This originally appeared in a thread about marine heads...

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Skip
What kind of boat did you buy?

We haven't yet. We had an accepted offer on a Mason 43 which Lydia rejected
based on the teak and stern cabin redo needed. We expect the deposit back
this week.

We've (well, I've) been on an additional nearly-60 boats this past couple of
weeks, however, and the E43 is one of our candidates. There's several other
candidates, but they're either bigger than we want, more expensive than we
want, or more teak, and in some cases all three.

So, in any event, we've now got options, at least, whereas before we had
only one boat which we'd been aboard which 'fit' us. I'm finishing this
round of search in a couple of weeks. Likely I'll not go to Texas, as it's
a huge distance for only a couple of unique (not duplicated somewhere else
in our list) boats, and the story about the Morgan (in another thread) which
was misrepresented makes me very reluctant to go somewhere remote for
something I'm not sure I'll want to see.

In this trip, I was exposed to additional boats which had not been on our
list when I set out; two of them are on our target list, but one's been
removed (the Mason). It's coming along... The next trip will have us on
another 10 or so boats (make, model) under 40' which we've not yet been
aboard, and I've dumped the ones over 45 that I'd added in frustration in
our prior failures.

However, with the exception of Delaware to Maine, we'll have effectively
covered the East and Gulf coast. That ought to do it for us, and then it
will be a matter of our doing some triangulation to figure out what we want
vs what we'll have to give up among the boats we've found which *can* work.
At this time, there's about 5 types which we've found that work for us.
We're hopeful of adding at least a few more in the under-40 class and will
likely have several more over 40 as well.

By the time I'm finished, I will have been aboard over 250 boats, out of
about 350 initially selected from about 2500 possibilities (length,
location, price), in three trips (searches, really, as this search will take
two or three trips and the last search was two trips). Just as in buying
houses, the hundred-item rule is in effect. After having been aboard that
many, I can tell in about a minute if a boat will be interesting to me, and
in about 5, determine whether I want to pursue it beyond a swift walk
through, and in about 10 if I want to do a full workup on it. Before I even
attempt to see one, I've done research on the type, and have good reason to
believe that it will work for us.

Of course, as you've seen in other threads, the number of times that reality
meets presentation is pretty small - but I regard that as all just part of
the exercise. However, once *this* part of the exercise is finished, we'll
be able to attack the surviving types and make reasonable evaluations
between apples and oranges, so to speak.

I'm in the process of developing an appraisal equivalent format. That is,
each feature and spec of significance to us, whether positive or negative,
will be given a value. Just as in a real estate appraisal, where more in a
property being compared represents a deduction against the candidate, and
vice versa, we expect we should be able to quantify what really winds our
clock, and evaluate how best to pursue any given boat. After that, it's gut
feeling (which one do we really *love*?) :{))

L8R

Skip (and Lydia)

Look group, Skip has every right to be picky about his boat. I sold my C&C
and bought an Endeavour 43 for the very same reason...head room. I gave up
sailing ability for comfort. If I had on thing to be critical of regarding
Skip, is that he went into the contract phase prematurely. He should have
gotten this negative worked out with Lydia before the contract was signed.
I think that if the broker wanted to be a real a$$hole, he could
realistically forced Skip to go to survey where he could then reject the
boat.
If this we my deal, I would have put a $dollar value on the cosmetics and
then proceeded to the contract and survey phase and find out what the real
cost would be bring the boat back to Bristol. There is always a reason why
a boat will not sell after three years and it is generally condition,
condition, condition. All that relates to price. A Mason 43 is a fantastic
boat and is worth putting some money into but you don't throw away the deal
until you hear from the surveyor. Skip will end up looking back at this
boat knowing he could have done the cosmetic work for half what he is
spending in the search.


--
See how our Endeavour is progressing at
www.cruisinglife.net/horizonproject.htm

Hi, Y'all...

I gotta admit that I'm bemused by the tempest in a teapot over our search.
If you don't want to read about it, the delete key is your friend.
Otherwise, exult in how you did yours, and let the rest of us enjoy *your*
process. Tomayto, tomahto, etc...

That said...

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Look group, Skip has every right to be picky about his boat. I sold my
C&C
and bought an Endeavour 43 for the very same reason...head room. I gave
up
sailing ability for comfort. If I had on thing to be critical of
regarding
Skip, is that he went into the contract phase prematurely. He should have

That's a fair statement. What you've heard about by inference, but not by
living with it, is that Lydia absolutely detests the shopping process, and
wants to buy a boat yesterday. That was how that offer happened - I was on
the phone with her a few times along the way in the course of the (aboard)
tour, ending with my cell phone battery dying, and my doing more
conversation in the office of the broker. Our normal modus for considering
an offer is to have done some very careful analysis after having gathered
the info. That phase was missed here.

gotten this negative worked out with Lydia before the contract was signed.
I think that if the broker wanted to be a real a$$hole, he could
realistically forced Skip to go to survey where he could then reject the
boat.

The contract stated very plainly that it was contingent on personal
inspection by Lydia, which we did in detail over the weekend when I got
home, including my usual detailed video and notes. In addition, as I
continue the trip, I'd set that up a bit by comparing this boat to many we'd
already seen, along with ones I was seeing later in the trip. Unless the
boat really wound her clock when we did the review, it was already a dead
duck. Case in point was a totally bristol, much better equipped, Endeavour
43 that I'd seen with the asshole broker (the one he kept pressuring me to
buy while there was a contract working) which could have been bought at
essentially the same price. Back to the contract, there was no gray area,
other than a potential, I suppose, to interpret "personal inspection" to
mean on-site. And this broker was no asshole...

If this we my deal, I would have put a $dollar value on the cosmetics and
then proceeded to the contract and survey phase and find out what the real
cost would be bring the boat back to Bristol. There is always a reason
why
a boat will not sell after three years and it is generally condition,
condition, condition. All that relates to price. A Mason 43 is a
fantastic
boat and is worth putting some money into but you don't throw away the
deal
until you hear from the surveyor. Skip will end up looking back at this
boat knowing he could have done the cosmetic work for half what he is
spending in the search.

Heh. I think I'm even better at doing bargains than you, Bruce. Our total
search costs - travel expenses, including rental cars during fixing - and
those costs, too, since if we'd done them at home they'd have been parts
only - of our classics which we'd rather drive, instead of some stale
relia-box, to date are under 2 grand. If you think I can get teak decks
removed and redone, other teak refinished and structurally alter a stern
cabin (cosmetically) for anything close to that, I'm all ears, because I
think it could be bought, still. However, there's still the issue of having
no stern cabin when the mods were done (the entry space would now be filled
with berth) - and then there's the issue that I'd rather have your boat than
that one, redone, particularly at the same price, and I know where one is...

We're getting very much closer, and I'm encouraged, whereas I was definitely
discouraged after the first FL segment of our search. We now have choices,
and I fully expect to have others by the time I'm finished this year. As
always, if a boat reaches out and grabs me by the neck and won't let go,
most likely we'll buy it. So far the only instance of that is one which is
half again beyond our (already substantially raised) budget - but we're
thinking about it, even so...

L8R

Skip
PS
See how our Endeavour is progressing at
www.cruisinglife.net/horizonproject.htm

I'm impressed - but as long as it's taking, given the temperament here, I
imagine you've gotten a lot of flak about why you're not out sailing, since
it obviously is taking too long, and you're much too fussy :{))

I think you do need to buy a boat and use it. You can use it and change if you
want. Life is too short for the stuff you are describing.

Take it for one who know's. We bought a hull and deck and spent 4 years
building it. In retrospect, we shoulda bought a boat sooner, sailed it, sold
it and bought another.

On the other hand, we are proud of her.

fairwinds.

Rich
SV Jasmine

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner - I was on yet another trip with a myriad
of boats to see...

"Toolowd" wrote in message
...
I think you do need to buy a boat and use it. You can use it and change
if you
want. Life is too short for the stuff you are describing.

Take it for one who know's. We bought a hull and deck and spent 4 years
building it. In retrospect, we shoulda bought a boat sooner, sailed it,
sold
it and bought another.

On the other hand, we are proud of her.

fairwinds.

Rich
SV Jasmine

Well, sorta. We expect to put the huge majority of our liquid assets into
the boat, and then cut the lines and live aboard it, sailing it in every
free moment, and cruising when we're not working in the high season. Can't
easily just start over with a different boat.

That said, the more I read, in various places, the more I realize that we're
doing about what all the serious liveaboarders have done - but we're talking
about it in the process.

Read the recent Good Old Boat issues for some pointed examples of that.
Read some Cruising World issues, join the sailnet newsletter list and read
some of the ones who are really doing it's stories, and you'll see, if
anything, we're making extraordinary progress. It looks very much like
we'll have bought our home in less than a year since we started the process
of actually looking, including the missteps of trying (thus far futilely) to
find a boat I could stand and sleep on at too little money and length.

The one thing we've not yet done that all the others seem to have (and we're
hopeful of avoiding if at all possible) is to have boats we walk from after
buying a survey. David Pascoe (a surveyor, mostly of power boats) has a
marvelous website with what I consider to be a large amount of resources;
his essay about 'after the survey' is priceless - and happens to agree with
my thoughts about a survey which has revealed some problems with an older
boat. So, absent some really horrific stuff, likely we'll buy the boat
we've chosen to survey...

Stay tuned for an update on our travails and travels...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy

--
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner - I was on yet another trip with a myriad
of boats to see...

"Toolowd" wrote in message
...
I think you do need to buy a boat and use it. You can use it and change
if you
want. Life is too short for the stuff you are describing.

Take it for one who know's. We bought a hull and deck and spent 4 years
building it. In retrospect, we shoulda bought a boat sooner, sailed it,
sold
it and bought another.

On the other hand, we are proud of her.

fairwinds.

Rich
SV Jasmine

Well, sorta. We expect to put the huge majority of our liquid assets into
the boat, and then cut the lines and live aboard it, sailing it in every
free moment, and cruising when we're not working in the high season. Can't
easily just start over with a different boat.

That said, the more I read, in various places, the more I realize that we're
doing about what all the serious liveaboarders have done - but we're talking
about it in the process.

Read the recent Good Old Boat issues for some pointed examples of that.
Read some Cruising World issues, join the sailnet newsletter list and read
some of the ones who are really doing it's stories, and you'll see, if
anything, we're making extraordinary progress. It looks very much like
we'll have bought our home in less than a year since we started the process
of actually looking, including the missteps of trying (thus far futilely) to
find a boat I could stand and sleep on at too little money and length.

The one thing we've not yet done that all the others seem to have (and we're
hopeful of avoiding if at all possible) is to have boats we walk from after
buying a survey. David Pascoe (a surveyor, mostly of power boats) has a
marvelous website with what I consider to be a large amount of resources;
his essay about 'after the survey' is priceless - and happens to agree with
my thoughts about a survey which has revealed some problems with an older
boat. So, absent some really horrific stuff, likely we'll buy the boat
we've chosen to survey...

Stay tuned for an update on our travails and travels...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy

--
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover." - Mark Twain

I think you do need to buy a boat and use it. You can use it and change if you
want. Life is too short for the stuff you are describing.

Take it for one who know's. We bought a hull and deck and spent 4 years
building it. In retrospect, we shoulda bought a boat sooner, sailed it, sold
it and bought another.

On the other hand, we are proud of her.

fairwinds.

Rich
SV Jasmine

Hi, Y'all...

I gotta admit that I'm bemused by the tempest in a teapot over our search.
If you don't want to read about it, the delete key is your friend.
Otherwise, exult in how you did yours, and let the rest of us enjoy *your*
process. Tomayto, tomahto, etc...

That said...

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Look group, Skip has every right to be picky about his boat. I sold my
C&C
and bought an Endeavour 43 for the very same reason...head room. I gave
up
sailing ability for comfort. If I had on thing to be critical of
regarding
Skip, is that he went into the contract phase prematurely. He should have

That's a fair statement. What you've heard about by inference, but not by
living with it, is that Lydia absolutely detests the shopping process, and
wants to buy a boat yesterday. That was how that offer happened - I was on
the phone with her a few times along the way in the course of the (aboard)
tour, ending with my cell phone battery dying, and my doing more
conversation in the office of the broker. Our normal modus for considering
an offer is to have done some very careful analysis after having gathered
the info. That phase was missed here.

gotten this negative worked out with Lydia before the contract was signed.
I think that if the broker wanted to be a real a$$hole, he could
realistically forced Skip to go to survey where he could then reject the
boat.

The contract stated very plainly that it was contingent on personal
inspection by Lydia, which we did in detail over the weekend when I got
home, including my usual detailed video and notes. In addition, as I
continue the trip, I'd set that up a bit by comparing this boat to many we'd
already seen, along with ones I was seeing later in the trip. Unless the
boat really wound her clock when we did the review, it was already a dead
duck. Case in point was a totally bristol, much better equipped, Endeavour
43 that I'd seen with the asshole broker (the one he kept pressuring me to
buy while there was a contract working) which could have been bought at
essentially the same price. Back to the contract, there was no gray area,
other than a potential, I suppose, to interpret "personal inspection" to
mean on-site. And this broker was no asshole...

If this we my deal, I would have put a $dollar value on the cosmetics and
then proceeded to the contract and survey phase and find out what the real
cost would be bring the boat back to Bristol. There is always a reason
why
a boat will not sell after three years and it is generally condition,
condition, condition. All that relates to price. A Mason 43 is a
fantastic
boat and is worth putting some money into but you don't throw away the
deal
until you hear from the surveyor. Skip will end up looking back at this
boat knowing he could have done the cosmetic work for half what he is
spending in the search.

Heh. I think I'm even better at doing bargains than you, Bruce. Our total
search costs - travel expenses, including rental cars during fixing - and
those costs, too, since if we'd done them at home they'd have been parts
only - of our classics which we'd rather drive, instead of some stale
relia-box, to date are under 2 grand. If you think I can get teak decks
removed and redone, other teak refinished and structurally alter a stern
cabin (cosmetically) for anything close to that, I'm all ears, because I
think it could be bought, still. However, there's still the issue of having
no stern cabin when the mods were done (the entry space would now be filled
with berth) - and then there's the issue that I'd rather have your boat than
that one, redone, particularly at the same price, and I know where one is...

We're getting very much closer, and I'm encouraged, whereas I was definitely
discouraged after the first FL segment of our search. We now have choices,
and I fully expect to have others by the time I'm finished this year. As
always, if a boat reaches out and grabs me by the neck and won't let go,
most likely we'll buy it. So far the only instance of that is one which is
half again beyond our (already substantially raised) budget - but we're
thinking about it, even so...

L8R

Skip
PS
See how our Endeavour is progressing at
www.cruisinglife.net/horizonproject.htm

I'm impressed - but as long as it's taking, given the temperament here, I
imagine you've gotten a lot of flak about why you're not out sailing, since
it obviously is taking too long, and you're much too fussy :{))

Look group, Skip has every right to be picky about his boat. I sold my C&C
and bought an Endeavour 43 for the very same reason...head room. I gave up
sailing ability for comfort. If I had on thing to be critical of regarding
Skip, is that he went into the contract phase prematurely. He should have
gotten this negative worked out with Lydia before the contract was signed.
I think that if the broker wanted to be a real a$$hole, he could
realistically forced Skip to go to survey where he could then reject the
boat.
If this we my deal, I would have put a $dollar value on the cosmetics and
then proceeded to the contract and survey phase and find out what the real
cost would be bring the boat back to Bristol. There is always a reason why
a boat will not sell after three years and it is generally condition,
condition, condition. All that relates to price. A Mason 43 is a fantastic
boat and is worth putting some money into but you don't throw away the deal
until you hear from the surveyor. Skip will end up looking back at this
boat knowing he could have done the cosmetic work for half what he is
spending in the search.


--
See how our Endeavour is progressing at
www.cruisinglife.net/horizonproject.htm