August 7 - Land, HO!
 

August 7 - Land, HO!

Yesterday was a mixture of slow sailing, with totally overcast skies,
light
winds, and lumpy/quartering seas, and motorsailing. I'd relieved Lydia
at
4:45AM, and she slept soundly for the first 5 or so hours, and then
went
back for an extended nap later in the day.

It was the typical cruising day - chat, watch for traffic, read,
relax, eat,
rinse, repeat. Unfortunately, the wind was so light as we approached
our
waypoint to turn to Beaufort, a heading which would make the wind at
our
back, that sails were useless, especially because we'd have to motor,
and
make the apparent wind (we're moving in the direction of the wind)
drop to
nothing. Worse, in the rolly seas, they banged around and weren't even
useful in roll stabilization. Therefore, we brought them all in and
turned
on the
Iron Genny (the diesel which replaces the thrust of our sails) and
motored
on into the night at 2000RPM and 5 knots - a pretty economical rate of
fuel
and speed.

With the engine running, of course, all electrical (well, all of them
after
we'd attended to the myriad of difficulties we'd faced in that
system!)
sources were available for use without concern for conservation, so we
continued to have all of our charging-sensitive items connected to the
power
grid, and all is well. We even got to grind our coffee with the
electrical
Starbucks grinder (we're not - a takeoff on Trekkies - Buckies, but
they
sell a very good grinder), instead of my usual 75 strokes on the West
Marine
manual grinder.

With the dying wind, the seas moderated, as well, becoming more a
matter of
relatively longer swells, and not so defined, so the rolling of the
boat
moderated in the night and I slept soundly all the way through to
Lydia's
shift change at 4:45.

She's evidently getting her sea legs, as, despite the nasty (for those
with
queasy stomachs - several different motions at once) seas, she was
fine
without any seasickness prevention. With any luck, working into it a
bit at
a time will get her to the point that she's ok in truly heavy weather.
This
is quite a change from the previously expected ability to only stand
brief
night watches, and a good preparation for our run up to NYC after we
leave
Norfolk.

Her concerns about reliance on stomach aids are mostly about the
various
side effects. Some affect your vision, some make you sleepy, and other
side
effects, all of which can compromise your ability to stand a competent
watch. Of course, if you're impaired without the aids, wishing you
were
dead is another side effect! Fortunately for me, I seem to be
relatively
(famous last words, and all that, so I'm cautious about how loudly I
say
that!) immune to mal de mer.

Last night's checkin with the Maritime Mobile Net involved a relay,
again.
I was able, barely, to hear the controller, in Phoenix AZ, and some of
the
other traffic. However, another controller (they rotate nights so that
no
one person has to take all the responsibility), in Miami, heard me
very
clearly, and relayed my information for me. Ironically, this was
someone
who'd previously had a Morgan Out Island 41 (Out Island is a very
popular
line of boats designed by Charley Morgan, the owner and architect of
the
early Morgan Yachts, all sharing the same visual features), but had
swallowed the anchor (went ashore) after years of living aboard and
cruising
it, and so knew the Morgan line very well. He'll be the controller
tonight,
and if we aren't deep into something else at the time, and our signal
is as
good as last night, we'll talk to him again when we're on the hook (at
anchor).

On another occasion where a relay was involved, he'd been the
moderator, and
I was still in FL waters, so he couldn't hear me at all. However,
someone
in Austin, TX got me just fine, and was able to pass that info along.
Those
of you who've been with us for a long time will recall that we'd been
concerned that our HF (High Frequency) radio, the SSB (Single Side
Band) and
HAM (amateur radio) set, wasn't transmitting. Last night's
conversation,
aside from it being "talk, over" and "response, over," might as well
have
been on the telephone, it was so clear.

So, while I've not had the opportunity to play with it like that, I'm
confident that our rig has the ability to span the globe, as they're
designed to do, and that our setup is effective in getting the signal
out.
It remains to return the base unit to the manufacturer to resolve
"voice clipping" - a fault at medium and high power transmissions -
which
causes interruptions in speech.

Yesterday saw only one porpoise sighting, and that was while I was
alone, so
I didn't go forward to see if he was playing in our bow. When there's
only
one on deck, or at night in any case, we wear harnesses and use
tethers to
our jacklines, webbing stretched from bow to stern, to make sure that
were
we to go overboard, we'd at least stay with the boat. However, that's
quite
a bit more cumbersome than just walking forward, so I gave that
particular
porpoise a miss :{))

Likewise, since we haven't had much dual time topsides, we've not been
fishing. Perhaps today, as Lydia gets back up, before we actually make
it
into Beaufort, we'll throw out a line to see if we can find our
dinner.

Our trip up and down the East Coast is a shakedown cruise. That is,
we're
trying to break anything which will break, while we're relatively
close,
have access to our towing policy, cell phone range and the many
chandleries
which are all over the coast, in order that it be attended to in calm,
non-emergency conditions. It's also intended to highlight any areas
that
need attention or even extensive work. Thus far, it's performed
marvelously, allowing us to find and kill several problems which would
have
been extremely more difficult to address out in the wilds of the
Bahamas and
beyond.

This leg of our trip, all of our systems are working well:

Our satellite receiver continues (while the computer's on) to deliver
real-time pictures of what's below the particular bird as it goes
overhead,
spanning continents and oceans between the various orbits (we can see
nearly
to the horizon with the antenna we have, allowing us, on the east
coast, to
see the West coast US and Mexico, and nearly to Africa to the East,
and from
the top of South America to, as we move North, nearly to the Pole).
We're
very comfortable with the thought that, as we *do* go to the hurricane
belt,
we'll have ample opportunity to see and watch any developing systems
as they
come.

Because of the ample sufficiency of power, we are also running the
fuel
polisher. That's a filter system which runs the fuel through it
continuously, returning it to the tank minus any junk or water it may
have
picked up along the way. While not as severe as during our trip home
from
Marathon, where we were rolling in a 40 degree arc, our 20 degree arc
from
side to side will allow for a good level of slosh in our almost-full
tank,
helping stir up any debris for capture. The polisher pulls about 25
gallons
per hour, whereas our engine's currently using only about 2/3 gallon
per
hour. Therefore, our engine will receive clean fuel. Well, actually,
I'd
certainly expect that the fuel is clean in any event, after all the
excitement of our wreck, but, we're running it anyway :{)) As well, we
have
a parallel system of engine filters which will allow us to change over
merely by the movement of a couple of valves, so if the regular engine
filter were to clog, we could recover and change it later, without
having to
do it in hot (engine was just on, recall!) and lumpy conditions.

Our radar continues to confirm that there has been no storm activity
anywhere near us, and notifies us if there's any traffic (any other
boats,
of any size) so that we can be sure we don't become debris in the wake
of
some freighter on autopilot with no watch nor radar alarm.

On that subject, one of our projects will be to ask a fellow cruiser
to see
how we show up on his radar. Our arch on the back of the boat, with
its
solar panels and all of its metal, should present a pretty good
reflective
target.

So, we're very happy with our home. Beaufort came on the radar horizon
about
noon - but Lydia came up about the same time, from her sleep, and
reminded
me that we wanted to go to Cape Lookout, a hook below Cape Hatteras.
In
that area are reported to be lots of sea turtle nests, so she'll be in
heaven...

We threw out the hook in the cove near Cape Lookout and lowered the
dinghy
to go exploring. However, along the way down, the stripper on the
windlass
(the part that makes the chain go down as you retrieve the anchor)
totally
jammed. Broken pieces of high-density plastic showed up in the area of
the
chain on the wheel, and nothing moved. So, I got out the tools and
took it
apart, revealing that it had broken. Ah, well. Just another day in the
life
of a full time cruiser.

Getting the anchor up now will involve (I'm awfully glad I have it!)
my
reaching down one of the original hawse holes (the original boat had
mostly
rope anchoring line and a bare windlass which allowed you to use two
anchors - a difference in the 45 and 46 models - but which required
manual
feeding of the line as it came in; that hole was available for me to
reach
under the windlass) and feeding the chain, link by link, so it didn't
jam in
the gypsy (the thing which fits the specific size of the chain,
allowing it
to control it) due to no stripper (that's the function of the broken
part -
directing the chain below rather than to keep going around in the
wheel). As
we left, I got a chance to demonstrate my extra-long arms, which did,
despite the nuisance factor, allow us to up-anchor relatively
uneventfully.
However, I digress...

We went to the museum of the lighthouse, one of the few remaining in
the US,
and got the tour of the entire area via story and pictures, as well as
a
short video. Because we'd arrived on the hook at 3:30, there wasn't
much
time before the museum closed, and we headed back to the boat. Lydia
made
dinner while I ran around in the dinghy, testing different motor
settings.
Our new dinghy is fun to ride, and if we're willing to wait a while
for it
to get up on plane in the motor-all-the-way-out position, it's very
quick.
To get it going quickly, however, requires the engine to be all the
way
down. That provides a considerably flatter ride, with the attendant
water
spray and slower speed as more of the boat's in the water. We'll have
fun
experimenting with both of us, and other passengers, to see what works
best
in all situations. With just one aboard, though, all the way up is
the
fastest and driest ride.

In the time between our going to the museum and my return for dinner,
the
wind had picked up notably. Where was this when we were on the way
here??!!
However, due to our being tucked in behind the sand dunes relatively
close
to the end of the cove, the water was quite calm. We did enjoy lots of
wind
power that night, of course, keeping our amp-hour usage to a minimum;
charging, overall.

Today (the 8th) as I write, it's honking outside, with winds in the
mid-teens to 20s. Lydia's off to search for sea turtles and otherwise
enjoy
the beach, and I'm assuming my usual position, that of chief mechanic
aboard. I've researched the part numbers for the replacements for the
windlass and set about other chores. By the time Lydia returns, I've
managed
to get several things accomplished, but not nearly all I'd set out to
do.
Some I've crossed off the list, and others will require a return
visit.

While I continued to work, Lydia returned and set to cleaning the
outside of
our boat as well as the dinghy itself. We are totally amazed at how
dirty
sea water seems to be, as there's no other place we can figure for all
the
dirt which adorns our topsides, right after our diligent scrubbing of
same
on each anchorage or dockage. Of course, like nearly any other
sailboat, we
have exhaust grime on our stern and immediately in the area of the
outlet
(which is under water due to our ever rising water line!). We enjoyed
our
swims and got cooled down; the area is under severe heat warnings and
watches. However, as Lydia was going around the boat in the dinghy
scrubbing
the sides, she was entertained by - she guesses - a 3.5 foot shark
which
wandered between her and the boat. I rather like sharks; they aren't
interested in stuff that doesn't look like food to them, and
certainly, one
that size would not attempt eating something our size. The good news
is that
when you catch one by accident in your fishing, they're marvelous
eating...

So, here we are, in Cape Lookout, wind howling, but tiny wavelets.
Perhaps
it will be enough wind that the extreme heat will be tolerable...

Stay tuned :{))

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make
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come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
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hands.
You seek problems because you need their gifts."
(Richard Bach, in The Reluctant Messiah)

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:57:58 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote:

Getting the anchor up now will involve (I'm awfully glad I have it!)
my
reaching down one of the original hawse holes (the original boat had
mostly
rope anchoring line and a bare windlass which allowed you to use two
anchors - a difference in the 45 and 46 models - but which required
manual
feeding of the line as it came in; that hole was available for me to
reach
under the windlass) and feeding the chain, link by link, so it didn't
jam in
the gypsy (the thing which fits the specific size of the chain,
allowing it
to control it) due to no stripper (that's the function of the broken
part -
directing the chain below rather than to keep going around in the
wheel).

Lewmar, ex-Simpson/Lawrence, right?

Don't say that I didn't warn you. I'd recommend carrying a complete
second unit as a spare since the various failure modes are too
numerous to predict. I installed one on my old boat. Big mistake.

There is apparently only one truly reliable windlass company: Ideal.

Not cheap, but darn near bullet proof from what I hear. That will be
my next choice when I have to replace our 26 year old Galley Maid
windlass one of these days.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

Skip Gundlach wrote in
ups.com:

With the engine running, of course, all electrical (well, all of them
after
we'd attended to the myriad of difficulties we'd faced in that
system!)
sources were available for use without concern for conservation, so we
continued to have all of our charging-sensitive items connected to the
power
grid, and all is well. We even got to grind our coffee with the
electrical
Starbucks grinder (we're not - a takeoff on Trekkies - Buckies, but
they
sell a very good grinder), instead of my usual 75 strokes on the West
Marine
manual grinder.


This telling little paragraph is why we still have an electrical problem
on the Pig. As soon as we start the engine, we crank it all up BEFORE
the heavy battery charge current and 13V turns into light charge current
and the alternator's voltage regulator starts throttling back rotor
current to limit the voltage to 14.2V.....

Is it any wonder that you're eating V-belts keeping the poor alternator
at its limit BEFORE the battery charging is complete?!

I love you two to death, but we have GOT to stop using our recharging
current to run all that crap! NO UNNECESSARY LOADS UNTIL THE BATTERY
VOLTAGE RISES TO REGULATOR VOLTAGE! RECHARGE THE BATTERIES FIRST!!





These *******s keep calling me so I'm feeding them to the spambots.
--
Sunrise Communications
1374 E. Republic Rd.
Springfield, MO 65804
866-483-1228
417-886-7091
http://www.sunrisecommunicationsinc.com/
877-842-3210
866-842-3278
United Healthcare
http://www.unitedhealthcareonline.com/

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Larry wrote, On 8/10/2007 5:36 PM:

This telling little paragraph is why we still have an electrical problem
on the Pig. As soon as we start the engine, we crank it all up BEFORE
the heavy battery charge current and 13V turns into light charge current
and the alternator's voltage regulator starts throttling back rotor
current to limit the voltage to 14.2V.....

Is it any wonder that you're eating V-belts keeping the poor alternator
at its limit BEFORE the battery charging is complete?!

I love you two to death, but we have GOT to stop using our recharging
current to run all that crap! NO UNNECESSARY LOADS UNTIL THE BATTERY
VOLTAGE RISES TO REGULATOR VOLTAGE! RECHARGE THE BATTERIES FIRST!!

I believe this is total nonsense. I have one major load, a
fridge/freezer that draws about 30 Amps and runs about an hour to
three hours a day (depending on air and water temps, etc.). I make a
point of running the engine or generator at the same time as the
fridge, thus saving about 15 to 20% of the power - the efficiency loss
of running the juice through the batteries. In addition to the simple
Charge Efficiency Factor, there is also the issue of running the
fridge at 13+ Volts, as opposed to 12 (or even less) Volts. There is
no indication that the alternator runs harder doing this, in fact its
running about 20% less.

Oddly, you're always claiming that charging a 450 Ah bank at 80 or 90
Amps is doing great damage. What I'm doing is reduces that to 50 Amps
charging, with 30 Amps to the fridge. Are you claiming that the
fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:57:58 -0000, Skip Gundlach
wrote:

on each anchorage or dockage. Of course, like nearly any other
sailboat, we
have exhaust grime on our stern and immediately in the area of the
outlet
(which is under water due to our ever rising water line!). We enjoyed

One thing I always do when I start the engine is to make sure water is
spitting out the exhaust. If your exhaust outlet is under water, you
can't do that. Also, like any thruhull that's under water, you should
have a shutoff valve for it. But I don't think you can (or should)
put one on an exhaust outlet. So that leaves maybe moving it higher
up. Something you might have thought about when the boat was being
repaired but you can still do.

Steve

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Larry wrote, On 8/10/2007 5:36 PM:

This telling little paragraph is why we still have an electrical
problem on the Pig. As soon as we start the engine, we crank it all
up BEFORE the heavy battery charge current and 13V turns into light
charge current and the alternator's voltage regulator starts
throttling back rotor current to limit the voltage to 14.2V.....

Is it any wonder that you're eating V-belts keeping the poor
alternator at its limit BEFORE the battery charging is complete?!

I love you two to death, but we have GOT to stop using our recharging
current to run all that crap! NO UNNECESSARY LOADS UNTIL THE BATTERY
VOLTAGE RISES TO REGULATOR VOLTAGE! RECHARGE THE BATTERIES FIRST!!

I believe this is total nonsense. I have one major load, a
fridge/freezer that draws about 30 Amps and runs about an hour to
three hours a day (depending on air and water temps, etc.). I make a
point of running the engine or generator at the same time as the
fridge, thus saving about 15 to 20% of the power - the efficiency loss
of running the juice through the batteries. In addition to the simple
Charge Efficiency Factor, there is also the issue of running the
fridge at 13+ Volts, as opposed to 12 (or even less) Volts. There is
no indication that the alternator runs harder doing this, in fact its
running about 20% less.

Oddly, you're always claiming that charging a 450 Ah bank at 80 or 90
Amps is doing great damage. What I'm doing is reduces that to 50 Amps
charging, with 30 Amps to the fridge. Are you claiming that the
fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?


I must inform you if your fridge draws 30 amps at 13VDC then there's
something seriously wrong with it. Mine only draws 5 amps. Hell, you
could run an air conditioner on 30 amps.

Wilbur Hubbard

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/10/2007 6:46 PM:
....

I must inform you if your fridge draws 30 amps at 13VDC then there's
something seriously wrong with it. Mine only draws 5 amps. Hell, you
could run an air conditioner on 30 amps.

It would seem that we can add yet another topic to the long list of
nautical issues where you seem completely ignorant.

First of all, 30 Amps DC won't get you a lot of A/C, though I must
admit I haven't looked into to smaller units. (The smallest one West
has would be about 50 Amps DC for 5000 BTU.)

However, a 30 Amp draw is quite common for my type of fridge. Its a
1/2 HP motor driving a compressor that feeds several holding plates in
a 9 cu ft fridge and 5 cu ft deep freeze. The actual load varies from
20 to 35 Amps. Here in Maine I've been monitoring it carefully, and
it has taken about 40 Amp-hours per day for the last two weeks. The
fridge stays at 42-46 degrees, the freezer at 15-20, both measured at
the top shelf.

Your system probably has a Danfoss hermetic system and runs about half
of the time, depending on the load, so you actually use about 60
Amp-hours a day. And your fridge/freezer is probably half the size
of mine, and not as cold.

Frankly, I've been thinking that is I did my system today I might use
two modern Danfoss systems, so I could shut down the freezer when not
needed. However, the last time I charged it up I seem to have got it
right and the efficiency is quite high. I curious to see how it works
when we get back into warmer waters in a week.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

Jeff wrote in :

Are you claiming that the
fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?



Nope.







These *******s keep calling me so I'm feeding them to the spambots.
--
Sunrise Communications
1374 E. Republic Rd.
Springfield, MO 65804
866-483-1228
417-886-7091
http://www.sunrisecommunicationsinc.com/
877-842-3210
866-842-3278
United Healthcare
http://www.unitedhealthcareonline.com/

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Aug 10, 6:31 pm, Steve wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:57:58 -0000, Skip Gundlach

wrote:
on each anchorage or dockage. Of course, like nearly any other
sailboat, we
have exhaust grime on our stern and immediately in the area of the
outlet
(which is under water due to our ever rising water line!). We enjoyed

One thing I always do when I start the engine is to make sure water is
spitting out the exhaust. If your exhaust outlet is under water, you
can't do that. Also, like any thruhull that's under water, you should
have a shutoff valve for it. But I don't think you can (or should)
put one on an exhaust outlet. So that leaves maybe moving it higher
up. Something you might have thought about when the boat was being
repaired but you can still do.

Steve

Hi, Steve,

We look at our filter for water movement. If it's coming in, it's
going out. More reliable than trying to stick our heads out to see
whether there was a splash, in any event, and much quicker as it's
right next to where the key is...

We thought about relocating the exhaust, but got talked out of it for
a variety of reasons. On our next extended haul we'll revisit doing
it out the transom rather than low on the stern side as it is now...

Wilbur, I don't know his system, but another's I know of uses a direct
drive 1HP motor to chill cold plates. Very high amps, relatively short
time. My estimated (see my upcoming electrical budget and scenaios)
use is over an entire day, but is more like 35-40AH.and uses, when
running full blast, as approximately yours does, 4.7A..

L8R

Skip

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/10/2007 6:46 PM:
...

I must inform you if your fridge draws 30 amps at 13VDC then there's
something seriously wrong with it. Mine only draws 5 amps. Hell, you
could run an air conditioner on 30 amps.

It would seem that we can add yet another topic to the long list of
nautical issues where you seem completely ignorant.

And it would seem you're drawing conclusions based on scanty information
yet again.


First of all, 30 Amps DC won't get you a lot of A/C, though I must
admit I haven't looked into to smaller units. (The smallest one West
has would be about 50 Amps DC for 5000 BTU.)

However, a 30 Amp draw is quite common for my type of fridge. Its a
1/2 HP motor driving a compressor that feeds several holding plates in
a 9 cu ft fridge and 5 cu ft deep freeze. The actual load varies from
20 to 35 Amps. Here in Maine I've been monitoring it carefully, and
it has taken about 40 Amp-hours per day for the last two weeks. The
fridge stays at 42-46 degrees, the freezer at 15-20, both measured at
the top shelf.

What you're doing is pretty wasteful. Sounds like you have a separate
freezer and refigerator. That's dumb. All you need is a freezer that
connects to your fridge box with a well-insulated duct. Keep your
freezer full of meats and other dense stuff and run it all the time.
Allow some of the excess cold air to migrate into your fridge box by
controlling the size of the duct. The duct should run from the top of
your freezer box to the bottom of your fridge box. If you do this, you
could run the entire system on one modern, efficient Danfoss compressor.
Holding plates are a stupid system because they are bulky and take up
too much room inside the ice box. Better to have a flat or box-shaped
evaporator and use meats and other dense frozen foods as the holding
plate. What I do is completely fill the freezer part with canned beer.
The Ice beer works best because of the high alcohol content it doesn't
freeze and bust open. But, the thermostat cant' be set to the cold
position. About 1/4 the way to all the way cold works best. My freezer
contains 15 twelve ounce beers. I relpace them one at a time as I drink
them. I maybe drink six on a hot day. I cycle new beers from the fridge
section to the freezer section and add new ones to the fridge section as
I drink them. An admirable holding plate.

My box is very-well insulated and because of it my compressor usually
runs 20 minutes on 40 off in the summer and about 15 minutes on and
close to an hour off in the cooler months of winter. Let's call that
one-third of 24 hours for 8 hours total or 40 amp hours. The box
measures about 1.5 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet. For about 4.5 feet cubed.
It and everything else is run by two Evergreen 100 watt photovoltaic
arrays connected to a Sunsie charge controller. The fridge runs more in
the summer months but the days are longer too so the batteries stay
well-charged the year around.


Your system probably has a Danfoss hermetic system and runs about half
of the time, depending on the load, so you actually use about 60
Amp-hours a day. And your fridge/freezer is probably half the size
of mine, and not as cold.

Frankly, I've been thinking that is I did my system today I might use
two modern Danfoss systems, so I could shut down the freezer when not
needed. However, the last time I charged it up I seem to have got it
right and the efficiency is quite high. I curious to see how it works
when we get back into warmer waters in a week.

Like I said above I think you could get away with using one. But your
ice box/fridge would have to be well insulated and close to each other
for it to work well. Most ice boxes are poorly insulated. I know a
fellow who built a 60 catamaran named Shadowfax. Cold molded cedar strip
planking method diagonal layers. Of course he built his own ice box
which was rather largish. He poured one foot of foam all the way around
even on top. He could put fifty pounds of ice blocks in the damned thing
and it would last two weeks. I was amazed. If you have the room, one
foot of insulation all around is the way to go.

Wilbur Hubbard

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
We look at our filter for water movement. If it's coming in, it's
going out. More reliable than trying to stick our heads out to see
whether there was a splash, in any event, and much quicker as it's
right next to where the key is...

We thought about relocating the exhaust, but got talked out of it for
a variety of reasons. On our next extended haul we'll revisit doing
it out the transom rather than low on the stern side as it is now...

Wilbur, I don't know his system, but another's I know of uses a direct
drive 1HP motor to chill cold plates. Very high amps, relatively short
time. My estimated (see my upcoming electrical budget and scenaios)
use is over an entire day, but is more like 35-40AH.and uses, when
running full blast, as approximately yours does, 4.7A..

L8R

Skip


Skip, it could also be coming in and going into your bilge. Also, having the
exhaust under water makes it more likely for water to back up into your
exhaust system in following seas. Free and clear of the water is for sure
the better way to go.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"KLC Lewis" wrote:

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
oups.com...
We look at our filter for water movement. If it's coming in, it's
going out. More reliable than trying to stick our heads out to see
whether there was a splash, in any event, and much quicker as it's
right next to where the key is...

Bob always walks back to see if exhaust is coming out, even if
everything sounds all right from the cockpit. I don't think much of
your method.

We thought about relocating the exhaust, but got talked out of it for
a variety of reasons. On our next extended haul we'll revisit doing
it out the transom rather than low on the stern side as it is now...

Wilbur, I don't know his system, but another's I know of uses a direct
drive 1HP motor to chill cold plates. Very high amps, relatively short
time. My estimated (see my upcoming electrical budget and scenaios)
use is over an entire day, but is more like 35-40AH.and uses, when
running full blast, as approximately yours does, 4.7A..

Skip, it could also be coming in and going into your bilge. Also, having the
exhaust under water makes it more likely for water to back up into your
exhaust system in following seas. Free and clear of the water is for sure
the better way to go.

I agree - we have a high loop which goes up into the cockpit to keep
waves from coming into the engine through the exhaust, and an
anti-siphon break on the cooling system.

I don't know what our refrigeration system uses when it is hooked up
to dock power. When we are not hooked up, we run the engine driven
system for 45 minutes twice a day. The frig is not attached to the
batteries. We have 19 cu ft of frig - 1/3rd freezer. It will not
freeze ice cubes or keep ice cream, but it will keep meat frozen, and
is perfectly adequate for our needs. Actually it is rather too big
for us, but that's what came with the boat.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:29:15 -0400, Jeff wrote:

the
fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?

Of course not. It is important however to get the batteries back up
to at least the 80 or 90% level in a reasonable length of time. If
the alternator belts are slipping/burning at less than the 100 amp
level, something is wrong, probably belt tension or belt type. Over
100 amps dual belts are generally necessary.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:46:36 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

I must inform you if your fridge draws 30 amps at 13VDC then there's
something seriously wrong with it. Mine only draws 5 amps. Hell, you
could run an air conditioner on 30 amps.

Probably cooling holding plates with a high powered condensing unit.
That's what I do, works fine, 3/4 hp compressor, 4 hours per day, 9
amps AC, 90 amps DC.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Wayne.B wrote, On 8/11/2007 12:12 AM:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:46:36 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

I must inform you if your fridge draws 30 amps at 13VDC then there's
something seriously wrong with it. Mine only draws 5 amps. Hell, you
could run an air conditioner on 30 amps.

Probably cooling holding plates with a high powered condensing unit.
That's what I do, works fine, 3/4 hp compressor, 4 hours per day, 9
amps AC, 90 amps DC.

That seems odd - my 1/2 motor, a Leeson, is rated at 1/2 Hp, with a 39
Amp draw. It normally uses no more than 30 Amps. Scaling up, I would
expect yours to be 60 Amps or less.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Wayne.B wrote, On 8/11/2007 12:08 AM:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:29:15 -0400, Jeff wrote:

the
fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?

Of course not. It is important however to get the batteries back up
to at least the 80 or 90% level in a reasonable length of time.

But you can run a lot of stuff tapping power off a 100 Amp alternator
and still leave it with a lot of charging power. In my case, the 30
Amp fridge, the TV, computer, and all the instruments don't come up to
50 Amps. My point with the fridge is that it going to use the power
at some time during the day, its more efficient to do it directly off
the charge source.

If
the alternator belts are slipping/burning at less than the 100 amp
level, something is wrong, probably belt tension or belt type. Over
100 amps dual belts are generally necessary.

Alignment is a common cause - being off 1/8 inch will kill a belt in
no time. Also, a faulty regulator that's "spiking" the field voltage
can do it.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/10/2007 9:15 PM:
....
However, a 30 Amp draw is quite common for my type of fridge. Its a
1/2 HP motor driving a compressor that feeds several holding plates in
a 9 cu ft fridge and 5 cu ft deep freeze. The actual load varies from
20 to 35 Amps. Here in Maine I've been monitoring it carefully, and
it has taken about 40 Amp-hours per day for the last two weeks. The
fridge stays at 42-46 degrees, the freezer at 15-20, both measured at
the top shelf.

What you're doing is pretty wasteful.

It was installed before the current high efficiency Danfoss unit were
available. However, it still seems more efficient than yours.

Sounds like you have a separate
freezer and refigerator. That's dumb. All you need is a freezer that
connects to your fridge box with a well-insulated duct. Keep your
freezer full of meats and other dense stuff and run it all the time.
Allow some of the excess cold air to migrate into your fridge box by
controlling the size of the duct. The duct should run from the top of
your freezer box to the bottom of your fridge box. If you do this, you
could run the entire system on one modern, efficient Danfoss compressor.

Spill-over systems have some virtue. However, that requires a
particular geometry that can't always be achieved. Also, its rather
doubtful that one Danfoss could chill a system as large as mine. Even
if it could, I would still split it into two. There's a huge
advantage to having redundancy and being able to scale down so a boat
could be left unattended for moderate periods.

Holding plates are a stupid system because they are bulky and take up
too much room inside the ice box.

They take no space at all; their volume is not included!

Better to have a flat or box-shaped
evaporator and use meats and other dense frozen foods as the holding
plate. What I do is completely fill the freezer part with canned beer.
The Ice beer works best because of the high alcohol content it doesn't
freeze and bust open. But, the thermostat cant' be set to the cold
position. About 1/4 the way to all the way cold works best. My freezer
contains 15 twelve ounce beers.

That's a pretty small freezer.

I relpace them one at a time as I drink them. I maybe drink six on a
hot day. I cycle new beers from the fridge
section to the freezer section and add new ones to the fridge section as
I drink them. An admirable holding plate.

In other words, you open the freezer at least six times a day? And
your antifreeze consumption certainly explains the quality of your posts!


My box is very-well insulated and because of it my compressor usually
runs 20 minutes on 40 off in the summer and about 15 minutes on and
close to an hour off in the cooler months of winter. Let's call that
one-third of 24 hours for 8 hours total or 40 amp hours. The box
measures about 1.5 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet. For about 4.5 feet cubed.

That's about a third the size of mine combined boxes, which also is
using 40 Amp-hours a day. And the warmest spot in my freezer is 20
degrees. Even in the tropics, serving three people, we rarely went
over 90 Ah a day. And that was before I learned how to maintain it
myself.

It and everything else is run by two Evergreen 100 watt photovoltaic
arrays connected to a Sunsie charge controller. The fridge runs more in
the summer months but the days are longer too so the batteries stay
well-charged the year around.

Adding more solar is high on my priority list.

... If you have the room, one
foot of insulation all around is the way to go.

My freezer has 7 inches all around, including the top. This biggest
issue now is that the seals have degraded, so they now let in too much
humidity. The fridge insulation is more important as you move south
and have higher temperature differentials, and hot nights. My fridge
alone can get by on as little as 15 Ah a day when a cold front comes
through!

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 06:57:27 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Probably cooling holding plates with a high powered condensing unit.
That's what I do, works fine, 3/4 hp compressor, 4 hours per day, 9
amps AC, 90 amps DC.

That seems odd - my 1/2 motor, a Leeson, is rated at 1/2 Hp, with a 39
Amp draw. It normally uses no more than 30 Amps. Scaling up, I would
expect yours to be 60 Amps or less.

I'm going through an inverter in DC mode, probably losing something
there. The compressor itself is AC only.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Jeff" wrote in message ...
Oddly, you're always claiming that charging a 450 Ah bank at 80 or 90 Amps
is doing great damage. What I'm doing is reduces that to 50 Amps
charging, with 30 Amps to the fridge. Are you claiming that the fridge,
radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is running and the
batteries are not fully charged?

Jeff, it sounds like you are mixing Amps and Amp-hours. I'm sure you know
the difference, but it does make things confusing. For example, my refrig
draws about 5A when running, which it does perhaps 6 hours a day in the
tropics. This gives a 24-hour consumption of 30 Ah (at 12V).

-Paul
-S/V VALIS

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:47:02 -0700, "Paul" wrote:

Jeff, it sounds like you are mixing Amps and Amp-hours. I'm sure you know
the difference, but it does make things confusing. For example, my refrig
draws about 5A when running, which it does perhaps 6 hours a day in the
tropics. This gives a 24-hour consumption of 30 Ah (at 12V).

That sounds incredibly efficient. What size box do you have and what
kind of system? Holding plates? Compressor type?

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Paul wrote, On 8/11/2007 12:47 PM:
"Jeff" wrote in message ...
Oddly, you're always claiming that charging a 450 Ah bank at 80 or 90 Amps
is doing great damage. What I'm doing is reduces that to 50 Amps
charging, with 30 Amps to the fridge. Are you claiming that the fridge,
radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is running and the
batteries are not fully charged?

Jeff, it sounds like you are mixing Amps and Amp-hours. I'm sure you know
the difference, but it does make things confusing. For example, my refrig
draws about 5A when running, which it does perhaps 6 hours a day in the
tropics. This gives a 24-hour consumption of 30 Ah (at 12V).


Nope - I meant what I said. My system has "open components" where the
compressor is belt driven by a 1/2 HP motor, rating at 39 Amps DC.
For the "noon to noon" day just finished, I had two runs (evening and
morning) of about half an hour for the fridge and freezer together
drawing 30 Amps, so they were 15 Amp-hours each. These pull down
three holding plates, one in the fridge and two in the freezer. This
morning I forced the freezer to run by itself (there's a solenoid on
the coolant line to the fridge) for and extra 30 minutes at 20 Amps.
The total for the day was 41 Amp-hours.

The reason for forcing the freezer is twofold - first, the thermostat
sometimes sticks "on" so if I'm one board monitoring I just turn it
off and add some time as needed. The other reason was to force it to
run while I was running my small genset.

In warmer climates the runs would be longer (because the cooling water
is warmer) and there might be a third run because of increased heat
loss. The worst case is sitting unattended at the dock because the
boat heats up so much.

Your system seems very efficient. I'm guessing its a BD50 based
system with a small, well insulated box, and good air flow over the
condenser.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Paul wrote, On 8/11/2007 12:47 PM:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Oddly, you're always claiming that charging a 450 Ah bank at 80 or
90 Amps is doing great damage. What I'm doing is reduces that to 50
Amps charging, with 30 Amps to the fridge. Are you claiming that
the fridge, radar, and autopilot must be turned off if the engine is
running and the batteries are not fully charged?

Jeff, it sounds like you are mixing Amps and Amp-hours. I'm sure you
know the difference, but it does make things confusing. For example,
my refrig draws about 5A when running, which it does perhaps 6 hours
a day in the tropics. This gives a 24-hour consumption of 30 Ah (at
12V).


Nope - I meant what I said. My system has "open components" where the
compressor is belt driven by a 1/2 HP motor, rating at 39 Amps DC. For
the "noon to noon" day just finished, I had two runs (evening and
morning) of about half an hour for the fridge and freezer together
drawing 30 Amps, so they were 15 Amp-hours each. These pull down
three holding plates, one in the fridge and two in the freezer. This
morning I forced the freezer to run by itself (there's a solenoid on
the coolant line to the fridge) for and extra 30 minutes at 20 Amps.
The total for the day was 41 Amp-hours.

The reason for forcing the freezer is twofold - first, the thermostat
sometimes sticks "on" so if I'm one board monitoring I just turn it
off and add some time as needed. The other reason was to force it to
run while I was running my small genset.

In warmer climates the runs would be longer (because the cooling water
is warmer) and there might be a third run because of increased heat
loss. The worst case is sitting unattended at the dock because the
boat heats up so much.

Your system seems very efficient. I'm guessing its a BD50 based
system with a small, well insulated box, and good air flow over the
condenser.


The cooling water is warmer? Therein lies the key to you efficiency. I
bet you don't count the amps the circulation pump uses? Some of those
things use up to five amps.

Wilbur Hubbard

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 8/11/2007 2:24 PM:

The cooling water is warmer? Therein lies the key to you efficiency. I
bet you don't count the amps the circulation pump uses? Some of those
things use up to five amps.


Nice try, but my pump is the common March 809, which draws 1.5 Amps.
(It might even be the half power version, but I can't tell without
un-mounting it.)

Even so, my Amp measurements include the pump as I have an Amp-hour
meter (half of my Link 2000) on the entire refrigeration system.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:15:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


What I do is completely fill the freezer part with canned beer.
The Ice beer works best because of the high alcohol content it doesn't
freeze and bust open. But, the thermostat cant' be set to the cold
position. About 1/4 the way to all the way cold works best. My freezer
contains 15 twelve ounce beers. I relpace them one at a time as I drink
them. I maybe drink six on a hot day. I cycle new beers from the fridge
section to the freezer section and add new ones to the fridge section as
I drink them. An admirable holding plate.

My box is very-well insulated and because of it my compressor usually
runs 20 minutes on 40 off in the summer and about 15 minutes on and
close to an hour off in the cooler months of winter. Let's call that
one-third of 24 hours for 8 hours total or 40 amp hours. The box
measures about 1.5 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet. For about 4.5 feet cubed.
It and everything else is run by two Evergreen 100 watt photovoltaic
arrays connected to a Sunsie charge controller. The fridge runs more in
the summer months but the days are longer too so the batteries stay
well-charged the year around.

You're getting down to brass tacks now. My main reason for a fridge
would be to chill beer. I might be out in the Gulf of Mexico and Keys
for a couple weeks at a time. My wife drinks mainly pop and juices,
lukewarm - she doesn't like chilled drinks. I don't care what temp my
water is, but I like my beer cold. I normally don't drink beer in
morning or high sun, but might hanker for a cold Coca-Cola in those
hours, which also comes in 12 ounce cans
I'm thinking for guys like me there is a BCAH calculation for
beer/coke amp hours. I just don't know what it is.
You weren't clear about cooling anything except beer in your reefer.
Let's say I want to spec out reefer cooling 6-8 12 ounce cans per day.
How would you recommend going about calculating BCAH, and sizing the
reefer to accomplish that?
Thanks.

--Vic

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

* Vic Smith wrote, On 8/11/2007 5:25 PM:
....
I'm thinking for guys like me there is a BCAH calculation for
beer/coke amp hours. I just don't know what it is.
You weren't clear about cooling anything except beer in your reefer.
Let's say I want to spec out reefer cooling 6-8 12 ounce cans per day.
How would you recommend going about calculating BCAH, and sizing the
reefer to accomplish that?

There are books written to address this topic. It runs something like
this:

A BTU is raising a pound of water one degree. If you have a 6-pack,
that's 4.5 pounds of water. Removing heat to bring it from 70 degrees
to 38 means a removal of 144 BTU. Figure 5 BTU of heat removal per
watt-hour of energy in, so we end up with only a cost of 2.5 Amp-hours
to chill the beer.

BUT, what if the beer started at 100 degrees, what if there's two
6-paks, what about the heat losses of the box? These can all be
calculated, but a one cu ft box with 3 inches of insulation will loose
about 1000 BTU per day, and that would cost 16 Amp-hours. Thus, the
total load for a small fridge can be 20 Amp-hours, easily handled by
a small Danfoss like the BD35.

One point here is the the fridge could be a lot larger - you could go
to 4 cu ft and still have a loss of only 2000 BTU. Or, if you put in
6" of foam you can keep the loss down to 1200 BTU on a 3 foot box.
(These numbers from a table by Grunert.) Also, the "cool down" cost
can be estimated just by considering the weight of the food/drink
consumed each day. Since this is largely liquid (beer/coke/water)
keeping a little bit of butter or cheese cold costs very little. Once
you're in for the basic investment, there's little additional cost to
keeping some eggs, and maybe some bacon, etc, since they get added
cold at the start.

Contrary to the "common wisdom" opening the door is not a major cost,
the heat content of the air that comes out is rather low. You can
even make the case that digging around in a top-loader creates more of
a loss than quickly opening the door of a front loader.

What it comes down to is the cost of chilling your favorite beverage,
and the heat loss of the box itself.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:56:22 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 8/11/2007 5:25 PM:
...
I'm thinking for guys like me there is a BCAH calculation for
beer/coke amp hours. I just don't know what it is.
You weren't clear about cooling anything except beer in your reefer.
Let's say I want to spec out reefer cooling 6-8 12 ounce cans per day.
How would you recommend going about calculating BCAH, and sizing the
reefer to accomplish that?

There are books written to address this topic. It runs something like
this:

A BTU is raising a pound of water one degree. If you have a 6-pack,
that's 4.5 pounds of water. Removing heat to bring it from 70 degrees
to 38 means a removal of 144 BTU. Figure 5 BTU of heat removal per
watt-hour of energy in, so we end up with only a cost of 2.5 Amp-hours
to chill the beer.

BUT, what if the beer started at 100 degrees, what if there's two
6-paks, what about the heat losses of the box? These can all be
calculated, but a one cu ft box with 3 inches of insulation will loose
about 1000 BTU per day, and that would cost 16 Amp-hours. Thus, the
total load for a small fridge can be 20 Amp-hours, easily handled by
a small Danfoss like the BD35.

One point here is the the fridge could be a lot larger - you could go
to 4 cu ft and still have a loss of only 2000 BTU. Or, if you put in
6" of foam you can keep the loss down to 1200 BTU on a 3 foot box.
(These numbers from a table by Grunert.) Also, the "cool down" cost
can be estimated just by considering the weight of the food/drink
consumed each day. Since this is largely liquid (beer/coke/water)
keeping a little bit of butter or cheese cold costs very little. Once
you're in for the basic investment, there's little additional cost to
keeping some eggs, and maybe some bacon, etc, since they get added
cold at the start.

Contrary to the "common wisdom" opening the door is not a major cost,
the heat content of the air that comes out is rather low. You can
even make the case that digging around in a top-loader creates more of
a loss than quickly opening the door of a front loader.

What it comes down to is the cost of chilling your favorite beverage,
and the heat loss of the box itself.

Thanks, Jeff. You've given me a great starting point.
Forgot my BTU's, probably because I always used them in steam calcs.

--Vic

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:15:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


What I do is completely fill the freezer part with canned beer.
The Ice beer works best because of the high alcohol content it doesn't
freeze and bust open. But, the thermostat cant' be set to the cold
position. About 1/4 the way to all the way cold works best. My freezer
contains 15 twelve ounce beers. I relpace them one at a time as I
drink
them. I maybe drink six on a hot day. I cycle new beers from the
fridge
section to the freezer section and add new ones to the fridge section
as
I drink them. An admirable holding plate.

My box is very-well insulated and because of it my compressor usually
runs 20 minutes on 40 off in the summer and about 15 minutes on and
close to an hour off in the cooler months of winter. Let's call that
one-third of 24 hours for 8 hours total or 40 amp hours. The box
measures about 1.5 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet. For about 4.5 feet
cubed.
It and everything else is run by two Evergreen 100 watt photovoltaic
arrays connected to a Sunsie charge controller. The fridge runs more
in
the summer months but the days are longer too so the batteries stay
well-charged the year around.

You're getting down to brass tacks now. My main reason for a fridge
would be to chill beer. I might be out in the Gulf of Mexico and Keys
for a couple weeks at a time. My wife drinks mainly pop and juices,
lukewarm - she doesn't like chilled drinks. I don't care what temp my
water is, but I like my beer cold. I normally don't drink beer in
morning or high sun, but might hanker for a cold Coca-Cola in those
hours, which also comes in 12 ounce cans
I'm thinking for guys like me there is a BCAH calculation for
beer/coke amp hours. I just don't know what it is.
You weren't clear about cooling anything except beer in your reefer.
Let's say I want to spec out reefer cooling 6-8 12 ounce cans per day.
How would you recommend going about calculating BCAH, and sizing the
reefer to accomplish that?
Thanks.

--Vic

Beer and pop is VERY expensive in the Bahamas and so is ice. The last
time I cruised the Abacos I brought along 20 twelve packs of beer and 20
twelve packs of cheap pop of different flavors. All in 12 ounce cans. I
stored them on the sole of the head stacked to the level of the v-berth
with a layer on the sole of the main salon. I had all I wanted to drink
cold beverages lasting three months. My Adler Barbour air cooled
compressor kept the beers almost frozen cold. I like them to be sort of
slushy when the top is popped.

This is what I've got for a compressor
http://www.waecousa.com/page.aspx?p=thecold

And this is the evaporator: http://www.waecousa.com/page.aspx?p=theevap
The top one, the VD 150.

With a 12pack in the freezer and two twelve packs lining the bottom of
the icebox that makes one freezing cold 12pack and two cold 12packs. As
I drink several beers or pops from the freezer I add more from the
icebox and add warm ones from the sole into the bottom of the ice box.
There's room for cheese, fruit, veggies, eggs, meats and other things
that are best kept cold on top of the drinks in the bottom of the box.
Butter I don't care if it melts a little. I use tinned butter from New
Zealand when I'm in the Bahamas. It's cheaper than butter in the states.

Two 100 watt solar panels atop the bimini provide all the juice I need
for the fridge and everything else. One thing though. A couple or three
cloudy days in a row means I shut the fridge off at night. The contents
keep cold all night long and when the sun comes out I turn it back on.
It runs a little longer on the first couple of cycles but the solar
panels alone are more than enough to run it so the excess goes into the
batteries. I carry an old 600 watt portable Yamaha gasoline generator
for emergencies but I haven't needed it for years and years.

To avoid the initial btu use trying to cool down three warm 12pack, buy
cold 12packs from the supermarket fridge. Surprising cold or warm the
price is the same. That way you load your box up with cold drinks from
the very start and save that initial surge of energy being used. Also
buy a frozen chicken whole and put it into the ice box. It will stay
frozen for two days and help keep your other stuff even colder. When it
thaws out then you can cook it and eat it. You can do this with steaks
too. Surprising frozen steaks and chicken are not that overpriced in the
Bahamas.

You're right on about the cold beers. Nothing hits the spot better. The
only trouble is you've got to be diligent and ration them out or you'll
find yourself going through a 12pack a day which isn't good at all.

Wilbur Hubbard

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Aug 11, 6:11 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

You're right on about the cold beers. Nothing hits the spot better. The
only trouble is you've got to be diligent and ration them out or you'll
find yourself going through a 12pack a day which isn't good at all.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -


Wilbur I must protest and challenge your claim to manlyness. I
proclaim anyone who uses a refer a fu-fu girlie man. I simply find the
local brew and serve at room temp. Why, cause poor peole dont have
refers at home and still neeed to drink somthing. So buy what the
local poor people drink. My favorite was in Fiji. Ahhh, Fiji Bitter
served at 83 degrees F. Now that was a fine brew. So to all thoes
girlie boys out there who whine cause their beer is warm I say, fluff
n nutter! Git a grip and a good warm beer! Then ya dont have all thoes
problmes ole Skip is having trying to charge a 1000 Ah house bank.
Bob

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:11:12 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:15:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


What I do is completely fill the freezer part with canned beer.
The Ice beer works best because of the high alcohol content it doesn't
freeze and bust open. But, the thermostat cant' be set to the cold
position. About 1/4 the way to all the way cold works best. My freezer
contains 15 twelve ounce beers. I relpace them one at a time as I
drink
them. I maybe drink six on a hot day. I cycle new beers from the
fridge
section to the freezer section and add new ones to the fridge section
as
I drink them. An admirable holding plate.

My box is very-well insulated and because of it my compressor usually
runs 20 minutes on 40 off in the summer and about 15 minutes on and
close to an hour off in the cooler months of winter. Let's call that
one-third of 24 hours for 8 hours total or 40 amp hours. The box
measures about 1.5 feet by 2 feet by 1.5 feet. For about 4.5 feet
cubed.
It and everything else is run by two Evergreen 100 watt photovoltaic
arrays connected to a Sunsie charge controller. The fridge runs more
in
the summer months but the days are longer too so the batteries stay
well-charged the year around.

You're getting down to brass tacks now. My main reason for a fridge
would be to chill beer. I might be out in the Gulf of Mexico and Keys
for a couple weeks at a time. My wife drinks mainly pop and juices,
lukewarm - she doesn't like chilled drinks. I don't care what temp my
water is, but I like my beer cold. I normally don't drink beer in
morning or high sun, but might hanker for a cold Coca-Cola in those
hours, which also comes in 12 ounce cans
I'm thinking for guys like me there is a BCAH calculation for
beer/coke amp hours. I just don't know what it is.
You weren't clear about cooling anything except beer in your reefer.
Let's say I want to spec out reefer cooling 6-8 12 ounce cans per day.
How would you recommend going about calculating BCAH, and sizing the
reefer to accomplish that?
Thanks.

--Vic

Beer and pop is VERY expensive in the Bahamas and so is ice. The last
time I cruised the Abacos I brought along 20 twelve packs of beer and 20
twelve packs of cheap pop of different flavors. All in 12 ounce cans. I
stored them on the sole of the head stacked to the level of the v-berth
with a layer on the sole of the main salon. I had all I wanted to drink
cold beverages lasting three months. My Adler Barbour air cooled
compressor kept the beers almost frozen cold. I like them to be sort of
slushy when the top is popped.

This is what I've got for a compressor
http://www.waecousa.com/page.aspx?p=thecold

And this is the evaporator: http://www.waecousa.com/page.aspx?p=theevap
The top one, the VD 150.

With a 12pack in the freezer and two twelve packs lining the bottom of
the icebox that makes one freezing cold 12pack and two cold 12packs. As
I drink several beers or pops from the freezer I add more from the
icebox and add warm ones from the sole into the bottom of the ice box.
There's room for cheese, fruit, veggies, eggs, meats and other things
that are best kept cold on top of the drinks in the bottom of the box.
Butter I don't care if it melts a little. I use tinned butter from New
Zealand when I'm in the Bahamas. It's cheaper than butter in the states.

Two 100 watt solar panels atop the bimini provide all the juice I need
for the fridge and everything else. One thing though. A couple or three
cloudy days in a row means I shut the fridge off at night. The contents
keep cold all night long and when the sun comes out I turn it back on.
It runs a little longer on the first couple of cycles but the solar
panels alone are more than enough to run it so the excess goes into the
batteries. I carry an old 600 watt portable Yamaha gasoline generator
for emergencies but I haven't needed it for years and years.

To avoid the initial btu use trying to cool down three warm 12pack, buy
cold 12packs from the supermarket fridge. Surprising cold or warm the
price is the same. That way you load your box up with cold drinks from
the very start and save that initial surge of energy being used. Also
buy a frozen chicken whole and put it into the ice box. It will stay
frozen for two days and help keep your other stuff even colder. When it
thaws out then you can cook it and eat it. You can do this with steaks
too. Surprising frozen steaks and chicken are not that overpriced in the
Bahamas.

You're right on about the cold beers. Nothing hits the spot better. The
only trouble is you've got to be diligent and ration them out or you'll
find yourself going through a 12pack a day which isn't good at all.

Thanks for the tips, Wilbur. Didn't know I could have all the cold
beer I need with a couple solar panels. Real good to know and will
be part of my of my reefer decision.

--Vic

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 11, 6:11 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

You're right on about the cold beers. Nothing hits the spot better.
The
only trouble is you've got to be diligent and ration them out or
you'll
find yourself going through a 12pack a day which isn't good at all.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -


Wilbur I must protest and challenge your claim to manlyness. I
proclaim anyone who uses a refer a fu-fu girlie man. I simply find the
local brew and serve at room temp. Why, cause poor peole dont have
refers at home and still neeed to drink somthing. So buy what the
local poor people drink. My favorite was in Fiji. Ahhh, Fiji Bitter
served at 83 degrees F. Now that was a fine brew. So to all thoes
girlie boys out there who whine cause their beer is warm I say, fluff
n nutter! Git a grip and a good warm beer! Then ya dont have all thoes
problmes ole Skip is having trying to charge a 1000 Ah house bank.
Bob

If you're a real manly man, consider the fact that offering an ice cold
alcohol beverage to a lovely local gal stands you a better chance of
getting laid. Few if any women I've ever met will be able to stomach
enough warm beer or mixed alcohol drinks to get drunk enough to allow
their inner horny slut to take charge.

Wilbur Hubbard

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

On Aug 12, 11:40 am, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Aug 11, 6:11 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

You're right on about the cold beers. Nothing hits the spot better.
The
only trouble is you've got to be diligent and ration them out or
you'll
find yourself going through a 12pack a day which isn't good at all.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

Wilbur I must protest and challenge your claim to manlyness. I
proclaim anyone who uses a refer a fu-fu girlie man. I simply find the
local brew and serve at room temp. Why, cause poor peole dont have
refers at home and still neeed to drink somthing. So buy what the
local poor people drink. My favorite was in Fiji. Ahhh, Fiji Bitter
served at 83 degrees F. Now that was a fine brew. So to all thoes
girlie boys out there who whine cause their beer is warm I say, fluff
n nutter! Git a grip and a good warm beer! Then ya dont have all thoes
problmes ole Skip is having trying to charge a 1000 Ah house bank.
Bob

If you're a real manly man, consider the fact that offering an ice cold
alcohol beverage to a lovely local gal stands you a better chance of
getting laid. Few if any women I've ever met will be able to stomach
enough warm beer or mixed alcohol drinks to get drunk enough to allow
their inner horny slut to take charge.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -


Point well taken Wilbut. your getting layed argument certainly trumps
mainitaining ones masculinity. Cold beer it is then ! Men have been
know to comprmise their masculinity for such treats.

August 7 - Land, HO!
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:47:02 -0700, "Paul" wrote:

Jeff, it sounds like you are mixing Amps and Amp-hours. I'm sure you know
the difference, but it does make things confusing. For example, my refrig
draws about 5A when running, which it does perhaps 6 hours a day in the
tropics. This gives a 24-hour consumption of 30 Ah (at 12V).

That sounds incredibly efficient. What size box do you have and what
kind of system? Holding plates? Compressor type?

I have a Seafrost BD12 compressor/cold-plate (air) system, and the box is
perhaps 6 cu ft (I am trying to picture it, and this is merely an estimate).
It is reasonably well-insulated, but not spectacularly so. I usually put a
foam insulation sheet on top of the counter/lid to reduce the thermal loss.
I have measured the current drain, and it is indeed 5A. I have not
carefully measured the cooling duty-cycle, so I may be off a bit on the
daily AH. I don't think that it runs more than 1/3 of the time, though (8Hr
per day * 5A = 40AH) -- the compressor is in a locker in the aft cabin,
where I sleep, so I do know when it is running. It isn't a freezer, but it
can make ice cubes, and will keep a small amount of stuff frozen for a
while. The boat is a Pacific Seacraft 44.

Let's just say I put out these numbers as an example of AH calculations, not
necessarily an accurate measurement of my system's power consumption.

-Paul
-S/V VALIS
..