also magnetic-trip breakers in case some stupid plugs the genset into something already hot. The engine has a great oil sensor in it. The computer shuts down the engine if the oil level drops below the add point and when you go to restart it lights a red oil warning light until you correct it. It won't run on low oil. After all these hours, it still doesn't use any oil, either one of them. Honda's Chinese contractors make fine engines. I don't take this statement lightly. But, at Pep Boys Auto Parts, where I bought the diesel Chinese genset, they have two model Chinese gas gensets with the SAME EXACT RED 11hp 3600 RPM OHC engine that my Honda EM5000X regular genset had in it....right down to the same castings without the HONDA logos punched into them! Honda is buying engines from the Chinese, like everyone else. I assume my two Honda electronic gensets are too, but have never seen a copy. Honda's nothing special any more in this homogenized economy. I am presently rebuilding a power boat and will eventually need auxiliary power and the choice is between a permanently mounted diesel unit and (maybe) the Honda. I'd be worried about carrying gasoline, gas fumes, another fuel system for the Honda, CO poisoning the diesel doesn't spew. Go with the diesel genset...a couple of sizes bigger than you think you need would be nice. This yellow Chinese genset is made to ISO9001 specifications. Just because its Chinese, doesn't make it junk. It's very heavily built...electric preheat...electric start or manually cranked with a compression release lever. It'd make a great sailboat engine for a 28 footer....and SIMPLE, the kind you can fix without a computer scientist. It's also really easy on fuel...not as easy as the Hondas and their computerized speed management...but really easy on frying oil...(c; Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) Larry Thanks for ultra detailed explanation. The boat I'm rebuilding has an aircooled diesel gen set mounted in the engine compartment with a jury rigged fan to help it cool and an electric water pump to flow water through the exhaust. I did use it when I brought the boat up from Singapore but only when I was sitting there watching it. It will get replaced before much longer and thus my inquiry. I can build/buy a 6 KW water cooled diesel gen set and mount it where the old air cooled unit is mounted which, with a proper warning and shutdown systems can be run all the time, if necessary. But of course, I was trying to get "something for nothing" by, maybe, replacing the diesel unit with the Honda. For one thing the Honda would be lighter. I agree with you about gasoline and combustion gases but with the configuration of this boat neither the generator or the fuel tank need to be inside the boat. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
WaIIy wrote in
: Of course, even you would be hard-pressed to top your ' living on a boat simulator' story. Funny you should mention that....(c; "The Liveaboard Simulator" Just for fun, park your cars in the lot of the convenience store at least 2 blocks from your house. (Make believe the sidewalk is a floating dock between your car and the house. Move yourself and your family (If applicable) into 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. Measure the DECK space INSIDE your boat. Make sure the occupied house has no more space, or closet space, or drawer space. Boats don't have room for "beds", as such. Fold your Sealy Posturepedic up against a wall, it won't fit on a boat. Go to a hobby fabric store and buy a foam pad 5' 10" long and 4' wide AND NO MORE THAN 3" THICK. Cut it into a triangle so the little end is only 12" wide. This simulates the foam pad in the V-berth up in the pointy bow of the sailboat. Bring in the kitchen table from the kitchen you're not allowed to use. Put the pad UNDER the table, on the floor, so you can simulate the 3' of headroom over the pad. Block off both long sides of the pad, and the pointy end so you have to climb aboard the V-berth from the wide end where your pillows will be. The hull blocks off the sides of a V-berth and you have to climb up over the end of it through a narrow opening (hatch to main cabin) on a boat. You'll climb over your mate's head to go to the potty in the night. No fun for either party. Test her mettle and resolve by getting up this way right after you go to bed at night. There are lots of things to do on a boat and you'll forget at least one of them, thinking about it laying in bed, like "Did I remember to tie off the dingy better?" or "Is that spring line (at the dock) or anchor line (anchored out) as tight as it should be?" Boaters who don't worry about things like this laying in bed are soon aground or on fire or the laughing stock of an anchorage.... You need to find out how much climbing over her she will tolerate BEFORE you're stuck with a big boat and big marina bills and she refuses to sleep aboard it any more..... Bring a coleman stove into the bathroom and set it next to the bathroom sink. Your boat's sink is smaller, but we'll let you use the bathroom sink, anyways. Do all your cooking in the bathroom, WITHOUT using the bathroom power vent. If you have a boat vent, it'll be a useless 12v one that doesn't draw near the air your bathroom power vent draws to take away cooking odors. Leave the hall door open to simulate the open hatch. Take all the screens off your 2 bedroom's windows. Leave the windows open to let in the bugs that will invade your boat at dusk, and the flies attracted to the cooking. Borrow a 25 gallon drum mounted on a trailer. Flush your toilets into the drums. Trailer the drums to the convenience store to dump them when they get full. Turn off your sewer, you won't have one. This will simulate going to the "pump out station" every time the tiny drum is full. 25 gallons is actually LARGER than most holding tanks. They're more like 15 gallons on small sailboats under 40' because they were added to the boat after the law changed requiring them and there was no place to put it or a bigger one. They fill up really fast if you liveaboard! Unless your boat is large enough to have a big "head" with full bath, make believe your showers/bathtubs don't work. Make a deal with someone next door to the convenience store to use THEIR bathroom for bathing at the OTHER end of the DOCK. (Marina rest room) If you use this rest room to potty, while you're there, make believe it has no paper towels or toilet paper. Bring your own. Bring your own soap and anything else you'd like to use there, too. If your boat HAS a shower in its little head, we'll let you use the shower end of the bathtub, but only as much tub as the boat has FREE shower space for standing to shower. As the boat's shower drains into a little pan in the bilge, be sure to leave the soapy shower water in the bottom of the tub for a few days before draining it. Boat shower sumps always smell like spent soap growing exotic living organisms science hasn't actually discovered or named, yet. Make sure your simulated V-berth is less than 3' from this soapy water for sleeping. The shower sump is under the passageway to the V-berth next to your pillows. Run you whole house through a 20 amp breaker to simulate available dock power at the marina. If you're thinking of anchoring out, turn off the main breaker and "make do" with a boat battery and flashlights. Don't forget you have to heat your house on this 20A supply and try to keep the water from freezing in winter. Turn off the water main valve in front of your house. Run a hose from your neighbor's lawn spigot over to your lawn spigot and get all your water from there. Try to keep the hose from freezing all winter. As your boat won't have a laundry, disconnect yours. Go to a boat supply place, like West Marine, and buy you a dock cart. Haul ALL your supplies, laundry, garbage, etc. between the car at the convenience store and house in this cart. Once a week, haul your outboard motor to the car, leave it a day then haul it back to the house, in the cart, to simulate "boat problems" that require "boat parts" to be removed/replaced on your "dock". If ANYTHING ever comes out of that cart between the convenience store and the house, put it in your garage and forget about it. (Simulates losing it over the side of the dock, where it sank in 23' of water and was dragged off by the current.) Each morning, about 5AM, have someone you don't know run a weedeater back and forth under your bedroom windows to simulate the fishermen leaving the marina to go fishing. Have him slam trunk lids, doors, blow car horns and bang some heavy pans together from 4AM to 5AM before lighting off the weedeater. (Simulates loading boats with booze and fishing gear and gas cans.) Once a week, have him bang the running weedeater into your bedroom wall to simulate the idiot who drove his boat into the one you're sleeping in because he was half asleep leaving the dock. Put a rope over a big hook in the ceiling over your "bed". Put a sheet of plywood under your pad with a place to hook a rope to one side or the other. Hook one end of the rope to the plywood hook and the other end out where he can pull on it. As soon as he shuts off the weedeater, have him pull hard 9 times on the rope to tilt your bed at least 30 degrees. (Simulates the wakes of the fishermen blasting off trying to beat each other to the fishing.) Anytime there is a storm in your area, have someone constantly pull on the rope. It's rough riding storms in the marina or anchored out! If your boat is a sailboat, install a big wire from the top of the tallest tree to your electrical ground in the house to simulate mast lightning strikes in the marina, or to give you the thought of potential lightning strikes. Each time you "go out", or think of going boating away from your marina, disconnect the neighbor's water hose, your electric wires, all the umbilicals your new boat will use to make life more bearable in the marina. Use bottled drinking water for 2 days for everything. Get one of those 5 gallon jugs with the airpump on top from a bottled water company. This is your boat's "at sea" water system simulator. You'll learn to conserve water this way. Of course, not having the marina's AC power supply, you'll be lighting and all from a car battery, your only source of power. If you own or can borrow a generator, feel free to leave it running to provide AC power up to the limit of the generator. If you're thinking about a 30' sailboat, you won't have room for a generator so don't use it. Any extra family members must be sleeping on the settees in the main cabin or in the quarter berth under the cockpit....unless you intend to get a boat over 40-something feet with an aft cabin. Smaller boats have quarter berths. Cut a pad out of the same pad material that is no more than 2' wide by 6' long. Get a cardboard box from an appliance store that a SMALL refridgerator came in. Put the pad in the box, cut to fit, and make sure only one end of the box is open. The box can be no more than 2 feet above the pad. Quarter berths are really tight. Make them sleep in there, with little or no air circulation. That's what sleeping in a quarterberth is all about. Of course, to simulate sleeping anchored out for the weekend, no heat or air conditioning will be used and all windows will be open without screens so the bugs can get in. In the mornings, everybody gets up and goes out on the patio to enjoy the sunrise. Then, one person at a time goes back inside to dress, shave, clean themselves in the tiny cabin unless you're a family of nudists who don't mind looking at each other in the buff. You can't get dressed in the stinky little head with the door closed on a sailboat. Hell, there's barely room to bend over so you can sit on the commode. So, everyone will dress in the main cabin....one at a time. Boat tables are 2' x 4' and mounted next to the settee. There's no room for chairs in a boat. So, eat off a 2X4' space on that kitchen table you slept under while sitting on a couch (settee simulator). You can also go out with breakfast and sit on the patio (cockpit), if you like. Ok, breakfast is over. Crank up the lawnmower under the window for 2 hours. It's time to recharge the batteries from last night's usage and to freeze the coldplate in the boat's icebox which runs off a compressor on the engine. Get everybody to clean up your little hovel. Don't forget to make the beds from ONE END ONLY. You can't get to the other 3 sides of a boat bed pad. All hands go outside and washdown the first fiberglass UPS truck that passes by. That's about how big the deck is on your 35' sailboat that needs to have the ocean cleaned off it daily or it'll turn the white fiberglass all brown like the UPS truck. Now, doesn't the UPS truck look nice like your main deck? Ok, we're going to need some food, do the laundry, buy some boat parts that failed because the manufacturer's bean counters got cheap and used plastics and the wife wants to "eat out, I'm fed up with cooking on the Coleman stove" today. Let's make believe we're not at home, but in some exotic port like Ft Lauderdale, today....on our cruise to Key West......Before "going ashore", plan on buying all the food you'll want to eat that will: A - Fit into the Coleman Cooler on the floor B - You can cook on the Coleman stove without an oven or all those fancy kitchen tools you don't have on the boat C - And will last you for 10 days, in case the wind drops and it takes more time than we planned at sea. Plan meals carefully in a boat. We can't buy more than we can STORE, either! You haven't washed clothes since you left home and everything is dirty. Even if it's not, pretend it is for the boater-away-from-home simulator. Put all the clothes in your simulated boat in a huge dufflebag so we can take it to the LAUNDRY! Manny's Marina HAS a laundromat, but the hot water heater is busted (for the last 8 months) and Manny has "parts on order" for it.....saving Manny $$$$ on the electric bill! Don't forget to carry the big dufflebag with us on our "excursion". God that bag stinks, doesn't it?....PU! Of course, we came here by BOAT, so we don't have a car. Some nice marinas have a shuttle bus, but they're not a taxi. The shuttle bus will only go to West Marine or the tourist traps, so we'll be either taking the city bus, if there is one or taxi cabs or shopping at the marina store which has almost nothing to buy at enormous prices. Walk to the 7-11 store, where you have your car stored, but ignore the car. Make believe it isn't there. No one drove it to Ft Lauderdale for you. Use the payphone at the 7-11 and call a cab. Don't give the cab driver ANY instructions because in Ft Lauderdale you haven't the foggiest idea where West Marine is located or how to get there, unlike at home. We'll go to West Marine, first, because if we don't the "head" back on the boat won't be working for a week because little Suzy broke a valve in it trying to flush some paper towels. This is your MOST important project, today....that valve in the toilet!! After the cab drivers drives around for an hour looking for West Marine and asking his dispatcher how to get there. Don't forget to UNLOAD your stuff from the cab, including the dirty clothes in the dufflebag then go into West Marine and give the clerk a $100 bill, simulating the cost of toilet parts. Lexus parts are cheaper than toilet parts at West Marine. See for yourself! The valve she broke, the seals that will have to be replaced on the way into the valve will come to $100 easy. Tell the clerk you're using my liveaboard simulator and to take his girlfriend out to dinner on your $100 greenback. If you DO buy the boat, this'll come in handy when you DO need boat parts because he'll remember you for the great time his girlfriend gave him on your $100 tip. Hard-to-find boat parts will arrive in DAYS, not months like the rest of us. It's just a good political move while in simulation mode. Call another cab from West Marine's phone, saving 50c on payphone charges. Load the cab with all your stuff, toilet parts, DIRTY CLOTHES then tell the cabbie to take you to the laundromat so we can wash the stinky clothes in the trunk. The luxury marina's laundry in Ft Lauderdale has a broken hot water heater. They're working on it, the girl at the store counter, said, yesterday. Mentioning the $12/ft you paid to park the boat at their dock won't get the laundry working before we leave for Key West. Do your laundry in the laundromat the cabbie found for you. Just because noone speaks English in this neighborhood, don't worry. You'll be fine this time of day near noon. Call another cab to take us out of here to a supermarket. When you get there, resist the temptation to "load up" because your boat has limited storage and very limited refridgeration space (remember? Coleman Cooler). Buy from the list we made early this morning. Another package of cookies is OK. Leave one of the kids guarding the pile of clean laundry just inside the supermarket's front door....We learned our lesson and DIDN'T forget and leave it in the cab, again! Call another cab to take us back to the marina, loaded up with clean clothes and food and all-important boat parts. Isn't Ft Lauderdale beautiful from a cab? It's too late to go exploring, today. Maybe tomorrow.... Don't forget to tell the cab to go to the 7-11 (marina parking lot)....not your front door....cabs don't float well. Ok, haul all the stuff in the dock cart from the 7-11 store the two blocks to the "boat" bedroom. Wait 20 minutes before starting out for the house. This simulates waiting for someone to bring back a marina-owned dock cart from down the docks.....They always leave them outside their boats, until the marina "crew" get fed up with newbies like us asking why there aren't any carts and go down the docks to retrieve them. Put all the stuff away, food and clothes, in the tiny drawer space provided. Have a beer on the patio (cockpit) and watch the sunset. THIS is living! Now, disassemble the toilet in your bathroom, take out the wax ring under it and put it back. Reassemble the toilet. This completes the simulation of putting the new valve in the "head" on the boat. Uh, uh, NO POWERVENT! GET YOUR HAND OFF THAT SWITCH! The whole "boat" smells like the inside of the holding tank for hours after fixing the toilet in a real boat, too! Spray some Lysol if you got it.... After getting up, tomorrow morning, from your "V-Berth", take the whole family out to breakfast by WALKING to the nearest restaurant, then take a cab to any local park or attraction you like. We're off today to see the sights of Ft Lauderdale.....before heading out to sea, again, to Key West. Take a cab back home after dinner out and go to bed, exhausted, on your little foam pad under the table..... Get up this morning and disconnect all hoses, electrical wires, etc. Get ready for "sea". Crank up the lawn mower under the open bedroom window for 4 hours while we motor out to find some wind. ONE responsible adult MUST be sitting on the hot patio all day, in shifts, "on watch" looking out for other boats, ships, etc. If you have a riding lawn mower, let the person "on watch" drive it around the yard all day to simulate driving the boat down the ICW in heavy traffic. About 2PM, turn off the engine and just have them sit on the mower "steering" it on the patio. We're under sail, now. Every hour or so, take everyone out in the yard with a big rope and have a tug-of-war to simulate the work involved with setting sail, changing sail, trimming sail. Make sure everyone gets all sweaty in the heat. Sailors working on sailboats are always all sweaty or we're not going anywhere fast! Do this all day, today, all night, tonight, all day, tomorrow, all night tomorrow night and all day the following day until 5PM when you "arrive" at the next port you're going to. Make sure noone in the family leaves the confines of the little bedroom or the patio during our "trip". Make sure everyone conserves water, battery power, etc., things you'll want to conserve while being at sea on a trip somewhere. Everyone can go up to the 7-11 for an icecream as soon as we get the "boat" docked on day 3, the first time anyone has left the confines of the bedroom/patio in 3 days. Question - Was anyone suicidal during our simulated voyage? Keep an eye out for anyone with a problem being cooped up with other family members. If anyone is attacked, any major fights break out, any threats to throw the captain to the fish.....forget all about boats and buy a motorhome, instead. |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: It will get replaced before much longer and thus my inquiry. I can build/buy a 6 KW water cooled diesel gen set and mount it where the old air cooled unit is mounted which, with a proper warning and shutdown systems can be run all the time, if necessary. But of course, I was trying to get "something for nothing" by, maybe, replacing the diesel unit with the Honda. For one thing the Honda would be lighter. What does the used frying oil market look like in Thailand? We have it running out our ears, here! I get a couple of calls a week from other restaurants wanting me to come pick it up like I do my "favorite three". It costs them a fortune to have it disposed of, normally. They are more than happy to cooperate with putting it back in the boxes it comes in...already prefiltered of the big stuff. If you installed a diesel, you could have free power, forever, except for maintenance and lube oil. I even tried recycling used lube oil into the mix with good results in the Benz cars. Just keep the used oil clean when you drain it and use about 5%, by volume, and the diesel doesn't seem to be able to tell any difference. It gets rid of used oil, without having to find some place to dispose of it. Hell, it's oil! BURN IT! 5% doesn't make my diesels smoke, noticably. If the Chinese 6KW diesel didn't weigh the same as a 8V92TA, I'd use it on the truck and dump the Hondas I have to pay gas bills to run. I was pondering, but never acted upon, just adding a big alternator (10KW Harbor Freight importers sells for $299 bare) to my 6.5L Chevy V-8 diesel mover in the shop. But, that would put excessive hours on a way-too-big- and-expensive-to-overhaul drive engine. It wasn't economically feasible if you factored in maintenance and overhauls on the big V-8. Gas for Hondas are the cheapest alternative, still. But, as we pass $US3.50/US gallon and head for $US5/USgallon soon, that may change. Gold passed $800/oz, yesterday, making Federal Reserve fake banknotes more worthless by the day. Even the stock markets can't keep up with the private Federal Reserve banknote devaluation with their inflated prices any more. We're heading into a tailspin, unless America comes to its senses and the government starts printing real money and we hang all the banker billionaires....which won't happen with all the bribe money floating around. In the World's present economic situation, I'd stick with prime movers I can, if conditions drop much further, run off alternative fuels I'm capable of producing without wheelbarrows full of worthless banknotes. Hope you see my point. Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:55:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: I really don't want to sit at anchor with both main engines roaring away. They would really be out to get me then :-) Yes, if you have big engines that is not the way to go at anchor. It works very well underway however to minimize generator run time. |
Ping Larry
On 2007-11-21 13:10:00 -0500, Larry said:
Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. As much as I believe oil is (still) priced artificially low -- particularly in the US -- as the cost of that raw material goes up, alternate sources and alternate power sources will be developed. Back when I was in school (the late 60s), "they" said we'd run out of oil about 2000. Now that we've passed that milestone, "they" are saying we'll run out of oil in about the same time period. "They" also said at the time that we were heading towards a little ice age.... The problem with such predictions is that they're based upon everything staying the same and, as we're all aware, the only constant is change. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Larry
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:10:00 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : It will get replaced before much longer and thus my inquiry. I can build/buy a 6 KW water cooled diesel gen set and mount it where the old air cooled unit is mounted which, with a proper warning and shutdown systems can be run all the time, if necessary. But of course, I was trying to get "something for nothing" by, maybe, replacing the diesel unit with the Honda. For one thing the Honda would be lighter. What does the used frying oil market look like in Thailand? We have it running out our ears, here! I get a couple of calls a week from other restaurants wanting me to come pick it up like I do my "favorite three". It costs them a fortune to have it disposed of, normally. They are more than happy to cooperate with putting it back in the boxes it comes in...already prefiltered of the big stuff. After you previous post about bio-diesel I investigated used cooking oil in thailand and found that the big fast food chains, Mcdonalds, KFC, etc., all have contracts to selling their used cooking oil - to whom or for what they did not, would not, discuss. The normal Thai/Chinese kitchen does not produce any appreciable amount of used cooking oil as most dishes are prepared in a wok and the oil becomes part of the food. I also priced new palm oil and at the moment it is slightly higher in price then diesel. So, at least for now, there is no free lunch in thailand :-) If you installed a diesel, you could have free power, forever, except for maintenance and lube oil. I even tried recycling used lube oil into the mix with good results in the Benz cars. Just keep the used oil clean when you drain it and use about 5%, by volume, and the diesel doesn't seem to be able to tell any difference. It gets rid of used oil, without having to find some place to dispose of it. Hell, it's oil! BURN IT! 5% doesn't make my diesels smoke, noticably. I saw an article in one of the boating magazines that talked about pouring drained engine oil directly into the diesel tanks but I am not convinced that is the way to go given that some injection pumps will pump over 2,000 PSI in a piston pump with no seals I am a bit wary about dumping used oil out of MY engines into the fuel. If the Chinese 6KW diesel didn't weigh the same as a 8V92TA, I'd use it on the truck and dump the Hondas I have to pay gas bills to run. I was pondering, but never acted upon, just adding a big alternator (10KW Harbor Freight importers sells for $299 bare) to my 6.5L Chevy V-8 diesel mover in the shop. But, that would put excessive hours on a way-too-big- and-expensive-to-overhaul drive engine. It wasn't economically feasible if you factored in maintenance and overhauls on the big V-8. Gas for Hondas are the cheapest alternative, still. But, as we pass $US3.50/US gallon and head for $US5/USgallon soon, that may change. Gold passed $800/oz, yesterday, making Federal Reserve fake banknotes more worthless by the day. Even the stock markets can't keep up with the private Federal Reserve banknote devaluation with their inflated prices any more. We're heading into a tailspin, unless America comes to its senses and the government starts printing real money and we hang all the banker billionaires....which won't happen with all the bribe money floating around. Thai women wear 99% pure gold jewelry and my wife keeps reminding me about how much I used to bitch about buying her a new neck chain or bracelet and how much more they are worth today. she reckons we should have bought more. However it is a somewhat one sided argument because once she gets jewelry she won't sell it. In the World's present economic situation, I'd stick with prime movers I can, if conditions drop much further, run off alternative fuels I'm capable of producing without wheelbarrows full of worthless banknotes. Hope you see my point. I see your point and have looked into converting the family gasoline car to LPG. It is not a really costly conversion but the price of LPG is following right along behind gasoline. By the way, the Thais are now aggressively pushing gasohol but only slightly cheaper then gasoline. From reading the newspaper it appears that most, if not all of the alcohol is produced by one or two large agro-industrial companies here, who have close political ties with the major parties. You figure. Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... Larry Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:21:39 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-11-21 13:10:00 -0500, Larry said: Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. As much as I believe oil is (still) priced artificially low -- particularly in the US -- as the cost of that raw material goes up, alternate sources and alternate power sources will be developed. In actual fact the costs of exploration and production drilling and/or production costs for oil have not gone up appreciably. The high oil costs are a direct effect of greater world usage. Now having said that there many fields that were discovered years ago but were too expensive to produce at crude prices at the time of discovery that are now being re-drilled as current costs make them viable to produce. Back when I was in school (the late 60s), "they" said we'd run out of oil about 2000. Now that we've passed that milestone, "they" are saying we'll run out of oil in about the same time period. Most "estimates" have been made on known sources and were reasonable accurate for those sources, but as prices go up more expensive methods of exploration become more economical and new discoveries are being made. Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. "They" also said at the time that we were heading towards a little ice age.... The problem with such predictions is that they're based upon everything staying the same and, as we're all aware, the only constant is change. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Honda EU2000i - was Ping Larry
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:15:08 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote: On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:55:23 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: I really don't want to sit at anchor with both main engines roaring away. They would really be out to get me then :-) Yes, if you have big engines that is not the way to go at anchor. It works very well underway however to minimize generator run time. Well, of course the main engines charge the battery while under way, and usually it is comfortable to sleep at anchor without air conditioning but there are nights when it rains or the mosquitos are out, that it is nice to close the boat up and turn on the air con. Then I want A.C. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
Jere Lull wrote in news:2007112119214075249-
jerelull@maccom: I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. This is no bounce. It has been a steady, until the last 3 months, climb as we spend our way into oblivion on the Freemason's New World Order wars the world bankers want us in for maximum profits. The massive printing of Federal Reserve banknotes by that private corporation can only cause this kind of currency devaluation, ruining people's savings, investments and driving the whole country into ruin. Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: The high oil costs are a direct effect of greater world usage. I disagree. The price of oil is caused by these incessant wars the bankers create to lend vast sums of their banknotes to governments, at interest, to reap huge profits. Case in point, look at this chart compensated for the bankers devaluing their banknotes: http://zfacts.com/p/35.html Each huge increase in the price of fuel is caused by WAR, not consumption. It is CONTRIVED, and was fed the ultimate gift by the false flag operation of 9/11/01 by the criminals in power...in banking and in government. Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: From reading the newspaper it appears that most, if not all of the alcohol is produced by one or two large agro-industrial companies here, who have close political ties with the major parties. You figure. Wow...Thailand is exactly like America! Big agro-industrial companies hold a strangle on our food, here, too.... Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:21:39 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-11-21 13:10:00 -0500, Larry said: Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. As much as I believe oil is (still) priced artificially low -- particularly in the US -- as the cost of that raw material goes up, alternate sources and alternate power sources will be developed. In actual fact the costs of exploration and production drilling and/or production costs for oil have not gone up appreciably. The high oil costs are a direct effect of greater world usage. Now having said that there many fields that were discovered years ago but were too expensive to produce at crude prices at the time of discovery that are now being re-drilled as current costs make them viable to produce. Back when I was in school (the late 60s), "they" said we'd run out of oil about 2000. Now that we've passed that milestone, "they" are saying we'll run out of oil in about the same time period. Most "estimates" have been made on known sources and were reasonable accurate for those sources, but as prices go up more expensive methods of exploration become more economical and new discoveries are being made. Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. "They" also said at the time that we were heading towards a little ice age.... The problem with such predictions is that they're based upon everything staying the same and, as we're all aware, the only constant is change. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) Crude price is based on the dollar. As the dollar falls, oil goes up. G |
Ping Larry
Gordon wrote in news:13k9trbq2l8gr10
@corp.supernews.com: Crude price is based on the dollar. As the dollar falls, oil goes up. G Not for long. OPEC is looking for a more stable currency. As the dollar's value plummets, with OPEC countries holding vast piles of useless dollars losing their asses, it's pretty easy to understand why they want rid of it. The Amero will replace it. I think this devaluation is a scam to make the Amero easier to sell to the stupid masses....just like 9-11.... Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
On 2007-11-21 21:13:57 -0500, Larry said:
Jere Lull wrote in news:2007112119214075249- jerelull@maccom: I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. This is no bounce. It has been a steady, until the last 3 months, climb as ... And it wasn't a "bounce" then, either. '-) Which isn't to say that if you have enough stashed away to retire permanently that it would be a bad idea to convert it into something based upon the valuation of gold. The amount of gold it would take to buy a mid-range BMW or similar vehicle has been surprisingly (to many) constant over the last few decades when expressed in ounces of gold. Personally, I prefer to bank on economies, so currently stash most of my retirement funds into low-cost derivatives of the US and foreign markets, primarily asian right now, but I was "big" on the EU a few years ago when the euro was valued less than the US dollar. I'm considering shifting most of my investments to those based upon the US economy now, since the dollar is so reasonably priced. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Larry
On 2007-11-21 20:39:15 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said:
Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. I agree and am personally working towards zero "oil" consumption (even bio-oil that I currently consume), but reiterate that some sources of "oil" will be available if, and only if, the cost of the raw materials rises to a realistic value. If "crude" rises to $200 per barrel, reserves will "expand" exponentially. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Larry
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:28:32 -0800, Gordon wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:21:39 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-11-21 13:10:00 -0500, Larry said: Here's the scariest website I know of: http://kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif Sure glad I'm not dependent on money for fuel.... I understand your sentiment, but I was around in the 70s when it became legal to own gold again -- and the price bounced to $800/oz on speculation. The current valuations are simply speculation by the worst of the pessimists. As much as I believe oil is (still) priced artificially low -- particularly in the US -- as the cost of that raw material goes up, alternate sources and alternate power sources will be developed. In actual fact the costs of exploration and production drilling and/or production costs for oil have not gone up appreciably. The high oil costs are a direct effect of greater world usage. Now having said that there many fields that were discovered years ago but were too expensive to produce at crude prices at the time of discovery that are now being re-drilled as current costs make them viable to produce. Back when I was in school (the late 60s), "they" said we'd run out of oil about 2000. Now that we've passed that milestone, "they" are saying we'll run out of oil in about the same time period. Most "estimates" have been made on known sources and were reasonable accurate for those sources, but as prices go up more expensive methods of exploration become more economical and new discoveries are being made. Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. "They" also said at the time that we were heading towards a little ice age.... The problem with such predictions is that they're based upon everything staying the same and, as we're all aware, the only constant is change. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) Crude price is based on the dollar. As the dollar falls, oil goes up. G That is correct in the sense that crude prices are quoted in US dollars however the price is not necessarily paid in dollars. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:31:41 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : The high oil costs are a direct effect of greater world usage. I disagree. The price of oil is caused by these incessant wars the bankers create to lend vast sums of their banknotes to governments, at interest, to reap huge profits. Case in point, look at this chart compensated for the bankers devaluing their banknotes: http://zfacts.com/p/35.html Each huge increase in the price of fuel is caused by WAR, not consumption. It is CONTRIVED, and was fed the ultimate gift by the false flag operation of 9/11/01 by the criminals in power...in banking and in government. Larry You are correct that the price of oil generally goes up during a war however at the moment the demand for oil is going up at a pretty high rate. Higher demand, higher price. But "contrived" is too strong a statement, influenced perhaps. I was around the oil business too long. Oil is sold in many ways but a large percent is not controlled by the international oil companies. For example: for years the Internationals operating oil fields in Indonesia had to allocate a certain percent of their production to Indonesia for domestic use. At the same time the Indonesian National Oil Company was producing oil for use in Indonesia. The result was a substantial amount of surplus oil that was sold onto the international market by local brokers. In some cases oil was even sold at prices lower then benchmark,prices even though it was in fact benchmark oil. Why? Because the national oil company needed money. My point is that the oil business is not controlled by a monolithic block, there are a multitude of little guys that are , in many cases selling below market because they need the money. If Indonesia were to announce tomorrow that they had made a discovery of the largest oil deposits in history the price wold fall dramatically because oil brokers would figure that there would be an oil glut in a little while. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:05:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
Gordon wrote in news:13k9trbq2l8gr10 : Crude price is based on the dollar. As the dollar falls, oil goes up. G Not for long. OPEC is looking for a more stable currency. As the dollar's value plummets, with OPEC countries holding vast piles of useless dollars losing their asses, it's pretty easy to understand why they want rid of it. The Amero will replace it. I think this devaluation is a scam to make the Amero easier to sell to the stupid masses....just like 9-11.... Larry It doesn't matter what the price is quoted in. It used to be Pounds Sterling, now it is dollars. tomorrow it might be gold. It is just a standard way to verbalize a value. When it comes to paying for it the payment can be made in any currency. If a broker asks for payment to be made in dinars or Euros, or whatever that is how the money gets paid over. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:14:35 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-11-21 20:39:15 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said: Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. I agree and am personally working towards zero "oil" consumption (even bio-oil that I currently consume), but reiterate that some sources of "oil" will be available if, and only if, the cost of the raw materials rises to a realistic value. If "crude" rises to $200 per barrel, reserves will "expand" exponentially. I think I mentioned that there are many fields that for one reason or another were too expensive to produce at $60 dollar crude that are now viable. When the price hits $200 then more fields will be opened up. By the way, at the present it is probably impossible to be a zero oil consumer since a very large portion of world crude production is used in other then power production. Nearly all plastics and a great deal of the fertilizer used are made from oil. I'm not 100% sure but I'd guess that much of your boat is actually made from oil. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:34:25 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : From reading the newspaper it appears that most, if not all of the alcohol is produced by one or two large agro-industrial companies here, who have close political ties with the major parties. You figure. Wow...Thailand is exactly like America! Big agro-industrial companies hold a strangle on our food, here, too.... Larry Well, not quite a strangle hold but we are getting there. The C.P. Group (don;t ask me to spell it) is one of the largest agro-industry companies in the world and one of the very first to move into China. Bumble Bee Tuna is owned by a Thai company. Thailand is the world's largest producer of raw rubber, and so on. But, you can still go into the countryside and buy local grown rice, pigs, chickens. The little guy still has the tip of his nose above water, but for how much longer I don't know. Not long I think. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
Jere Lull wrote in news:2007112202034075249-
jerelull@maccom: The amount of gold it would take to buy a mid-range BMW or similar vehicle has been surprisingly (to many) constant over the last few decades when expressed in ounces of gold. ....probably because the actual VALUE of gold hasn't changed in 5000 years. IT, not some paper scam from the elite banker class, is the standard by which value is measured. Value doesn't change.....prices do. Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
WaIIy wrote in
: One liter of used vegetable oil can produce 0.9 liter of biodiesel fuel, according to the company. SHHHHHHHHH! GEEZ! Keep it QUIET!.....(c; Next thing you know these Vietnamese restaurant owners see this and they'll want me to pay for it! Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: If Indonesia were to announce tomorrow that they had made a discovery of the largest oil deposits in history the price wold fall dramatically because oil brokers would figure that there would be an oil glut in a little while. In 1978-79, I lived in Tehran, Iran. I worked for an American contractor in the Iranian Air Force SIGINT/ELINT business. We monitored Saddam and Afghanistan and along the Gulf, while the CIA kept an eye on the Russians along the northern border from atop the Alborz Mountains. I got to fly in the mission's C-130's across Iran many times, even though it wasn't really my job description because I'm a good technician they lacked. I'd fly every chance I got. When a Richter 7 earthquake hit the little city of Tabbas, I flew 24/7 for over a week, sleeping on the airplanes and eating MREs from a can delivering stuff to the refugees to live on. It was awful. The whole city collapsed just as they were eating dinner. 25,000 died in seconds. I'll tell you where new oil is. It's in the Iranian mountains that have never been walked on in the history of man. Most people have no idea now VAST this country is. The population is centered around a scattering of cities with an amazingly wide unspoiled wilderness in between. Iran's mountains are some of the most beautiful places on the planet, totally inaccessible on the ground. I sat for hours in the open aft hatch of the C-130s taking it all in. Too bad cameras were forbidden. If we had crashed, we'd still be there decades later. As an example of what's in those mountains, two Americans who worked for National Iranian Oil flew out to an area with no history looking for more oil in a helicopter. They didn't find any. But, alas, they stumbled upon the second largest deposit of virgin COPPER on the planet! Some of it even laid on the ground! Noone knew of it, before, because in 5000 years noone had ever been there. There's only a shortage of ROADS and PIPELINES in Iran.....it's why the bankers want America to attack them next in their conquest for the "New World Order" Orwell described. Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
Larry wrote:
WaIIy wrote in : One liter of used vegetable oil can produce 0.9 liter of biodiesel fuel, according to the company. SHHHHHHHHH! GEEZ! Keep it QUIET!.....(c; Next thing you know these Vietnamese restaurant owners see this and they'll want me to pay for it! Larry Portland Oregon recyclers are PAYING restaurants up to $1.30 per gallon! G |
Ping Larry
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:34:08 -0500, WaIIy
wrote: On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:39:02 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: After you previous post about bio-diesel I investigated used cooking oil in thailand and found that the big fast food chains, Mcdonalds, KFC, etc., all have contracts to selling their used cooking oil - to whom or for what they did not, would not, discuss. The normal Thai/Chinese kitchen does not produce any appreciable amount of used cooking oil as most dishes are prepared in a wok and the oil becomes part of the food. I also priced new palm oil and at the moment it is slightly higher in price then diesel. So, at least for now, there is no free lunch in thailand :-) Used cooking oil fuels Thai crimefighters Nov 14, 2007 BANGKOK (AFP) — Thailand's police are turning to used cooking oil as they seek cheaper and more environmentally-friendly fuels in the face of soaring oil prices, they said Wednesday. Police budgets have been hit hard by oil prices of more than 90 dollars a barrel, forcing them to tap alternative sources such as biodiesel made from old cooking oil donated by hotels, fast food shops and even shrines. "The purpose of this project is in response to the King urging us to use biodiesel, save the budget, reduce pollution," Lieutenant Colonel Tepvisit Potigengrid, deputy commander of Bangkok's Bangrak district, told AFP. He said homemade biodiesel now accounted for 50 percent of the fuel used at his city centre station since the project was launched in March. Out of the 88 police stations in the Thai capital, eight have adopted the project. http://www.mywire.com/pubs/AFP/2007/11/14/4947523 ================== Thai oil refiner to produce biodiesel with vegetable oil A Thai major oil refiner, Bangchak Petroleum Plc, has launched a project to buy used vegetable oil from consumers to produce biodiesel to help recycle vegetable oil that would otherwise provide a health risk and disposal problem. Bangchak president Anusorn Saengnimnuan and Prince of Songkhla University (PSU), Hat Yai Campus Rector Boonsom Siribamrungsuk signed an agreement to cooperate in producing biodiesel from used vegetable oil, Thai News Agency reported Monday. Anusorn said Bangchak is now constructing biodiesel refinery which has a capacity of 20,000 liters per day which is expected to be completed in November. The biodiesel refinery would use technology developed by PSU and biodiesel from the plant would be sold at Bangchak's gas stations, he said. Five Bangchak petrol stations in Bangkok will initially buy used vegetable oil from consumers at 12 baht per kilogram if the oil passes the company's acceptance criteria such as bright color and not being contaminated with water or food. One liter of used vegetable oil can produce 0.9 liter of biodiesel fuel, according to the company. The program is in response to the Thai government policy to promote the use of biodiesel to 8.5 million liters per day, Anusorn said, as Bangchak expects to have 100 biodiesel stations operational by the end of this year. Source:Xinhua http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20...05_299669.html Yes, I read those articles some months ago in the Bangkok Post (the largest English language newspaper in Thailand) however, other then the article nothing more appears to be happening. As far as the police using bio-diesel at 8 of 88 police stations in Bangkok it frankly sounds rather strange as the Bangkok police's major use of motor vehicles in Bangkok is motorcycles. Not diesel trucks. If Bangchak plans on having 100 biodiesel stations operational by the end of the year they better get started as it is November and not a one is under construction. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Bangchak only refines fuel, I believe it has no retail sales at all. A brother-in-law had plans to start a palm oil refinery in N.E. Thailand to produce biodiesel and abandoned the project as there was no interest by trucking companies and the banks felt the idea was poor and had no interest in investing. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: sounds rather strange as the Bangkok police's major use of motor vehicles in Bangkok is motorcycles. Not diesel trucks. Maybe they're going diesel motorcycles: http://www.dieselbike.net/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_motorcycle http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...-turbo-diesel- motorcycle/ Here's a Royal Enfield 1-cyl Diesel motorcycle....on the road! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bXcg...eature=related It sometimes approached.....well....1200 RPM!.,...(c; Larry -- Xterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; |
Ping Larry
On 2007-11-22 06:23:18 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:14:35 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-11-21 20:39:15 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said: Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. I agree and am personally working towards zero "oil" consumption (even bio-oil that I currently consume), but reiterate that some sources of "oil" will be available if, and only if, the cost of the raw materials rises to a realistic value. If "crude" rises to $200 per barrel, reserves will "expand" exponentially. I think I mentioned that there are many fields that for one reason or another were too expensive to produce at $60 dollar crude that are now viable. When the price hits $200 then more fields will be opened up. That was what I was referring to. I recall reading that there astounding amounts of oil in North America, just too expensive. Alternate energy look more affordable at those levels, too. 'Course, there's always coal, which is dirt cheap... Looks like about $30 per ton. By the way, at the present it is probably impossible to be a zero oil consumer since a very large portion of world crude production is used in other then power production. Nearly all plastics and a great deal of the fertilizer used are made from oil. I'm not 100% sure but I'd guess that much of your boat is actually made from oil. Yes, it did consume a bunch of oil -- 35 years ago. That really can't be considered current consumption. While we're out, our major energy consumption is probably for ice, though our food energy/oil bill is probably pretty big, but I have no way to calculate the components. I agree, it's probably next to impossible to not consume oil somewhere along the line, but it's possible to get very low. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Larry
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:44:10 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-11-22 06:23:18 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said: On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:14:35 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-11-21 20:39:15 -0500, Bruce in Bangkok said: Of course, oil is finite and the day will come when it is no longer available but I doubt that anyone knows with any certainty when that will occur. I agree and am personally working towards zero "oil" consumption (even bio-oil that I currently consume), but reiterate that some sources of "oil" will be available if, and only if, the cost of the raw materials rises to a realistic value. If "crude" rises to $200 per barrel, reserves will "expand" exponentially. I think I mentioned that there are many fields that for one reason or another were too expensive to produce at $60 dollar crude that are now viable. When the price hits $200 then more fields will be opened up. That was what I was referring to. I recall reading that there astounding amounts of oil in North America, just too expensive. We worked on a project for City Service who drilled two wells in the Java Sea; and found oil. The oil had a very high paraffin content and solidified at normal temperatures so City Service abandoned the field. In a discussion while they were closing down their operation I asked about the oil and was told that, "it would cosy too much to produce it but we won;t forget it and some day the price will go up and we'll come back". Alternate energy look more affordable at those levels, too. 'Course, there's always coal, which is dirt cheap... Looks like about $30 per ton. The Oil Shale "experiment worked but was too expensive at the time to produce oil. Perhaps next year? By the way, at the present it is probably impossible to be a zero oil consumer since a very large portion of world crude production is used in other then power production. Nearly all plastics and a great deal of the fertilizer used are made from oil. I'm not 100% sure but I'd guess that much of your boat is actually made from oil. Yes, it did consume a bunch of oil -- 35 years ago. That really can't be considered current consumption. While we're out, our major energy consumption is probably for ice, though our food energy/oil bill is probably pretty big, but I have no way to calculate the components. I agree, it's probably next to impossible to not consume oil somewhere along the line, but it's possible to get very low. I recently read an abstract of a paper that discussed alternate sources of feed stock for the plastics industry. It stated that: "Over 99% of all plastics are produced or derived from the major non-renewable energy sources – crude oil, natural gas, naptha and coal – which are used as both an energy and feedstock material in processing." While power and heating obviously consume massive amounts of oil the none power use is also huge. So when you put the new poly lines on the boat....... Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
Ping Larry
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 05:49:48 +0000, Larry wrote:
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : sounds rather strange as the Bangkok police's major use of motor vehicles in Bangkok is motorcycles. Not diesel trucks. Maybe they're going diesel motorcycles: http://www.dieselbike.net/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_motorcycle http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...-turbo-diesel- motorcycle/ Here's a Royal Enfield 1-cyl Diesel motorcycle....on the road! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bXcg...eature=related It sometimes approached.....well....1200 RPM!.,...(c; Larry As Will Rogers said, "all I know is what I read in the newspapers" but the King, who is highly revered, almost worshipped, has made several widely reported speeches about Thailand becoming a self supporting country, and this is an election year, it would make perfect sense for a government body such as the Police to say that they were using a non crude oil product and for a refinery to announce a non crude based fuel. But as I said, there is no evidence of any new fuel stations being built and little, if any talk about alternate fuels except for gasohol. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply) |
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