Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Jeff" wrote in message ... * Wayne.B wrote, On 4/16/2007 1:09 PM: On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote: Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable, and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and typically with no harm done. Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would go over just about every time. My final decision to buy my cat was on a gusty day on the Chesapeake - winds were 15-20, gusting up bit past that. We were beating at about 50 degrees true, slowing catching a Hunter. A gust hit us and the Hunter went rail down, stalling out, but we just accelerated and went by. Then the salesman told me to bear off a bit more, and the speed shot up to 10 knots and I was hooked! There is no doubt that in more extreme situations a catamaran can be at risk. My boat (and several others I know of) are designed such that full sail can generate enough force to tip her over in 45 knots. Of course, carrying full sail in 45 knots is normally a no-no, so the key is to anticipate such situations and not get caught. Personally, I deliberately undersized my sails - stackpack on main, high cut 120 jib instead of the standard 130. I reef early and often, and don't hesitate to run the engine if it seems more prudent. Others take the opposite approach, using a tall rig with a large headsail to optimize performance in lighter air, but my thinking is that this only moves the need for powering a couple of knots of wind lower, and complicates things when it blows up. More lame excuses than Carter's got pills! 1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop. 2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from capsizing in the first place. 3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply unconscionable, Jeff. Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities. Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed up on shore days later. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Jeff" wrote in message ... * Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM: On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote: He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING MONOHULL....(c; Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet although there is a lot of denial about that. :-) I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom? This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit. As for self righting, there are many, many stories of monohulls being dismasted, often with structural damage. This was certainly not the only rescue of the season You again show you ignorant bias. You seem to think catamaran capsizes and monohull capsizes should happen in equal proportions. And if you hear of more monohull capsizes that bodes well for multihulls. But, you forget that out on the oceans where capsizes mostly occur there are probably 100 monohulls voyaging for every multi-hull voyaging. So, I've heard of a half-dozen multi-hull capsizing in the past year so it would follow, that if there was equal danger of monohulls capsizing, there would have to be 600 tales of monohulls capsizing. See how silly your rationalizing becomes when looked at realistically? Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
On Apr 16, 2:48 pm, "Joe" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe I take it back, there are trip preventers, but they are so small I did not notice them in the pictures. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Joe" wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... "Joe" wrote in message oups.com... On Apr 16, 2:14 pm, Vic Smith wrote: The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. --Vic We had some pretty nasty, high wind fronts come through that night. 50-60 kt winds here for a few minutes. Any boat in the wrong situation will capsize. This one, less than a year old, capsized and suck in the north sea a few days ago killing 4 crew members and a 14 yo boy, the skippers son. http://www.bergenships.com/Bourbon%20Dolphin.html They are not sure what happened yet, but my guess is they tripped while setting anchors. IMO the boat was a bit small for anchor work in the north sea. Most anchor boat here in the gulf are in the 220 ft range, also note no trip preventers on the headache rails. Sometimes you live and learn, sometimes you don't. Joe That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs. That's the design of the supply boats used around here. http://www.btinternet.com/~derek.mac...vessels01d.htm |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:14 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote: You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that plague monohulls. The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped. I took a guess based on the conditions - it takes a huge wave to pitchpole a cruising cat, but it could be capsized by a squall if proper care was not taken. If so, that puts a different light on it. Does it? Maybe if they pitchpoled while under bare poles. BTW, "plowing into a wave" is not sufficient to pitchpole a cruising cat. I've hit 10 foot square waves head on and simply gone straight through. To pitch pole you have to surf down a wave face, such that you're bow is well depressed when you hit bottom with a lot of momentum. The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35' I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and weather circumstance of the incident. Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the boat capsized. Certainly - we have almost no information about the incident. I presumed that the weather was not too severe - certainly the video did not look that harsh and a quick check of the buoys didn't reveal any serious weather. If we rule out hurricanes and the like, then its hard imagine a pitchpole situation. The news did imply they were hit by a squall, and in that case being overpowered is possible. This site is interesting for those seeking info on catamarans. http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm --Vic ps. If Wilbur is right I might switch my boat-buying plans from the Gemini 105 to the Mac 26M. If you're planning Atlantic crossing, neither is appropriate. However, for cruising Maine, the Chesapeake, or the ICW, the Keys, and maybe a hop to the Bahamas, the Gemini would be just fine. You must remember that Neal (aka Wilbur) lives on a 27 foot boat, and while he claims its a "fine blue water passagemaker" he's never actually been out of sight of land for more than a few hours. And frankly since he hasn't shown any new pictures in several years, there's some doubt as to whether it survived last year's storms. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 4/16/2007 3:27 PM:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... .... More lame excuses than Carter's got pills! 1) undersized sails to reduce the danger of capsize tells me you realize you sail an unsafe boat. Using the engine more is a necessity with undersized sails unless you enjoy sitting and wallowing in the slop. No - I wanted the stack pack, and I don't like "deck sweeper" jibs that restricted visibility. I wasn't trying to under size the sails, I just had no reason to oversize them. 2) a boat that capsizes and stays upside-down in a mere 45 knot blow in flat water is probably going to capsize in a thirty knot blow in a six foot sea. You just don't have the benefit of a heavy keel that self-rights a boat if it capsizes and, more importantly, keeps it from capsizing in the first place. Sorry, you don't seem to understand the physics here. In general, it would actually take both a 45 knots gust AND a large wave to capsize a cat. 3) You were impressed by a turn of speed, which turn of speed comes at the expense of safety. In my opinion, that's a logical choice only if you single hand and don't value your life or have relatives who depend on you being alive. Any sane, responsible, family man would forego the speed for safety. You selfish lust for a few more knots of speed which is probably no longer in evidence because of how you overloaded your boat might well cause the demise of you and your loved ones. Simply unconscionable, Jeff. Your comments might be worth some consideration if in fact I was in the habit of making North Atlantic crossings in winter. But you know well that I have never taken my family out on anything longer than a simple overnight crossing, and severe weather does not hit without warning. Time to grow up and accept your responsibilities. You're funny, Neal! You've never taken any responsibility - never married, never had a family, never owned property. You lost your boat so now you hide behind sock puppets. And you lecture about "responsibility." BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Sell that death trap NOW and buy something safe. May I suggest a nice heavy displacement, safe rugged Westsail 32? One of those survived almost unscathed the Perfect Storm even when left abandoned and washed up on shore days later. I have good friends that had a Westsail (and are themselves good friends of the skipper of Satori). They loved the security of the boat. However, the boat was too heavy for them to handle as they got older, and they ended up powering all of the time. And remember, in the infamous "Queen's Birthday" Typhoon several years ago two boats ended up on the bottom - a Westsail that was abandoned (because no one on board could handle the tiller) and another heavy displacement monohull that was lost with all hands. The two multihulls that were abandoned were later salvaged. |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
That's about the most unseaworthy looking design I've ever seen. How stupid to put all that weight forward with so little astern to keep it from nose diving right to the bottom. The architect who designed that pile of crap should be taken out and shot. Wilbur Hubbard- - OK Wilbore I'll bite. Below the back deck are two main engine that weighs more than the superstructure, plus 4-6 cement tanks that carry 2000 sacks each, 2-4 liquid mud tanks that carry up to 20,000 gallons, 25,000 gal fuel, 4000, gallons of firefighting foam, ect.ect.ect. The forward structure is built like it is to keep the decks clear for cargo. She is neither top heavy, or forward heavy. Joe |
Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:18:11 GMT, "Don White" said: I guess you don't get out of the swamp and out to offshore oil rigs. Gotta cut Neal a little slack. He's not the brightest bulb on the tree. He blew it there... it's now obvious that all his talk of long distance cruising is no more than bilge water. |
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