Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well. So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On 04 Dec 2003 04:04:56 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

On 04 Dec 2003 04:04:56 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

If it is away from the pickup, then it isn't entering into the problem.
If things get stirred up then the polishing system will do its job
better.

Of course. But in the context of "bubbling" the fuel to "polish" it, it doesn't
do much good.

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Good suggestions. I'll try and clean up the schematic and take a
closer look at it.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the
engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine
than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing
system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well.
So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes
to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install
vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor
and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return
lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system
return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also
use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Good suggestions. I'll try and clean up the schematic and take a
closer look at it.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:44:05 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

Just a quick reply since I'm about ready to hit the sack. I think you are
saying that the polishing system should be something that can be switched
inline on the way to the engine. That amounts to just more pre-engine
filtering.
What I want is a system that can recirculate fuel independent of the
engine
system. From what I gather, recirculating fuel through a filtering system
will
result in clean fuel so that the engine system will not be stressed (lift
pump).
Also, much crud is built up while just sitting in the slip or on the hard
over
the winter. Better to clean it up prior to offering it up to the engine
than
hitting the engine filters all at once.

With the system I described below, what you can do is, while the engine
is not running (there are long periods when it's off, right?) shut off
the valve to the engine intake. Then you have your system that can
recirculate fuel through the filtering system and clean the fuel in the
tank without it going to the engine. Leave the pump on for a few days
or until the filters clog, whichever comes first, before opening the
valve to the engine. Then open the engine valve to run it and it'll get
the freshest filtered fuel possible because it's drawing it right from
the polishing system.

Of course, the disadvantage of doing it this way is that if you don't
install polishing system bypass valves, you have to run the walbro pump
whenever you're running the engine. I've found that to be not all that
much of a disadvantage and the advantage is that fuel is being polished
whenever the engine is running. You can always wire it into the
ignition switch with a double solenoid relay so that the pump can be
controlled via the ignition switch or another switch with a 12 hour
timer so you can set it and leave the boat and it'll turn off on it's
own after running for 12 hours.

There sre so many different ways you can plumb the thing. The more
flexability you want, the more valves and piping you need. The
disadvantage to making it too flexable is that it becomes too complex
and prone to operator error as well as developing a vacuum leak
somewhere.

Your ACSII schematic came across totally skewed. That is a problem
with proportional fonts and TABs :)

I know. I didn't use tabs though, just spaces. So if you cut'n'paste
the schematic into a word processor and choose a fixed width font it'll
look fine.

Steve

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:10:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

I understood that you were suggesting that I leave the polishing
system
running while running the engine. Since I have 2 tanks it seems to me
to require two polishing systems to keep polishing while running. The
system I have designed allows me to polish either of the two tanks
at any time and run the engine out of either tank at any time as well.
So
I can polish the same one I am running out of if I wish. I guess the
choice of which to polish while running is up for grabs.

I think I'd route it so that I can route either tank to the polishing
system then 'T' the polishing system to the engine and the return to
either tank. Just make sure you're returning to the same tank you're
drawing from. A simplified version (without bypass plumbing which is a
pain to draw) looks something like this: (view with fixed point font
like courier)

-------------- /--------------------------T---------|
| Y select / return to tanks | |
---------- | --------------- |
| | |(to tank 2) | check valve | |
| Tank 1 | --------------- |
| |---------- ------------- | |
---------- | | Polishing | -------- | ----------
|from | filters | | | | \ | |
Y select /----| with |-| Pump |-T- \-| Engine |
---------- /tanks| bypassing | | | | |
| | | ------------- -------- ----------
| Tank 2 | |
| |----------
---------- out

If the above ascii drawing looks horrible, sorry.:) But basically, the
supply from both tanks goes to a Y valve which feeds either to the
polishing filters. That's where you'd put the bypass valves so you can
go around any filter (GCF or Racor). Then to a T where one side goes
to
a shutoff valve then to the engine. The shutoff valve is so that you
can turn off fuel to the engine while you're priming the system after
changing filters so air won't get in the engine. You can also plumb it
so that the engine can draw from the tanka bypassing the filters so you
can prime them and run the engine at the same time if that's a
requirement. I didn't care about that since I don't run the engine all
that much (sailboat.) Also not shown is that you want to install
vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filter, one between the GCF and the Racor
and
one after the Racor before the Walbro pump. Any difference more than a
few psi across a filter means it's time for an element change.

The other side of the T goes to a check valve. That's there so that if
the electric pump fails the engine won't suck air from the return
lines.
Then there's a T where the engine return and the polishing system
return
join and go to another Y valve to select where to return the fuel to.
Just make sure both Y valves are in the same position. You can also
use
this as a fuel transfering pump if you want to, by putting the Y valves
in different positions. But be careful you don't overflow the tank
being filled.

Steve

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Whatever.

It was a joke Doug. Note the :-)

You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for.

Hardly.

Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.


If you say so.
But I would doubt it.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

Whatever.

It was a joke Doug. Note the :-)

You've lost sight of the outcome being strived for.

Hardly.

Don't
need bad weather. Just a trip down the ICW will stir up the fuel
tanks.


If you say so.
But I would doubt it.

Capt. Bill

Fuel transfer/polishing pump
 

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From:

This is why I like the way my system is plumbed, i.e., the engine draws
from the polishing system. That way, you don't have to worry about
stirring up the fuel to polish it. If the engine is running and you're
in rough weather, it's being filtered before going to the engine. If
you have it in a separate loop and you run into rough weather that stirs
up the tank, you can introduce dirt from the tank wall that wasn't
dislodged while you were polishing and it'll get to the engine.

You don't have to worry about bubbling or stirring it up if it's always
being filtered before getting to the engine. And you can run the system
with the engine off also to get a multiple pass circulation just like if
it was in a separate loop.

Sounds good to me.

Capt. Bill