Standards
There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a
sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? |
Standards
First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it.
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? |
Standards
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
There are high standards and there are low standards. Yes and after lurking in here for just a short while I've noticed that you do not meet my standards. Do you even own a boat? *plonk* |
Standards
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry to represent quality. Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced. Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here. Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their efforts on that issue. Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business? The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used, laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your shallow method of "standards." Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is "classic." Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum to view such fossils. Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats, which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef." More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials and that tried and true construction techniques are used. Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about one man-year of sensible data. Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but reality steps in even there. Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make a note anyway. To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck materials and attentive construction process are the premier consideration to me. All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design constraints. I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS, but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not. Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an owner may provide class to any boat. http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm --Vic Some good thoughts but there need be no gray areas and shoddy building practices if one builds a sailboat according to Lloyds standards. Good building practices are no accident and they generally always result in a more expensive boat. The only way to produce an inexpensive boat is to not build it to high standards. People know this but they go ahead and buy junk and they buy junk in bulk quantities. It's stupid and it's shameful. If you build a boat to Lloyds specifications you must have almost everything inspected and checked off a punch list. The inspector insures there are no shortcuts or shoddy workmanship. The inspector is not free. So, of course the selling price of the yacht must be higher. It all goes back to standards. But a boat built to Lloyds standards and you get the best. Buy a piece of garbage like the MacGregor and you are guaranteed a cut-corners boat. Owning a cut-corners boat demonstrates for the entire world to see that the owner is a cut-corners type of guy. If a lawyer is proud of his MacGregor 26 then that tells me he's a cut-corners person and not the person I want litigating an important case where cutting corners will most likely be disastrous. If my doctor owns and is proud of a Mac26 then what corners is he going to cut when he operates on me. Is he going to wash his hands thoroughly? Is he going to use autoclaved instruments? So, when I see any cut-corners kind of guy out in a Mac26 I have to ask myself what other corners is this guy going to cut. Does he even know the basic navigation rules? Does he know how to anchor? Does he have the proper safety equipment? After all he has already demonstrated that he has no standards because of his boat purchase. Isn't it likely his sloppiness and lack of standards permeates his entire life? I think so. That's why I don't want any Macgregor's anywhere near me. The good news is offshore where I am most of the time one rarely sees a Mac26 because even if Mac owners have low standards they still value their lives enough to stay within site of land. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
wrote in message ... First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it. One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working. That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very simple. Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26... Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad! Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Keep in mind that many "premier" name boats use teak and cabinetry to represent quality. Initial visible hardware may be 3 steps above an inexpensive boat like a Mac, Catalina or Coronado, but hardware can be readily replaced. Design and cost is the first consideration for high-volume sales, and the Mac and Catalina boats have done well here. Hull/deck construction and the consistency of the materials and manufacturing processes are the "quality" hallmarks of mass produced boats. Their sales and the longevity of the boats speak well to their efforts on that issue. Why do you suppose many sailboat builders have gone out of business? The boats found no market as new, but still are bought used, laboriously maintained, if not sailed, by those who adhere to your shallow method of "standards." Such conduct reminds me of that of those fans of old "classic" cars who lovingly replace every piece of rusted metal and rotten upholstery. The car becomes different in its entirety, has cost many times more than its original cost, is still archaic in its engineering, won't be used as originally intended, but it is "classic." Ok if that's what you want, but I simply go to the appropriate museum to view such fossils. Having done much sailing and living aboard many boats of varying costs from my basement here in N. Illinois, I can speak with more authority than those who simply hook-swing on barnacle-encrusted old boats, which will perhaps sadly too soon become part of the natural seascape in obeying the sea-faring version of nature's "Ashes to ashes," which can be termed nautically as "Coronado to reef." More important to me is the quality of the boat in hull/deck materials and that tried and true construction techniques are used. Contrary to your limited experience in that area, I have done considerable study, employing the experience of thousands of man-years of sailboat owners. Had to use thousands, since it takes about a thousand man-years of sailboat owner "experience" to glean about one man-year of sensible data. Having seen that the Parker Dawson didn't even use washers under its deck cleat nuts, and learning from a friend - a blue water sailor - that he found while preparing his recently purchased Ted Hood designed Wauquiez Hood 38 MK II a serious thru-hull builder error which could sink him, and seeing other instances of "quality" boats being less than their reputation, I am especially sensitive to initial build quality. You have used the Wauquiez name favorably in one of your eloquent trolls, and I have no doubt it is a fine boat, but reality steps in even there. Below is a link to the Mac 26 build process. Nice. You probably know that drunk Frenchmen are less reliable boat builders than illegal Mexicans who can be deported should they make a mistake, but make a note anyway. To sum up the whole "standards" issue, which is always iffy unless one actually supervises construction, a boat is just so many pounds of materials put together to serve a design purpose. Initial hull/deck materials and attentive construction process are the premier consideration to me. All afterward can be improved if needed/desired, within the design constraints. I know you feel threatened by Macs, especially the 90HP ETECS, but you will have to deal with that insecurity as you travel the path of life. Maybe it helps to tell you that if I get a Mac I'll probably put only a 25HP 4-stroke on it, and paint it mustard. Maybe not. Anyway, as I see it no boat will provide class to any owner, but an owner may provide class to any boat. http://www.macgregor26.com/construct...nstruction.htm --Vic |
Standards
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad! Wilbur Hubbard Wilber, I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being. |
Standards
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: wrote in message ... First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it. One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working. That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very simple. Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26... I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards. For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard. Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds Standard stamp of approval? Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others. http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773 Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly. Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle. In your heart you know that. One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset. But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds. --Vic Thanks. That's a good link. It proves my point. It says: "For that same reason, American builders have been slow to encourage the use of classifications because buyers aren't familiar with them and, almost to a man, they all claim to build better boats than required by the societies. Whether that is true or not is just as debatable as whether a buyer would want a boat built to society standards. One well-known builder noted that it is impossible to build the high-speed motoryachts, now so popular, to classification because of the sacrifices necessary to keep the weight to a minimum. The societies, on the other hand, point out that they have been classing high-speed patrol craft and other speed-oriented vessels for many years, and suggest that the builder is probably cutting many corners in search of an extra knot or two." Cutting many corners in search for an extra knot or two? Sound familiar? Sounds like it describes a MacGregor 26. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
"krj" wrote in message ... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad! Wilbur Hubbard Wilber, I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being. You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her? Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:47:54 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: wrote in message ... First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it. One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working. That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very simple. Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26... I believe the Wauquiez I mentioned earlier, which had a serious build defect, touts the Lloyds Standards imprimatur in one fashion or another. While not disagreeing about standards being essential in just about any endeavor, there are standards and there are standards. For Powersailors (very cool term) the Mac sets the standard. Would you think less of the Coronado if it didn't have a Lloyds Standard stamp of approval? Here's a link giving a cursory look at Lloyds Standards and others. http://www.boats.com/news-reviews/ar....html?lid=2773 Very costly initially and must be renewed yearly. Other browsing indicates the term Lloyds Standards is used - or misused - dishonestly, as a true Lloyds Standard boat must meet many requirements. Using the term Lloyds Standards is often just sizzle. In your heart you know that. One of my concerns with the Mac is the standards used in its materials and construction. Since it will mostly be used parked near your Coronado, it must have a solid enough deck to install thru-deck A/C and room in the cockpit or transom for the genset. But it won't go to blue water so the Lloyds Standards are not an issue. Gunkholing, slow cruising and leisurely sailing are the Macs suite of capabilities in my eyes, and owners seem pretty happy doing those things with them., Lloyds or no Lloyds. --Vic |
Standards
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it. One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working. That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very simple. Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26... Wilbur Hubbard Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any means of measuring it. Your understanding is vague and speculative. Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality. Nor will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards let alone the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan. If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for standards, quality programs and control. |
Standards
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"krj" wrote in message ... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad! Wilbur Hubbard Wilber, I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being. You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her? Wilbur Hubbard Swan 68? You really are delusional. It's a musturd yellow Coronado that was in Buttonwood or Black Water Sound a couple of years ago |
Standards
wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... First one has to define exactly what is quality. How do we measure it. One measures it by accepted practices that have a history of working. That's what Lloyds standards in boatbuilding are all about. Tried and true. Lloyds standards mean a quality boat. Building a boat to no accepted measure of standards gets you a very inexpensive boat but you are trading safety and seaworthiness for a cheap price. If you don't have any reasonable standards yourself this will be acceptable to you but if you have high standards it will to entirely unacceptable. It's really very simple. Oh, speaking of standards, it's standard practice to reply to a post at the bottom, not the top. See, one little clue and I know you have low standards. You probably sail a MacGregor 26... Wilbur Hubbard Your definition of Quality is not explicit and you do not have any means of measuring it. Your understanding is vague and speculative. Therefore I can only conclude that you do not know what is quality. Nor will you be able to understand the meaning of building standards let alone the Mil Specs, history dockets and inspection and test plan. If you were to build a sailboat how much budget will you allocate for standards, quality programs and control. I fail to see your logic. I don't have to know the ins and outs of quality myself as I don't build boats myself. All I have to know is there exists certain boat building quality standards among which are Lloyds and ABS. These organizations certify boat building according to their established tried-and-true building methods and inspect for compliance as the boat is being built. We're talking yachts here not military ships so military specs. and irrelevant. As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap, fly-by-night outfit like MacGregor who just builds to the "sell a boat cheaper than anybody else can" standards. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
"krj" wrote in message .. . Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "krj" wrote in message ... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Don White" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message ... There are high standards and there are low standards. For, example a sailboat built to ABYS standards is poorly built compared to a sailboat built to Lloyds standards. And a boat that's not built to any existing accepted standard is a very questionable proposition. Yet, today's yacht purchaser seems be unconcerned with boat building standards. They are more concerned with how many it sleeps or if the head is enclosed. You should ask yourself why. Why? I'll be more than happy to tell you why. Because people these days themselves have few or no standards. About 30% of the people in this country call themselves Democrats, i.e., no standards. About 10% of the people in this country are illiterate, i.e., no standards. But since most of that 10% are Democrats I suppose it's six of one and half-dozen of the other. About 90% of the people in this country watch excessive hours of television daily, i.e., no standards. Less than half the people in this country regularly attend church, i.e., no moral standards. These are but a few examples of a standard-less society. Now, what's this got to do with sailboats? Lots, believe me, lots! Take the MacGregor 26X and 26M. Neither boat is built to any accepted standard of quality at all. Yet, a standardless boat is the leading seller in that size range. Is that not convincing proof that people these days have no personal standards? Can you imagine anybody concerned with safety and proper boat construction actually paying good money for a boat that's built to no accepted boat building standards? It's incredible to think such a sad state of affairs has eventuated. Wilbur Hubbard Never heard of the 'throw away society'? Exactly fits the bill. Ask yourself why throw it away? Because it's a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap suited only for short-term use. Has MacGregor written all over it, doesn't it? It's like walking around with a sign plastered on your back which says, "I'm a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being." No pride in your things means no pride in yourself. Sad! Wilbur Hubbard Wilber, I've seen your boat You are a cheap, shoddy, **** poor pile of crap posing as a human being. You've seen my Swan 68? Where did you see her? Wilbur Hubbard Swan 68? You really are delusional. It's a musturd yellow Coronado that was in Buttonwood or Black Water Sound a couple of years ago Capt. Neal sails a yellow Coronado 27 by the name of "Cuts the Mustard" and that boat can be seen just about any place on the face of the planet that communicates with blue water, but what's that got to do with me, Wilbur Hubbard? Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:26:47 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: Thanks. That's a good link. It proves my point. It says: "For that same reason, American builders have been slow to encourage the use of classifications because buyers aren't familiar with them and, almost to a man, they all claim to build better boats than required by the societies. Whether that is true or not is just as debatable as whether a buyer would want a boat built to society standards. One well-known builder noted that it is impossible to build the high-speed motoryachts, now so popular, to classification because of the sacrifices necessary to keep the weight to a minimum. The societies, on the other hand, point out that they have been classing high-speed patrol craft and other speed-oriented vessels for many years, and suggest that the builder is probably cutting many corners in search of an extra knot or two." Cutting many corners in search for an extra knot or two? Sound familiar? Sounds like it describes a MacGregor 26. Maybe, but http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._61555439/pg_3 "Even though ABS's customer base is primarily big shipping, its rules on scantlings, the dimensions of a boat's structural members, are sometimes referenced by manufacturers of recreational vessels. Private mega-yachts are usually built to ABS rules, which are all but unheard of for the average pleasure boat." Neither the Mac or Coronado can be classified as a mega-yacht. Here's a link pointing to the ABS standards guidebooks. http://www.eagle.org/rules/intro.html If you'll tell me which book I need to verify standards for a boat such as a Mac 26 or a Coronado 27 I'll buy it and take it down to the boat builder to see if he is up to snuff. Without your help, I'll have to rely on the experience of people who actually own the boat. --Vic |
Standards
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message .. snipped. As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap, fly-by-night outfit You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow them and certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare the result with run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications. But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either during or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds specifications you have to take his word for it. If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you must specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but also under under Lloyds survey, inspection and test. That is what is going to cost serious money as the material suppliers will have to have this requirement passed down to them to ensure the materials comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor (N.B. not 'inspector'!) will have to visit the yard at certain defined stages of construction and sign her off so that work can proceed. Then after sea trials you will get final approval . Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not good. |
Standards
Edgar wrote:
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message .. snipped. As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap, fly-by-night outfit You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow them and certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare the result with run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications. But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either during or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds specifications you have to take his word for it. If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you must specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but also under under Lloyds survey, inspection and test. That is what is going to cost serious money as the material suppliers will have to have this requirement passed down to them to ensure the materials comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor (N.B. not 'inspector'!) will have to visit the yard at certain defined stages of construction and sign her off so that work can proceed. Then after sea trials you will get final approval . Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not good. I seem to recall that one of Edward Heath's yachts (Morning Cloud 3 perhaps?) was built to Lloyds 100+A1 standards. She broke up in a storm in the English Channel whilst on delivery from Kent to The Solent. Standards? Don't make me laugh! DNP |
Standards
"Edgar" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message .. snipped. As for budget requirements to build a boat to Lloyds specifications I believe the article posted above mentioned it might be up to 10% more for the inspection process alone. Of course, quality materials and proper scantlings necessarily add more to the cost than some cheap, fly-by-night outfit You are not quite correct here. Anybody can build to Lloyds specifications-they are available for anyone who wishes to follow them and certainly they will involve some extra cost if you compare the result with run-of-the-mill yacht builders specifications. But this does not involve getting Lloyds to inspect the boat either during or after building. If a builder says he is building to Lloyds specifications you have to take his word for it. An individual may build a vessel to Lloyd's standards but it will not be Lloyd's certified unless it's inpected by Lloyds in the processess of it's being built. Personally, I would not take the word of a builder. I would have to see the certificate of compliance or whatever it's called nowadays before I would trust it is built to Lloyd's standards. If you want a gold plated assurance that the boat complies then you must specify not only that she is built to Lloyds requirements but also under under Lloyds survey, inspection and test. Yes, that's the value of complying with Lloyds specs - getting the certificate. Going full zoot. . . That is what is going to cost serious money as the material suppliers will have to have this requirement passed down to them to ensure the materials comply. Then the Lloyds surveyor (N.B. not 'inspector'!) will have to visit the yard at certain defined stages of construction and sign her off so that work can proceed. Then after sea trials you will get final approval . Your chances of getting this done for any mass produced yacht are not good. It's good if the builder is willing to pay for it and the buyer is willing to pay for the quality. Probably even save the extra costs over a ten year period on reduced insurance premiums. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:37:38 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Vic Smith" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Wilbur, You are making the mistake od assuming that people carry their diligence or lack of in their profession to all aspects of their lives. As a general truth, they don't. Life and individual behaviour are not that consistent, not that black and white. Your simplistic arguement does not hold true. There are several examples of this. How many of us males who are known for our rational and intelligent decision making in our careers have married a pretty face only to learn later that "a pretty face is high maintenance"? How many successful parents when faced with wayward children initially refuse to believe the evidence yest it was apparent to others all along? How many of us with good financial acumen in investments and property make decisions to purchase something based upon other than "the best buy for your money"? People are not consistent, not by any means. regards Peter Owning a cut-corners boat demonstrates for the entire world to see that the owner is a cut-corners type of guy. If a lawyer is proud of his MacGregor 26 then that tells me he's a cut-corners person and not the person I want litigating an important case where cutting corners will most likely be disastrous. If my doctor owns and is proud of a Mac26 then what corners is he going to cut when he operates on me. Is he going to wash his hands thoroughly? Is he going to use autoclaved instruments? So, when I see any cut-corners kind of guy out in a Mac26 I have to ask myself what other corners is this guy going to cut. Does he even know the basic navigation rules? Does he know how to anchor? Does he have the proper safety equipment? After all he has already demonstrated that he has no standards because of his boat purchase. Isn't it likely his sloppiness and lack of standards permeates his entire life? I think so. That's why I don't want any Macgregor's anywhere near me. The good news is offshore where I am most of the time one rarely sees a Mac26 because even if Mac owners have low standards they still value their lives enough to stay within site of land. Wilbur Hubbard |
Standards
"Peter Hendra" wrote in message ... On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:37:38 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Vic Smith" wrote in message . .. On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 12:41:57 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: Wilbur, You are making the mistake od assuming that people carry their diligence or lack of in their profession to all aspects of their lives. As a general truth, they don't. Life and individual behaviour are not that consistent, not that black and white. Your simplistic arguement does not hold true. There are several examples of this. How many of us males who are known for our rational and intelligent decision making in our careers have married a pretty face only to learn later that "a pretty face is high maintenance"? How many successful parents when faced with wayward children initially refuse to believe the evidence yest it was apparent to others all along? How many of us with good financial acumen in investments and property make decisions to purchase something based upon other than "the best buy for your money"? People are not consistent, not by any means. True, but I'd rather associate with people with high standards who are inconsistent than people with low standards who are inconsistent. Make sense? Wilbur Hubbard |
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