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Who's at fault here
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Who's at fault here
On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. -- Jere Lull Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Who's at fault here
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:11:31 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:
On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. Probably so but it is an interesting situation, apparently between two boats of significantly different speed. I see that sort of thing quite often from the perspective of our relatively slow trawler and a fast moving boat that is highly maneuverable. It is almost as though the larger slower boat is stopped, and entirely up to the faster more maneuverable boat to avoid the collision regardless of the technicalities involved. Basically a faster boat has the ability to maneuver into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable, and it almost looks to me as though that may have been involved in this incident. That would put them at fault of course, even though approaching from the starboard side of the larger boat. |
Who's at fault here
Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led
up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. \ Wayne.B wrote in : On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:11:31 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. Probably so but it is an interesting situation, apparently between two boats of significantly different speed. I see that sort of thing quite often from the perspective of our relatively slow trawler and a fast moving boat that is highly maneuverable. It is almost as though the larger slower boat is stopped, and entirely up to the faster more maneuverable boat to avoid the collision regardless of the technicalities involved. Basically a faster boat has the ability to maneuver into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable, and it almost looks to me as though that may have been involved in this incident. That would put them at fault of course, even though approaching from the starboard side of the larger boat. |
Who's at fault here
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70... Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. \ Wayne.B wrote in : On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:11:31 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. Probably so but it is an interesting situation, apparently between two boats of significantly different speed. I see that sort of thing quite often from the perspective of our relatively slow trawler and a fast moving boat that is highly maneuverable. It is almost as though the larger slower boat is stopped, and entirely up to the faster more maneuverable boat to avoid the collision regardless of the technicalities involved. Basically a faster boat has the ability to maneuver into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable, and it almost looks to me as though that may have been involved in this incident. That would put them at fault of course, even though approaching from the starboard side of the larger boat. It didn't quite look like head-to-head. It looked like a crossing situation somewhat. The boat on the right is right, but both are at fault. Both boats should have turned to starboard. I don't see how you can say the faster boat would have or wouldn't have the ability to maneuver. Looks like plenty of sea room to me for both boats. Idiots.... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Who's at fault here
Joe wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 The vessel from which the footage was taken was in this instance the "give way vessel" under both Inland and International Rules. It almost appears that this vessel had no one at the helm and was proceeding on autopilot and without a lookout, but that's speculation. Nowadays when I see situations like this, involving at least one commercial vessel, and endangering so many passengers, I am no longer surprised. This happens all too often and is quite preventable. -- Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare |
Who's at fault here
"Joe" wrote in message oups.com... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 The vessel in the foreground is *primarily* at fault because he was the give-way vessel having the other on his starboard bow. He should have turned to starboard and passed to the rear of the vessel in the background. But, both are at partial fault for a number of reasons. Neither sounded any warnings and neither took evasive action. It looks like a case where both pilots were asleep at the wheel. Wilbur Hubbard |
Who's at fault here
"otnmbrd" wrote in message .70... Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. \ Wayne.B wrote in : On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:11:31 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. Probably so but it is an interesting situation, apparently between two boats of significantly different speed. I see that sort of thing quite often from the perspective of our relatively slow trawler and a fast moving boat that is highly maneuverable. It is almost as though the larger slower boat is stopped, and entirely up to the faster more maneuverable boat to avoid the collision regardless of the technicalities involved. Basically a faster boat has the ability to maneuver into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable, and it almost looks to me as though that may have been involved in this incident. That would put them at fault of course, even though approaching from the starboard side of the larger boat. How can a professional captain be so uninformed? That wasn't a head-to-head situation. It's clearly a crossing situation. Look at the relative angles. Duh! Wilbur Hubbard |
Who's at fault here
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "otnmbrd" wrote in message .70... Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. \ Wayne.B wrote in : On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:11:31 GMT, Jere Lull wrote: On 2007-10-17 14:47:31 -0400, Joe said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 BOTH boats. Probably so but it is an interesting situation, apparently between two boats of significantly different speed. I see that sort of thing quite often from the perspective of our relatively slow trawler and a fast moving boat that is highly maneuverable. It is almost as though the larger slower boat is stopped, and entirely up to the faster more maneuverable boat to avoid the collision regardless of the technicalities involved. Basically a faster boat has the ability to maneuver into a situation where a collision becomes unavoidable, and it almost looks to me as though that may have been involved in this incident. That would put them at fault of course, even though approaching from the starboard side of the larger boat. It didn't quite look like head-to-head. It looked like a crossing situation somewhat. The boat on the right is right, but both are at fault. Both boats should have turned to starboard. I don't see how you can say the faster boat would have or wouldn't have the ability to maneuver. Looks like plenty of sea room to me for both boats. Somebody slap me but I agree with this post. Wilbur Hubbard |
Who's at fault here
On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, otnmbrd wrote:
Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. Seems the guy on the small boat did a quick half turn to port then decides to stay on course, and the big boat is clueless. The shaking of a fist in the air must be a local custom on the big boat Clowns on auto pilots IMO. At the start you notice there is a fleet of small vessels heading out all following the exact course. I bet it's an area with heavy regular crossing situations. Both Captains assuming the other will give way, until it's to late. Did you notice the guy on the pulpit of the small boat? He's out there in the collision. Only person you see who may have been hurt was the person standing to port of the helmsman on the small boat as he or she flys forward. Hope no one was below on the small boat forward or in either engine room. Joe |
Who's at fault here
Joe wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 the boat from which the pix were taken based on all rules I know of. Possible that this was on a lake in some nation with different rules. |
Who's at fault here
"Capt. JG" wrote in
: It didn't quite look like head-to-head. It looked like a crossing situation somewhat. The boat on the right is right, but both are at fault. Both boats should have turned to starboard. I don't see how you can say the faster boat would have or wouldn't have the ability to maneuver. Looks like plenty of sea room to me for both boats. Idiots.... It's the "nearly so" part of that statement that gets a lot of people in trouble. Yes, at the time of this video, the boat taking the video should have come right, but they are so close to that "nearly so" that I wonder about the perspective leading up to this. BG not sure I'm explaining this correctly |
Who's at fault here
On Oct 18, 11:48 am, Paul Cassel
wrote: Joe wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 the boat from which the pix were taken based on all rules I know of. Possible that this was on a lake in some nation with different rules. I like this one better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqKpnU8sCE |
Who's at fault here
"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. .. Joe wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 the boat from which the pix were taken based on all rules I know of. Possible that this was on a lake in some nation with different rules. To me, it looks like the smaller boat (hitee), Prince Wales(?), was flying a Dutch flag. I tried to listen to the voices, but couldn't make out the language. Leanne |
Who's at fault here
"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.70... "Capt. JG" wrote in : It didn't quite look like head-to-head. It looked like a crossing situation somewhat. The boat on the right is right, but both are at fault. Both boats should have turned to starboard. I don't see how you can say the faster boat would have or wouldn't have the ability to maneuver. Looks like plenty of sea room to me for both boats. Idiots.... It's the "nearly so" part of that statement that gets a lot of people in trouble. Yes, at the time of this video, the boat taking the video should have come right, but they are so close to that "nearly so" that I wonder about the perspective leading up to this. BG not sure I'm explaining this correctly I get it... seems like unless we're really missing a lot of the perspective, the boat taking the vid should have changed taken evasive action well before getting into this spot. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Who's at fault here
"tom" wrote in message
ups.com... On Oct 18, 11:48 am, Paul Cassel wrote: Joe wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hrUSs9ndA&NR=1 the boat from which the pix were taken based on all rules I know of. Possible that this was on a lake in some nation with different rules. I like this one better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqKpnU8sCE The people on the ferry summed it up nicely. BG -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Who's at fault here
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:00:02 -0700, Joe wrote:
On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, otnmbrd wrote: Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. Seems the guy on the small boat did a quick half turn to port then decides to stay on course, and the big boat is clueless. The shaking of a fist in the air must be a local custom on the big boat Clowns on auto pilots IMO. At the start you notice there is a fleet of small vessels heading out all following the exact course. I bet it's an area with heavy regular crossing situations. Both Captains assuming the other will give way, until it's to late. I've really noticed this the last few years, now that everyone has GPS chart plotters and autopilot. Despite a whole ocean to spread out into, we're all traveling along the same "ant lines" -- drawn between the same waypoints on the same popular routes. The close calls are becoming more frequent, and closer. Years ago we weren't shaving our waypoints so closely, or steering as straight. Unfortunately some of the worst games of "chicken" that I've seen were by skippers of really large powerboats, who were probably professional captains. I wish I had video to send to the Coast Guard. Most people do play it safe though. Matt O. |
Who's at fault here
"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message g... On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:00:02 -0700, Joe wrote: On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, otnmbrd wrote: Naturally the video is only of the last moments so we can't see what led up to the collision, but if this was a normal head to head or nearly so they both screwed up in many ways.... especially the boat the video was being shot from. Seems the guy on the small boat did a quick half turn to port then decides to stay on course, and the big boat is clueless. The shaking of a fist in the air must be a local custom on the big boat Clowns on auto pilots IMO. At the start you notice there is a fleet of small vessels heading out all following the exact course. I bet it's an area with heavy regular crossing situations. Both Captains assuming the other will give way, until it's to late. I've really noticed this the last few years, now that everyone has GPS chart plotters and autopilot. Despite a whole ocean to spread out into, we're all traveling along the same "ant lines" -- drawn between the same waypoints on the same popular routes. The close calls are becoming more frequent, and closer. Years ago we weren't shaving our waypoints so closely, or steering as straight. Unfortunately some of the worst games of "chicken" that I've seen were by skippers of really large powerboats, who were probably professional captains. I wish I had video to send to the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard? Just what are THEY gonna do about it? They're out there issuing licenses to admitted illegal recreational drug abusers so I guess they don't care a whole lot about operational safety in the first place. Greg |
Who's at fault here
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:59:04 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: I get it... seems like unless we're really missing a lot of the perspective, the boat taking the vid should have changed taken evasive action well before getting into this spot. Yes, unless the smaller, faster boat maneuvered into an untenable situation. The bigger boat (where the video was taken) can not stop on a dime or turn sharply. If the small boat entered that danger zone, they share the blame at the very least. It would be a somewhat similar situation if you approached a tug and barge from the starboard side at the last minute. That was the basis for my original comment stating that faster more maneuverable boat has some obligation not to put themselves into harms way. |
Who's at fault here
Wayne.B wrote in
: On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:59:04 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: I get it... seems like unless we're really missing a lot of the perspective, the boat taking the vid should have changed taken evasive action well before getting into this spot. Yes, unless the smaller, faster boat maneuvered into an untenable situation. The bigger boat (where the video was taken) can not stop on a dime or turn sharply. If the small boat entered that danger zone, they share the blame at the very least. It would be a somewhat similar situation if you approached a tug and barge from the starboard side at the last minute. That was the basis for my original comment stating that faster more maneuverable boat has some obligation not to put themselves into harms way. I can't really agree with you here. Speed and maneuverability are not factors under the Rules in the case we are looking at. First off, though the vessel the video was shot from is definitely larger, from what we see we cannot say what it's potential maneuverability is/was versus the smaller boat..... Secondly, if your boat is slower less maneuverable, then you should take action sooner, to avoid, and fast or slow, you have that obligation not to put yourself in harm's way. A. My main point is that video's such as this are generally too short to give enough background info to make a good decision as to what happened. B. From experience, the head to head or nearly so situation can frequently get out of hand and cause collisions due to slight visual perception differences and wrong direction turns to avoid ( the video shows a small angle crossing situation but this could have been something else earlier) C. BG In reality....lumbering big ship versus twin screw Donzi..... Donzi.....get the hell outa the way! (the Rules purist will have a ball with that statement) |
Who's at fault here
Gregory Hall wrote:
The Coast Guard? Just what are THEY gonna do about it? They're out there issuing licenses to admitted illegal recreational drug abusers so I guess they don't care a whole lot about operational safety in the first place. this is getting really boring, can't you dream up something more amusing? Cheers Marty ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------ Want to have instant messaging, and chat rooms, and discussion groups for your local users or business, you need dbabble! -- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_dbabble.htm ---- |
Who's at fault here
"otnmbrd" wrote in message .70... Wayne.B wrote in : On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:59:04 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: I get it... seems like unless we're really missing a lot of the perspective, the boat taking the vid should have changed taken evasive action well before getting into this spot. Yes, unless the smaller, faster boat maneuvered into an untenable situation. The bigger boat (where the video was taken) can not stop on a dime or turn sharply. If the small boat entered that danger zone, they share the blame at the very least. It would be a somewhat similar situation if you approached a tug and barge from the starboard side at the last minute. That was the basis for my original comment stating that faster more maneuverable boat has some obligation not to put themselves into harms way. I can't really agree with you here. Speed and maneuverability are not factors under the Rules in the case we are looking at. First off, though the vessel the video was shot from is definitely larger, from what we see we cannot say what it's potential maneuverability is/was versus the smaller boat..... Secondly, if your boat is slower less maneuverable, then you should take action sooner, to avoid, and fast or slow, you have that obligation not to put yourself in harm's way. A. My main point is that video's such as this are generally too short to give enough background info to make a good decision as to what happened. B. From experience, the head to head or nearly so situation can frequently get out of hand and cause collisions due to slight visual perception differences and wrong direction turns to avoid ( the video shows a small angle crossing situation but this could have been something else earlier) C. BG In reality....lumbering big ship versus twin screw Donzi..... Donzi.....get the hell outa the way! (the Rules purist will have a ball with that statement) Your conclusion is simplistic and unrealistic. These are the facts: 1) both vessels share some part of the blame for the collision as is always the case anytime two vessels collide. 2) the greater portion of the blame (90%) lies with the larger vessel in the foreground. This was the give-way vessel and he should never have allowed that close quarters situation to take place. A simple VERY SMALL turn of the wheel to starboard BEFORE the close quarters situation occurred would have avoided the close quarters situation and no collision would have occurred. 3) the reason the smaller vessel shares some share of the blame is he failed to take appropriate action to avoid a collision when it became apparent the larger vessel was not taking the action required of it by the rules. I'm always happy to educate a so-called professional who's view of the world is warped because he thinks "might makes right" as evidenced by that ignorant last statement that the little boat get the hell out of the way of the larger boat. Sorry, but the rules don't allow that. The rules REQUIRE the stand-on vessel to maintain course and speed until it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is causing a close quarters situation and a danger of collision exists. Then and only then is the stand on vessel required to take action to avoid a collision. Now, run along and review the Rules of the Road. It looks like you need to brush up. Wilbur Hubbard |
Who's at fault here
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:4718ed10
: Your conclusion is simplistic and unrealistic. These are the facts: 1) both vessels share some part of the blame for the collision as is always the case anytime two vessels collide. 2) the greater portion of the blame (90%) lies with the larger vessel in the foreground. This was the give-way vessel and he should never have allowed that close quarters situation to take place. A simple VERY SMALL turn of the wheel to starboard BEFORE the close quarters situation occurred would have avoided the close quarters situation and no collision would have occurred. 3) the reason the smaller vessel shares some share of the blame is he failed to take appropriate action to avoid a collision when it became apparent the larger vessel was not taking the action required of it by the rules. I'm always happy to educate a so-called professional who's view of the world is warped because he thinks "might makes right" as evidenced by that ignorant last statement that the little boat get the hell out of the way of the larger boat. Sorry, but the rules don't allow that. The rules REQUIRE the stand-on vessel to maintain course and speed until it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is causing a close quarters situation and a danger of collision exists. Then and only then is the stand on vessel required to take action to avoid a collision. Now, run along and review the Rules of the Road. It looks like you need to brush up. Wilbur Hubbard You need to read Rule 17 again and learn to look futher than the tip of your nose when viewing a video. |
Who's at fault here
"otnmbrd" wrote in message .70... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:4718ed10 : Your conclusion is simplistic and unrealistic. These are the facts: 1) both vessels share some part of the blame for the collision as is always the case anytime two vessels collide. 2) the greater portion of the blame (90%) lies with the larger vessel in the foreground. This was the give-way vessel and he should never have allowed that close quarters situation to take place. A simple VERY SMALL turn of the wheel to starboard BEFORE the close quarters situation occurred would have avoided the close quarters situation and no collision would have occurred. 3) the reason the smaller vessel shares some share of the blame is he failed to take appropriate action to avoid a collision when it became apparent the larger vessel was not taking the action required of it by the rules. I'm always happy to educate a so-called professional who's view of the world is warped because he thinks "might makes right" as evidenced by that ignorant last statement that the little boat get the hell out of the way of the larger boat. Sorry, but the rules don't allow that. The rules REQUIRE the stand-on vessel to maintain course and speed until it becomes apparent that the give way vessel is causing a close quarters situation and a danger of collision exists. Then and only then is the stand on vessel required to take action to avoid a collision. Now, run along and review the Rules of the Road. It looks like you need to brush up. Wilbur Hubbard You need to read Rule 17 again and learn to look futher than the tip of your nose when viewing a video. That's exactly what I was talking about in the above paragraph. Wilbur Hubbard |
Who's at fault here
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in news:471a52a8$0
: You need to read Rule 17 again and learn to look futher than the tip of your nose when viewing a video. That's exactly what I was talking about in the above paragraph. Wilbur Hubbard I saw what you were talking about, which is why I said you need to read it again |
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