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More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up
mainsail. Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove sliding slugs. A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be. The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes nowhere any more. But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor. Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising. Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself. Wilbur Hubbard |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up mainsail. Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself. Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove sliding slugs. Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?. With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ... just like my roller main. A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be. How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail out. f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4 feet would you be going faster? With a roller you can reef that four feet. There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars. The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes nowhere any more. Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes, the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet. Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along with all the other lines? I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock. My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor. Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising. Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself. What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy. Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft. boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings. No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets? .. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
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More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in message ... On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up mainsail. Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself. And that made it impossible for you to cruise for maybe half a year. Exactly what you wanted, wasn't it? Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove sliding slugs. Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?. With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ... just like my roller main. If you don't have a Marconi rig then you're less a cruiser than I thought. A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be. How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail out. Perhaps a 30% loss. A correctly sized for the conditionions rolled up mainsail will always loose out to a correctly sized for the conditions (slab reefed) mainsail. Not only that but it will be more dangerous and more likely to break or unwind. f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4 feet would you be going faster? Real cruisers have three reef points and a dedicated storm trysail on its own track. That covers all contingencies. With a roller you can reef that four feet. And it can jam, break, unwind when least expected, jam and flog. There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars. Vertical battens are not as efficient as horizontal battens. The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat the more I come to realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising. Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes nowhere any more. Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes, the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet. Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along with all the other lines? I don't know enough about your boat to talk specifics. What I DO know is you seem to sit overlong in one place while claiming to be a world cruiser. You need to become a little more realistic about your method of operation. Face it. You are settled in and comfortable. Nothing wrong with that. You found a good place to live. Just admit it and get along with your life there. Stop trying to act like a latter day Joshua Slocum. I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock. With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass or electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you. My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? You mean Capt. Neal's? I'd guess twenty years or so because it's rarely used. It's already six years old and he says it has less than 200 hours on it. But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor. Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising. Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself. What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy. The Swan is my coorporate tas write-off yacht. I have a captain and crew running it. I just go along for the ride from time to time. My Allied Seawind 32 is my coastal cruiser. I sail that all by my little lonesome. It's Capt. Neal who's got the Honda 9.9 not me. Heck that's not even big enough for the Swan's dinghy. Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft. boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings. No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets? Real cruisers do it themselves. They don't sail by committee. Real sailors don't try to sail a floating home. They sail a seaworthy yacht that becomes their home. Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems that only lubbers think they need. Real sailors leave port unnoticed and arrive in another port almost unnoticed. They don't have to yell for help or ask for assistance. They don't think one disaster after another is what sailing is all about. They hate the sight of and the smell of civilization except for a day or two after a long passage. They consider a dock the nemesis of their lifestyle. They like their privacy. The land is only a place to stop long enough to provision before carrying on. They are happy to be solitary men. They know only a handful of women in this world are cut out to be real sailors. They are satisfied that even though they likely will never find such a woman they just might if they keep doing what they are doing and are honest about their way of life. But, it does not become a priority or an obsession. They don't prostitute themselves by trying to attract the wrong kind of woman who is only satisfied with a luxury condo that floats. I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:39:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: He bragged about the fact that he installed an outside-the-mast, wind-up mainsail. Actually I didn't think I was bragging about my system. If I had have been I'd probably have mentioned that I designed it myself, calculated all the loads and stresses, Sized the material to allow a 50% safety factor, cut and welded it myself, and if I do say so there isn't a warp or wrinkle in it. Installed it myself and designed and manufactured the reefing and furling systems myself. And that made it impossible for you to cruise for maybe half a year. Exactly what you wanted, wasn't it? A half a year? Who's doing your work? You really need to find some better quality craftsmen. It took me about a week to fabricate and install the complete furling system. While I was doing the fabrication and installation my wife was recutting and sewing the sail so we were about a week, maybe ten days, from removing the original goose neck to the shake down cruise with the new system. Everybody knows this is the worst of all systems. Any real sailor would have a conventional mainsail that was hauled aloft on track or groove sliding slugs. Willy, Know what a staysail schooner is? Know what a fisherman staysail is? Know what a jib is, or a genoa or a yankee staysail?. With the exception of the mainsail on the schooner all of these sails are set on stays - stretched cables - and they all sag to windward ... just like my roller main. If you don't have a Marconi rig then you're less a cruiser than I thought. I guess that means poor old Joshua Slocum, the first man to sail around the world alone, was some kind of wimp (gaff rig) All the schooner fishermen on the grand banks for years were gaff rigged, The America (maybe you've heard of that boat) was gaff rigged. Literally thousands of junk rigged chinese vessels were trading as far as India for centuries. The Clipper ships were not marconi rigged. I could go on but why bother. You have, for some reason selected a relatively recent sail form and decided that if an individual doesn't use that form he aren't a sailor although that sail form has been in use for such a tiny portion of the period in which sailing vessels have been in use. Next you will be telling me that stainless is the only material to rig your boat with even though it has been proven that properly treated galvanized rigging lasts longer. A roll-up loses efficiency because of the distance between the mast and the luff of the sail. More efficiency is lost because the sail has added sag-off. Battens can't be used because they don't roll up therefore the sail has little or no roach and is less efficient than it could be. How much efficiency does it lose? And how much is that loss in efficiency compensated for by always having the correct amount of sail out. Perhaps a 30% loss. A correctly sized for the conditionions rolled up mainsail will always loose out to a correctly sized for the conditions (slab reefed) mainsail. Not only that but it will be more dangerous and more likely to break or unwind. Willie, you just plain don;t know what you are talking about. Why is my roll up mainsail more likely to unroll then a rolled up jib and at least 90 percent of the boats I see have roller furling jibs. Even your swan 68 comes standard with a roller furling foresail. Your figure of a 30% loss in efficiency is ridicules. If it were true then my boat would sail substantially slower then it did with the hanked on main but in fact it is impossible to tell the difference. In fact, because I am able to carry the ideal amount of sail for wind conditions, it appears that passages are actually quicker then they were with the old mainsail. f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4 feet would you be going faster? Real cruisers have three reef points and a dedicated storm trysail on its own track. That covers all contingencies. You are right. and the reef points are about 6 feet apart, depending on how big a boat you have. So you must reef in six foot slabs when in fact it might be better to only reef 4 feet but because the reef cringles are at six feet that is the distance you have to shorten sail. The roller, on the other hand can let in or out the sail inches at a time and thus can maintain the ideal sail area for the wind force. I fully agree with you about the storm sail and have such a track fitted along with the appropriate halyards, sheets and other gear. I also have a storm trisail with all of its rigging if required. The roller system does not preclude the use of storm sails. With a roller you can reef that four feet. And it can jam, break, unwind when least expected, jam and flog. Why in God's world should it jam? Internally it is just a long piece of plastic pipe rotating on a S.S. cable. As far as flogging I will guarantee that I can change sail area faster then you can with your slab reefing and with far less flogging. And without leaving the cockpit. There are two batten systems used with roll up sails and either will give as good sail form as conventional battens and batten cars. Vertical battens are not as efficient as horizontal battens. That is a debatable subject as the purpose of a batten is simply to reinforce the sail material and help it hold its shape. The companies, and people who use them, both state that the vertical system works well. The more Bruce reveals about himself and his boat Further proof is the fact he's stuck at a dock constantly fixing up his complicated and inefficient systems and goes nowhere any more. Yes, complicated systems; lets see? Is it the nearly 30 year old Perkins 4-107 engine - ah yes, a really complicated piece of machinery that. I overhauled it in Singapore ten years ago. What else? Oh yes, the VHF set, now ten years old and looking like another ten before it dies. Of course we got the 60 amp battery charger that I bought down at the auto shop five years ago, but that isn't broke yet. Come on Willy, tell me. What it this complicated system that keeps me so busy. Is it the roller furling that operates from the cockpit along with all the other lines? I don't know enough about your boat to talk specifics. What I DO know is you seem to sit overlong in one place while claiming to be a world cruiser. You need to become a little more realistic about your method of operation. Face it. You are settled in and comfortable. Nothing wrong with that. You found a good place to live. Just admit it and get along with your life there. Stop trying to act like a latter day Joshua Slocum. If you don;t know enough about my boat to talk specifics then why did you make the statement " the more I come to realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising." ,as you did above. Now you are admitting that you don't know anything about my boat. So either your statement was simple footlessness or a lie. Now you tell me that "You need to become a little more realistic about your method of operation." and if I ask you what are my methods of operation you will admit that you don;t know anything about my methods of operation. Is this more idiotic ranting or simply another lie? I know! It is that damned electric anchor winch. Five years ago I had it apart to paint the housing and while it was apart I had the bearings changed. That is it! Two bearings and a coat of paint, that is the excess maintenance that is keeping me tied to the dock. With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass or electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you. You are an idiot if you really mean that statement and it is not just your usual bluster. If what you say is true then I assume that you have no winches at all on your boat. No halyard winches; no sheet winches; no anchor winch. Nothing but the strength in your arm. Well, Willie, you just gave yourself away. You've got a 23, maybe 25 foot boat, maximum, because you can't handle genoa sheets on anything bigger without winches. You use rope to anchor which might be all right in some muddy creek but won't hack it in rocks and coral like we have over here. My out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? You mean Capt. Neal's? I'd guess twenty years or so because it's rarely used. It's already six years old and he says it has less than 200 hours on it. I don;t know about Capt. Neil but old Willie Boy was the lad that bragged about his 9.9 HP, 4-stroke, outboard.. (Unless you are Capt. Neil in disguise) But, in a way, I guess this is good. I'm sure Bruce considers himself and others like him to be the typical modern-day cruising sailor. Because of this, there are way fewer such people actually cruising. Instead they provide a good living for marinas. That means I'm not bothered by them, their problems and their lowering of the cruising bar whilst I'm out cruising the proper, tried and true way myself. What is the "typical modern-day cruising sailor", Willy? Somebody with a Swan 68 and a 9.9 HP outboard bolted to the stern, or is it somebody with a trailer-sailter who can't afford marinas so has to anchor out and haul water and gas and cooking fuel. Or, is it some one who just gets up and goes whenever he wants to? Let us in on the secret Willy. The Swan is my coorporate tas write-off yacht. I have a captain and crew running it. I just go along for the ride from time to time. My Allied Seawind 32 is my coastal cruiser. I sail that all by my little lonesome. It's Capt. Neal who's got the Honda 9.9 not me. Heck that's not even big enough for the Swan's dinghy. I assume that you are trying to be a comedian here. Peter is getting ready to leave Central America as soon as the cyclone season is over and hasn't made up his mind whether to head straight to N.Z. or stop in Vietnam first. And this is a guy that you bad mouthed and said wasn't a sailor, talking about essentially a nonstop crossing of the Pacific Ocean. And he is doing it in a 40 ft. boat he built himself right down to the cast bronze rigging fittings. No, Willy you got to let us know what the difference is between people who go out and do a thousand mile sail when they want to and The REAL sailors that you so regularly refer to. How are you ever going to get us to change if you don't let us in on the secrets? Real cruisers do it themselves. They don't sail by committee. Real sailors don't try to sail a floating home. They sail a seaworthy yacht that becomes their home. Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems that only lubbers think they need. You say "Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems that only lubbers think they need." Why, if your home is attuned to the sea do you have these systems that only lubbers think they need? I thought you claimed to be a sailor and now you are telling me that you have this lubberly equipment on your boat. Real sailors leave port unnoticed and arrive in another port almost unnoticed. That might be true where you are but try it in this part of the world and you will find your boat impounded and yourself in jail. You do not leave a country and enter another country without complying with the certain formalities. You obviously don't cruise foreign or I wouldn't have to tell you that. They don't have to yell for help or ask for assistance. They don't think one disaster after another is what sailing is all about. They hate the sight of and the smell of civilization except for a day or two after a long passage. They consider a dock the nemesis of their lifestyle. They like their privacy. The land is only a place to stop long enough to provision before carrying on. They are happy to be solitary men. They know only a handful of women in this world are cut out to be real sailors. They are satisfied that even though they likely will never find such a woman they just might if they keep doing what they are doing and are honest about their way of life. But, it does not become a priority or an obsession. They don't prostitute themselves by trying to attract the wrong kind of woman who is only satisfied with a luxury condo that floats. I hope this helps. Ah Ha! Now I know where you get all your weird ideas, you've been reading Tristen Jones, haven't you? You do know that Tristen spent his last years at Ao Chalong in Phuket so a large number of the locals knew him. He was a pedophile, a drunk, a liar, and never repaid a debt, and you don't have to believe me you can ask anyone who was around A o Chafing while Tristen was alive and you will get exactly the same story. So your hero is not someone to set up as an image to worship. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in message ... On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:07:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: snip Not true. That group used to have 20 or more regulars, most of who contributed almost daily and were worth reading - and over 100 posts a day. Now it's a small handful of humorless chumps (4? 5?) who bicker back and forth over nothing. It amounts to, "You are... No YOU are". You, yourself, are engaged in yet another of those over there right now with "Macho Joe". Very tedious, and not worth the trip from anywhere at this point. You sure got that right! It's good to see the so-called Captain doesn't fool some people. He's is one of the worst offenders yet he tries to act like it's everybody else's fault. Besides that, he's the main reason there's so much off-topic stuff with multiple cross posts from all sorts of unrelated groups. It's because the word got around that he's a snitching netcop who writes about as many bogus abuse reports to news servers as he writes posts. He's a proven hypocrite - saying one thing and doing the exact opposite. I've been lurking there for a couple months and it's not too hard to see what's going on. On top of all that, he's a liar. Greg |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in message ... A half a year? Who's doing your work? You really need to find some better quality craftsmen. It took me about a week to fabricate and install the complete furling system. While I was doing the fabrication and installation my wife was recutting and sewing the sail so we were about a week, maybe ten days, from removing the original goose neck to the shake down cruise with the new system. That's not as long as I thought but it's still ten days too long because you replaced a perfectly good system with an inferior one. I guess that means poor old Joshua Slocum, the first man to sail around the world alone, was some kind of wimp (gaff rig) All the schooner fishermen on the grand banks for years were gaff rigged, The America (maybe you've heard of that boat) was gaff rigged. Literally thousands of junk rigged chinese vessels were trading as far as India for centuries. The Clipper ships were not marconi rigged. I could go on but why bother. You have, for some reason selected a relatively recent sail form and decided that if an individual doesn't use that form he aren't a sailor although that sail form has been in use for such a tiny portion of the period in which sailing vessels have been in use. Next you will be telling me that stainless is the only material to rig your boat with even though it has been proven that properly treated galvanized rigging lasts longer. Get real, Buster. Old Josh didn't even have the availabilty of the modern Marconi rig with Dacron polyesther sails. Nor did the Clipper ships. And, yes, stainless steel is superior in just about every way to old-fashioned galvanized standing rigging. You can go ahead and smear all the tar you want on your inferior galvanized crap and brag about how long it lasts but you won't impress anybody doing it. Willie, you just plain don;t know what you are talking about. Why is my roll up mainsail more likely to unroll then a rolled up jib and at least 90 percent of the boats I see have roller furling jibs. Even your swan 68 comes standard with a roller furling foresail. Get real again. During storms jibs and jennys unroll all the time at marinas and flog themselves to death. I've watched no fewer than four boats at anchor with wind-ups that unrolled in a storm and flogged themselves to shreds. If you aren't aware of this you'd better start asking around. My Swan has sails that roll up inside the boom. That's the only acceptable kind of roll-up to have. Your figure of a 30% loss in efficiency is ridicules. If it were true then my boat would sail substantially slower then it did with the hanked on main but in fact it is impossible to tell the difference. In fact, because I am able to carry the ideal amount of sail for wind conditions, it appears that passages are actually quicker then they were with the old mainsail. I don't think it's so ridiculous. If your sail rolls up to an eight inch diameter roll that means you have to set it four inches behind the mast. That's a four inch slot to mess up the aerodynamics of the system. As for telling the difference you wouldn't be able to unless you fitted one, tested in in known winds. Then fitted the other and tested it in known winds and then did a comparison. If you expect to tell by the seat of the pants while sitting in the cockpit of a thirty ton boat then you're daft. f you use slab reefing, on a normal size cruising boat, you reef, say six feet of sail at a time. Is it too much? If you could have reefed 4 feet would you be going faster? Nonsense, you're forgetting all about that big roll in the luff which screws up the aerodynamics. You seem to have the old fashioned idea that a sail is just surface area for the wind to push on. It is going downwind but on the wind it becomes an airfoil and airfoils MUST have an airfoil shape. A big sausage roll on the luff of is not an airfoil shape. A large screwed up airfoil will provide less power than a smaller proper airfoil. You are right. and the reef points are about 6 feet apart, depending on how big a boat you have. So you must reef in six foot slabs when in fact it might be better to only reef 4 feet but because the reef cringles are at six feet that is the distance you have to shorten sail. The roller, on the other hand can let in or out the sail inches at a time and thus can maintain the ideal sail area for the wind force. Nonsense yet again as I explained about. Your sausage sail even if larger is less powerful than a proper smaller airfoil on points of sail except downwind. I fully agree with you about the storm sail and have such a track fitted along with the appropriate halyards, sheets and other gear. I also have a storm trisail with all of its rigging if required. The roller system does not preclude the use of storm sails. You have to take it down to get the damned thing out of the way, don't you. I don't know about you but I sure don't want my storm trysail chafing on some stupid wind-up hardware. Why in God's world should it jam? Internally it is just a long piece of plastic pipe rotating on a S.S. cable. As far as flogging I will guarantee that I can change sail area faster then you can with your slab reefing and with far less flogging. And without leaving the cockpit. EVERYBODY whose ever sailed with roll-ups for any length of time has had jams and snags. It's part of the game. If you don;t know enough about my boat to talk specifics then why did you make the statement " the more I come to realize he has fallen prey to and is a victim of too many, so-called, modern developments which do nothing but hinder simple, safe and enjoyable cruising." ,as you did above. Now you are admitting that you don't know anything about my boat. So either your statement was simple footlessness or a lie. That conclusion isn't hard to come by. One need only look at your being in one place too long to be any kind of cruiser. One of the reasons people stay too long is their boats are too much for them. Either too large or too complicated or both together. Admit it, I'm right. Now you tell me that "You need to become a little more realistic about your method of operation." and if I ask you what are my methods of operation you will admit that you don;t know anything about my methods of operation. Is this more idiotic ranting or simply another lie? Sorry but I thought it was a clear statement. Your method of operation is to sit at a dock and partake of the Internet for months at a time. That should speak for itself, shouldn't it? With a proper sized cruising boat one never has a need for a windlass or electric winch. A proper sized cruising boat has systems one man can handle using the power God gave him. If you can't hand your ground tackle yourself then your boat's too big for you. You are an idiot if you really mean that statement and it is not just your usual bluster. If what you say is true then I assume that you have no winches at all on your boat. No halyard winches; no sheet winches; no anchor winch. Nothing but the strength in your arm. You need to read it again, that's why I left it in above. Notice I said electric winch. You jumped to saying I said all winches. I did not. I have winches on my boat but they aren't electric. Arm power is all I need. Two-speed manual winches generate lots of power. As for a windlass I have none. I do have a very large manual sheet winch on the foredeck that can be used to bust out a recalcitrant 35 pound Danforth but I can easily hand the anchor once it's busted out. Well, Willie, you just gave yourself away. You've got a 23, maybe 25 foot boat, maximum, because you can't handle genoa sheets on anything bigger without winches. You use rope to anchor which might be all right in some muddy creek but won't hack it in rocks and coral like we have over here. An invalid conclusion. I said electric winches. Manual winches are all one needs for sheets, etc. Even the America's cup boats use only manual winches and they have huge sails. As for anchor rodes I use chain and rope. All chain rodes are totally unnecessary. And look what people who use all chain rodes do. Then end up using a length of line as a snubber so the chain doesn't snatch the fitting out of the deck. You say "Their home is attuned to the sea and has limited systems that only lubbers think they need." Why, if your home is attuned to the sea do you have these systems that only lubbers think they need? I thought you claimed to be a sailor and now you are telling me that you have this lubberly equipment on your boat. What lubberly equipment are you talking about. Of course I have navigation electonics and electric depth sounder and VHF and manual winches and an aluminum mast and stainless steel standing rigging and all the usual modern things. I have a head with a hand pump and a stainless steel sink and autopilots. I'm no fool. But the things I have work and I don't go tinkering with them and changing them out as if I were some kind of expert engineer like you do. I sail and if something works I maintain it and keep it working. If something won't work it gets tossed overboard. That's the way it should be. and arrive in another port almost unnoticed. That might be true where you are but try it in this part of the world and you will find your boat impounded and yourself in jail. You do not leave a country and enter another country without complying with the certain formalities. You obviously don't cruise foreign or I wouldn't have to tell you that. That's not what I meant and you know it. You're grasping at straws now. I guess I should have realized I was talking to a nit-picker and said unnoticed by most other cruising sailors. In other words they wake up and see a new boat in the anchorage because they never saw or heard me come in and anchor or come out from C and I and anchor. Satisfied now, Buster? Ah Ha! Now I know where you get all your weird ideas, you've been reading Tristen Jones, haven't you? I read several of his books years ago. He was a tall tale teller to be sure. But, I think more like and identify with classical sailors the likes of Marin-Marie, Alain Gerbault, Harry Pidgeon, and Robin Knox-Johnston. Jones wasn't genuine enough. He was more a guy who sailed so he could sell books than a sailor who wrote books between sailing. Wilbur Hubbard |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in message
... On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:07:06 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:24:30 +0700, wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: snip endless and useless "tit-for-tat" back and forth between troll and fish wrote in message Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) Bruce - PLEASE spit the hook before you drag the whole group under with you. Wilbur/Neal is here because his former hangout at alt.sailing asa got so worn out that it is now mostly a ghost town. All the worthwhile and even most of the worthless posters have left in disgust. He's set his sights on doing the same here. Either kill file or ignore him, but DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS PRESENCE IN ANY MANNER. EVER! I'm assuming that you are wise enough to benefit from "a word to the wise" I second that, except that the other newsgroup is alive and well. Most people figured it out pretty quickly to ignore most of what he says. Not true. That group used to have 20 or more regulars, most of who contributed almost daily and were worth reading - and over 100 posts a day. Now it's a small handful of humorless chumps (4? 5?) who bicker back and forth over nothing. It amounts to, "You are... No YOU are". You, yourself, are engaged in yet another of those over there right now with "Macho Joe". Very tedious, and not worth the trip from anywhere at this point. It would be a real shame if that were allowed to fester over here, too. Hence my advice. You need to do a recount, and Joe and I are having a mostly civil discussion. Joe's a good guy. This group is more about the details. We chat about the bigger social issues. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:29:27 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:24:30 +0700, wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:27:53 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: snip endless and useless "tit-for-tat" back and forth between troll and fish wrote in message Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) Bruce - PLEASE spit the hook before you drag the whole group under with you. Wilbur/Neal is here because his former hangout at alt.sailing asa got so worn out that it is now mostly a ghost town. All the worthwhile and even most of the worthless posters have left in disgust. He's set his sights on doing the same here. Either kill file or ignore him, but DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE HIS PRESENCE IN ANY MANNER. EVER! I'm assuming that you are wise enough to benefit from "a word to the wise" I must apologize to the group. I had found it rather amusing to demolish each of his arguments with logic only to watch him come up with a new one. But I agree that the whole thing has gotten out of hand. As Voltaire said - Common sense is not so common. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
|
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
Hey "Bruce in Bangkok" and "Wilbur Hubbard aka (well never
mind)"... I for one... have enjoyed your on going threads and posts. Sure there is a certain amount of B.S. and trolling that exists... and yeh... the aforemetioned comment is directed primarily toward Mr. Hubbard. But out of it all... there has been some informative nautical type opinions put forth that are of interest to a lot of us viewers... from both of you. Thanks to you both... for taking the time to keep us entertained and in some respects informed. There ain't nothin going on at ASA any more..! heh heh Best regards to all Bill Anacapa Isle Marina Channel Islands Harbor Oxnard, California |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
" wrote in
oups.com: Thanks to you both... for taking the time to keep us entertained and in some respects informed. If I were in Thailand, I wouldn't be much of a sailor, either. Oh, those beautiful Thai girls!......(c; Lucky *******....hee hee. |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote:
y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. Casady |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:27:46 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote: y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. Casady I'm surprised that it is still running. I once found a much more modern SeaGull that belonged to a chap in Singapore and really wanted it but was embarrassed to ask did he want to sell it, figuring it was a family heirloom or something. One day I noticed it was gone and asked where it went. Oh - I gave it to somebody to get rid of it, he said. I told him I had been working up courage to offer to but the thing but figured it belonged to his grand dad or something. Can you still locate parts for you grumman? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:27:46 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote: y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. I apologise for unclear writing, but the canoe is the Grumman. The motor is an Evenrude. Parts for the boat are sheet metal and rivets. Neither has ever needed any parts. The motor doesn't necessarily have high hours, no way to really tell. Sure as hell couldn't ask previous owners, when we got it fifty years ago. It wasn't that old then, a mere thirty years. We have a recoil start one horse that is only slightly newer. We also had a duckboat. Twelve foot long, it was shaped almost exactly like a WWII German S-Boat. [also called E-boats], and was fast for the power, 22 mph with a five, and not bad with the one. The canoe is scary fast with a three, the narrow beam and all, but the one is nice. My dad used the half with his sixteen foot schooner. { a converted cedar,with an oak keel, rowboat. Made locally, the type hull was the standard local fishboat for decades} got the hull free from a neighbor. Sat out for years, the keel had rotted away. Cedar was still good. Replaced the keel with custom made steel. Got it from the Des Moines firm that made the Gateway Arch, at about the same time. They had two jobs that year. Casady |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:48:04 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:27:46 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote: y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. I apologise for unclear writing, but the canoe is the Grumman. The motor is an Evenrude. Parts for the boat are sheet metal and rivets. Neither has ever needed any parts. The motor doesn't necessarily have high hours, no way to really tell. Sure as hell couldn't ask previous owners, when we got it fifty years ago. It wasn't that old then, a mere thirty years. We have a recoil start one horse that is only slightly newer. We also had a duckboat. Twelve foot long, it was shaped almost exactly like a WWII German S-Boat. [also called E-boats], and was fast for the power, 22 mph with a five, and not bad with the one. The canoe is scary fast with a three, the narrow beam and all, but the one is nice. My dad used the half with his sixteen foot schooner. { a converted cedar,with an oak keel, rowboat. Made locally, the type hull was the standard local fishboat for decades} got the hull free from a neighbor. Sat out for years, the keel had rotted away. Cedar was still good. Replaced the keel with custom made steel. Got it from the Des Moines firm that made the Gateway Arch, at about the same time. They had two jobs that year. Casady I knew that Grumman built boats but did n not know that they had built engines also. I just assumed that hey were one of the early outboard motor makers that disappeared in the early on. In looking things up I did discover that Ole Evenrude was not the first maker of out boards, which is sort of a standard belief here. There was actually an earlier builder who appeared to be fairly successful but still disappeared fairly early on. Waterman built up top 1,000 engines a year as far back as 1905. Aluminum was the first nail in the wooden boat market and when GRP came along it pretty much killed the wooden boat makers. Back in the days of wooden working boats all the lobster boats were cedar on oak frames. From talking to the old folk the wood lasted but the galvanized boat nails holding it together only lasted 10 years, or so. .. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in message
... On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:48:04 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:27:46 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote: y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. I apologise for unclear writing, but the canoe is the Grumman. The motor is an Evenrude. Parts for the boat are sheet metal and rivets. Neither has ever needed any parts. The motor doesn't necessarily have high hours, no way to really tell. Sure as hell couldn't ask previous owners, when we got it fifty years ago. It wasn't that old then, a mere thirty years. We have a recoil start one horse that is only slightly newer. We also had a duckboat. Twelve foot long, it was shaped almost exactly like a WWII German S-Boat. [also called E-boats], and was fast for the power, 22 mph with a five, and not bad with the one. The canoe is scary fast with a three, the narrow beam and all, but the one is nice. My dad used the half with his sixteen foot schooner. { a converted cedar,with an oak keel, rowboat. Made locally, the type hull was the standard local fishboat for decades} got the hull free from a neighbor. Sat out for years, the keel had rotted away. Cedar was still good. Replaced the keel with custom made steel. Got it from the Des Moines firm that made the Gateway Arch, at about the same time. They had two jobs that year. Casady I knew that Grumman built boats but did n not know that they had built engines also. I just assumed that hey were one of the early outboard motor makers that disappeared in the early on. In looking things up I did discover that Ole Evenrude was not the first maker of out boards, which is sort of a standard belief here. There was actually an earlier builder who appeared to be fairly successful but still disappeared fairly early on. Waterman built up top 1,000 engines a year as far back as 1905. Aluminum was the first nail in the wooden boat market and when GRP came along it pretty much killed the wooden boat makers. Back in the days of wooden working boats all the lobster boats were cedar on oak frames. From talking to the old folk the wood lasted but the galvanized boat nails holding it together only lasted 10 years, or so. . Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) I remember watching Enoch Winslow steaming the oak frames and forming them into the shapes that he needed. He used to build up to 40' boats. He would start one in the fall and it would be on the way to the water on or about Memorial Day. It was a one man operation and something to watch, especially when it was all planked and he rolled it over to finish it out. My dad's automobile garage was next door to his boat building shop. Most were Eldridge-McGinnis designs, but he made three or four of his own lines. Leanne |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
wrote in news:39gkc3904k7di1qdd8kqn8ku85bu60dt87@
4ax.com: Aluminum was the first nail in the wooden boat market and when GRP came along it pretty much killed the wooden boat makers. Back in the days of wooden working boats all the lobster boats were cedar on oak frames. From talking to the old folk the wood lasted but the galvanized boat nails holding it together only lasted 10 years, or so. . It did?? http://www.seaislandboatworks.com/ Can we build one for YOU?....(c; (When they turn the hulls over, they have a huge party to attract local boaters who provide the labor to turn the hulls over at the boatyard. Great fun for all and gives you a feeling of doing something for wooden boats.) http://picasaweb.google.com/gshilling/LETSEEII How beautiful they build them!.....all by hand.... Larry -- |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:54:24 +0000, Larry wrote:
wrote in news:39gkc3904k7di1qdd8kqn8ku85bu60dt87@ 4ax.com: Aluminum was the first nail in the wooden boat market and when GRP came along it pretty much killed the wooden boat makers. Back in the days of wooden working boats all the lobster boats were cedar on oak frames. From talking to the old folk the wood lasted but the galvanized boat nails holding it together only lasted 10 years, or so. . It did?? http://www.seaislandboatworks.com/ Can we build one for YOU?....(c; (When they turn the hulls over, they have a huge party to attract local boaters who provide the labor to turn the hulls over at the boatyard. Great fun for all and gives you a feeling of doing something for wooden boats.) http://picasaweb.google.com/gshilling/LETSEEII How beautiful they build them!.....all by hand.... Larry Yes it really did. Now if you see a newly built "proper" wooden boat people just stand around and stare. I recently saw a 70 ft. schooner built to pre WW-I standards. All teak and polished brass. Apparently the chap that owned it had two of them and neither of them had a winch installed. All lines were hauled by hand. The one I saw did have a man powered anchor capstan to raise the anchor and (again the one I saw) had an auxiliary motor for maneuvering in anchorages or marinas. Apparently the business was to get group of people who wanted to learn to sail "like they did in the good old days". I guess it was a success as the one I saw was the second built. But millionaire's yachts don't really tell the story. Where are all the people that used to build Sharpys, Friendship Sloops,Chesapeake Skipjack, Dorys, Skiffs and all the other wooden working boats - all gone. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:34:01 -0400, "Leanne" wrote:
wrote in message .. . On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:48:04 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:27:46 GMT, (Richard Casady) wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:00:03 +0700, wrote: y out board is almost ten years old and still going strong drinking its 50::1 mix. Wonder if your 9.9 will last as long? My outboard is more than eighty years old. Starts with a rope, of course. One half HP. Powers an aluminum canoe. Grumman if it matters. I apologise for unclear writing, but the canoe is the Grumman. The motor is an Evenrude. Parts for the boat are sheet metal and rivets. Neither has ever needed any parts. The motor doesn't necessarily have high hours, no way to really tell. Sure as hell couldn't ask previous owners, when we got it fifty years ago. It wasn't that old then, a mere thirty years. We have a recoil start one horse that is only slightly newer. We also had a duckboat. Twelve foot long, it was shaped almost exactly like a WWII German S-Boat. [also called E-boats], and was fast for the power, 22 mph with a five, and not bad with the one. The canoe is scary fast with a three, the narrow beam and all, but the one is nice. My dad used the half with his sixteen foot schooner. { a converted cedar,with an oak keel, rowboat. Made locally, the type hull was the standard local fishboat for decades} got the hull free from a neighbor. Sat out for years, the keel had rotted away. Cedar was still good. Replaced the keel with custom made steel. Got it from the Des Moines firm that made the Gateway Arch, at about the same time. They had two jobs that year. Casady I knew that Grumman built boats but did n not know that they had built engines also. I just assumed that hey were one of the early outboard motor makers that disappeared in the early on. In looking things up I did discover that Ole Evenrude was not the first maker of out boards, which is sort of a standard belief here. There was actually an earlier builder who appeared to be fairly successful but still disappeared fairly early on. Waterman built up top 1,000 engines a year as far back as 1905. Aluminum was the first nail in the wooden boat market and when GRP came along it pretty much killed the wooden boat makers. Back in the days of wooden working boats all the lobster boats were cedar on oak frames. From talking to the old folk the wood lasted but the galvanized boat nails holding it together only lasted 10 years, or so. . Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) I remember watching Enoch Winslow steaming the oak frames and forming them into the shapes that he needed. He used to build up to 40' boats. He would start one in the fall and it would be on the way to the water on or about Memorial Day. It was a one man operation and something to watch, especially when it was all planked and he rolled it over to finish it out. My dad's automobile garage was next door to his boat building shop. Most were Eldridge-McGinnis designs, but he made three or four of his own lines. Leanne When I was living in Maine all of the lobster boats were wooden boats with an underwater profile like a very shallow draft sailboat. They had a proper keel, although probably only 2 feet deep at the rudder, steam bent ribs and cedar planking and were built right side up. The tradition was to build a boat during the winter, fish it all summer, sell it in the fall and start on a new boat. I was privileged to know a 80 year old fisherman who was still living this way, pulling 50 traps a day, although he was, when I knew him, semi retired (and the price of lobsters was high) so he had not built a boat in several years. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
But millionaire's yachts don't really tell the story. Where are all the people that used to build Sharpys, Friendship Sloops,Chesapeake Skipjack, Dorys, Skiffs and all the other wooden working boats - all gone. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) They have moved to Indonesia in places such as Sulawesi, the Molluccas and Kalimantan and a host of other places where they still built huge wooden trading ships in the same old manner on the beach. You must have seen some of these on your way through Bruce. The ancjors are still hauled up by man power on a horizontal windlass. A couple of years ago on Pankor Island near Lumut, an old boat builder, Eng Hok, was building a 65 footer traditional craft for a wealthy private client. It was built in the traditional junk manner, being planked around solid bulkheads set on the keel. When I was a young kid in Wellington, New Zealand I used to help a friend's fisherman father caulk his 40 foot double ender with cotton waste, red lead and hemp. Came in handy a few years ago when I was able to show a friend who had bought a genuine 100 year old Colin Archer pilot boat from a defunct US museum how to caulk his leaking boat. he had kept it afloat with sikaflex but the water eventually leaked past this. Couldn't find a genuine caulking iron anywhere in Sydney (Aus.) so made one out of a brick cutting bolster. cheers Peter |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:15:35 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: But millionaire's yachts don't really tell the story. Where are all the people that used to build Sharpys, Friendship Sloops,Chesapeake Skipjack, Dorys, Skiffs and all the other wooden working boats - all gone. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) They have moved to Indonesia in places such as Sulawesi, the Molluccas and Kalimantan and a host of other places where they still built huge wooden trading ships in the same old manner on the beach. You must have seen some of these on your way through Bruce. The ancjors are still hauled up by man power on a horizontal windlass. A couple of years ago on Pankor Island near Lumut, an old boat builder, Eng Hok, was building a 65 footer traditional craft for a wealthy private client. It was built in the traditional junk manner, being planked around solid bulkheads set on the keel. When I was a young kid in Wellington, New Zealand I used to help a friend's fisherman father caulk his 40 foot double ender with cotton waste, red lead and hemp. Came in handy a few years ago when I was able to show a friend who had bought a genuine 100 year old Colin Archer pilot boat from a defunct US museum how to caulk his leaking boat. he had kept it afloat with sikaflex but the water eventually leaked past this. Couldn't find a genuine caulking iron anywhere in Sydney (Aus.) so made one out of a brick cutting bolster. cheers Peter Sorry to disillusion you but they "didn't move to Indonesia -- those guys had been there since the Portuguese, or before. True that they are still built on the beach and the lines laid out by eye but the sails disappeared at least twenty years ago. All the pinisiq have engines these days. Progress! I could tell a long story about taking some foreign engineers down to the harbor at Cirebon only to find that all the romantic Schooners were now motor vessels. The only way I saved any face was a smaller lanteen rigged vessel loaded to the waterline with bamboo came creeping into the harbor under sail, sailed directly across the harbor headed for a creek where a number of these vessels were moored and as they approached the mouth of the creek the (obviously) youngest crew member dove over the side, swam ashore and belayed a line around a tree. The boat came to the end of the line, turned into the wind and coasted into the creek -- do it every day, right? If you want to see old time boat building come to Thailand. At afternoon tide they bring a fishing boat up the marine railway at the shipyard in Phuket. The sanders and the power saws go all night. At day break the caulking crews move in. These all seem to be extended families, Father, mother, sons in law, etc. They use the same sort of caulking irons that I saw in an 80 year old boat builder's shop in Maine years ago but they don't use the hammer. They use a hatchet with a welded pipe handle that is used to drive the iron and the sharp edge is used as an opening iron to spread the seam a bit. The women folk sit in the shade and rub some sort of orange paste into the cotton -- I assume sort of red lead kind of stuff. Send the safety people right round the bend with that act. Lead? Ahaaaaaa. Come afternoon tide and the boat is fresh painted, caulked and ready to go back in the water. Eng Hok was a Chinese anyway. And if it was traditional teak it certainly was a millionaire he was building it for. I've seen some of that stuff 24 X 24 inches by, say, 30 feet in the fishing boat yards. Of course, it is smuggled Burmese wood but can you imagine what legal duty paid teak timbers that size would cost. For a fishing boat? Enough. Where are you now. Back in N.Z. as, "Honey can you take out the garbage?" Or swanking around Central America as Captain Peter? Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
Sorry to disillusion you but they "didn't move to Indonesia -- those guys had been there since the Portuguese, or before. Bruce, Merely a "tongue in cheek" remark. They have been there long before the Portugese as the Molluccans have been using these boats to trade with the Aborigines of northern Australia since before Europeans ventured near these waters. They bought beche de la mare or sea dried cucumbers and pearls in a peaceful annual trade. Don't know what they exchanged for them though. I presume that there was no merchant bank system in the area at the time, possibly because there were no computers. I know that there is reference to these boats and trade with South East Asia from Tang and Sung dynasty times. Eng Hok was a Chinese anyway. And if it was traditional teak it certainly was a millionaire he was building it for. I've seen some of that stuff 24 X 24 inches by, say, 30 feet in the fishing boat yards. Of course, it is smuggled Burmese wood but can you imagine what legal duty paid teak timbers that size would cost. For a fishing boat? No it wasn't teak - some Indonesian timber species. I have been on a lot of these traditionally lined Indonesian barter trade cargo boats. at Butterworth wharf along from our Customs base I spent about 2 hours one day carting bags of rice on my shoulders off a truck and down a very narrow bouncy plank into the hold. I just wanted to see what it felt like - damn hard work, especially in the heat and humidity. Indonesia has high duties on the import of rice and thus rice - low grade quality - is imported into Malaysia from India and then transhipped into the kargo kapals to be smuggled into Sumatera. The crews are very friendly and are always happy to show you around. I guess that i have the advantage of being Matsalleh and also of my surname (anglicised from the Greek) which is a common Indonesian first name - always a conversation point At sea on patrol Customs stops many of these barter trade boats and examine their cargo which is bound for Malaysia - fresh fish in ice, vegetables, water melons etc. - great for the patrol boat crew as they can buy fresh food. The bottoms of the ice water chests have to be probed as are all hideable spaces on board. The engines are dry exhaust Chinese diesels and the heads are an open enclosed to waist height squat board over the stern. You must be familiar with these. I admire the way that they manouvre. They may be four or five abreast in port. The inner one against the wharf wants to get out. By the user of lines and sheer prop power they manage to swing the outer boats upstream and move out. Butterworth has a host of old black wooden lighters that I though were derelict and unused until I saw them unloading bulk Indian sugar from a freighter moored in the stream. A tug towed them upriver past our yacht. Enough. Where are you now. Back in N.Z. as, "Honey can you take out the garbage?" Or swanking around Central America as Captain Peter? Yep! it's "Honey, take out the garbage", but in Sydney. I also go back home to Penang via KL. every three or four weeks I plan to head back to Curacao possibly in January. It's a damned lie!! I have never swanked in my life. I don't own spats for my shoes and don't have a gold tipped cane - at least that is my image of swanking. cheers Peter Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
More proof that Bruce on the Bangkok Dock is no sailor
On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:53:10 +1000, Herodotus
wrote: Sorry to disillusion you but they "didn't move to Indonesia -- those guys had been there since the Portuguese, or before. Bruce, Merely a "tongue in cheek" remark. They have been there long before the Portugese as the Molluccans have been using these boats to trade with the Aborigines of northern Australia since before Europeans ventured near these waters. They bought beche de la mare or sea dried cucumbers and pearls in a peaceful annual trade. Don't know what they exchanged for them though. I presume that there was no merchant bank system in the area at the time, possibly because there were no computers. I know that there is reference to these boats and trade with South East Asia from Tang and Sung dynasty times. Nope, wrong again :-( The word Pinisq that I used (usually spelled as pinisi) had a European, usually schooner, rig on a native hull so these specific boats post dated the Portuguese. Eng Hok was a Chinese anyway. And if it was traditional teak it certainly was a millionaire he was building it for. I've seen some of No it wasn't teak - some Indonesian timber species. We had a project to inspect a oil supply base on an island about half way between Balikpapan and Suribaya (forgot the name) to see whether it was reasonable to rebuild it. In any event due to the island being an atoll there was a pretty long jetty and a dock at the end. After we did our inspection and did the numbers we made out presentation to the Oil Companies. The deck of the dock was in really poor shape and we had proposed a pre cast concrete deck to replace it. During the presentation one of the engineers suggested that we consider "Iron wood" in place of the pre cast concrete. So we costed it out. I had a bloke who had been working for timber companies in Indonesia for twenty years or more and spoke the lingo like a native, go down to the Buggis harbor in Jakarta and talk with the lads. The up shoot was that even using illegally cut wood, smuggled to the island, the wood was nearly twice the cost of the pre cast concrete -- which we duly reported. The crews are very friendly and are always happy to show you around. I guess that i have the advantage of being Matsalleh and also of my surname (anglicised from the Greek) which is a common Indonesian first name - always a conversation point Muhammid? Ali? Abu Bakar?. At sea on patrol Customs stops many of these barter trade boats and examine their cargo which is bound for Malaysia - fresh fish in ice, vegetables, water melons etc. - great for the patrol boat crew as they can buy fresh food. The bottoms of the ice water chests have to be probed as are all hideable spaces on board. The engines are dry exhaust Chinese diesels and the heads are an open enclosed to waist height squat board over the stern. You must be familiar with these. We had a project manager who was a wooden boat lover on a job down in Buggis Land who got pretty friendly with some of the captains and crews. They were doing a lot of monsoon sailing back and forth to Irian Jaya, I assume for either spices or alligator hides as they wouldn't talk much about the cargo. Just that it was a year trip, N.E. going down and S.W. coming back - in 25 foot boats? He also talked to a bunch of the Schooner men. At that time they were still sailing, and asked them where they went? "To Singapore". "Oh, what do you carry?" "Oh, cement, rebar and rattan mostly." (All forbidden to be exported, by the way.) "And, what do you bring back?" "Well, you know, vidios, TVs, that kind of stuff." "And you offload at Jakarta?" "Well, near Jakarta". I admire the way that they manouvre. They may be four or five abreast in port. The inner one against the wharf wants to get out. By the user of lines and sheer prop power they manage to swing the outer boats upstream and move out. Butterworth has a host of old black wooden lighters that I though were derelict and unused until I saw them unloading bulk Indian sugar from a freighter moored in the stream. A tug towed them upriver past our yacht. I really have never been to Butterworth and always thought that was Pinang's reason for being there, as a port. Enough. Where are you now. Back in N.Z. as, "Honey can you take out the garbage?" Or swanking around Central America as Captain Peter? Yep! it's "Honey, take out the garbage", but in Sydney. I also go back home to Penang via KL. every three or four weeks I don't think that would work at my house. "Honey, I'm off for far eastern places. Call if there are any problems." She'd be there waiting when I arrived. I plan to head back to Curacao possibly in January. It's a damned lie!! I have never swanked in my life. I don't own spats for my shoes and don't have a gold tipped cane - at least that is my image of swanking. Well those wide legged British shorts and a pith helmet will do if you have nothing else but remember that gentlemen do keep their tie tied. Even in the colonies one must keep up appearances, you know. Oh, by the way, I got those horrible pictures and will answer as soon as I can think of something appropriate. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
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