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Ping Bob - more on anchors
I can't find the original post which led me to this site. I found it
very interesting: http://www.rocna.com/press/press_0612_wm_ym_testing.pdf It discusses a very thorough test of many different anchors in several different conditions, in very controlled circumstances. Significant to our recent "discussions" :{)) they took core samples. I think you'd agree that those were markedly more informative than just taking something off the top like the local clip joint :{)) Back to our conversation, though, do you bend on each anchor before launch, or do you set one for the area you already know, and leave it attached? And, if like in the Chessie, what do you do when the bottom conditions change repeatedly (the alluvial area was where we were lots, but the last couple of hooks has been hard, and from what I could see, the intervening ones were sand, e.g.)? No, I've never been clamming, not enjoying eraser bits of any sort in my meals, but I do know what you mean about getting out of that stuff... This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down, in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s). However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR. These tests are more impressive to me than the ones held by Practical Sailor, and while I recognize the self-serving nature of the stuff at the end, I can't fault it. Like Spade, I suspect that surface area is far more important than weight in determining the effective holding of any anchor, and so, the differing weights are not as important in these tests. However, the failure of some of the usually highly rated anchors was significant to me... Still thinking, but what the heck - it's only money. What to do with one of the ones removed will be the challenge if I proceed... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Skip Gundlach wrote:
Still thinking, but what the heck - it's only money. What to do with one of the ones removed will be the challenge if I proceed... Craigslist? Stephen |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Oct 31, 6:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
I can't find the original post which led me to this site. I found it very interesting: http://www.rocna.com/press/press_0612_wm_ym_testing.pdf Good morning SKip: Thanks for the link. Ive read a few comments about the Rocna in the last year but put that learning low on my list. Until this morning............ interesting information! I want to give it a try. It discusses a very thorough test of many different anchors in several different conditions, in very controlled circumstances. Significant to our recent "discussions" :{)) they took core samples. I think you'd agree that those were markedly more informative than just taking something off the top like the local clip joint :{)) Agreed, and that is my biggest gripe.... people pulling comments out their ass with zero imperical support. DOnt get me wrong, personal experince is very useful information. But......... like all opinions every body has one. That is what I enjoy about Hinz (note the no T) Back to our conversation, though, do you bend on each anchor before launch, or do you set one for the area you already know, and leave it attached? If crossing a bar I have my anchor ready to depoy immediatly. I typically sail alone, and dont want to end up on the jetty if something goes wrong. If day sailing I keep it ready to drop. When uner way offshore for more that 24 hours I stow the anchor. I dont like stuff on deck that might break loose in snoty weather. These last few years ive been in the PNW. I lke to do things easy so I use what works reasonbly given the bottom. Around here that is 1) mud/ sand estuary with fast tide flow, 2) columbia river mud, 3) or upper columbia river which is mud or mud over basalt rock because of the up stream dam pool siltation. In the estuary if Im going to stay for a few days I use a Bahemian style set up. using mud/sand anchors (Fortress FX). when the tide changes it can really start to flow..... 3-5 k+ . Dont want to risk breaking out every 6 hours. (tide change) In the upper Columbia I use a CQR and all chain. NOt uncommon to set on 3-4' mud and then find basalt. (Oregon's most valuable mineral) The CQR does okay hooking in the rock. ONce I got fowled on an old car. But there are lots of "marinas" to use on the upper river. Usually I just tie up to an old grain barge. I only had one time when a tug skipper give me blast wanting pick up the barge.!!!!! Oregon also provides free docks along the river. And, if like in the Chessie, what do you do when the bottom conditions change repeatedly (the alluvial area was where we were lots, but the last couple of hooks has been hard, and from what I could see, the intervening ones were sand, e.g.)? This is where it is essential to know how to "read the river" Look at the chart see what that says for bottom type. But thatstoo general and usual 50 years old. Lots can happen in 50 years. For example.... FLOODS! Look for drainage channels that means speed and harder bottoms. as yuou said before slow water builds deltas.... ie soft mud/ silt Then look look at the suround land forms. Water, like air, flows in some rather predictable ways. When I wa 3-10 years old I use to build harbors/docks/jetties on the river bank of the Columbia. I didnt know it at the time but that little wood boat and my soup spoon taught me a lot about how jetteys, bays, currents, waves (provide by passing boats) rip-rap, finger and wing dykes effect water flow. I guess what im saying SKip is, go clamming..... get a bottle of wine and sit on the bank by yourself get drunk and watch the water durring a tide excahnge or two. Read some books and get drunk again while watching the water go by. Soon the secrects will be reveald..... Who knows, you might LOOK at a place you may park that boat and think, "humm a break water there, current goes that way, might get some silting in that area.... "I bet there might be a 3 foot hump about there." I've never been clamming, not enjoying eraser bits of any sort in my meals, but I do know what you mean about getting out of that stuff... the great thing about clams and oysters is that they come with "geen stuffing":) This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Its not the anchor...................... its the bottom! Dont put the cart in ront of the horse. Listen to the bottom and it will tell you what type of anchor to use. Oh, RE the belt problme...... more of the same is going to get you more of the same. How often do you change the belts on your car????? Why should it be any diffrent on your boat? Bob |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On 2007-10-31 10:46:40 -0400, Skip Gundlach said:
Do you bend on each anchor before launch, or do you set one for the area you already know, and leave it attached? And, if like in the Chessie, what do you do when the bottom conditions change repeatedly (the alluvial area was where we were lots, but the last couple of hooks has been hard, and from what I could see, the intervening ones were sand, e.g.) We always have the "general purpose" anchor -- for the area -- bent on for instant deployment. Some times, some anchor must go down *now*. If we could mount two at the same time, the other would be quite a bit different and also ready to drop if the first was insufficient. The standard configuration used to be a plow and a claw, but there are better anchors than both these days. One thing that maximizes success is to get *IN* to the anchorage early and test unfamiliar ones with a hand set, letting it set a bit by itself, then a moderate back-down. Rushing the set is a bad idea. Most protected Bay anchorages have a lovely mud bottom, but we have moved a couple of times when we found a bottom we couldn't get a good grip on. 50' can make the difference. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:46:40 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote: the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse I have a 120 lb Spade and like it a lot. It was expensive but I view it as cheap insurance. It's a lot to carry on the bow of a sailboat however, but if you've already got a full shot of chain, what the heck. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Its not theanchor...................... its the bottom! Dont put the
cart in ront of the horse. Listen to the bottom and it will tell you what type ofanchorto use. This old lore of choosing the anchor by the bottom type is very out dated. Anchors should work in all bottoms, within reason, and if they don't there's something wrong with them. (Exceptions naturally are solid rock or coral, or the same with an impossibly thin layer of sand/ mud over the top. There you're just depending on dead weight - if you need to anchor securely, go somewhere else.) MBM, in their own write-up of the YM testing linked to above, wrote in their conclusion: "The new generation of roll-bar type anchors were a revelation. You don't see many of these stowed on bow-rollers in the UK, but they were truly impressive performers - especially the New Zealand-made Rocna... They showed extreme holding power and versatility, giving the established Spade and Fortress a run for their money. The anchors that performed best in our tests were the ones that self orientated themselves on the seabed with an optimum penetrating angle. So are new designs the way to go? It seems we are getting closer to an anchor that will cope with all types of seabeds, a universal all-rounder. So the days of the long-distance boater who carries two or three different anchors to cope with a variety of conditions may well soon be numbered." This is very perceptive, although the testers did not test in a huge variety of seabeds (only three) so they don't know how right they are! The Rocna, and to some degree the Spade, are superb general purpose anchors, equally as good as any "specialist" anchor in any seabed and superior in most. It is not necessary to carry two or three specialist types, each only good for one type of bottom, maybe to never be used. This approach stems simply from the fundamental flaws of the old types, with each anchor in such a collection only present in order to address the flaws of the others. In the data from SAIL, the "max before releasing" figures of the Rocna are almost unbelievably higher than the remainder of the field. The Spade, to its credit, is second. Refer: http://www.rocna.com/distributable/r...nd-testing.pdf The reason for this is NOT that the competing anchors ALWAYS perform that much worse than the Rocna. Rather, it is a function of consistency. The data is the average of all pull tests, and while some of the others may have performed quite well, recording competitive "peaks", they were not reliable enough to perform to the same high average on all occasions. When you're anchoring in different sea-bed types, and you don't always know the bottom, and you just need the anchor to set dependably - then this consistency of performance is the most critical characteristic. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Nov 1, 3:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down, in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s). However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR. I'm not sure I read this right Skip, the Rocna is definitely cheaper than a CQR on a weight-for-weight basis, and far far better value on a performance for $ basis. The CQR 60lb from West Marine online at the moment is: "Sale $1,075.00 USD (Save $320.00 USD)" The Rocna 25 (55lb) from West is $800.00 USD, the 33 (73lb) is $900.00 USD, and even the 15 or 20 Kg could be expected to out-perform the 60lb (27Kg) plow... A lot of pricing comparisons these days inevitably come from looking at cheap knock-offs, which flood the market from both domestic and Asian manufacturers. It's a lowest common denominator thing. The genuine CQR, genuine Bruce, Spade, and Rocna are fairly equal in one sense: quality of build - and comparisons of value need to be undertaken like-for-like. Their prices generally reflect the true cost of a decent anchor. There are lots of things from a construction and production point of view that could be done to make the Rocna cheaper, but then it wouldn't be top quality! If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason... How much is your boat worth? |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Nov 1, 8:04 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 1, 3:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote: This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down, in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s). However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR. I'm not sure I read this right Skip, the Rocna is definitely cheaper than a CQR on a weight-for-weight basis, and far far better value on a performance for $ basis. The CQR 60lb from West Marine online at the moment is: "Sale $1,075.00 USD (Save $320.00 USD)" The Rocna 25 (55lb) from West is $800.00 USD, the 33 (73lb) is $900.00 USD, and even the 15 or 20 Kg could be expected to out-perform the 60lb (27Kg) plow... A lot of pricing comparisons these days inevitably come from looking at cheap knock-offs, which flood the market from both domestic and Asian manufacturers. It's a lowest common denominator thing. The genuine CQR, genuine Bruce, Spade, and Rocna are fairly equal in one sense: quality of build - and comparisons of value need to be undertaken like-for-like. Their prices generally reflect the true cost of a decent anchor. There are lots of things from a construction and production point of view that could be done to make the Rocna cheaper, but then it wouldn't be top quality! If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason... How much is your boat worth? Thanks, Craig, for the commentary. I had compared it to a Delta, the first "new" anchor I bought. I was successful in buying my replacement 75# CQR for 375 - the 65 I lost I paid 300 for. No, I didn't buy them at West.. I actively considered the Rocna and Spade - and didn't buy the Spade because I'd have had to go to the 120 (not pounds, surface area), and I couldn't afford it.. I don't dispute the cost nor the value. Just my hemorrhaging pocketbook. If you'll ship me an equivalent to a Delta or CQR in the 60-75 (the ones on the bow, now) or so pound range for $500 (or, could I buy it at West on my Port Card for that?), I'd mount it. If you followed the thread where Bob was trying to eat my lunch, my 40k# boat with all that windage to boot, likely would need more than the usually recommended anchors in a 45' hull. It's why I over sized the Delta, and double over sized the CQR secondary. What would be the recommended Rocna anchor? Thanks... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Nov 1, 8:04 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 1, 3:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote: This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down, in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s). However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR. I'm not sure I read this right Skip, the Rocna is definitely cheaper than a CQR on a weight-for-weight basis, and far far better value on a performance for $ basis. The CQR 60lb from West Marine online at the moment is: "Sale $1,075.00 USD (Save $320.00 USD)" The Rocna 25 (55lb) from West is $800.00 USD, the 33 (73lb) is $900.00 USD, and even the 15 or 20 Kg could be expected to out-perform the 60lb (27Kg) plow... A lot of pricing comparisons these days inevitably come from looking at cheap knock-offs, which flood the market from both domestic and Asian manufacturers. It's a lowest common denominator thing. The genuine CQR, genuine Bruce, Spade, and Rocna are fairly equal in one sense: quality of build - and comparisons of value need to be undertaken like-for-like. Their prices generally reflect the true cost of a decent anchor. There are lots of things from a construction and production point of view that could be done to make the Rocna cheaper, but then it wouldn't be top quality! If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason... How much is your boat worth? Thanks, Craig, for the commentary. I had compared it to a Delta, the first "new" anchor I bought. I was successful in buying my replacement 75# CQR for 375 - the 65 I lost I paid 300 for. No, I didn't buy them at West.. I actively considered the Rocna and Spade - and didn't buy the Spade because I'd have had to go to the 120 (not pounds, surface area), and I couldn't afford it.. I don't dispute the cost nor the value. Just my hemorrhaging pocketbook. If you'll ship me an equivalent to a Delta or CQR in the 60-75 (the ones on the bow, now) or so pound range for $500 (or, could I buy it at West on my Port Card for that?), I'd mount it. If you followed the thread where Bob was trying to eat my lunch, my 40k# boat with all that windage to boot, likely would need more than the usually recommended anchors in a 45' hull. It's why I over sized the Delta, and double over sized the CQR secondary. What would be the recommended Rocna anchor? Thanks... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:17:08 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote: I don't dispute the cost nor the value. Just my hemorrhaging pocketbook. I can relate to that. On the other hand a good anchor is really cheap insurance, and worth a lot in peace of mind. You and Lydia are anchoring out much of the time and saving a great deal in marina dockage as a benefit. On the other hand you've already been hit with a couple of night time squalls, and I can guarantee that you'll see more. It's part of the game, happens all the time. Think about how much it will cost if you drag anchor and do serious damage to your boat, or worse yet, do serious damage to someone elses boat. If you damage another boat in some circumstances, you could lose the use of your own while the litiation proceeds. My advice, FWIW, is to get the best and biggest anchor that you can handle. You'll never regret it, especially when that wind is howling outside and your home is swinging on the end of a small piece of metal. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:04:29 -0700, "
wrote: On Nov 1, 3:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote: This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down, in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s). However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat, being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR. I'm not sure I read this right Skip, the Rocna is definitely cheaper than a CQR on a weight-for-weight basis, and far far better value on a performance for $ basis. The CQR 60lb from West Marine online at the moment is: "Sale $1,075.00 USD (Save $320.00 USD)" The Rocna 25 (55lb) from West is $800.00 USD, the 33 (73lb) is $900.00 USD, and even the 15 or 20 Kg could be expected to out-perform the 60lb (27Kg) plow... A lot of pricing comparisons these days inevitably come from looking at cheap knock-offs, which flood the market from both domestic and Asian manufacturers. It's a lowest common denominator thing. The genuine CQR, genuine Bruce, Spade, and Rocna are fairly equal in one sense: quality of build - and comparisons of value need to be undertaken like-for-like. Their prices generally reflect the true cost of a decent anchor. There are lots of things from a construction and production point of view that could be done to make the Rocna cheaper, but then it wouldn't be top quality! If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason... How much is your boat worth? Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:37:20 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. Because the answers with rode questions are relatively clear cut, but not so with anchors because there are many more options and many more variables. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Breaking strength is not always the issue, rather it is Safe Working Load, abrasion resistance and shock absorption. Kevlar has low stretch, poor abrasion resistance, and is also averse to splicing and tight radius turns. Poor choice in my opinion. Chain has poor (no) stretch but good abrasion resistance. Nylon has good shock absorption and good strength but poor abrasion resistance. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. And that is correct. Catenary virtually disappears after the chain load exceeds 1,000 to 2,000 pounds. That is about the force that we generate when backing down with both engines at idle speed to verify that the anchor is set (one advantage of a power boat with big props). So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? I don't think it gets ignored, it's just that the choices are limited and more clear cut. My personal choice is 3/8ths HT chain (G40) which has a safe working load (SWL) of about 5,500 lbs and a breaking strength over 20,000 lbs. I combine that with a 7/8ths nylon snubber which has about the same SWL and breaking strength. The nylon gives shock absorption and can be chafe protected at the hawse pipe. It also takes the strain off of the bow pulpit and lowers the angle of pull. In a serious storm I rig a second nylon snubber line for backup. Most of the serious cruisers that we see are using something similar. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
"Wayne.B" from the pulpit said: On the other hand a good anchor is really cheap insurance, and worth a lot in peace of mind. You and Lydia are anchoring out much of the time and saving a great deal in marina dockage as a benefit. On the other hand you've already been hit with a couple of night time squalls, and I can guarantee that you'll see more. It's part of the game, happens all the time. Think about how much it will cost if you drag anchor and do serious damage to your boat, or worse yet, do serious damage to someone elses boat. If you damage another boat in some circumstances, you could lose the use of your own while the litiation proceeds. My advice, FWIW, is to get the best and biggest anchor that you can handle. You'll never regret it, especially when that wind is howling outside and your home is swinging on the end of a small piece of metal. Amen brother, Amen Find the biggest anchor you can afford, then get the next largest size. As much chain as you can carry and a powered windlass so you won't be tempted to stay put when you shouldn't simply because resetting the anchor is such a PITA because you don't have a powered windlass. Lew |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. If you are going to use nylon rode in combination with chain, then the nylon serves as a spring, stretching with increased load. Basic reason to select 3-strand nylon of modest size to allow for this stretch. .. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? That's why snubbers exist when using all chain rode. A hank of 3-strand nylon with a chain hook in one end and the other secured around the mast will accomplish this function. Lew |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
I don't dispute the cost nor the value. Just my hemorrhaging
pocketbook. If you'll ship me an equivalent to a Delta or CQR in the 60-75 (the ones on the bow, now) or so pound range for $500 (or, could I buy it at West on my Port Card for that?), I'd mount it. Try your Port Card, I can't speak for West sorry. If you followed the thread where Bob was trying to eat my lunch, my 40k# boat with all that windage to boot, likely would need more than the usually recommended anchors in a 45' hull. It's why I over sized the Delta, and double over sized the CQR secondary. What would be the recommended Rocna anchor? Rocna 33. (73lb). Here's the complication: recommendations are very conservative. That's intended to provide you with an anchor adequate for use in all conditions. You can't compare to Lewmar guides etc. I.e. 'forget the "go one size up" mantra, Rocna already did that for you'. Calculations consider 50 knots wind in exposed surge and poor holding, and anchors sized officially have seen their boats through some pretty extreme weather, not least some mad nuts who didn't run for port in the end-of-winter storm that came through New Zealand this year. 80 knots... no problem... So it's about value. The Rocna 25 or even 20 would out-perform either of the two on your bow. The weight is not the defining property. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
For what its worth:
I bought a Rocna last year from Suncoast marine in Canada. (http://www.suncoastmarine.ca/) They shipped it to my marina and it arrived right on schedule. They even tried to talk me down a size. I thought the cost was reasonable and the service was good. I only dropped the hook once since. Docking in a blow I wrapped my prop and was consequently heading heading out the harbour unintentionally. The anchor caught on some old fishing cable and I nearly ripped the windlass out getting it free. In Newfoundland the locals commonly dumped old fishing gear in the harbour. The previous year I drug once and brought up all kinds of interesting crap: some 2" poly line and what looked like an old sail except it had a printed pattern. So, for me and my conditions, it is important that I have an anchor I can unfoul easily. Unfortunately, no comment on holding power. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:50:42 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Read it, about the same thing that Hylas says in excruciating detail. I'm probably some what jaded with the discussion of anchors but the N.Z. company sites seem, to me, to be advertizing written in the format of a scientific test. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Hi, Craig, Bruce, Wayne, Lew, Bob, et. al.,
On chain and other rode, one of my bow anchors is all 5/16HT G40 chain - but I use a nylon snubber. Practically speaking, so's the other, but if I get past 125', the other 175' is 3/4" MegaBraid, nylon stretchier than 3-strand. My storm bags have 30' of 3/8 BBB and the rest the same MegaBraid. My spares lines (either for extending or tying off) include several hundred feet of 3-strand 5/8, the original rodes when we got the boat (the other parts being the above 3/8BBB). On anchoring, we do, indeed, have a windlass - I use the Capstan for my elevator rides to the top in a chair - and I have no problem whatsoever in starting over if I'm not happy with my set. In this short (only about 17 weeks so far, with waaaaay too many nights at a dock or ball) trip, I've not only raised and lowered (about 5 times is my limit before I go somewhere else) repetitively many times, I've moved to another spot more than a half dozen times. I have very high standards for what I consider "set" and, like another here, am very fussy and time-consumptive in getting it down (I believe I've described my modus in another thread). However, if I see *any* current (in a slack water environment, of course) going past the bar- tight chain when I'm backing, hard, I redo it... On size of anchor, that's what I did - chose the best anchor at the time, and went up one size (the 55 Delta and at the time, a 65 CQR replaced my stolen 45 CQR - and the 45 lookalike [which maker I forget] is now knocked down and spare in the lazarette); the second CQR replacement, because it was only another 50 or so bux, I went to *2* sizes up. As I commented when I started this thread, however, because I'd not seen any testing that *I* thought was meaningful (several PS reports over several years didn't do the same level of testing, I didn't think), I hadn't considered the Rocna other than on a superficial level (I had considered the Spade, but they don't have an intermediate one between the 80 and 120, the likely size needed for my boat). This article has me reconsidering. However, having, now, a considerable investment in new anchors aboard, this would be a duplicate purchase. After lots of research and literal search, I was able to find inexpensive means of buying the first ones. I don't think I'll have that luxury on the Rocna (and I'm not interested in the knockoff). However, I'm very willing to be proven wrong :{)) As I commented, should I do that, I'll have to rethink my anchor management. I don't have a readily available spot to put the Delta, the likely removal if I go to a Rocna. But, as it's the only one where I had to pay "retail" (Port Supply), I'm not very happy about the thought of giving it away - and since it's one of the proven designs, I guess I'd want to have it aboard - I just don't know where. L8R Skip PS Bob - I noted the no "t" :{)) Midway through the newest version of HWS Coles/updater... PPS Wayne, what size (the number Spade assigns) is a 120# with them? Gotta be in the 5 or more hundred range?? See above about my choice problems... Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it come true. You may have to work for it however." (and) "There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts." (Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ... "Wayne.B" from the pulpit said: On the other hand a good anchor is really cheap insurance, and worth a lot in peace of mind. You and Lydia are anchoring out much of the time and saving a great deal in marina dockage as a benefit. On the other hand you've already been hit with a couple of night time squalls, and I can guarantee that you'll see more. It's part of the game, happens all the time. Think about how much it will cost if you drag anchor and do serious damage to your boat, or worse yet, do serious damage to someone elses boat. If you damage another boat in some circumstances, you could lose the use of your own while the litiation proceeds. My advice, FWIW, is to get the best and biggest anchor that you can handle. You'll never regret it, especially when that wind is howling outside and your home is swinging on the end of a small piece of metal. Amen brother, Amen Find the biggest anchor you can afford, then get the next largest size. As much chain as you can carry and a powered windlass so you won't be tempted to stay put when you shouldn't simply because resetting the anchor is such a PITA because you don't have a powered windlass. Lew That's kinda how I think. I am picky, picky, picky about choosing where to anchor and carefully setting my anchor. I do think, however, that no anchor ever drug because it was too large! Often people seem proud of how tiny an anchor they can get away with...and good on 'em (if they're downwind of me). I like big anchors & lots of chain. Glenn. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
: On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:50:42 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote in m: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? Bruce-in-Bangkok There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Read it, about the same thing that Hylas says in excruciating detail. I'm probably some what jaded with the discussion of anchors but the N.Z. company sites seem, to me, to be advertizing written in the format of a scientific test. Bruce-in-Bangkok Bruce, I'd say that you are a bit jaded on this one. I went back and looked at the article and only found a brief mention of Rocna's products where they were quoted a holding force. The rest of the article has nothing to do with Rocna and can be applied to any anchor. I personally like to see that a company who produces anchors has a good understanding of the physics. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 03:39:06 -0700, "
wrote: So it's about value. The Rocna 25 or even 20 would out-perform either of the two on your bow. The weight is not the defining property. True but weight helps to ensure a faster set or reset in adverse conditions. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 13:47:41 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote: PPS Wayne, what size (the number Spade assigns) is a 120# with them? Gotta be in the 5 or more hundred range?? See above about my choice problems... http://www.spade-anchor-us.com/How_t..._to_order.html The 120 pound Spade is called the S200. I had mine on order with Glenn Ashmore for 3 or 4 months before I could get one. That may be overkill for your boat unless you upgrade to 3/8ths HT chain. There's not much point to buying more anchor than your rode can hold. I'm thinking that you'd be happy (and more in balance with your chain) with a S140 at 66 lbs. S140s may be also be easier to get. These Rocnas look impressive also but I have no first hand experience with them. We now have about 400 days of actual on-the-water cruising experience with the 120# Spade and it is one great anchor. For what it's worth I sold my old Delta. It was OK about 95% of the time but those other 5% were becoming worisome. I'm now carrying a 66# Bruce, 45# Spade and a 30# Danforth as spares. That's overkill of course but I've got the room to store them, the Bruce was on the boat when I bought it, and the 45# Spade was from my old boat. I'm thinking about getting a really large Fortress to be used only as an ultimate storm anchor where there would be plenty of opportunity to get it set well in advance. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:11:59 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:50:42 -0500, Geoff Schultz wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote in : Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? Bruce-in-Bangkok There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org Read it, about the same thing that Hylas says in excruciating detail. I'm probably some what jaded with the discussion of anchors but the N.Z. company sites seem, to me, to be advertizing written in the format of a scientific test. Bruce-in-Bangkok Bruce, I'd say that you are a bit jaded on this one. I went back and looked at the article and only found a brief mention of Rocna's products where they were quoted a holding force. The rest of the article has nothing to do with Rocna and can be applied to any anchor. I personally like to see that a company who produces anchors has a good understanding of the physics. -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org I wasn't referring to a specific N.Z. site, but read several for the Rocna, they have got one that is mainly stabbing the other company that makes a similar anchor. They have references to anchoring "north of the dock" and "south of the dock" hardly a scientific specification. I'd prefer to change the last sentence in your message to read, "I personally like to see that a company who designed an anchors has a good understanding of the physics." as not all anchors are manufactured by people who design them. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On 2007-11-02 11:03:29 -0400, "Glenn \(s/v Seawing\)"
said: I like big anchors & lots of chain. And lots of scope! If I expect a blow, I'm not against having 10:1 scope. Since I stick to the Chesapeake and rarely anchor in more than 10', some consider our 250' of rode on the bow excessive. Then there was the time we couldn't get anywhere shallower than 30' and the squall was impressive, even for the Bay. We stayed put, others dragged. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php -- Geoff www.GeoffSchultz.org And another at http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/ -- JimB Google 'jimb sail' or go www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com Compares Cruise areas of Europe |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Nov 3, 3:14 am, "JimB" wrote:
And another athttp://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/ -- JimB Hi, thanks for his link................... I misplaced last year. VERY HELPFUL ! ! ! ! http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/ro...ces/forces.htm Loads of information Bob |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. If you are going to use nylon rode in combination with chain, then the nylon serves as a spring, stretching with increased load. Basic reason to select 3-strand nylon of modest size to allow for this stretch. . Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? That's why snubbers exist when using all chain rode. A hank of 3-strand nylon with a chain hook in one end and the other secured around the mast will accomplish this function. Lew I've given up on chain hooks, they come loose more often than not. I use a rolling hitch instead. Jim. |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 15:12:33 -0500, Jim wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote: Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode. For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs. If you are going to use nylon rode in combination with chain, then the nylon serves as a spring, stretching with increased load. Basic reason to select 3-strand nylon of modest size to allow for this stretch. . Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade' anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30 knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone (Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave shock is transmitted directly to the anchor. So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches the anchor to the boat? That's why snubbers exist when using all chain rode. A hank of 3-strand nylon with a chain hook in one end and the other secured around the mast will accomplish this function. Lew I've given up on chain hooks, they come loose more often than not. I use a rolling hitch instead. Jim. I modify a grab hook by tack welding a small ring to the tip of the claw and put a wire tie, or piece of small stuff around the shank and through the ring. Just cut it off when pulling up the anchor. Keeps the hook from coming loose. Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap) |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
On Oct 31, 6:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
Hey All: Found this info regarding CHAIN to LINE splice. The author says taper splice can give 85%+ connection. Would ya all read it over and referee it for me. I am still skeptical of this connections under actual anchoring stormy conditions. i.e. jerk n yank. ON the other hand, maybe its time to step into the twenty first century..... http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...hainsplice.htm Bob |
Ping Bob - more on anchors
Bob wrote:
.... Would ya all read it over and referee it for me. I am still skeptical of this connections under actual anchoring stormy conditions. i.e. jerk n yank. ON the other hand, maybe its time to step into the twenty first century..... http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...hainsplice.htm I've used this technique since this report came out. I've used the splice as described, its pretty straight forward. Every time I anchor I pause as the splice goes out for a quick inspection, and I've never seen any wear, not has there been a problem going through the gypsy. I use 50 feet of chain, which I believe is sufficient to reap most of the benefits of chain, but the weight of the ground tackle is low enough that it would not be too hard to recover without a windlass, nor does it weigh down the bow of my catamaran. The few time I've had trouble setting would not have been helped by more chain because they involved soft mud or grass. |
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