Say, Larry
 

Larry,

I know the answer is somewhere in a search of this newsgroup but I'm feeling
lazy today. I've enjoyed your posts on batteries and would appreciate a
direct recommendation.

I'm probably going to be sailing off a mooring for much of the summer so
often won't even run the engine at all on day sails. I won't have any place
to plug the fat yellow cord into so a solar panel to keep my two AGM
batteries (Yeah, I know you don't like them but they work well for me.)
topped up is probably in order.

What would you buy for the simplest set up here in Maine? It will have to
just sit on a cockpit seat and be stowed while sailing. I'll want to wire it
to a dedicated plug so I can turn off the master switch when I leave the
boat.

Electrical loads are about as minimal as they get on a 32 foot boat, lights,
GPS, one radio, depthsounder, knotlog, 15 HP diesel. Bilge pumps never run.
I always run my batteries on "Both" (I know, but that's another discussion.
It works well for me.)

Come to think of it, I don't want any permanent connection between the
battery banks to complicate things when I am using my dual charger on shore
power with the master switch off so I probably need two separate solar
panels.

(Anyone else feel free with a recommendation as well.)

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

Yo Captain ,, I saw a setup on Ebay that the solar panel is in a suitcase.
When you want to use, you open the suitcase up, and it sets on deck [ as I
recall it was shown for an rv ], run a line to the batteries and let er
power em up.

Whether the panel is any good? Who knows. Seems like much of the solar
panels shown on Ebay are junk.

I'm not sure about regulator, switch, etc.


=============================
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Larry,

I know the answer is somewhere in a search of this newsgroup but I'm
feeling lazy today. I've enjoyed your posts on batteries and would
appreciate a direct recommendation.

I'm probably going to be sailing off a mooring for much of the summer so
often won't even run the engine at all on day sails. I won't have any
place to plug the fat yellow cord into so a solar panel to keep my two AGM
batteries (Yeah, I know you don't like them but they work well for me.)
topped up is probably in order.

What would you buy for the simplest set up here in Maine? It will have to
just sit on a cockpit seat and be stowed while sailing. I'll want to wire
it to a dedicated plug so I can turn off the master switch when I leave
the boat.

Electrical loads are about as minimal as they get on a 32 foot boat,
lights, GPS, one radio, depthsounder, knotlog, 15 HP diesel. Bilge pumps
never run. I always run my batteries on "Both" (I know, but that's another
discussion. It works well for me.)

Come to think of it, I don't want any permanent connection between the
battery banks to complicate things when I am using my dual charger on
shore power with the master switch off so I probably need two separate
solar panels.

(Anyone else feel free with a recommendation as well.)

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

Roger, I don't know if this thing is any good.. not much power at 13 watts..
but it is portable.. in a briefcase.
===========


Multi-Purpose 12V Briefcase Solar Generator 13 Watt Power Charger

This product is designed to supply power for outdoor 12V applications. You
will enjoy convenient electricity wherever you go. Your Mobile Power!!

** This auction is for a brand new "black" cover solar generator

Featu

a.. Compact designed, Powerful 13 Watt Solar Charger

b.. With flashing charge indicator to give a clear view that the generator
is working.
c.. With detachable connectors for different application.
d.. With adjustable support panel, help to maximize power output.
e.. With built-in diode to prevent reverse charging.
f.. Can charge a wide range of applications.

g.. Ideal for caravans, motorhomes, yacht, DC fridge, Laptop computer, GPS
System, etc.........
h.. With voltage adaptor, able to charge 3V, 6V, 9V, 12V electronic
appliances (Optional)
i.. With cigarette plug socket (Optional)


Specification:

a.. Use Amorphous silicon solar cells
b.. Power: 13 Watts maximum
c.. Working voltage: equal or greater than 14V
d.. Working current: equal or greater than 750mA
e.. Dimension: 20.07" x 14.76" x 1.57" (510mm x 375mm x 40mm)


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Larry,

I know the answer is somewhere in a search of this newsgroup but I'm
feeling lazy today. I've enjoyed your posts on batteries and would
appreciate a direct recommendation.

I'm probably going to be sailing off a mooring for much of the summer so
often won't even run the engine at all on day sails. I won't have any
place to plug the fat yellow cord into so a solar panel to keep my two AGM
batteries (Yeah, I know you don't like them but they work well for me.)
topped up is probably in order.

What would you buy for the simplest set up here in Maine? It will have to
just sit on a cockpit seat and be stowed while sailing. I'll want to wire
it to a dedicated plug so I can turn off the master switch when I leave
the boat.

Electrical loads are about as minimal as they get on a 32 foot boat,
lights, GPS, one radio, depthsounder, knotlog, 15 HP diesel. Bilge pumps
never run. I always run my batteries on "Both" (I know, but that's another
discussion. It works well for me.)

Come to think of it, I don't want any permanent connection between the
battery banks to complicate things when I am using my dual charger on
shore power with the master switch off so I probably need two separate
solar panels.

(Anyone else feel free with a recommendation as well.)

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

Come to think of it, I don't want any permanent connection between the
battery banks to complicate things when I am using my dual charger on
shore power with the master switch off so I probably need two separate
solar panels.



I'm not sure how many watts/sq meter you get in Main, Roger, but I'm sure
it's very low in comparison to SC. Let's analyze your loads:

Multiply 13.8V x the amp load of everything that will be running on the
boat....such as anchor light, 13.8V x 1.2A = 16.56W x 12 hours = 198.72
watt-hours each night. (Your spare anchor light bulb may say how many
watts it is, so just multiply that by 12 hours (or more as it gets dark
early in Maine and the sun comes up late).

Do this for every load you can think of. Add up all the Watt-Hours to
get a total. The current usage of the electronics is in the
specifications page of the manual. Do NOT rate them conservatively to
try to get the number down. We're going to ADD more to your answer to
get a relatively "worst case scenario" for our purpose.

Now, I found this Maine Solar House on:
http://www.solarhouse.com/index2.htm
Click on SOLAR DATA on the left panel to get what power they generated
with a whole roof of solar panels, 4,200 watts of them!

In July of 1998, this 4,200 watt, perfectly placed array generated 467KWH
of real power. Let's scale that down to two 80W panels of a perfectly-
placed, unobstructed boat. 80/4200 x 467 = about 8.9KWH in Coastal Maine
in July, about the hottest month when the sun is most North it gets.

Your boat solar cells are never going to make 8.9 KWH for a lot of
reasons.....
1 - The boat moves around on the hook every 6 hours. If we tilt the
panels for best exposure, half the day they're going to be pointed away
from the sun. If we lay them flat, that takes care of that, but the sun
is at an obtuse, inefficient angle, which reduces cell output
accordingly.
2 - The damned rigging shades the panels. Panel output drops like a rock
if anything makes a shadow across the panels. Everything on a sailboat
makes a shadow across the panels at SOME time during a day.

There are many other reasons we can probably identify, including keeping
the salt off the panels which reduces the solar radiation making it
through the glass or plastic cover....

Ok, so it's not going to be easy to figure out how much power you're
going to get from two 80W panels, in reality, but let's work on 5 KWH per
MONTH...not per day. This is 166 watt-hours per day from two 80W panels
on a sailboat. Being most generous, let's say 200 WH per day.

Do you think the anchor light will use it all? The house looks like it's
on a hill, even though it's close to the coast. His air is THINNER than
yours, and he has a lot LESS fog/haze/etc. on his panel roof beast.

So, what happens? The panels don't produce enough power and the
batteries quickly lose the battle going dead, REALLY dead.

I hope this has given you some kind of idea who inefficient solar power
on a sailboat really is...especially that far North. Sure glad I found
that solar house on the Maine Coast. Look how STEEP the panels are set
trying to get perpendicular to those solar rays. Snow won't be much of a
problem...

An 80 watt panel is about 22" x 48" on:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/module-
folder/bp/bp380U.html
When you go to the boat, take a 2x4' sheet of plywood you can't bend with
you. Make believe it's 1-2" thick. Try to find TWO places for TWO
panels on a 32' boat. If you stow the panels up for sailing, you make NO
POWER for the electronics and house batteries underway...making the watt-
hour deficiency even worse.

At noon on their best day, each panel makes a little less than 5A of
power for the few hours in the middle of the day. Bubba would tell you,
"Thait ain't 'nuf, Bo!" Plan on running the engine a few hours to
recharge. Remember we must recharge SLOWLY, not in 10 minutes at
500A....at least not YET given our current lead-acid batteries.

Two panels are $1000, good for 20 years.

All is not lost, however. Maine is WINDY! WIND is our FRIEND, in more
ways than one. Let's compa
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/w...irxmarine.html
I'm not endorsing ANY wind generator product. AirX was the first marine
unit Google found, and is representative of their capabilities.

In a 28 mph breeze, an AirX makes 400 watts of DC. Look at:
http://www.emarineinc.com/products/w...es/airxoutput1
..jpg
Everytime the wind is 13 mph, the AirX puts out as much power as the
solar panel does pointing at the sun, at noon, on its best day....

Question....Are there more windy days on the Maine coast than totally
sunny days...at anchor, swinging in the tide?

The wind genny makes power whichever way the wind is blowing. It cares
less where the boat is pointing or which way the tide is running. It
simply spins around into the wind at an optimal angle for maximum power
generation with NO INPUT ON YOUR PART, which I find very important.
Remember when the solar beasts were stored getting underway? The wind
genny output GOES WAY UP when you add APPARENT WIND to it! Sailboats and
Wind gennys LOVE apparent wind...(c; When we're whipping along with all
the lights and electronic gadgets buzzing away, leaned over on the
handrail, EVEN AT MIDNIGHT, the wind genny sees an apparent wind of 25
mph! Hell, according to this graph, we may have to turn on more than the
running lights! We're making 25A x 14V = 350 watts...AT MIDNIGHT!

I hope you can see the practicality of wind power on your wind-powered
boat over this solar nonsense with the dead batteries and flashlights.
Running the fore-aft-mast running lights all night...that solar panel,
even if you permanently mounted it, is USELESS on the midwatch when the
batteries are going flat. The wind gennys now have special loading
circuits on them so when the batteries get up to full charge, and they
will, the genny's own computer will load the genny to prevent overspeed
and turn excess power into heat.....well, at least until we get BIGGER
house batteries to store it all...(c;

Wind genny is half what two measily solar panels cost. Are you going to
own this boat for 20 years to worry about how long the wind genny will
last? I thought not.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I always run my batteries on "Both" (I know, but that's another
discussion. It works well for me.)


I always run Lionheart's house battery switch on BOTH, but have a separate
crossover switch for the starting battery, which is ALWAYS separate.
There's no way to crank Lionheart's Perkins 4-108 by hand...Hell, you can
hardly get anywhere near the front of the motor. It's buried!

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in news:9FiLh.4296$742.1625
@trndny07:

Multi-Purpose 12V Briefcase Solar Generator 13 Watt Power Charger



13W divided by 12V = a hair over 1A. What are you gonna run with that??

It'll charge cellphone and Ipod batteries....(c;

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:01:41 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

Roger, I don't know if this thing is any good.. not much power at 13 watts..
but it is portable.. in a briefcase.
===========

Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/yr3ypv

At $19 it looks like a good value, can't speak to quality. Since it
comes with a cigarette lighter type power adapter, one way to install
it would be to install 2 lighter type outlets in you cockpit area, 1
to each battery, through a small inline fuse.

That particular unit is only 2 watts but if you do an EBAY search on
"12v solar" you will find lots of other possibilities.

Say, Larry
 

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 01:32:20 +0000, Larry wrote:

I'm not sure how many watts/sq meter you get in Main, Roger, but I'm sure
it's very low in comparison to SC. Let's analyze your loads:

All he's trying to do is keep his batteries topped off.

That doesn't take much power if the batteries are switched off and in
good condition.

Say, Larry
 

I knew that there is no way solar would keep up with my cruising loads.
Cruising in Maine, where the wind usually doesn't come up unitl noon,
usually involves enough motoring to keep the batteries charged. It's the
periods when we're not cruising and just daysailing that I'm concerned
about.

I won't be running the anchor light on the mooring and I just bought one of
the new low draw LED units anyway. My old one was a combination bow/mast
light with two bulbs and was a real hog but it was the only one I could get
when I found that the original was toast the day before the mast was to go
up. The only daysailing draw will be the GPS, radio which I seldom
transmit on (for which I have been already soundly berated on this group),
instruments, and a bit of fresh water pumping.

I also don't expect to keep up entirely with the loads. It's more a matter
of balancing the cost of a modest solar rig against the extension of battery
life and capacity. Maybe just buying new batteries every 2 - 3 years makes
more sense. I get my AGM's cheap enough from a non-marine source that a set
every year would just be a blip in the cost of boat ownership.

Wind is the way to go but location and foundation support are an issue on my
boat.

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense for
this application.

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

The AGM do a good job of holding their charge so this should be much
of a problem. I have two AGM starting batteries and I discovered last
year that they were not getting combined, so one ran most of the
summer without ever getting charged. And the loads from the GPS and
VHF are (probably) pretty small, so in fact you would recover a full
day's use in 10 or 20 minutes of running the engine.

However, it would be prudent to have a panel to make sure the pump
will continue to run, and the engine can be started. There are nice
flexible panels that are convenient - I used one for a few seasons.
They can be toss on the deck, the seat or draped over the boom. You
just want to try to avoid shading. If there's a good spot for a solid
panel, that would put out 2-3 times the power for the price, but the
flexi is more convenient.

The only problem is that they are a bit pricey - the smaller ones that
list around $100 don't have much output. However, it you look on eBay
you might find the same panel that West sells for $200 for half the
price. A 10 Watt panel should do a reasonable job of keeping the
batteries topped off while you're not there.



* Roger Long wrote, On 3/19/2007 6:03 AM:
I knew that there is no way solar would keep up with my cruising loads.
Cruising in Maine, where the wind usually doesn't come up unitl noon,
usually involves enough motoring to keep the batteries charged. It's the
periods when we're not cruising and just daysailing that I'm concerned
about.

I won't be running the anchor light on the mooring and I just bought one of
the new low draw LED units anyway. My old one was a combination bow/mast
light with two bulbs and was a real hog but it was the only one I could get
when I found that the original was toast the day before the mast was to go
up. The only daysailing draw will be the GPS, radio which I seldom
transmit on (for which I have been already soundly berated on this group),
instruments, and a bit of fresh water pumping.

I also don't expect to keep up entirely with the loads. It's more a matter
of balancing the cost of a modest solar rig against the extension of battery
life and capacity. Maybe just buying new batteries every 2 - 3 years makes
more sense. I get my AGM's cheap enough from a non-marine source that a set
every year would just be a blip in the cost of boat ownership.

Wind is the way to go but location and foundation support are an issue on my
boat.

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense for
this application.

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

Roger ,, go to the Pearson Vanguard Group on Yahoo Groups.

There is a sailor/Captain over there, named David Heilman, who uses solar.
He has two high output solar panels.
And he really burns up the juice. He has stereo, tv, vcr, you name it and
with his solar setup.. power to burn.

For the good solar panels, it is costly. The following is from an email
David sent me back in the fall.



"We had 1 85watt panel on "On Location" I got it on clearance from
Alternative engery sources on the web. The panel cost $695 which was a $150
savings. I am going to put two 130 watt panels on our Easterly 38 and those
panels are coming from Mr Solar and will cost $900 each and the two
controllers will bring the total cost to about $2,000. In my humble opinion
good solar panels and controllers will run around $1,000 ea, keeping in mind
we are on a ball, are not bashfull about running electronics, only use the
engine to get out and back and enjoy time on the boat even if we do not
sail. Not quite liveaboards yet but close."

Here is another email from Captain Heilman.

"Not sure how much help I can be but will try. I did a lot of research 3
years ago when we went onto the ball. Got real confused with all the
formulas also. What I did find was this, the only panels that are worth a
damm are the rigid expensive ones, the thin flexablie ones that are easy to
mount are not worth the trouble, you need at least 40 watts for each 12 volt
deep cycle battery. On the Vanguard we had two house batteries so I bought
one 85watt panel. On the Easterly I have installed four house batteries and
will have two 130 watt panels. A good panel, that means expensive, will
generate power on a slightly overcast day, you must have a charge controller
both to prevent overcharging of the batteries and to stop the panel from
drawing power back out of the batteries at night. Do not cheap out here
either. Mount the panels as high as practical and watch for things that will
cast a shadow on them. Like a flag from the backstay. This may seem like a
minor thing but keep them clean!

We used this formula for three years on our mooring, and even if we spent
several days on the boat without using the iron genny never ran out of
power.

Hope this helps.

Dave"

================================================== =========================================

If you are a reader of DIY magazine, Captain Heilman's Vanguard was featured
in one issue as David and his wife restored her. He has since sold her and
moved to a bigger boat.

================================================== =========================================




"Roger Long" wrote in message news:
I knew that there is no way solar would keep up with my cruising loads.
Cruising in Maine, where the wind usually doesn't come up unitl noon,
usually involves enough motoring to keep the batteries charged. It's the
periods when we're not cruising and just daysailing that I'm concerned
about.

I won't be running the anchor light on the mooring and I just bought one
of the new low draw LED units anyway. My old one was a combination
bow/mast light with two bulbs and was a real hog but it was the only one I
could get when I found that the original was toast the day before the mast
was to go up. The only daysailing draw will be the GPS, radio which I
seldom transmit on (for which I have been already soundly berated on this
group), instruments, and a bit of fresh water pumping.

I also don't expect to keep up entirely with the loads. It's more a
matter of balancing the cost of a modest solar rig against the extension
of battery life and capacity. Maybe just buying new batteries every 2 -
3 years makes more sense. I get my AGM's cheap enough from a non-marine
source that a set every year would just be a blip in the cost of boat
ownership.

Wind is the way to go but location and foundation support are an issue on
my boat.

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense for
this application.

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

Larry,, you sound like a "wind power" guy.

The problem with wind power is size, noise, vibration.

I'm certainly no expert; but doesn't it take a large blade to produce any
amount of power? And that large blade is spinning
and that means noise, and vibration.

On a small sailboat ??

There is one product I saw somewhere .. a portable wind power unit. It gets
hung in the triangle of the foredeck.

It is attached to the forestay, mast, etc. I think it swings into the wind.
It isn't very large though and that means less power; right?

Post some into on wind power if you have a moment.. I am interested.

Thanks,

=========
"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped
up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:H_yLh.7193$zx.128@trndny05:

Larry,, you sound like a "wind power" guy.

The problem with wind power is size, noise, vibration.

I'm certainly no expert; but doesn't it take a large blade to produce
any amount of power? And that large blade is spinning
and that means noise, and vibration.



Lots of boats have wind power like the AirX unit I pointed you to the
webpage of. They usually sit aft on a stick, but very few try to
vibration isolate the stick from the hull, which I think can be easily
done both at the top and the bottom.

These marine genny's, unlike their shoreside brothers, have quite small
blades, turn quite fast as wind power goes, and don't generate much noise
at all....unless you're in a boat whos wind genny has bad bearings, of
course.

They're nicely balanced to minimize vibration and product returns by
irate boaters!

Of course, some day when this sailing "tradition" means less, we'll
probably be making a POWER boat out of some super genny like these guys
build in their mountainside shops:
http://www.otherpower.com/
I'd like to see one of these high-powered, 3-phase, PM rotored beasts
mounted to the aft handrail of a sailboat, trailing a ball-joint-mounted
shaft behind a cruising boat offshore with a properly-pitched screw
driving it, not some sailboat prop being pulled along the wrong way like
our shaft alternator on Lionheart.

These alternators are VERY slow RPM on a large wooden blade. No
expensive gearing, no exotic electronics/field coils/etc. I'd want the
marine dragging unit to have a variable space between the coils making
the load and the magnets turning against them so YOU could vary the shaft
loading for maximum efficiency.

What would you do with a kilowatt of constant electricity, day or night,
dragging its prop through the water? HOT SHOWERS FOR EVERYONE!

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

The fellow who builds the Cape Horn wind vanes has a great DVD of his
circumnavigation. He had a stern pulpit mounted alternator with a prop
trailing on a line. It appears to have done a good job of supplying his
electrical needs since the boat didn't have an engine. This was in the
early 80's so it was probably just an automotive alternator.

A shark ate the trailing turbine and, after doing without power for a while,
he fabricated a new one from stuff he found on board. The improvised rotor
is beautiful and a testimony to what human ingeniuity can do with minimal
materials and tools.

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

Roger ,, the water generator are sold on the net. I talked to a fellow
sailor about one. He came across the Atlantic on a very large
sailing yacht and the water generator produced lots of power. He said they
would watch a movie every night while off watch.

He did tell me that the pull on a small boat would be a negative. And, he
said the water generator would not work near ports due to
lobster pots, etc.

Also,, he mentioned that fish are attracted to the generator and it can be
expensive when the thing gets eaten.

Tally ho.

=========
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
The fellow who builds the Cape Horn wind vanes has a great DVD of his
circumnavigation. He had a stern pulpit mounted alternator with a prop
trailing on a line. It appears to have done a good job of supplying his
electrical needs since the boat didn't have an engine. This was in the
early 80's so it was probably just an automotive alternator.

A shark ate the trailing turbine and, after doing without power for a
while, he fabricated a new one from stuff he found on board. The
improvised rotor is beautiful and a testimony to what human ingeniuity can
do with minimal materials and tools.

--
Roger Long

Say, Larry
 

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:11:52 +0000, Larry wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in
:

I'd still like to know if there is a panel that you think makes sense
for this application.



All the panels are pretty much the same...inefficient, take lots of deck
space to produce any power making them always in the way, and very hard to
place so they get unobstructed sunshine as the boat swings around, either
underway or on the hook. It might keep an unloaded battery bank topped up,
but is a poor choice for powering even the small loads as it is so
intermittent....my point.


It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.

I have a fridge and freezer running permanently (except in the depths
of winter when I turn off the freezer) and usually find that I can sit
on the anchor somewhere for several days before I have to run the
engine.

What I do find is that all the fancy LEDs and coloured lights with
which all the panels and other electrical gizmos are fitted can chew
up 1.5 amps without anything actually being turned on.

Oh - and I have an electric toilet and Electrosan which can hit the
batteries with a fair wallop when I have people on board.



Eric Stevens

Say, Larry
 

Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 04:57:17 +0000, Larry wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

I'm aware of all that. I only mentioned the 80 W to give people an
indication of the size of the panels.

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I doubt if I make that much in the depths of winter but its surprising
how much I can get when its just ordinarily cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Aaaaah - the noise - the noise. :-(



Eric Stevens

Say, Larry
 

Larry ,, I did some research on the net about the wind generators. Most
posting, stories I read were like the following which is reposted without
permission or attribute ... as in I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS .. TAKE THAT
JEFF.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why I would not put another wind generator on a boat:

Specifically, the Southwest Power Air Power Wind Turbine, AIR-X or
AIR-404/3. Noise: Everyone complains about the noise, at anchorages, crew
complains underway, they make a moaning noise that is very disturbing
especially if you are trying to sleep in a cabin under the generator. Power
Generation: They produce amazingly little power. They require at least
15 -25 knots of apparent wind to produce any meaningful power. They don't
produce power at anchorages because most anchorages by their nature are in
low-wind areas, they don't produce power going downwind because the apparent
wind is often low. They don't produce power at the dock because you will [?]
of the noise. They only produce power going up wind in a pretty good wind.
Go slow: The wind generator and mast provide a pretty good wind profile and
hence wind resistance.

Southwest Power's air turbines are not well built for the salt water marine
environment and require significant maintenance. The Aluminum components
like the generator body and mast tubes are powder-coated aluminum. After a
few years the coating comes off in big potato-chip-like flakes. I sent mine
back once and have had to paint it twice in five years. I put the mast tubes
in heat-shrunk tubes which has worked well and they stay white. The
generator body has to be painted about every year. The Stainless Steel (SS)
hardware that Southwest uses is 304 SS not nearly as good as 316 SS which
means that it is prone to rust and leave streaks on the deck and topside. I
have removed these and bathed the hardware in mild solution of Oxalic acid
which removes the rust stains and the rust from the hardware; this must be
done two or three times per year.

In summary don't put a wind generator on your boat, and not a Southwest Air
Power turbine. Based on my experience the more solar cells the better.


[It seems as if they have there drawback for sure. The noise was the
biggest complaint. The other item I kept reading about them was that they
needed lots of wind to make power. When in an anchorage, you don't want
lots of wind .. that is why it is an anchorage. ]
================================================== ===============================


This is from an ad I saw on the net .. on solar ... ad, Jeff. No author as
far as I can tell.. Got it Jeff.

Solar panels provide a silent dependable way to supply electricity anywhere,
particularly in places where utility power is not available. Whether its a
mountaintop cabin, a cruising sailboat, a roving RV, or the family home,
there is a solar electric system to meet your needs.

Solar power allows you to live on beautiful rural land without foregoing all
the conveniences of the city, and without expensive utility line extensions
or noisy generators. Thousands of photovoltaic powered homes exist
throughout the country.

Sailboat cruising time can be extended with a few solar modules, since
precious fuel does not need to be used for charging batteries to power the
bilgepump, communications equipment, lights, or refrigerator. Dockside,
solar panels keeps the batteries alive and the bilge pump running without
power hookups.

Recreational vehicles can park anywhere with full use of lights and
appliances without being disturbed by the sound or smell of a generator.
Even if your RV spends a few weeks between trips in a storage lot, solar
panels will keep the battery charged and ready to go when you are ready to
go.

How do they work? To be brief, energy from the sun's light strikes the
solar panels crystals knocking some electrons loose and creating
electricity. Each solar cell in a panel creates a potential of about .45
volts. To create a voltage sufficient to charge a 12 volt battery, 34 to
36 cells are connected in series to produce 15 to 17 volts. The current a
panel is capable of producing is porportional to the area of each cell.
Larger cells produce more electricity: 6" cells = 7.1 amps, 5" cells = 5
amps, 4" cells = 3.1 amps.

How much output can I expect from a solar panel? We use a basic design
rule that a solar panel will contributer about 30% to 35% of its wattage in
amphours each day if the panel is directed toward the sun. This means that
an 80 watt solar panel can be expected to produce approximately 24 to 28
amphours per day when aimed at the sun.

What type panel is best? There are three main types of solar panels:
Monocrystalline (Siemens), Polycrystalline (Kyocera, Solarex, PowerValue),
and Thin Film or amorphous (Uni-Solar). Monocrystalline panels have
uniform dark gray cells and have the highest output per cell area and tend
to be the most expensive. Polycrystalline cells look somewhat like
shattered glass and tend to be less expensive and only slightly less
efficient per cell area. These cells are usually square and result in a
slightly smaller solar panel than solar panels constructed using the more
efficient monocrystalline which tend to be rounder. Monocrystalline and
polycrysalline solar panels are rigid and have a glass cover. Thin Film
type panels are made by depositing the active silicon on either a stainles
plate or a flexible backing. Thin film type panels are about half as
efficient per cell area but are consided unbreakable and shadow protected.

Do solar panels require regulation? As a general rule, very small solar
panels that put out 5 watts or less can get by without a regulator but a
regulator should be used on all solar panels. The self-regulating panels
produce less voltage and theoretically will not overcharge your batteries.
We would rather use higher voltage solar panels and use a regulator which is
quite inexpensive to buy and it can save your batteries.


Here is something on solar.. I think the author is listed .. also from the
net.

From James Forsyth on SailNet liveaboard-list: In reasonably sunny climates,
you can figure solar panels will produce AH roughly equal to 1/3 their rated
watts without messing with them. E.g. a 45 watt panel should be expected to
produce about 15 AH per day. You can increase that to about half if you fuss
with them to keep them properly oriented, so you might get 22 or 23 AH from
a 45 watt panel - but that's under ideal conditions. That's a useful amount
of electricity, but not enough to run a boat, even with two or three panels.

Wind generators vary widely in both output and noise. The small ones,
such as Ampair 100's and the Fourwinds three, are virtually silent, but
their output is pretty small too. We looked at a lot of different models,
read a lot of reviews, and finally settled on a Fourwinds Two. The output
still varies with windspeed, but it comes pretty close to the advertised
values. It's quiet, but not silent. Most of the time underway the wind
generator is quieter than the usual wind and water noise. In winds of under
20 knots, we actually have to look at it to be sure it's running. You can
hear it at anchor, but we don't find it obnoxious. My suggestion is to find
people in your area who have different brands, then go stand by their boats,
or dinghy next to them, and listen. Also, put your hand on their hull or toe
rail to check for vibration. We're quite satisfied with ours. If you're
considering a Marine Aire, talk to people on boats near one ...

With the wind generator and one solar panel we can supply most to all
of our needs if it's sunny, and if the relative wind stays at 10 knots or
more, and we're careful. We have a house bank of about 400 AH, and a 100 amp
Powerline alternator with a Balmar 612 regulator run from our main engine.
We keep our boat on a mooring in the Chesapeake, and find we never have to
run the engine solely to charge the batteries.

We also have a conversion kit to use the generator portion of the Four
Winds as a water-powered generator when we're offshore. The wind generator
doesn't work all that well going downwind, when relative wind is light. Used
as a water-powered generator, it provides massive amounts of power. I
believe the Ampair has a similar set up, and it too should provide lots of
power offshore.



So.. what to do... it seems as if a combo is the answer. But that is
expensive for a coastal cruiser.

I have decided that the wind unit is out. Too much for too little. And my
boat is too small.

The solar panel will only work between 10am and 3pm. In bright sunlight.
The remainder of the time, it takes up space. does
nothing.

Then,, it hit me. A solar panel that can be put up like a sail .. use it
when the conditions are right. A moveable, temporay solar panel. Not
fixed. One I can store, just like I would an anchor.

If I find one in the 45-55 watt range .. and I get 1/3 of the watts in amp
hours per day.. would be something like 15 amp hours per day.

Right?

Now ,, looking at Casey's book .. that is Don Casey for Jeff.

Casey give a daily amp-hour consumption of about 15 amp hours for cabin
lights [ the at anchor ligts in the cabin, etc ] and the anchor light
together.

That isn't bad.

So,, my plan or thought is to get a solar panel but not attach it. Move it
around from place to place so it gets the sun. And,, only use it when it is
worthwhile. When the sun is shining.

Now the question .. where to store it? What else to use it for? The size
of the panel? About 25" by 25" for a 50 watt Kyocera panel.

That is a little over 2' x 2'.

If I sew a piece of Sunbrella up to make a cover, and have the panel in some
type of something that will allow me to take it out and set it up to get the
sunlight ..

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?








"Larry" wrote in message
...
Eric Stevens wrote in
:

It all depends. I have a 45' power boat (a 60 year old nine knotter)
with two 80 watt panels on the cabin roof. They are tied together
through a common regulator and keep my 220 amp.hour house batteries
charged. The house batteries in turn are coupled via a Heart Interface
echo charger to the starting battery to keep it topped up also.


Love the boat. Thanks for keeping her afloat. Most powerboaters are in
WAY too much of a hurry to "get there" for me...(c;

But, alas, 160 watts only happens in direct, bright sunshine and, at 14V
is only 11A at peak output, which, if the thing can be kept pointing at
the sun with nothing shadowing it, the 11A peak is at the top of a daily
bell curve, which starts around 9-10 AM and dies off quickly after 3PM,
at best. Boat environment swinging around on a hook is anywhere near "at
best".

You probably make 30 AH/day on sunny days...nothing if it's cloudy.

I'm afraid I'm STILL the advocate for a wind generator in coastal
climates....one that makes serious power 24 hours a day if the wind is
up. On a power boat, of course, even a slow one, you'll want to stow it
with the engine running the alternator(s).

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

I'm glad that you decided to take my advice. If you continue, you
might turn into a respectable netizen, and earn the respect of your
fellow group members.

As for the issue at hand:
Solar panels are better than wind for day by day power. A good wind
system costs about $1500, and that buys a lot of panels. Output can
be greatly improved by adjusting the panels to point toward the sun,
and by avoiding shading, so anything that can facilitate that will be
worth the effort. My three panels are fixed on the hardtop, and often
shaded by the boom, so all I can do is move the boom from side to
side. Were I to add panels, they would go on the davits where I could
tilt them as a appropriate.

The reason to have wind generation in addition to solar is that on
those days when there is little Sun, there is often a breeze. Its
frustrating to be hanging out below on a rainy day, using more power
with the TV and computer going, but generating nothing. The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


* NE Sailboat wrote, On 3/22/2007 10:21 AM:
Larry ,, I did some research on the net about the wind generators. Most
posting, stories I read were like the following which is reposted without
permission or attribute ... as in I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE THIS .. TAKE THAT
JEFF.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why I would not put another wind generator on a boat:

Specifically, the Southwest Power Air Power Wind Turbine, AIR-X or
AIR-404/3. Noise: Everyone complains about the noise, at anchorages, crew
complains underway, they make a moaning noise that is very disturbing
especially if you are trying to sleep in a cabin under the generator. Power
Generation: They produce amazingly little power. They require at least
15 -25 knots of apparent wind to produce any meaningful power. They don't
produce power at anchorages because most anchorages by their nature are in
low-wind areas, they don't produce power going downwind because the apparent
wind is often low. They don't produce power at the dock because you will [?]
of the noise. They only produce power going up wind in a pretty good wind.
Go slow: The wind generator and mast provide a pretty good wind profile and
hence wind resistance.

Southwest Power's air turbines are not well built for the salt water marine
environment and require significant maintenance. The Aluminum components
like the generator body and mast tubes are powder-coated aluminum. After a
few years the coating comes off in big potato-chip-like flakes. I sent mine
back once and have had to paint it twice in five years. I put the mast tubes
in heat-shrunk tubes which has worked well and they stay white. The
generator body has to be painted about every year. The Stainless Steel (SS)
hardware that Southwest uses is 304 SS not nearly as good as 316 SS which
means that it is prone to rust and leave streaks on the deck and topside. I
have removed these and bathed the hardware in mild solution of Oxalic acid
which removes the rust stains and the rust from the hardware; this must be
done two or three times per year.

In summary don't put a wind generator on your boat, and not a Southwest Air
Power turbine. Based on my experience the more solar cells the better.


[It seems as if they have there drawback for sure. The noise was the
biggest complaint. The other item I kept reading about them was that they
needed lots of wind to make power. When in an anchorage, you don't want
lots of wind .. that is why it is an anchorage. ]
================================================== ===============================


This is from an ad I saw on the net .. on solar ... ad, Jeff. No author as
far as I can tell.. Got it Jeff.

Solar panels provide a silent dependable way to supply electricity anywhere,
particularly in places where utility power is not available. Whether its a
mountaintop cabin, a cruising sailboat, a roving RV, or the family home,
there is a solar electric system to meet your needs.

Solar power allows you to live on beautiful rural land without foregoing all
the conveniences of the city, and without expensive utility line extensions
or noisy generators. Thousands of photovoltaic powered homes exist
throughout the country.

Sailboat cruising time can be extended with a few solar modules, since
precious fuel does not need to be used for charging batteries to power the
bilgepump, communications equipment, lights, or refrigerator. Dockside,
solar panels keeps the batteries alive and the bilge pump running without
power hookups.

Recreational vehicles can park anywhere with full use of lights and
appliances without being disturbed by the sound or smell of a generator.
Even if your RV spends a few weeks between trips in a storage lot, solar
panels will keep the battery charged and ready to go when you are ready to
go.

How do they work? To be brief, energy from the sun's light strikes the
solar panels crystals knocking some electrons loose and creating
electricity. Each solar cell in a panel creates a potential of about .45
volts. To create a voltage sufficient to charge a 12 volt battery, 34 to
36 cells are connected in series to produce 15 to 17 volts. The current a
panel is capable of producing is porportional to the area of each cell.
Larger cells produce more electricity: 6" cells = 7.1 amps, 5" cells = 5
amps, 4" cells = 3.1 amps.

How much output can I expect from a solar panel? We use a basic design
rule that a solar panel will contributer about 30% to 35% of its wattage in
amphours each day if the panel is directed toward the sun. This means that
an 80 watt solar panel can be expected to produce approximately 24 to 28
amphours per day when aimed at the sun.

What type panel is best? There are three main types of solar panels:
Monocrystalline (Siemens), Polycrystalline (Kyocera, Solarex, PowerValue),
and Thin Film or amorphous (Uni-Solar). Monocrystalline panels have
uniform dark gray cells and have the highest output per cell area and tend
to be the most expensive. Polycrystalline cells look somewhat like
shattered glass and tend to be less expensive and only slightly less
efficient per cell area. These cells are usually square and result in a
slightly smaller solar panel than solar panels constructed using the more
efficient monocrystalline which tend to be rounder. Monocrystalline and
polycrysalline solar panels are rigid and have a glass cover. Thin Film
type panels are made by depositing the active silicon on either a stainles
plate or a flexible backing. Thin film type panels are about half as
efficient per cell area but are consided unbreakable and shadow protected.

Do solar panels require regulation? As a general rule, very small solar
panels that put out 5 watts or less can get by without a regulator but a
regulator should be used on all solar panels. The self-regulating panels
produce less voltage and theoretically will not overcharge your batteries.
We would rather use higher voltage solar panels and use a regulator which is
quite inexpensive to buy and it can save your batteries.


Here is something on solar.. I think the author is listed .. also from the
net.

From James Forsyth on SailNet liveaboard-list: In reasonably sunny climates,
you can figure solar panels will produce AH roughly equal to 1/3 their rated
watts without messing with them. E.g. a 45 watt panel should be expected to
produce about 15 AH per day. You can increase that to about half if you fuss
with them to keep them properly oriented, so you might get 22 or 23 AH from
a 45 watt panel - but that's under ideal conditions. That's a useful amount
of electricity, but not enough to run a boat, even with two or three panels.

Wind generators vary widely in both output and noise. The small ones,
such as Ampair 100's and the Fourwinds three, are virtually silent, but
their output is pretty small too. We looked at a lot of different models,
read a lot of reviews, and finally settled on a Fourwinds Two. The output
still varies with windspeed, but it comes pretty close to the advertised
values. It's quiet, but not silent. Most of the time underway the wind
generator is quieter than the usual wind and water noise. In winds of under
20 knots, we actually have to look at it to be sure it's running. You can
hear it at anchor, but we don't find it obnoxious. My suggestion is to find
people in your area who have different brands, then go stand by their boats,
or dinghy next to them, and listen. Also, put your hand on their hull or toe
rail to check for vibration. We're quite satisfied with ours. If you're
considering a Marine Aire, talk to people on boats near one ...

With the wind generator and one solar panel we can supply most to all
of our needs if it's sunny, and if the relative wind stays at 10 knots or
more, and we're careful. We have a house bank of about 400 AH, and a 100 amp
Powerline alternator with a Balmar 612 regulator run from our main engine.
We keep our boat on a mooring in the Chesapeake, and find we never have to
run the engine solely to charge the batteries.

We also have a conversion kit to use the generator portion of the Four
Winds as a water-powered generator when we're offshore. The wind generator
doesn't work all that well going downwind, when relative wind is light. Used
as a water-powered generator, it provides massive amounts of power. I
believe the Ampair has a similar set up, and it too should provide lots of
power offshore.



So.. what to do... it seems as if a combo is the answer. But that is
expensive for a coastal cruiser.

I have decided that the wind unit is out. Too much for too little. And my
boat is too small.

The solar panel will only work between 10am and 3pm. In bright sunlight.
The remainder of the time, it takes up space. does
nothing.

Then,, it hit me. A solar panel that can be put up like a sail .. use it
when the conditions are right. A moveable, temporay solar panel. Not
fixed. One I can store, just like I would an anchor.

If I find one in the 45-55 watt range .. and I get 1/3 of the watts in amp
hours per day.. would be something like 15 amp hours per day.

Right?

Now ,, looking at Casey's book .. that is Don Casey for Jeff.

Casey give a daily amp-hour consumption of about 15 amp hours for cabin
lights [ the at anchor ligts in the cabin, etc ] and the anchor light
together.

That isn't bad.

So,, my plan or thought is to get a solar panel but not attach it. Move it
around from place to place so it gets the sun. And,, only use it when it is
worthwhile. When the sun is shining.

Now the question .. where to store it? What else to use it for? The size
of the panel? About 25" by 25" for a 50 watt Kyocera panel.

That is a little over 2' x 2'.

If I sew a piece of Sunbrella up to make a cover, and have the panel in some
type of something that will allow me to take it out and set it up to get the
sunlight ..

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?

Say, Larry
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in news:OhwMh.4762$zN.1202
@trndny03:

Doesn't this make some sense?

What do you think and do you have any ideas?



The solar cell is like a brittle piece of thin glass. If it cracks, even
a tiny one, it's toast. So, they mount them in heavy frames and lose
some power with the protective glass or lexan covers, that absorb some of
the solar energy as it passes through.

Being fragile and the frames quite heavy, I doubt they'd take being
hauled up the mast over and over for very long and they are WAY too
expensive to frequently replace. I'm sure it's being done, though.....

I don't understand why we cannot produce a quite, SLOW TURNING, boat wind
genny. I agree these whirly-bird generators spin way too fast,
generating vibration and noise that radiate from the hull. Why they are
solidly mounted, with no sound deadening is probably about profit.

I see a great UNUSED solution, at the HOME anchorage:
http://www.otherpower.com/20page1.html
You put one of these on top of a piling that you tie the boat to. The
boat would be powered FROM THE PILIING, giving you an almost limitless
power supply at your anchorage, without all those naughty dock fees. Up
above where you tie the boat, like USCG does to the lighted day markers,
a platform with the large battery box and inverter provides the boat with
AC power and direct DC power for use and charging. Of course, this only
works at HOME. But, let's face it, the damned boats spend 90% of their
time at home, anyways. No noise in the boat, at all! These machines
turn very slowly their 3 blades and produce immense power at the wind in
any anchorage....up 30-40 feet off the water.

Why aren't the entrepreneurs renting you wind-powered anchorage pilings
in exotic places? One wind machine could supply many boats, anyplace.



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

On Mar 22, 3:22 pm, Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.

"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)


umm what about a thin film sola;r Errr top sail or something like
that?
2MT (trying out his vocab)

Say, Larry
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting on
Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of charging
current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very very quiet
(virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is really unique to
my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as streamlined as I can
make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't
know if or when it will be finished, but I'll post progress here if and when
it occurs.

Say, Larry
 

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 22, 3:22 pm, Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.

"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)


umm what about a thin film sola;r Errr top sail or something like
that?
2MT (trying out his vocab)


Essie's solar panels are US32's, flexible panels mounted directly to the
coachroof. You can walk on them and they can't break. Amorphous film, they
don't stop putting out current just because some cells are in shadow. Two of
these give me, theoretically, 64 watts at optimum sun exposure. In reality
much less, but they're better than nothing, and much better than fixing
large glass panels, IMO.

Say, Larry
 

KLC ,, when I was goofing, looking on the net for wind power for sailboats
...

I found some site that had a web link that showed how to make your own wind
generator for a sailboat.

It only cost about $300 dollars as I recall for the parts etc.

The big negative for me is the size of the blades. According to most of
what I read and looked at, the blades must be fairly large to produce much
of anything in power. One unit I looked at .. the blade was 46" long. That
is almost four feet.

The way I figure it, the bigger the boat, the less of a problem the wind
generator. On a 100' yacht, I doubt the crew even knows the thing is up
there. On a 32' boat, big difference.

================================
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting
on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of
charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very
very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is
really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as
streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining
optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be finished, but I'll
post progress here if and when it occurs.

Say, Larry
 

Yah, the advantage of VAWT's is that the rotate on a vertical axis and don't
necessarily use blades as such. They need to be kinda tall, but not wide.

"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:k2FMh.12829$FS5.12620@trndny09...
KLC ,, when I was goofing, looking on the net for wind power for sailboats
..

I found some site that had a web link that showed how to make your own
wind generator for a sailboat.

It only cost about $300 dollars as I recall for the parts etc.

The big negative for me is the size of the blades. According to most of
what I read and looked at, the blades must be fairly large to produce much
of anything in power. One unit I looked at .. the blade was 46" long.
That is almost four feet.

The way I figure it, the bigger the boat, the less of a problem the wind
generator. On a 100' yacht, I doubt the crew even knows the thing is up
there. On a 32' boat, big difference.

================================
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote in news:icqdnQzyBcVxL5
:

The reason I
don't add wind generating now is that with our recent cruising
pattern, we're often in crowded harbors where the noise would be
anti-social.


"Is my wind machine bothering you? Ok, I'll shut it down and crank the
diesel genset, instead. Waitaminute.".....(c;



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for mounting
on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10 amps of
charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should be very
very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it that is
really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself, which is as
streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while maintaining
optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be finished, but I'll
post progress here if and when it occurs.

Say, Larry
 

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for
mounting on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10
amps of charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should
be very very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it
that is really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself,
which is as streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while
maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be
finished, but I'll post progress here if and when it occurs.



The incredibly efficient and simple design of the permanent magnet,
multiphase alternators used by the mountain men on otherpower.com is well
suited to your purpose. A vertical axis turbine directly pulling the
magnets across those sealed coils just above the deck would work
fantastic, if you can keep the turbine from broaching over.

Here's a free patent you might be interested in looking at:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4274011.pdf

Of course, new boat technologies, like S/V "Revelation II" look
promising. This boat sails fastest STRAIGHT INTO THE WIND, something
sailors have longed for for centuries. It's direct drive, but I'd like
to see a more practical use of a large alternator driving high voltage
nanotechnology lithium-ion storage batteries like Toshiba has invented.
The power generated by this slow-turning beast is many kilowatts in even
small winds, I'd bet, not those little turbines boaters curse at. A
blade this large driving a simple PM multiphase alternator the mountain
men on otherpower.com, rectified and stored in Li-Ion quick charging
batteries would give you an immense living power both at anchor or at
sea, with the boat, instead of this direct drive, being powered by
traction motors, like drive electric cars/trains/buses/trucks. It would
be much more versatile than Revelation II....in any point of "sail".
Having power STORAGE in the batteries would also make a docking engine
unnecessary. The power storage would also drive her fore and aft
thrusters for parking...(c;....even if the wind were completely calm.

When you come alongside your homeport dock space, you plug the windmill
into the pedestal, forcing the local power company, under Federal Law, to
buy power FROM the boat, which should offset the dock fees to the point
of a small profit in windy months....(c; Not a bad side effect to an
electric powered boat, either.

Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

I'm working up plans for a VAWT (vertical axis wind turbine) for
mounting on Essie which should give (assuming all goes well) about 10
amps of charging current into the batteries turning at 120 rpm. Should
be very very quiet (virtually silent, actually). The only part of it
that is really unique to my own design is the wind turbine itself,
which is as streamlined as I can make it to reduce drag loss, while
maintaining optimum wind cupping. Don't know if or when it will be
finished, but I'll post progress here if and when it occurs.



The incredibly efficient and simple design of the permanent magnet,
multiphase alternators used by the mountain men on otherpower.com is well
suited to your purpose. A vertical axis turbine directly pulling the
magnets across those sealed coils just above the deck would work
fantastic, if you can keep the turbine from broaching over.

Yah, axial flux alternators are the only way to go. I'll use a 3 phase axial
flux, currently weighing the benefits of using Halbach Array magnets
(imitation monopoles) although they tend to be rather expensive. This, of
course, is offset by making iron backing plates redundant, so you eliminate
the expense and weight of them.

Say, Larry
 

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

This, of
course, is offset by making iron backing plates redundant, so you
eliminate the expense and weight of them.


The mountain boys use recycled car brake disc/bearing/mount for their
rotating machinery mounting. Quite cheaply, I suspect, and it works great.



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

Say, Larry
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

This, of
course, is offset by making iron backing plates redundant, so you
eliminate the expense and weight of them.


The mountain boys use recycled car brake disc/bearing/mount for their
rotating machinery mounting. Quite cheaply, I suspect, and it works
great.



Larry
--
Message for Comcrap Internet Customers:
http://tinyurl.com/3ayl9c
Unlimited Service my ass.....(d^:)

yeah, they do work great for land-based turbines. But they are very heavy
(especially for mounting on a mizzen mast or stern tower) and even though
they're relatively cheap in themselves, require both machining and constant
maintenance. I'm looking for light weight (most important) and low
maintenance.