Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

I'm now working with the shipyard and engineers who are doing the final
design and engineering for this vessel:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm

The electrical subcontractors were at the last meeting and I asked them
about using AGM batteries in the boat. They said they wouldn't consider
using anything else. I said, "Safety?"

They said, "No, better performance. The safety is just icing on the cake."

These guys not only design the electrical systems for very sophisticated
vessels but things like remote telephone switching stations and computer
server sites. A lot of the systems they design run unattended and a
battery explosion could create damages up into the seven figure range.

I'm sure that, if you like tinkering with batteries the way Larry does, wet
cells make sense as a hobby in themselves. There also may be some
advantages for boat spending long periods in remote parts of the world. For
most of us though, this is the most knowledgable vote I've heard yet for
using AGM's.

--
Roger Long

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

On Jul 29, 3:55 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
I'm now working with the shipyard and engineers who are doing the final
design and engineering for this vessel:
Roger Long

Hi Roger:

I was wondering why you put the exhaust/funnels so far aft? Seems like
having them attached to the house would give better aft visiability
for the skipper and alow for easier loading deck loads at the dock or
at sea transfers with a crane.

Just wondering?

Bob

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I'm now working with the shipyard and engineers who are doing the
final design and engineering for this vessel:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/UMDconcept.htm

The electrical subcontractors were at the last meeting and I asked
them about using AGM batteries in the boat. They said they wouldn't
consider using anything else. I said, "Safety?"

They said, "No, better performance. The safety is just icing on the
cake."

These guys not only design the electrical systems for very
sophisticated vessels but things like remote telephone switching
stations and computer server sites. A lot of the systems they design
run unattended and a battery explosion could create damages up into
the seven figure range.

I'm sure that, if you like tinkering with batteries the way Larry
does, wet cells make sense as a hobby in themselves. There also may
be some advantages for boat spending long periods in remote parts of
the world. For most of us though, this is the most knowledgable vote
I've heard yet for using AGM's.

--
Roger Long


http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/D-137-3.pdf -------- This shows . . .

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is
ill-conceived and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths way
forward for the roughest ride possible? Duh! Move the berths aft as far
as you can get them in the accommodation. Put the heads up forward.

Wilbur Hubbard

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 29, 3:55 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
I'm now working with the shipyard and engineers who are doing the
final
design and engineering for this vessel:
Roger Long

Hi Roger:

I was wondering why you put the exhaust/funnels so far aft? Seems like
having them attached to the house would give better aft visiability
for the skipper and alow for easier loading deck loads at the dock or
at sea transfers with a crane.

Just wondering?

Bob


Everything about the boat screams "amateur, lubberly effort." It looks
like a toy designer drew the thing. Is it going to be built in Japan at
the Tonka factory?

Wilbur Hubbard

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

....
Everything about the boat screams "amateur, lubberly effort." It looks
like a toy designer drew the thing. Is it going to be built in Japan at
the Tonka factory?...

Really? With the limited plans on hand it looks like a shallow,
fairly fast day boat for science work in protected waters to me...
Boats are built to specific services. They shouldn't all look alike.
To me, the most curious bit of this design is the keel arrangement.

FWIW, I've been happy with my Lifeline (tm) AGMs, too.

-- Tom.

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
...
Everything about the boat screams "amateur, lubberly effort." It
looks
like a toy designer drew the thing. Is it going to be built in Japan
at
the Tonka factory?...

Really? With the limited plans on hand it looks like a shallow,
fairly fast day boat for science work in protected waters to me...
Boats are built to specific services. They shouldn't all look alike.
To me, the most curious bit of this design is the keel arrangement.

FWIW, I've been happy with my Lifeline (tm) AGMs, too.

-- Tom.


Since when does a "dayboat" need berths? You know as well as I do that
the boat can and will stay out for more than a day.

AGM batteries are good but they are overpriced by at least 4X. You
could put together a lithium ion bank for the same price that would last
longer, hold more charge and charge more quickly . . .

Wilbur Hubbard

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

... You know as well as I do that
the boat can and will stay out for more than a day.

It's a planning boat with jet drives. You think it's going to cross
oceans?

....
AGM batteries are good but they are overpriced by at least 4X. You
could put together a lithium ion bank for the same price that would last
longer, hold more charge and charge more quickly . . .

AGMs are about $2/AH at 12 volts. I don't think you can get lithium
ion for anything close to that. I've recently paid about an order of
magnitude more on an amp hour basis for computer batteries at deep
discount. Lithium ion batteries are tricky to charge and a fire
hazard if not very carefully controlled, but if the price were
competitive lots of folks would be using them...

-- Tom.

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

Sheesh. I forgot that I hadn't killfiled this nitwit on my home computer
yet.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is ill-conceived
and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths way forward for the
roughest ride possible?

Because the berths are infrequently used and generally in port or while on
station (moving slowly and just maintaing position). The heads on the other
hand, are used constantly.

--
Roger Long

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

"Bob" wrote

I was wondering why you put the exhaust/funnels so far aft?

Look at the separate gear handling areas, one for gear that needs to go over
the side and one for gear that goes over the stern and I think you'll start
to get the idea. These boats also need windage aft to help maintain
attitude on station and the windage of those two stacks aft will help a lot.

The most critical operator view is of the wire that goes over the side
A-frame attached to perhaps a quarter million dollars worth of insturments.
That's why no uptake and stack between pilothouse and side gear handling
area.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is
ill-conceived and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths
way forward for the roughest ride possible?

Because the berths are infrequently used and generally in port or
while on station (moving slowly and just maintaing position). The
heads on the other hand, are used constantly.


Used almost constantly? What's the matter with the crew? Chronic
diarrhea?

Being 'on station' is perhaps the worst of all worlds. You pitch AND
roll. You don't want to even try sleeping in the bow under those
conditions. Those poor seasick blokes stumbling from bow to aft heads
will just manage to puke all over everything in between. Nope, it's a
dumb layout. They took a freaking pleasure yacht layout and tried to
incorporate it into a workboat. Like I said, ill-conceived. The
designer's incompetent.

Wilbur Hubbard

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Being 'on station' is perhaps the worst of all worlds. You pitch AND roll.
You don't want to even try sleeping in the bow under those conditions.
Those poor seasick blokes stumbling from bow to aft heads will just manage
to puke all over everything in between. Nope, it's a dumb layout. They
took a freaking pleasure yacht layout and tried to incorporate it into a
workboat. Like I said, ill-conceived. The designer's incompetent.

Wilbur Hubbard


What is your home page address? I want to see that mustard yellow swamp
boat with the mauve interior again.

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:28:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is
ill-conceived and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths way
forward for the roughest ride possible? Duh! Move the berths aft as far
as you can get them in the accommodation. Put the heads up forward.

And look at all that wasted space for the engine room Wilbur. If the
designer had just used a couple of your 9.9 hp 4 stroke outboards that
burn 1 quart per hour by running them at idle speed, there would be
room for a couple of full sized pool tables and a Jacuzi or two. Whoa
ho! That would be a nice touch on a cruising boat.

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:30:14 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

The
designer's incompetent.

A condition you've no doubt had some experience with.

How did your latest cruise go Wilbur, and where to? This is a
newsgroup about cruising you know.

UNInformed interior design.
 

Being 'on station' is perhaps the worst of all worlds. You pitch AND
roll. You don't want to even try sleeping in the bow under those
conditions.

This is the fourth boat in a series, the first having more than a decade of
operation. No complaints about comfort yet, quite the opposite. Each
institution has talked to the operator of the previous boats to get ideas
and changing the berth layout has never come up.

It's the comfort on station and the qualities as a good platform for
handling heavy, delicate, and expensive stuff over the sides that keeps
oceanographic institutions coming back to me for designs. There are now
more oceanographic vessels in the under 150 foot size range of my design
operating in the Atlantic than by any other designer. I know a couple of
captains that have spent their entire careers on vessels that I designed.

These aren't your daddy's trawler yachts. The hull weight distribution is
carefully managed to detune the roll period to the critical sea states and
the hulls have a great deal of damping. The difference in comfort compared
to a boat with freeboard and deckhouses piled high to make an impression
inside at the boat shows is remarkable. I got a letter from someone at Woods
Hole who had deployed the same gear on the original 50 foot version and on
an 80 footer of four times the displacement and proportions typical of
trawler yachts. He found the smaller boat more comfortable and a better
working plantform. That had a lot to do with my designing the one for Woods
Hole.

Someday, someone will realize what a great yacht one of these boats would
make. In that case, the berths probably will go in the middle. The purpose
of these boat is to do science; not have people sleep. The most important
function goes in the most comfortable part of the boat.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

I just fixed couple of broken links and you can now view the homepages for
the three previous boats he

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Challenger_Class.HTM

All three home pages have arrangement plans for the boats and there are even
some videos if you look around.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:40:22 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:28:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is
ill-conceived and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths way
forward for the roughest ride possible? Duh! Move the berths aft as far
as you can get them in the accommodation. Put the heads up forward.

And look at all that wasted space for the engine room Wilbur. If the
designer had just used a couple of your 9.9 hp 4 stroke outboards that
burn 1 quart per hour by running them at idle speed, there would be
room for a couple of full sized pool tables and a Jacuzi or two. Whoa
ho! That would be a nice touch on a cruising boat.


Comments made to one of the most successful designers of survey
vessels on the east coast by an individual who has resided for 20
years on a "trailer-sailer:", with a 9.9 HP engine, anchored in a
swamp somewhere.
I wonder how many design contracts Hubby has received over the years?




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:30:14 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote

a really stupid interior design. The entire accommodation is
ill-conceived and obviously designed by a lubber. Why put the berths
way forward for the roughest ride possible?

Because the berths are infrequently used and generally in port or
while on station (moving slowly and just maintaing position). The
heads on the other hand, are used constantly.


Used almost constantly? What's the matter with the crew? Chronic
diarrhea?

Being 'on station' is perhaps the worst of all worlds. You pitch AND
roll. You don't want to even try sleeping in the bow under those
conditions. Those poor seasick blokes stumbling from bow to aft heads
will just manage to puke all over everything in between. Nope, it's a
dumb layout. They took a freaking pleasure yacht layout and tried to
incorporate it into a workboat. Like I said, ill-conceived. The
designer's incompetent.

Wilbur Hubbard


Goodness! I typed "Roger Long" into Google and got a page listing
boats that he has designed ,and that have been built, up to 180 ft.
plus substantial other work dating back 20 years, or more.

Then I typed "Wilbur Hubbard" into Google.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:49:44 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...

Being 'on station' is perhaps the worst of all worlds. You pitch AND roll.
You don't want to even try sleeping in the bow under those conditions.
Those poor seasick blokes stumbling from bow to aft heads will just manage
to puke all over everything in between. Nope, it's a dumb layout. They
took a freaking pleasure yacht layout and tried to incorporate it into a
workboat. Like I said, ill-conceived. The designer's incompetent.

Wilbur Hubbard


What is your home page address? I want to see that mustard yellow swamp
boat with the mauve interior again.



Don't forget the shiny, new 9.9 HP 4-stroke, non polluting outboard
hanging on the back...
Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

UNInformed interior design.
 

....
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Challenger_Class.HTM

All three home pages have arrangement plans for the boats and there are even
some videos if you look around.
....

Thanks for all that. Not every designer in the world is willing to
share lines drawings. When I bought the design for my current boat I
had to sign a NDA with the designer and return the plans on
completion! Anyway, since you've been generous with sharing your work
I'm going to be rude enough to ask some questions. Feel free to
ignore them! I'm curious about why you've chosen jets for the new
design. Is the cruise speed higher? I'm also fascinated by the bilge
keels. Are they just to help the handling?

-- Tom.

Informed AGM battery recommendation
 

On Jul 29, 2:46 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
"Bob" wrote



I was wondering why you put the exhaust/funnels so far aft?

Look at the separate gear handling areas, one for gear that needs to go over
the side and one for gear that goes over the stern and I think you'll start
to get the idea. These boats also need windage aft to help maintain
attitude on station and the windage of those two stacks aft will help a lot.

The most critical operator view is of the wire that goes over the side
A-frame attached to perhaps a quarter million dollars worth of insturments.
That's why no uptake and stack between pilothouse and side gear handling
area.

--
Roger Long


Hi Roger, thanks for the thoughtful answer. Yeks, sounds like there is
a very sepecific purpose in that boat's future. I know little about R/
V design other than they are asked to do some really wierd things in
the name of quality data. Specialized use can make for some out of the
ordinary designs. Cool boat.

Bob

UNInformed interior design.
 

It is a jet boat because it will be operating primarily in the shallow
waters of Cheaspeak Bay and a lot of areas of interest are the thin parts.
The draft of the jet boat isn't significantly different than a prop boat
with tunnels but there is a big difference running with just a foot or two
of water under you when the first thing to strike will be spinning props
that will send you the the shipyard for haulout if they touch. The jets
will ingest a lot of oyster shells and other debris. The jet boat could
probably plow right through an oyster bar and keep right on operating
although the transducers and bottom paint would suffer.

The jets are less fuel effecient. Another way of putting this is that the
boat will burn more fuel at the same speed. We expect the cost of this fuel
to be offset by not hauling out to repair props so often and being able to
extend the working area safely into shallower waters. The jets also
contribute significantly to maneuverability since they can essentially
vector thrust in any direction.

The fins are to provide the directional stability normally contributed by
the drag of struts, props, and rudders. They also contribute to roll
damping.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:46add541$0$16582
:

The jet boat could
probably plow right through an oyster bar and keep right on operating
although the transducers and bottom paint would suffer.


That really depends a LOT on which jet pump is used. If the jet used has a
stator a few cm behind its spinning impeller, it will very soon be
destroyed by the first piece of hard flotsam that it ingests. Case in
point is any jetski jet or the Mercury SportJet pumps. The spinning
impeller is very, very close to the cast aluminum stator used to stop the
water spinning out the back and is required to produce linear thrust. If
ANYTHING gets between that stator and the prop, it eats the drivetrain,
instantly.

Not all jets are made for river bottom dragging service like those
wonderful jetboats made in Oz.....(c; You get a SportJet near the bottom,
it's going to be a very expensive cruise...very quickly.

Larry
--

UNInformed interior design.
 

On Jul 30, 2:11 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
It is a jet boat because it will be operating primarily in the shallow
waters ...
The fins are to provide the directional stability normally contributed by
the drag of struts, props, and rudders. They also contribute to roll
damping. ...

That sounds very sensible. The placement and shape of the fins is
also interesting. I was wondering if you had chosen the long, shallow
fins outboard on the chines to control the flow at the jet intakes or
increase hull lift (perhaps to make up for the absence of strakes). I
was also curious about the linkage between the jets and the engines.
On the profile it looks like you might need two CV joints because the
shaft doesn't line up. Thanks again for the education. FWIW, I
think it is a handsome design. I suspect the builders appreciate the
straight forward development of the hull, too.

-- Tom.

UNInformed interior design.
 

On 2007-07-30 08:11:00 -0400, "Roger Long" said:

It is a jet boat because it will be operating primarily in the shallow
waters of Chesapeake Bay and a lot of areas of interest are the thin
parts. The draft of the jet boat isn't significantly different than a
prop boat with tunnels but there is a big difference running with just
a foot or two of water under you when the first thing to strike will be
spinning props that will send you the the shipyard for haulout if they
touch. The jets will ingest a lot of oyster shells and other debris.
The jet boat could probably plow right through an oyster bar and keep
right on operating although the transducers and bottom paint would
suffer.

Most of the bay has a thick bottom of mostly mud, but an awful lot of
it is 6'.

Interesting set of considerations. Hope to see it operating about the Bay.

Any idea where they plan to berth it?

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's new pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI pages: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Jere Lull" wrote

Any idea where they plan to berth it?

It will be based in Solomons at the UMCES Fleet Facility where the Aquarius,
the current vessel, is now moored.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

The jets
will ingest a lot of oyster shells and other debris. The jet boat could
probably plow right through an oyster bar and keep right on operating

Gee, destroying the waters they're trying to research isn't exactly sound
logic. I'd also wonder how much more damage the water flow from the jets
would cause during maneuvering a boat of that size.

Not saying this as an argument for props though. More that it's dumb to
plan to go into places that will very likely cause greater harm to the
enivonment that necessary. Take a dinghy or launch instead, not some huge
vessel.

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Bill Kearney" wkearney-99@hot-mail-com wrote

(poorly thought out and semi-informed drivel)

Come on, they aren't going to intentionally go plowing through the bottom.
But, any vessel that routinely works in shallow water is bound to touch
sometime.

The bottom damaging wash of props is right down at the bottom and radiates.
The jet output is horizontal and at the surface. There is a large downward
component in reverse but at slow speeds neither this nor the suction is
going to be significantly more destructive to bottom habitat than props.

Schottle Pump Jets, another kind of water jet, were originally developed
primarily to provide propulsion over sensitive bottom areas. Only later did
they prove to be excellent bow and stern thrusters.

This is not a water sampling vessel. There are plenty of small craft to do
that job. You are not going to take the kind of gear this vessel will be
deploying in small boats.

--
Roger Long

UNInformed interior design.
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Bill Kearney" wkearney-99@hot-mail-com wrote

(poorly thought out and semi-informed drivel)

And "**** you too".

UNInformed interior design.
 

Consider it done.

--
Roger Long