Survey question
 

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard

Survey question
 

cavelamb himself wrote in news:ZWNvi.17489
$SV4.5430@trnddc08:

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?



You don't expect a old fat guy, swaggering around like Hitler in Sperry
Topsiders, floppy Panama Jack hat and expensive yacht club clothes, to
climb the mast and know what he's looking at just because he's charging
you hundreds of dollars for a few minutes of his time walking around the
boat, do you?

You certainly don't expect him to show up in DIRTY COVERALLS ready to
really dig around under the engine to see how much is left of the
stringers/hull/engine mounts/leaky things, either, right?

One of them got ****ed at me when I asked him if he wasn't going to get
those nice clothes and shoes all dirty doing a proper inspection in the
bilge of an old Hatteras down our docks. The guy who hired him heard me
ask him and asked me what I was talking about. My reply was, "How is
anyone going to see what the engine, plumbing and electrical problems are
without getting all dirty LOOKING for them? He doesn't look clairvoyant
to me."

Someone needs to throw those goddamned hats overboard, kick their sorry
asses and tell 'em to get to work doing what buyers are paying them to
do. It's not about looking like the bogus Commodore of the yacht club.

I think surveyors should look just like engine mechanics coming down the
dock. It'd also be nice if they had half the mechanic's brains and
experience, too.

Survey question
 

Larry wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in news:ZWNvi.17489
$SV4.5430@trnddc08:


It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?




You don't expect a old fat guy, swaggering around like Hitler in Sperry
Topsiders, floppy Panama Jack hat and expensive yacht club clothes, to
climb the mast and know what he's looking at just because he's charging
you hundreds of dollars for a few minutes of his time walking around the
boat, do you?

You certainly don't expect him to show up in DIRTY COVERALLS ready to
really dig around under the engine to see how much is left of the
stringers/hull/engine mounts/leaky things, either, right?

One of them got ****ed at me when I asked him if he wasn't going to get
those nice clothes and shoes all dirty doing a proper inspection in the
bilge of an old Hatteras down our docks. The guy who hired him heard me
ask him and asked me what I was talking about. My reply was, "How is
anyone going to see what the engine, plumbing and electrical problems are
without getting all dirty LOOKING for them? He doesn't look clairvoyant
to me."

Someone needs to throw those goddamned hats overboard, kick their sorry
asses and tell 'em to get to work doing what buyers are paying them to
do. It's not about looking like the bogus Commodore of the yacht club.

I think surveyors should look just like engine mechanics coming down the
dock. It'd also be nice if they had half the mechanic's brains and
experience, too.


Well, now. I certaintly can't argue with your fine rant, larry.

But...

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:ZWNvi.17489$SV4.5430@trnddc08...
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a
trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy,
but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the
price
as appropriate...


1984 means it's 27 years old. Yes, all the standing rigging needs to be
replaced. Don't waste money on a "professional rigger" checking it
because he'll tell you the same thing.

It's not all that expensive if you do it yourself one shroud or stay at
a time and use Sta-Lok mechanical terminals and top-of-the-line 1 x 19
wire. But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do
that first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time
involves many trips up the mast.

Wilbur Hubbard

Survey question
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:05:01 +0000, Larry wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in news:ZWNvi.17489
$SV4.5430@trnddc08:

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?



You don't expect a old fat guy, swaggering around like Hitler in Sperry
Topsiders, floppy Panama Jack hat and expensive yacht club clothes, to
climb the mast and know what he's looking at just because he's charging
you hundreds of dollars for a few minutes of his time walking around the
boat, do you?

You certainly don't expect him to show up in DIRTY COVERALLS ready to
really dig around under the engine to see how much is left of the
stringers/hull/engine mounts/leaky things, either, right?

One of them got ****ed at me when I asked him if he wasn't going to get
those nice clothes and shoes all dirty doing a proper inspection in the
bilge of an old Hatteras down our docks. The guy who hired him heard me
ask him and asked me what I was talking about. My reply was, "How is
anyone going to see what the engine, plumbing and electrical problems are
without getting all dirty LOOKING for them? He doesn't look clairvoyant
to me."

Someone needs to throw those goddamned hats overboard, kick their sorry
asses and tell 'em to get to work doing what buyers are paying them to
do. It's not about looking like the bogus Commodore of the yacht club.

I think surveyors should look just like engine mechanics coming down the
dock. It'd also be nice if they had half the mechanic's brains and
experience, too.

Funny stuff, Larry. And I agree. Five marine surveyors are required
if you can't do it yourself:
Rigging - qualified rigger/sailor
Engine - qualified engine mechanic
Plumbing - qualified plumber
Electrical - qualified electrician
Structure - qualified hull tech
Then get the optional "official surveyor" if you need him for
insurance.
You could get the first 5 for a beer each if you know them, or
50 bucks each if you don't. Probably save you some money and
surprises in the long run.

--Vic

Survey question
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:05:01 +0000, Larry wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote in news:ZWNvi.17489
$SV4.5430@trnddc08:

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?


You don't expect a old fat guy, swaggering around like Hitler in Sperry
Topsiders, floppy Panama Jack hat and expensive yacht club clothes, to
climb the mast and know what he's looking at just because he's charging
you hundreds of dollars for a few minutes of his time walking around the
boat, do you?

You certainly don't expect him to show up in DIRTY COVERALLS ready to
really dig around under the engine to see how much is left of the
stringers/hull/engine mounts/leaky things, either, right?

One of them got ****ed at me when I asked him if he wasn't going to get
those nice clothes and shoes all dirty doing a proper inspection in the
bilge of an old Hatteras down our docks. The guy who hired him heard me
ask him and asked me what I was talking about. My reply was, "How is
anyone going to see what the engine, plumbing and electrical problems are
without getting all dirty LOOKING for them? He doesn't look clairvoyant
to me."

Someone needs to throw those goddamned hats overboard, kick their sorry
asses and tell 'em to get to work doing what buyers are paying them to
do. It's not about looking like the bogus Commodore of the yacht club.

I think surveyors should look just like engine mechanics coming down the
dock. It'd also be nice if they had half the mechanic's brains and
experience, too.

Funny stuff, Larry. And I agree. Five marine surveyors are required
if you can't do it yourself:
Rigging - qualified rigger/sailor
Engine - qualified engine mechanic
Plumbing - qualified plumber
Electrical - qualified electrician
Structure - qualified hull tech
Then get the optional "official surveyor" if you need him for
insurance.
You could get the first 5 for a beer each if you know them, or
50 bucks each if you don't. Probably save you some money and
surprises in the long run.

--Vic

You certainly won't get a good rigger out here (So. Calif.) to go aloft
and really inspect everything for $50.

Alan Gomes

Survey question
 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 19:13:37 -0700, Alan Gomes wrote:

You certainly won't get a good rigger out here (So. Calif.) to go aloft
and really inspect everything for $50.

More like $85/hour in most places, minimum 2 or 3 guys if anyone's
going aloft.

Truth is, it is very difficult to properly inspect everthing with the
rig still in the boat. Having a professional rigger go aloft is
better than nothing however.

A lot of surveyors will inspect from the ground using binoculars to
look for obvious signs of wear like broken wires but that is about all
they can do. Usually there will be words in the survey report to that
effect.

Survey question
 

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do
that first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time
involves many trips up the mast.

Mast steps are for amateurs Wilbur. You should know that. They
weaken the mast, foul halyards and rip sails.

Survey question
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:52:09 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard


The statement is simply an "out" for the surveyor. It means that he
didn't inspect the rigging.

Having said that, have a good friend who is a Lloyd's Inspector and
does frequent inspection of VLCC, etc., usually to determine what
repairs will be required to have the vessel pass class inspection,
whether for sale or modification, repair, etc..

He inspects the hull, tanks, piping and valves, tank venting, steering
gear, in short the mechanical portion of the ship. He does not inspect
the electronics or radios.

So, it is not unusual, in the commercial world, for a surveyor to
inspect only certain portions of a vessel. However -- when you
contract with Lloyd's for a survey you will sign a contract that
specify in excruciating detail exactly what they will inspect for.

To answer you question though, yes, if the boat is close to ten years
old I would have the rigging inspected.

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Survey question
 

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

1984 means it's 27 years old. Yes, all the standing rigging needs to be
replaced. Don't waste money on a "professional rigger" checking it
because he'll tell you the same thing.

It's not all that expensive if you do it yourself one shroud or stay at
a time and use Sta-Lok mechanical terminals and top-of-the-line 1 x 19
wire. But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do
that first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time
involves many trips up the mast.

Wilbur Hubbard


That was my read on it as well.

But the survey says the recommended inspection was "done"..
But not what was found...

I figure the age + the salt = it needs to be replaced.

We'll adjust the price accordingly.

There was a link dropped here to an interesting (actually down right
scary! ) article about the corrosion that develops inside connectors
due to salt water contact.

Wasn't that long ago, but no idea where it went now.

Richard

Survey question
 

Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do
that first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time
involves many trips up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...

Survey question
 

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:ZWNvi.17489$SV4.5430@trnddc08...
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

It's fairly normal. Most surveyors don't truly inspect the rigging at the
top or at the spreaders. If the rigging is over 10 yrs old or is showing
signs, then it's time to replace it. You could hire someone to climb and
inspect, but a lot can be seen with binoculars. It shouldn't be *that*
expensive, but neither is it cheap. My rigging was fine, but had the
forestay replaced since I was adding a furler anyway. I also had the
lifelines replaced at the same time. They were ready.


And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard






--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:xnQvi.2410$jy5.679@trnddc07...
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do that first
because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time involves many trips
up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...



Sure.. it's only money. :-) Most things will be obvious to someone who
regularly does rigging work, and you can probably find such a person to go
aloft.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Survey question
 

Capt. JG wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:ZWNvi.17489$SV4.5430@trnddc08...

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?


It's fairly normal. Most surveyors don't truly inspect the rigging at the
top or at the spreaders. If the rigging is over 10 yrs old or is showing
signs, then it's time to replace it. You could hire someone to climb and
inspect, but a lot can be seen with binoculars. It shouldn't be *that*
expensive, but neither is it cheap. My rigging was fine, but had the
forestay replaced since I was adding a furler anyway. I also had the
lifelines replaced at the same time. They were ready.



Thanks, Cap'n

Survey question
 

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 03:42:13 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:

wrote:


The statement is simply an "out" for the surveyor. It means that he
didn't inspect the rigging.

Having said that, have a good friend who is a Lloyd's Inspector and
does frequent inspection of VLCC, etc., usually to determine what
repairs will be required to have the vessel pass class inspection,
whether for sale or modification, repair, etc..

He inspects the hull, tanks, piping and valves, tank venting, steering
gear, in short the mechanical portion of the ship. He does not inspect
the electronics or radios.

So, it is not unusual, in the commercial world, for a surveyor to
inspect only certain portions of a vessel. However -- when you
contract with Lloyd's for a survey you will sign a contract that
specify in excruciating detail exactly what they will inspect for.

To answer you question though, yes, if the boat is close to ten years
old I would have the rigging inspected.

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)


27 years old.
(and we so dreaded 1984 coming! Has it been that long already?)

I think it just needs to be replaced.

Say, is thee a Lloyd's of Texas???

No the Lloyd's I was referring to was Lloyd's of London,, in this case
a ship classification and certifying company.

It seems like the general advise is to change stainless rigging every
ten years but I'm inclined to believe that is more of a local legend
then anything else. I have personally seen USAF aircraft with current
inspections that had brass safety wire on the turnbuckles, a practice
that had been abandoned by the Air Force more then twenty years ago.,
so it is possible that the wire itself is not the problem.

If I were worried about the rigging then I'd either hire a reputable
guy to inspect it or at the very least get some good cleaner and the
strongest magnifying glass you can find and clean the lower terminals
and examine them. Usually the lower terminals tend to fail before
uppers as they are usually pretty well soaked with seawater most of
the time. If you see any crack in the lower terminals, no matter how
small, it is time to replace the rigging.

My personal advise would be to pull the mast and lay it down as there
is more to rigging then just cables. I've seen mast head fittings
cracked, through bolts holding the lower stay plates ready to break, a
welded on spinnaker boom lift bracket cracked and ready to fall off.

Also, while the mast is down you can check the internal wiring and
make sure that is in good shape and that the conduit is still riveted
in .

Re mast steps recommended by another poster. If you can afford the
kind that fold into the mast then by all means install them but if you
are contemplating the big triangular stirrups that are riveted to the
outside of the mast then consider -- you will need to rig some sort of
lacing to prevent lines from getting wrapped around the steps -- they
are easy to run up and down but a real pain in the neck. I know, I've
got 'em on my boat.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Survey question
 

Why don't you just call your surveyor and ask him?

You must realize of course, that if this is a survey the seller gave
you its worth about as much as him saying "My brother-in-law thinks
its a real good boat." There are two types of surveys, a proper
survey where the buyer wants to find every little thing that has gone
bad, will go bad, and might go bad in the boat; and an insurance
survey which says that the boat probably won't sink or blow up in the
next 2 years, and isn't concerned with the all the minor things that
are falling off (i.e. not covered by insurance). The insurance
surveyor is often found by the seller's broker when the buyer realizes
he'll need the survey for insurance. He is a "house surveyor" and
wouldn't remain one long if he convinced buyers not to buy. On top of
that, in most places you don't need a license or certification to call
yourself a surveyor.

Before you seriously look at boats you should find a surveyor that
you're comfortable with, and have a discussion about the type of boat
you're looking for, and what he recommends as conditions for the
survey. For instance, if the boat is on the hard, can he do a proper
engine survey? Might he require invasive tests that need the seller's
permission?




* cavelamb himself wrote, On 8/12/2007 8:52 PM:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Survey question
 

cavelamb himself wrote:

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

Yes but it is more of a disclaimer than anything.

When we had our boat surveyed before purchase, we got Peter Hartoff
who several people recommended as the best around here. He did
everything except the rigging. He did an in water survey first and
then had us haul the boat, and did the hull, and then he took the boat
out for a sea trial. We had told him what use we intended to make of
the boat, so his survey was based on that.

When the marina wanted proof of insurance several years later, and the
insurance company wanted a survey first, we got another guy, and he
used the previous survey to check that we'd done the A list things and
the B list things and basically looked to see that nothing else had
gone terribly long in the interval. He did the survey with the boat
in the water - we didn't haul it for him.

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".
But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

Who marked it 'done'. The only way to find out is to ask. Although
they may not tell you.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

I'm getting from your question that you didn't order this survey -
that it was a previous survey done by the current or previous owner
(??) IMHO for most major purchases you should not rely on a previous
survey, because you don't know what purpose the survey was done for -
was it for insurance like our second survey, or was it for a previous
sale that fell through, or what.

If this IS your own survey, then you need to ask the surveyor what was
'done'.

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:xnQvi.2410$jy5.679@trnddc07...
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do that
first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time involves
many trips up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...


Cranes are expensive. And how long are you going to have to sit in the
yard paying out the wazoo daily while you're working on the rigging. You
can do your own rigging while anchored or moored and it costs nothing
but your time and labor. Not only that but it's safer. At any rate, mast
steps are necessary.

But, if you desire to re-do the internal wiring, and possibly sheaves
and running rigging and standing rigging all at the same time, lowering
the mast might be the way to go.

Any cruising boat should have mast steps. Unlike what Wayne B said about
them, the right kind of steps don't foul halyards and don't rip sails.
Get the folding steps. They are the best. You can install them yourself
with simple tools one at a times using the one you just installed to
stand on to install the next one. When cruising you need a way to get to
the masthead for inspections and repairs and you need to go to the
masthead frequently. It's foolish to have no way to inspect, repair,
install systems at the masthead.

http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=81324F

Wilbur Hubbard

Survey question
 

wrote in message
...

Re mast steps recommended by another poster. If you can afford the
kind that fold into the mast then by all means install them but if you
are contemplating the big triangular stirrups that are riveted to the
outside of the mast then consider -- you will need to rig some sort of
lacing to prevent lines from getting wrapped around the steps -- they
are easy to run up and down but a real pain in the neck. I know, I've
got 'em on my boat.


http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=81324F

These are what REAL cruising sailors use these days. They are what Capt.
Neal has on his fine blue water cruiser so they must be the best. . .

Wilbur Hubbard

Survey question
 

Want an easy way to go up the mast?
Get a Harken # 1549 and a Harken # 1550 and I'll let you figure it
out from there.
Gordon

Survey question
 

Rosalie B. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?


Yes but it is more of a disclaimer than anything.

When we had our boat surveyed before purchase, we got Peter Hartoff
who several people recommended as the best around here. He did
everything except the rigging. He did an in water survey first and
then had us haul the boat, and did the hull, and then he took the boat
out for a sea trial. We had told him what use we intended to make of
the boat, so his survey was based on that.

When the marina wanted proof of insurance several years later, and the
insurance company wanted a survey first, we got another guy, and he
used the previous survey to check that we'd done the A list things and
the B list things and basically looked to see that nothing else had
gone terribly long in the interval. He did the survey with the boat
in the water - we didn't haul it for him.

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".
But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.


Who marked it 'done'. The only way to find out is to ask. Although
they may not tell you.

Bingo! That was my question as well.

Which has, so far, not been answered..

Which is why I'm pestering you nice people...

Yes, this is a previous survey - four years ago.
But I don't know the intended purpose yet.

If this deal goes further, I will have a pre-purchase survey done.

This is just the starting point.
And, of course, my first Big Boat Buy.

A boat this old, I don't expect to be in like new condition.
Most people just don't bother (sad).

There are a lot of things I can handle myself,
There are a lot of things I can't - and would have to hire out.

But I don't want to pay NEW prices for worn out stuff if I can
avoid it.

Richard

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:KU%vi.1542$jU4.1225@trnddc02...
Rosalie B. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?


Yes but it is more of a disclaimer than anything. When we had our
boat surveyed before purchase, we got Peter Hartoff
who several people recommended as the best around here. He did
everything except the rigging. He did an in water survey first and
then had us haul the boat, and did the hull, and then he took the
boat
out for a sea trial. We had told him what use we intended to make of
the boat, so his survey was based on that. When the marina wanted
proof of insurance several years later, and the
insurance company wanted a survey first, we got another guy, and he
used the previous survey to check that we'd done the A list things
and
the B list things and basically looked to see that nothing else had
gone terribly long in the interval. He did the survey with the boat
in the water - we didn't haul it for him.

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".
But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.


Who marked it 'done'. The only way to find out is to ask. Although
they may not tell you.

Bingo! That was my question as well.

Which has, so far, not been answered..

Which is why I'm pestering you nice people...

Yes, this is a previous survey - four years ago.
But I don't know the intended purpose yet.

If this deal goes further, I will have a pre-purchase survey done.

This is just the starting point.
And, of course, my first Big Boat Buy.

A boat this old, I don't expect to be in like new condition.
Most people just don't bother (sad).

There are a lot of things I can handle myself,
There are a lot of things I can't - and would have to hire out.

But I don't want to pay NEW prices for worn out stuff if I can
avoid it.

Richard

I'm afraid you're off on the wrong track, Richard. If you're buying a
fixer-upper it's going to end up costing you about the same as if you
bought a new boat is you pay somebody to do all the fixing up. Boat
yards charge outrageous hourly rates in case you've never partaken of
their services.

The only way paying somebody else to do the work is an economically
viable route is if you happen to be making very large amounts of money
yourself. In other words if you make 200 dollars an hour then it makes
sense to pay somebody 100 dollars an hour to do your fixer-upping work
for you.

If you buy the boat keep a log of any and all expenses. Initial cost,
taxes, registration fees, title fees, documentation fees, etc. Include
the survey fees. Include anything you spend money on directed at the
boat. This would include yard fees, parts, labor fees etc. It doesn't
take long before a boat you "thought" you were paying 50 grand for
becomes a boat you're paying a hundred grand for. You can almost buy a
new boat for that and spend your time sailing instead of fixing upping.

If you make low wages, then and only then does it become smart to buy a
cheap used boat and fix it up. Paying somebody else will end you up with
a cheap used boat that costs about the same as a cheap new boat. What's
Catalina get for a new 34-footer these days? Maybe last years model new
that hasn't sold yet?

Wilbur Hubbard

Survey question
 

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:KU%vi.1542$jU4.1225@trnddc02...

Rosalie B. wrote:

cavelamb himself wrote:


So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?



Yes but it is more of a disclaimer than anything. When we had our
boat surveyed before purchase, we got Peter Hartoff
who several people recommended as the best around here. He did
everything except the rigging. He did an in water survey first and
then had us haul the boat, and did the hull, and then he took the boat
out for a sea trial. We had told him what use we intended to make of
the boat, so his survey was based on that. When the marina wanted
proof of insurance several years later, and the
insurance company wanted a survey first, we got another guy, and he
used the previous survey to check that we'd done the A list things and
the B list things and basically looked to see that nothing else had
gone terribly long in the interval. He did the survey with the boat
in the water - we didn't haul it for him.

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".
But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.



Who marked it 'done'. The only way to find out is to ask. Although
they may not tell you.


Bingo! That was my question as well.

Which has, so far, not been answered..

Which is why I'm pestering you nice people...

Yes, this is a previous survey - four years ago.
But I don't know the intended purpose yet.

If this deal goes further, I will have a pre-purchase survey done.

This is just the starting point.
And, of course, my first Big Boat Buy.

A boat this old, I don't expect to be in like new condition.
Most people just don't bother (sad).

There are a lot of things I can handle myself,
There are a lot of things I can't - and would have to hire out.

But I don't want to pay NEW prices for worn out stuff if I can
avoid it.

Richard


I'm afraid you're off on the wrong track, Richard. If you're buying a
fixer-upper it's going to end up costing you about the same as if you
bought a new boat is you pay somebody to do all the fixing up. Boat
yards charge outrageous hourly rates in case you've never partaken of
their services.

The only way paying somebody else to do the work is an economically
viable route is if you happen to be making very large amounts of money
yourself. In other words if you make 200 dollars an hour then it makes
sense to pay somebody 100 dollars an hour to do your fixer-upping work
for you.

If you buy the boat keep a log of any and all expenses. Initial cost,
taxes, registration fees, title fees, documentation fees, etc. Include
the survey fees. Include anything you spend money on directed at the
boat. This would include yard fees, parts, labor fees etc. It doesn't
take long before a boat you "thought" you were paying 50 grand for
becomes a boat you're paying a hundred grand for. You can almost buy a
new boat for that and spend your time sailing instead of fixing upping.

If you make low wages, then and only then does it become smart to buy a
cheap used boat and fix it up. Paying somebody else will end you up with
a cheap used boat that costs about the same as a cheap new boat. What's
Catalina get for a new 34-footer these days? Maybe last years model new
that hasn't sold yet?

Wilbur Hubbard

I've looked at a few "fixer-uppers" and completely agree with you about
winding up paying more than it might cost for one in better condition.

After the first hand experience of bringing my little eighteen back to
life I am absolutely sure I don't want to go through that with ne twice
the size!!! What was fun is moderation would be a money pit ordeal at
this scale.

That's the main reason I brought all this up here - where there are a
lot of people who have been through the process and have learned what's
what...

Mostly I've been looking in the 30 foot range. I have a pretty good
feel for the Catalina 30's - after a year on their list reading about
what others have to do to keep them going.

While I think the 30 would make a fine coastal boat, I'm not so
convinced it is really roomy enough to live aboard comfortably.

This particular 36 is looking better as we discuss it more.

I'm in touch with the owners, rather than an agent. And they are
answering my questions. It just takes time some times for the
lady to get data from hubby and reply.

I think we are going to have to go see this boat in person...

I can't quite prices on a 34. But a new 36 goes $180 to $200
(or more!) depending on how it is equipped. At this level it
seems like everything is "optional" and "custom".

You can probably guess what those catch words do to prices...


Richard

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:FX1wi.476$5Q5.45@trnddc05...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
largish snip

I can't quote prices on a 34. But a new 36 goes $180 to $200
(or more!) depending on how it is equipped. At this level it
seems like everything is "optional" and "custom".

You can probably guess what those catch words do to prices...

Getting the base model is the way to go. You can add stuff as you need
it or want it.

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...k&cd=5&g l=us

Looks like 120 K or so for a new 34

Wilbur Hubbard

Survey question
 

On Aug 12, 8:52 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard

A good surveyor should go aloft and check the rigging himself . It
does not require a riggers expertise or a degree in metallurgy.

You may or may not need to replace your standing rigging. It would
help if you knew if it was original or not but even if it is it is not
necessarily due. If you plan on extensive cruising I would want to
know its age though.

You can inspect it yourself probably with more competence than your
average surveryor after doing a little online "how to" research. The
good news is most rigging problems involving corrosion are down low
not aloft.
Your main concerns are crevice corrosion, which you cannot inspect
without dissassembly of the suspect parts and no surveyor is going to
do this. The other main concern is crevice cracks and these you can
detect yourself with a magnifying glass and a lot of patience. There
are dyes you can rub into the stainless to help spot cracks.

That aside I were you I would hire a diesel mechanic to go over the
auxiliary. It is by far the most expensive thing to fix on the boat.
Then check for core rot in the deck. Again you can do this yourself.

Survey question
 

One more VERY important thing. Be absolutely sure your surveyor
checked for any core rot, especially in the deck.
This is big time expensive to fix if you hire the work out. Your deck
may or may not be cored but probably is.

Survey question
 

On 2007-08-12 20:52:09 -0400, cavelamb himself said:

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

As other said, yes.

As far as getting it inspected, if I were in your shoes, I would have
it done. In fact, I did and listened to the guy explain what he was
doing.

BUT I found that learning how to inspect the fittings (the weak link)
made me feel safer. I've not replaced ours, probably a bit older than
yours, except for the forestay (required when we got the furler.) I'm
comfortable with that where and how we sail, but would reconsider if
either changed. I also am a bit of a nut who uses his Loos gauge
several times a season to get an objective measurement of possible
problems. (That caught a bad bulkhead a few years ago.)

Your comfort level, though, is paramount. If you're nervous about the
integrity of the boat, you won't get as much enjoyment.

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Survey question
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
.. .
Why don't you just call your surveyor and ask him?

You must realize of course, that if this is a survey the seller gave you
its worth about as much as him saying "My brother-in-law thinks its a real
good boat." There are two types of surveys, a proper survey where the
buyer wants to find every little thing that has gone bad, will go bad, and
might go bad in the boat; and an insurance survey which says that the boat
probably won't sink or blow up in the next 2 years, and isn't concerned
with the all the minor things that are falling off (i.e. not covered by
insurance). The insurance surveyor is often found by the seller's broker
when the buyer realizes he'll need the survey for insurance. He is a
"house surveyor" and wouldn't remain one long if he convinced buyers not
to buy. On top of that, in most places you don't need a license or
certification to call yourself a surveyor.

Before you seriously look at boats you should find a surveyor that you're
comfortable with, and have a discussion about the type of boat you're
looking for, and what he recommends as conditions for the survey. For
instance, if the boat is on the hard, can he do a proper engine survey?
Might he require invasive tests that need the seller's permission?




* cavelamb himself wrote, On 8/12/2007 8:52 PM:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



Interesting.. when I bought my boat, I used a surveyor from several previous
buying experiences who I knew would be thorough. He sent his report at my
request directly to the insurance company. They called me and said he missed
a couple of things. (He didn't actually miss them, but did forget to write
them down.) So, he resubmitted and the insurance company was happy.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Survey question
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
.. .
Why don't you just call your surveyor and ask him?

You must realize of course, that if this is a survey the seller gave you
its worth about as much as him saying "My brother-in-law thinks its a
real good boat." There are two types of surveys, a proper survey where
the buyer wants to find every little thing that has gone bad, will go
bad, and might go bad in the boat; and an insurance survey which says
that the boat probably won't sink or blow up in the next 2 years, and
isn't concerned with the all the minor things that are falling off (i.e.
not covered by insurance). The insurance surveyor is often found by the
seller's broker when the buyer realizes he'll need the survey for
insurance. He is a "house surveyor" and wouldn't remain one long if he
convinced buyers not to buy. On top of that, in most places you don't
need a license or certification to call yourself a surveyor.

Before you seriously look at boats you should find a surveyor that you're
comfortable with, and have a discussion about the type of boat you're
looking for, and what he recommends as conditions for the survey. For
instance, if the boat is on the hard, can he do a proper engine survey?
Might he require invasive tests that need the seller's permission?




* cavelamb himself wrote, On 8/12/2007 8:52 PM:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



Interesting.. when I bought my boat, I used a surveyor from several
previous buying experiences who I knew would be thorough. He sent his
report at my request directly to the insurance company. They called me and
said he missed a couple of things. (He didn't actually miss them, but did
forget to write them down.) So, he resubmitted and the insurance company
was happy.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


If you intent it to find out what is wrong with a boat that you want to
purchase a proper survey is the way to go.
However, this is not a guaranty that nothing is wrong with the boat. A
surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the naked eyes
and today's technology. This is good enough for the insurance companies.
More so when the surveyor tells you that the replacement or market value is
evaluated at so much that what the insurance want you to cover your boat for
the evaluated amount.

Survey question
 

If you intent it to find out what is wrong with a boat that you want to
purchase a proper survey is the way to go.
However, this is not a guaranty that nothing is wrong with the boat. A
surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the naked eyes
and today's technology. This is good enough for the insurance companies.
More so when the surveyor tells you that the replacement or market value is
evaluated at so much that what the insurance want you to cover your boat for
the evaluated amount.



Copy that/\.

This one says...

Market value $49K

Replacement Value $150K

By the way, for those playing along at home...

The rigging was replaced in 2004 - by the previous owners -
so say the current owners.

But thee doesn't seem to be amy documentation to that effect - yet.

Thank you guys (and gals!) for the information.

I think this in is worth looking at...

Richard

Survey question
 

wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
.. .
Why don't you just call your surveyor and ask him?

You must realize of course, that if this is a survey the seller gave you
its worth about as much as him saying "My brother-in-law thinks its a
real good boat." There are two types of surveys, a proper survey where
the buyer wants to find every little thing that has gone bad, will go
bad, and might go bad in the boat; and an insurance survey which says
that the boat probably won't sink or blow up in the next 2 years, and
isn't concerned with the all the minor things that are falling off (i.e.
not covered by insurance). The insurance surveyor is often found by the
seller's broker when the buyer realizes he'll need the survey for
insurance. He is a "house surveyor" and wouldn't remain one long if he
convinced buyers not to buy. On top of that, in most places you don't
need a license or certification to call yourself a surveyor.

Before you seriously look at boats you should find a surveyor that
you're comfortable with, and have a discussion about the type of boat
you're looking for, and what he recommends as conditions for the survey.
For instance, if the boat is on the hard, can he do a proper engine
survey? Might he require invasive tests that need the seller's
permission?




* cavelamb himself wrote, On 8/12/2007 8:52 PM:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the
price
as appropriate...

Richard




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



Interesting.. when I bought my boat, I used a surveyor from several
previous buying experiences who I knew would be thorough. He sent his
report at my request directly to the insurance company. They called me
and said he missed a couple of things. (He didn't actually miss them, but
did forget to write them down.) So, he resubmitted and the insurance
company was happy.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com


If you intent it to find out what is wrong with a boat that you want to
purchase a proper survey is the way to go.
However, this is not a guaranty that nothing is wrong with the boat. A
surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the naked
eyes and today's technology. This is good enough for the insurance
companies. More so when the surveyor tells you that the replacement or
market value is evaluated at so much that what the insurance want you to
cover your boat for the evaluated amount.



I agree. Sometimes, especially if you've worked with the surveyor
previously, you can read between the lines and find out a lot more about
your boat. Sometimes, it's just a matter of listening to him/her during the
survey. Nothing wrong with asking questions, since you're paying for it.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...


If you intent it to find out what is wrong with a boat that you want to
purchase a proper survey is the way to go.
However, this is not a guaranty that nothing is wrong with the boat. A
surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the naked
eyes and today's technology. This is good enough for the insurance
companies. More so when the surveyor tells you that the replacement or
market value is evaluated at so much that what the insurance want you to
cover your boat for the evaluated amount.

Copy that/\.

This one says...

Market value $49K

Replacement Value $150K

By the way, for those playing along at home...

The rigging was replaced in 2004 - by the previous owners -
so say the current owners.

But thee doesn't seem to be amy documentation to that effect - yet.

Thank you guys (and gals!) for the information.

I think this in is worth looking at...

Richard

PO should be able to tell you who did the work, and you could verify with
the rigger what was done.

Survey question
 

KLC Lewis wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

If you intent it to find out what is wrong with a boat that you want to
purchase a proper survey is the way to go.
However, this is not a guaranty that nothing is wrong with the boat. A
surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the naked
eyes and today's technology. This is good enough for the insurance
companies. More so when the surveyor tells you that the replacement or
market value is evaluated at so much that what the insurance want you to
cover your boat for the evaluated amount.

Copy that/\.

This one says...

Market value $49K

Replacement Value $150K

By the way, for those playing along at home...

The rigging was replaced in 2004 - by the previous owners -
so say the current owners.

But thee doesn't seem to be amy documentation to that effect - yet.

Thank you guys (and gals!) for the information.

I think this in is worth looking at...

Richard


PO should be able to tell you who did the work, and you could verify with
the rigger what was done.




The operative word here is _should_.

Problem is, the PO has Passed Away...

Survey question
 

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
KLC Lewis wrote:


PO should be able to tell you who did the work, and you could verify with
the rigger what was done.


The operative word here is _should_.

Problem is, the PO has Passed Away...



Oh, sorry. Have you contacted the undertaker?

Survey question
 

KLC Lewis wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

KLC Lewis wrote:


PO should be able to tell you who did the work, and you could verify with
the rigger what was done.


The operative word here is _should_.

Problem is, the PO has Passed Away...




Oh, sorry. Have you contacted the undertaker?


Nope. Before my time ")

Survey question
 

On 2007-08-14 19:03:07 -0400, cavelamb himself said:

A surveyor is only responsible for what he or she can find with the
naked eyes and today's technology. This is good enough for the
insurance companies. More so when the surveyor tells you that the
replacement or market value is evaluated at so much that what the
insurance want you to cover your boat for the evaluated amount.


Copy that/\.

This one says...

Market value $49K

Replacement Value $150K

Ours was MV of $15k, replacement $80k. Variance would be higher these
days as market value is in the $5k range now and new "replacement"
boats more expensive. At best, it makes us feel good that we didn't
waste that much money (no matter how much we spend to refit.(almost) )

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/