Dropcord Pricing...
 

My buddy Joe's Jenneau 42 has two electrical systems, the original 220VAC
from France that runs the fridge and battery charger, and a simple 115VAC
system to power some internal American outlets and the MarineAir A/C box.

I objected to the power cord that came with the boat. On the boat end is
a 30A, 220VAC FRENCH (no, don't curse) plug with 3 round holes in a
triangle we probably can't buy over here. The other end has this
HUMONGOUS 125/250VAC, 50A, $120 connector that plugs into the stupid
marina box. The cable in between them is #14 ORANGE DROPCORD waiting to
EXPLODE if anything shorts! It's a fire waiting to happen.

So, Joe sent me for the parts to put in a proper 50A service it really
doesn't need, given the very light electrical system of this boat.

My head is still reeling from seeing the prices for the simplest of
electrical parts for a damned little BOAT!

If I bought a 50' 50A 125/250 DROPCORD from Waste Marine Pirates with a
new 50A hull connector to wire the really nice French GFI to....IT WOULD
COST NEARLY $800! $660 for a DROPCORD?!! The damned thing is PLASTIC,
not armored with 22K gold plate! Is yellow plastic THAT expensive?!
Molded plastic plugs? The shiny plated boat socket is $194.99! It's not
Palladium, either!

I found the cable for around $450 on the net, through Boater's World
curiously. Even that is just AWFUL!

We gave up. Joe's chest was hurting from his heart pounding that hard.

Why should a DROPCORD cost $660?! Goddamned THEIVING *******S! You'd
think we were plugging in an AIRCRAFT CARRIER....

Larry
--
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...oducte/10001/-
1/10001/126902/377%20710%201640/0/Electrical%20Cordsets/Primary%
20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%201640&Ne=0
&Ntt=Electrical%20Cordsets&Ntx=mode%
20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTo kenURL=true&storeNum=9
&subdeptNum=310&classNum=574

Yes, that's its URL, probably why the price is $660!

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Larry" wrote:

snip most of the venting of the spleen

Why should a DROPCORD cost $660?! Goddamned THEIVING *******S! You'd
think we were plugging in an AIRCRAFT CARRIER....

Strip out the 250V European stuff and the problem goes away.

Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote:

snip most of the venting of the spleen

Why should a DROPCORD cost $660?! Goddamned THEIVING *******S! You'd
think we were plugging in an AIRCRAFT CARRIER....

Strip out the 250V European stuff and the problem goes away.

Lew


Can you make your own cord-using components from a US electrical supplier?
Your electrical supplier will be able to outline the proper US standard and
code. Look around, maybe you have a member at you club that is an
electrical contractor and can held you?

Dropcord Pricing...
 

wrote in
:

Can you make your own cord-using components from a US electrical
supplier? Your electrical supplier will be able to outline the proper
US standard and code. Look around, maybe you have a member at you
club that is an electrical contractor and can held you?




That's the curious part. Yachts don't use a standardized connector the
rest of the electrical industry uses. There seems to be only a handful
of suppliers (Hubbell, Charles, Marinco, etc.), specialty companies who
can demand these rediculous prices, maybe in collusion with each other
and the stores.

We could use:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=288
at $275.
or buy the connectors:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=276
at $36
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=277
at $44

But, are these the same size? Boat plugs don't have that center guide
pin, so I'd think they were "different". I don't think these will
fit....at 1/3 the awful price of boat connectors.

Why can't we wire marinas with NEMA 14-50R sockets?
http://www.onestopbuy.com/279-8151.asp
$9.39 ($7.88 if you buy 10 of them)
Like EVERY electric stove in America uses....making them CHEAP!
http://www.onestopbuy.com/275-T-6585.asp
The plug is $25.

I can hear it, "But they don't lock in place!". Waitaminit! What
happened the last time someone's $800 twist-locked drop cord got pulled
on on the dock? IT RIPPED APART! It's only plastic, you know. It
doesn't need to lock onto the plug. The cord is usually wrapped around
the post and puts NO STRAIN AT ALL on the plug!

There ARE outside weatherproof covers for these cheap connectors! Do we
need them? NO WE DON'T! The outlet on the dock is INSIDE a weatherproof
box. Look at yours. The inlet on your boat could just as well be, as
this French boat is, INSIDE a locker with a notch to put the cord in to
close the locker. If it were INSIDE a locker, everyone walking down the
little decks wouldn't be STEPPING ON THE PROTRUDING PLUG. We could
eliminate the whole boat inlet nonsense and hard wire the boat's power
cord to a NEMA box INSIDE THE LOCKER with a WINDER ON IT! Oh, what? The
damned boat power cord always in the way at sea might WIND ITSELF UP
INSIDE THE BOAT? How silly....it HAS to plug into the $150 inlet RIGHT
WHERE YOU WALK IN AND OUT, doesn't it? Yes, because "we've always done
it that way".

Nonsense....The shore power cable is NOT USED AT SEA. It doesn't HAVE
to, and if you look down the dock never is, all sealed up. These drop
cords on all our docks is plugged in and left open. Those black sealing
rings lay all over the place...(c;


Larry
--
$800 for a dropcord.....is just STUPID!
Hell, we could reduce dock rent if we didn't need $200 connectors!

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

Can you make your own cord-using components from a US electrical
supplier? Your electrical supplier will be able to outline the proper
US standard and code. Look around, maybe you have a member at you
club that is an electrical contractor and can held you?




That's the curious part. Yachts don't use a standardized connector the
rest of the electrical industry uses. There seems to be only a handful
of suppliers (Hubbell, Charles, Marinco, etc.), specialty companies who
can demand these rediculous prices, maybe in collusion with each other
and the stores.

I like your feedback. Last spring we at our club upgraded the electrical
panels on the docks.
A member contractor build all the panels as per the codes and standars with
components purchased from wholesale electrical suppliers.

We could use:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=288
at $275.
or buy the connectors:
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=276
at $36
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect....duct_info.php?
products_id=277
at $44

But, are these the same size? Boat plugs don't have that center guide
pin, so I'd think they were "different". I don't think these will
fit....at 1/3 the awful price of boat connectors.

Why can't we wire marinas with NEMA 14-50R sockets?
http://www.onestopbuy.com/279-8151.asp
$9.39 ($7.88 if you buy 10 of them)
Like EVERY electric stove in America uses....making them CHEAP!
http://www.onestopbuy.com/275-T-6585.asp
The plug is $25.

I can hear it, "But they don't lock in place!". Waitaminit! What
happened the last time someone's $800 twist-locked drop cord got pulled
on on the dock? IT RIPPED APART! It's only plastic, you know. It
doesn't need to lock onto the plug. The cord is usually wrapped around
the post and puts NO STRAIN AT ALL on the plug!

There ARE outside weatherproof covers for these cheap connectors! Do we
need them? NO WE DON'T! The outlet on the dock is INSIDE a weatherproof
box. Look at yours. The inlet on your boat could just as well be, as
this French boat is, INSIDE a locker with a notch to put the cord in to
close the locker. If it were INSIDE a locker, everyone walking down the
little decks wouldn't be STEPPING ON THE PROTRUDING PLUG. We could
eliminate the whole boat inlet nonsense and hard wire the boat's power
cord to a NEMA box INSIDE THE LOCKER with a WINDER ON IT! Oh, what? The
damned boat power cord always in the way at sea might WIND ITSELF UP
INSIDE THE BOAT? How silly....it HAS to plug into the $150 inlet RIGHT
WHERE YOU WALK IN AND OUT, doesn't it? Yes, because "we've always done
it that way".

Nonsense....The shore power cable is NOT USED AT SEA. It doesn't HAVE
to, and if you look down the dock never is, all sealed up. These drop
cords on all our docks is plugged in and left open. Those black sealing
rings lay all over the place...(c;


Larry
--
$800 for a dropcord.....is just STUPID!
Hell, we could reduce dock rent if we didn't need $200 connectors!

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:40:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

If I bought a 50' 50A 125/250 DROPCORD from Waste Marine Pirates with a
new 50A hull connector to wire the really nice French GFI to....IT WOULD
COST NEARLY $800!

You might do better if you buy the wire at Home Despot or Lowes and
put on your own connectors. I know that HD used to sell yellow, heavy
duty multi-conductor cable. If not you should be able to order it
from any good electrical supplier.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:40:09 +0000, Larry wrote:

If I bought a 50' 50A 125/250 DROPCORD from Waste Marine Pirates with a
new 50A hull connector to wire the really nice French GFI to....IT
WOULD
COST NEARLY $800!

You might do better if you buy the wire at Home Despot or Lowes and
put on your own connectors. I know that HD used to sell yellow, heavy
duty multi-conductor cable. If not you should be able to order it
from any good electrical supplier.

I think the answer is to hang a dual 15A breaker box, out from the 50A
plug on the dock, then I can use a STANDARD #14 drop cord, safely, and
have plenty of 240VAC power for the French stuff in the boat. 15A =
3.6KVA at that voltage, more than enough to power everything in the boat!

It's really stupid marinas put megadock power systems on 35' finger piers
that need 20A of 115/230VAC for sailboats.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

You might do better if you buy the wire at Home Despot or Lowes and
put on your own connectors. I know that HD used to sell yellow, heavy
duty multi-conductor cable. If not you should be able to order it
from any good electrical supplier.

Problem is that is not marine grade hardware is not found at your local DIY
or dood industrial electrical distributer.

Marine grade electrical is strictly a speciality business.

Marine graide uses fully tinned cable and the connector devices are also
receive special plating.

Lack of volume drives up the cost, not greed as you might expect.

Want some bedtime horror stories?

Chase down the history of problems attempting to use welding cable for
onboard applications.

Hint: Welding cable is not tinned.


Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:45:47 +0000, Larry wrote:

It's really stupid marinas put megadock power systems on 35' finger piers
that need 20A of 115/230VAC for sailboats.

Most docks in the north east have outlets for both 30 amp cables (120
volt) or 50 amp (240 volts split). Smaller boats without shore power
connectors usually carry an adapter which converts a 30 amp twist lock
plug into a conventional 15 amp socket. You could do the same thing
with a 50 amp plug just using one leg of the 240.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:18:59 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Chase down the history of problems attempting to use welding cable for
onboard applications.

Hint: Welding cable is not tinned.

If you tin it yourself with a soldering iron when it is still new and
shinny you shouldn't have too many problems. Once it goes to green
grunge however, fuhgetabahdit.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

If you tin it yourself with a soldering iron when it is still new
and
shinny you shouldn't have too many problems. Once it goes to green
grunge however, fuhgetabahdit.

That must be some solder tinning process that allows you to tin a
cable, 6" back under the insulation with out damaging the insulation.

Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Smaller boats without shore power
connectors usually carry an adapter which converts a 30 amp twist lock
plug into a conventional 15 amp socket. You could do the same thing
with a 50 amp plug just using one leg of the 240.



There's an interesting discussion that needs to be aired out.......

The breaker on the 50A outlet on the dock is 50A. I'm not sure how much
surge it will produce before it trips, but it's a thermal breaker, not
magnetic, so it takes time to heat up and trip on a short.

So, here comes Joe Boater with his "adapter". Joe plugs his adapter into
the massive 50A jack, then plugs his #12 30A boat cord into the adapter.
You've all seen it and thought nothing of it.

Now, if this were in a building, it would be called a "violation of the
National Electrical Code" because the 50 amp branch circuit was
"adapted" to a way-too-small-for-50-amp cable leading to the fire in the
boat. If the cable shorts, because someone pinched it in a hatch for
instance, the cable will explode in flames all the way back to the
adapter. This will set the flammable plastic boat and wooden dock on
fire, just because the marina did not provide the PROPER circuit for Joe
Boater's 30A (or worse less) circuit.

There are lots of "splitters", even provided by the marina staff!, to
plug your 20 or 30A boat into this 50A branch circuit.....still a
violation as far as I am concerned.

And you're gonna SLEEP in there?!

Larry
--
Why bother to put breakers on the dock at all??

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:13ds4tqoa3rqd48
@corp.supernews.com:


"Wayne.B" wrote:

If you tin it yourself with a soldering iron when it is still new
and
shinny you shouldn't have too many problems. Once it goes to green
grunge however, fuhgetabahdit.

That must be some solder tinning process that allows you to tin a
cable, 6" back under the insulation with out damaging the insulation.

Lew




I'm still wondering how they make a $600 cable so flexible if it's ALL
TINNED....??

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Larry" wrote

I'm still wondering how they make a $600 cable so flexible if it's
ALL
TINNED....??

Read and understand the cable specs.

They are self explanatory.

Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:26:01 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote:

If you tin it yourself with a soldering iron when it is still new
and
shinny you shouldn't have too many problems. Once it goes to green
grunge however, fuhgetabahdit.

That must be some solder tinning process that allows you to tin a
cable, 6" back under the insulation with out damaging the insulation.

No need for that in my experience, just tin the part that is stripped
where the connection is going to be, and seal the gap with heat shrink
tubing to keep moisture out.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:24:27 +0000, Larry wrote:

I'm still wondering how they make a $600 cable so flexible if it's ALL
TINNED....??

The individual (fine) strands are tinned.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:23:14 +0000, Larry wrote:

So, here comes Joe Boater with his "adapter". Joe plugs his adapter into
the massive 50A jack, then plugs his #12 30A boat cord into the adapter.
You've all seen it and thought nothing of it.

Now, if this were in a building, it would be called a "violation of the
National Electrical Code" because the 50 amp branch circuit was
"adapted" to a way-too-small-for-50-amp cable leading to the fire in the
boat.

Technically correct but in practice it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Most shore power fires are at the boat end of the cable due to bad
connections.

Dropcord Pricing...
 

Wayne.B wrote:

Smaller boats without shore power
connectors usually carry an adapter which converts a 30 amp twist
lock
plug into a conventional 15 amp socket.

"Larry" wrote:

There's an interesting discussion that needs to be aired out.......
snip

Why?

You plug an "adaptor" into the 50A receptacle, then you plug a 50 ft,
12-2 with ground extension into the "adaptor", then plug in the hot
plate that you leave on the dock.

If you develop a short, the magnetic portion of the 50A c'bkr will
clear the fault.

If you develop an overload that is less than 50A, first something will
start to smell. then smoke, then burn.

No, the magnetic portion of the 50A c'bkr will NOT clear the fault,
but so what?

Pull the plug, let the faulty device cool down, then scrap.

No boat caught fire, no one got electrocuted.

If you are foolish enough to walk away from your boat, with an
electrical load connected and operating, you deserve what ever
happens.

SFWIW, NEC is concerned about the insulation on the conductors of the
distribution system which does not include temporary extension
cordage.

Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

"Wayne.B" wrote:

No need for that in my experience, just tin the part that is
stripped
where the connection is going to be, and seal the gap with heat
shrink
tubing to keep moisture out.

You are kidding yourself.

Soldering or "tinning" wire before installing a mechanical crimp
connection, defeats the primary function of a mechanically crimped
connection.

Sealing with "goo" and shrink tape also fails to truly address the
problem which is quite similar to the solid aluminum conductor
problems of the 70s.

Under load, heat develops which not only reduces the affiance of the
mechanical connection, but further reduces the affiance further till
failure.

The failure with untinned wire develops about 3"-5" back from the
connection when the wire melts.

Was told by a guy who conducted the "boat autopsy" for a boat the
insurance company hired him to investigate.

It was a large gas powered boat that had been rewired with 4/0 welding
cable, with the cables routed over the top of the gas tanks.

Needless to say, the boat was a total loss and the insurance company
declined to cover the loss.

Lew

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:23:14 +0000, Larry wrote:

There are lots of "splitters", even provided by the marina staff!, to
plug your 20 or 30A boat into this 50A branch circuit.....still a
violation as far as I am concerned.

And you're gonna SLEEP in there?!

Larry
--
Why bother to put breakers on the dock at all??

The circuit breaker can be on the boat and it will work. The entire
circuit carries the same current, after all.

Casady

Dropcord Pricing...
 

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:40:09 +0000, in message

Larry wrote:

My buddy Joe's Jenneau 42 has two electrical systems, the original 220VAC
from France that runs the fridge and battery charger, and a simple 115VAC
system to power some internal American outlets and the MarineAir A/C box.

How about installing an onboard transformer to bump up the voltage for
the European fridge and charger? Unless the draw is huge that could be
a cost effective solution that you can power off the existing North
American connection. If the orange #14 hasn't melted yet, then it
can't be too big a load.

Ryk

Dropcord Pricing...
 

Ryk wrote in
:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:40:09 +0000, in message

Larry wrote:

My buddy Joe's Jenneau 42 has two electrical systems, the original
220VAC from France that runs the fridge and battery charger, and a
simple 115VAC system to power some internal American outlets and the
MarineAir A/C box.

How about installing an onboard transformer to bump up the voltage for
the European fridge and charger? Unless the draw is huge that could be
a cost effective solution that you can power off the existing North
American connection. If the orange #14 hasn't melted yet, then it
can't be too big a load.

Ryk



That's also being submitted to the owner. We had a small transformer on
Lionheart, an Amel Sharki, for the fridge until we replaced it with a new
one. I've converted all its 220VAC outlets to 115 American, now.

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......